Punk Hazard
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Uh-huh, it's easier to snidely call valid reasons that your one-dimensional viewpoint is garbage rather than actually tackle them. Whatever brings the snores at night.
[Predictions] One Piece Manga Chapter 848 Discussion and 849 Predictions
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Sanji fanboys - "Sanji can do no wrong. Everything Sanji does is perfect and we love him. Sanji is a genius. Sanji is making the best decisions left and right. Sanji is best girl."
Normal Sanji fans - "man, I hope Sanji gets his act together soon and starts being the Sanji we all know and love from previous arcs."
Know the difference.
Normal Sanji fans - "man, I hope Sanji gets his act together soon and starts being the Sanji we all know and love from previous arcs."
Know the difference.
Well I am a sanji fan just as much as a zoro fan never said either was perfect they are flawed and that makes them great sanji's decision to sacrifice himself for the people he cares about I really don't get how that is a bad idea when all the straw hats have done it. A real fan of a character knows who they are sanji thinking things through sees this as the best way to keep everyone alive why would I or any fan have a problem with that. Sanji is a beast when the wedding goes to hell and the fights break out I'm not gonna be surprised about what he's gonna do with no restrictions. It's like when luffy and zoro didn't fight back against Bellamy and took a beating I never said they should get their act together I know zoro or luffy could've murdered Bellamy in a heart beat. You all say sanji should've had more faith in the crew well sanji fans have faith in sanji and their problem is those who aren't a fan of his don't just have faith in him it's real easy.
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No one said his decisions were perfect and nothing he did was wrong. We said he had two shitty choices, and choose the one that is fundamentally better than the other.
Sanji, right now, IS making the best decisions relative to the ones that are feasible for him to make. What you're doing is using your perspective as a reader, a perspective Sanji can't have, to idealize the perfect response and perfect consequences, when it wouldn't work that way at all from the perspective of the characters experiencing the story as though it's reality.
Love how you all say this about Sanji, but mum's the word when Zoro's plans had the same traits you're all criticizing Sanji for.
@bold I can't wait for that to happen! I have no doubt that Oda is going to give Sanji some epic feats by the end of this arc.
In your opinion. Not all of us readers agree though..
Sanji was present during Water 7 and Enies Lobby right?
@bold You can't include me in this.. idek what you're talking about.. I didn't mention Zoro in my posts but if you want my opinion I can give it.. I won't ask you to rewrite your words on which plan you're referring to in your comparison.. but if you want to tell me what page your original post about it is on, I'll go back and read it and respond to it.
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This doesn't invalidate a single thing I said. I get what you're saying is your opinion. Everything people say here is an opinion. Are you gonna reply next saying "But that's just my post on NarutoBase?"
The situations aren't comparable. The threat on Zeff's life and the fact that the top tiers of the Emperors are hunting them separates this scenario from Enies Lobby, where they had to deal with a small batch of people that were serious threats.
I'm talking about the group of people that were criticizing Sanji in general. You didn't say you posted in support of Zoro, but you also didn't post criticizing Zoro for giving the same rhetoric that drove Sanji's decisions, so yes, you are included in the group of people who criticized Sanji but are silent about Zoro doing the same thing.
Tell me, do you respect Zoro less like you do Sanji because, like Sanji, he also expected Luffy to abandon his nakama to avoid dealing with two Emperors?
Yes it does invalidate what you said.. cause you said Sanji made the "best" decisions.. but that's your opinion.. not a fact. So boom. Invalidated.
Hmmm... so now you're saying Yonko > WG ?
Okay cool.. good to know..
What? Are you talking about what Zoro said on Zou? Do I respect him less for that? Of course not. That's VERY usual behavior for both him and Sanji to act like they don't give a f*ck about each other.. notice how Zoro didn't disagree when Luffy said "oh you're worried about Sanji aren't you" or something along those lines.. at the end of the day Zoro and Sanji do care about each other. But it is usual and common for them to act like they dont.. nothing out of the ordinary there..
What IS out of the ordinary though, is how Sanji has been this whole arc.. when it comes to his mind frame on Luffy especially.. he isn't being his normal intelligent self.. which is weird.. and it's even causing fans to theorize on him being hypnotized by Puddings third eye.. lol
Only a few fans are agreeing with Sanji's behavior during this arc.. and the majority of them are just fanboys who won't say anything bad about Sanji no matter what happens.
