Kakuzu vs Kisame

[Zexion~]

Smaller version of what?

His combination, nowhere near the size of it used later on when it was larger than Bijju sized trees

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not even at its full scale.

 

[ToshiZO]

If its a question of size, there is no issue here. Kakuzu's elements can compete with size, a good chunk of that water Kisame creates gets overpowered by the fire wind combo which can level an entire forest making massive trees look small [

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] [

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].

That wave Kisame was riding [

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]is hardly half way up those trees, and katon zukokku is widespread and starts from the floor so the water at the bottom gets sweeped as well. Granted that's with 30% chakra, but anything more than that and you might as well make it WD.

 

[EZQ]

@Zex: forgot about that

@Toshizo: I meant that if Kisame can spit an ocean, then if he tries the same jutsu Kakashi did, it'd be a lot weaker

 

[NarutoX28]

I'm going to get hated for this, but I tend to view them as rivals given that Kisame doesn't have an advantageous location. I can see both sides rather clearly and most who tend to gravitate towards Kisame neglect the fact that majority of characters within the manga haven't displayed their entire repertoire of ninjutsu. Kakuzu would fall under that category mostly because it's inconceivable for Kakuzu, who possesses compatibility in every ninjutsu and eclipses Kakashi in elemental ninjutsu would only have access to one jutsu per element.

Feats certainly are a thing, but through portrayal and logical deduction, it makes no sense why Kakuzu would be deprived of diversity in his ninjutsu given that inferior shinobi have used multiple techinques within a specific element in the manga and it was explicitly shown that even inept fighters could learn doton manipulation relatively easily. Given that, Kakuzu should possess a variety of defenses in Doton, capable of resisting majority of Kakuzu's Suiton due to Doton being the advantageous element.

Additionally, I'm honestly baffled about how people are comparing the scope of both fighter's techniques to deduce why Kisame's ninjutsu is superior when superb ninja such as Kakuzu have the ability to manipulate the area of their attack with Shape Manipulation, one of the core aspects of chakra control and Kishimoto's conception of the manga has evolved with the magnitude of techniques having to escalate substantially as presented in the War Arc with Fodder erecting Doton Walls that are absurdly large in comparison to what's presented in the Immortals Arc. Because of that, it's unfair to compare Kakuzu's Ninjutsu to Kisame's when Kisame had the opportunity to succumb that level of power escalation while Kakuzu didn't and hardly displayed any screen-time when he did.

That said, I can see both fighters winning because they have rivaled strength, but I gravitate towards Kakuzu more often than not considering Kakuzu possesses the advantage through Doton while he can perform both offensive and defensive techniques simultaneously through his Masks.

 

[Zexion~]

I'm going to get hated for this, but I tend to view them as rivals given that Kisame doesn't have an advantageous location. I can see both sides rather clearly and most who tend to gravitate towards Kisame neglect the fact that majority of characters within the manga haven't displayed their entire repertoire of ninjutsu. Kakuzu would fall under that category mostly because it's inconceivable for Kakuzu, who possesses compatibility in every ninjutsu and eclipses Kakashi in elemental ninjutsu would only have access to one jutsu per element.

Feats certainly are a thing, but through portrayal and logical deduction, it makes no sense why Kakuzu would be deprived of diversity in his ninjutsu given that inferior shinobi have used multiple techinques within a specific element in the manga and it was explicitly shown that even inept fighters could learn doton manipulation relatively easily. Given that, Kakuzu