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Wew. This man really thinks "That's your opinion"="Invalid."
Nope. But the upper members of the WG aren't actively pursuing Luffy. The only person that's actively pursuing him is Smoker. And while Fujitora was ordered to, generally, the top people in the World Government are, at this point, just generally waiting to run into Luffy upon which time they'll apprehend him. It's not like the Admirals, Kong, Gorosei, or Akainu are out ACTIVELY looking for Luffy.
The two Emperors are, at the moment however, bigger threats in this regard because the captains and their immediately lower ranking commanders ARE at the point where they would actively pursue Luffy themselves. If the World Government decided they would make their priority decision to send their top guys after Luffy, they'd be a bigger threat.
Yup, that's what I thought.
Zoro demands that Luffy abandon Sanji because they don't have the power to deal with two Emperors, no respect lost.
Sanji expects Luffy to abandon him because they don't have the power to deal with two Emperors and Zeff isn't at a point of his life that he should be running from assassins every day, Sanji doesn't understand Luffy's character and is less worthy of respect.
Bias is bias is bias.
That's why it's called sacrifice. He's being forced to make decisions that he doesn't want to make. And this just shows your bias and hypocrisy even more.
Zoro expects Luffy to abandon a nakama, nothing is wrong. Sanji expects Luffy to abandon a nakama, his outlook on Luffy is out of the ordinary.
Nice appeal to the people fallacy.
Itachi Minato
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But zoro acting like that fits in to his character. I would be more shocked if he said yh let's go save Sanji. Zoro also supported leaving Nami and Ussop behind. If Sanji and zoro swapped positions I wouldn't criticise sanji for saying leave him. Also zoro is not as intelligent as sanji he probably would have done something worse than sanji but because we already know he's not exactly smart he would get less criticised for it. I'll answer the earlier point you made later on the phone it's hard to type.
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This means nothing. If expecting your captain to leave a friend behind means you don't know him, and that means you deserve less respect as a character, then it applies to every member of the crew, regardless of if you expect it or not.
What you're basically saying is "This is a shitty character trait, and if you have it, you're a shitty character. Zoro isn't a shitty character for having it though, because I expect that shitty character trait." That's not how it works at all.
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Itachi Minato
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I do not for one second believe that Zoro actually expected Luffy to leave Sanji behind. He suggested it which is not out of character for him. You basically want me to criticise Zoro for acting like Zoro. You want me to criticise Luffy when he is being a idiot, when Ussop is acting like a coward? Do you see me criticise Sanji when he acts like a moron around girls and has nosebleeds? You wont because I don't. Also, so you think Luffy should just leave Sanji behind? Since theres nothing Luffy can do, hes not on BM level and would get absolutely destroyed he should just walk away and leave Sanji?
Certain Sanji fans are so insecure they have to bring Zoro up. Notice the word certain because I count myself as a Sanji fan. It is because I like him that I am annoyed.
Regardless if you believe zoro expected luffy to abandon sanji he strongly pushed for it and he meant it you defend that by saying that it is part of his character, but then go on to criticize sanji for sacrificing him self for the crew which has always been apart of his character. They both asked luffy to do something that luffy would never do in yet only sanji is criticized. You say it is insecurity in sanji fans that make them bring up zoro no because they are linked in so many ways and share so many character traits, but you are heavily mistaken I would deem myself just as much a zoro fan then I am a sanji fan and I have seen both sides of this spectrum zoro fans have the insecurities as soon as a topic arises in which zoro and sanji are involved it becomes a sanji bashing on how he is inferior to zoro and becomes a power gauging between the two. For example the topic of could either break crackers armor instantly it became how weak and terrible sanji is compared to zoro although neither had any feats against a fighter of crackers caliber to say they could but of course sanji had no chance where as zoro could. With all do respect fans around the world have known zoro fans to be the most delusional and outrageous people if you don't share their ridiculous godly view of him you deemed a hater of zoro and any character is compared to zoro it's deemed as an insult or attack on their god lol. so you might wanna be factual when you start throwing out false accusations like that.
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WoldOfFingo
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Do people really take Zoro's comment serious?... That's just Zoro being Zoro, he isn't exactly the type of person to convey his feelings easily, he also said Usopp had to apoligize but at the same time he was all sulking and hoping probably feeling guilty and waiting for him to show up. Same with Sanji , he doesn't want Sanji gone, they are like brothers and would die for one another...Readers who take that comment seriously must have like absolutely no reading comprehension and can't understand the bond the Sh's have after almost 20 years...Dear Lord..
Itachi Minato
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I am not criticising Sanji because he is trying to save the crew. I am criticising him because he does not realise that he still will not be able to save his crew with the decision he has made. There is no doubt that he is in a really bad spot but he should be thinking about ways of getting out of this mess. For example, he can easily ask pudding to get in contact with Luffy and tell him the situation. The SH have been apart for two years plus Sanji missed a lot of dressrosa. He does not know that Luffy has allies that he can send to east blue. Also, by at least letting Luffy know whats happening he will also prevent Luffy from doing something really stupid ( Its Luffy come on hes going to do it). I know this is a long shot but its worth a try no? Instead of just accepting it?
@ Bold. Zoro is one of the most overrated characters in the serious and a lot of his fans are fanboys. I have seen that thread and do find it amusing that certain people believe Zoro would break crackers armour or possibly defeat him but fighting stuff has always taken a back seat for me. I don't care about feats and that crap. Its the story and characters that I read this manga for and it is in this that I have found what is in my opinion a fault in Sanji and said it. Overall Sanji is a better character in my opinion anyway. And I did not throw false accusations I did say to note the word CERTAIN.
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Cut the bullshit my dude. If you find a character trait or action negative enough to respect a character less for it, then either that applies to every character with it, or you're a hypocrite. Just because you expect a character to exhibit that trait or action doesn't change that.
If you say "I don't like Blackbeard because he's a coward, cowardice makes me respect him less," and then you say "I don't respect Usopp less for being a coward because I expect him to be a coward," then you're just being a hypocrite and/or fanboy.
[video=youtube;6JUQCyx58Ik]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JUQCyx58Ik[/video]
You're missing the point hard. I brought up what Zoro said because there are people in this thread like Toshi and LBeezy who said that they respect Sanji less because he actually expects Luffy to leave him behind, but don't respect Zoro less even though he expected the exact same thing when he demanded that Luffy leave Sanji to act on his own.
Maybe. I know that, because this is a story, Luffy and the others won't die either way. But because the characters don't have this perspective, we can't apply to what decisions they should make which is the mistake everyone here is making.
Not insecurity when it's relevant to the conversation.
What part of this looks like he was joking? You're absolutely grasping at straws if you try to play this off as a gag moment. Zoro might not want them to abandon Sanji, but this was a serious demand through and through. Nothing about this was played for laughs.
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None of the reasons Zoro even gives boil back to his disdain for Sanji. He justifies leaving Sanji behind by mentioning the Emperors that are on their tail several times, and never once because "it's the shitty cook" or some other petty reason. This was a 100% serious moment, the only thing here that was "jokey" was their faces.
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Fair enough what your saying is true but sanji is thinking of a way of getting out this and the only way is for him to give himself up that's why he went to speak with big mom and try and negotiate with her and she gave her word that if all goes well should would let his crew go free and zeff would be safe, and be able to leave whole cake island with their lives even if it's by force they would still leave with their lives. In this situation negotiation was the better choice instead of trying to war with big mom on her territory even luffy tried to sneak in to whole cake by himself with pekoms he didn't want a war right now. Also luffy has alleys but luffy doesn't control them he didn't even want the fleet he values them friends not his subordinates he wouldn't ask anyone to stay in east blue and give up their adventures to protect someone. And my apologies false accusations was a poor way of stating things
Itachi Minato
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Actually I can and everybody does. You do not judge the decisions that Sanji and Zoro make the same. If Zoro decided not to fight against a women because it is a women I would think less of him. Wouldn't think any less of Sanji. Same thing with the nose bleeds
If Zoro thought that Luffy would actually leave Sanji behind then he is an idiot. Happy? Also, Zoro never meant to leave him permanently anyway. He probably meant lets deal with Kaidou and then we will handle Sanji. Sanji is talking about having to leave permanently. I also don't think Zoro actually expected Luffy to do it. He was giving his opinion.
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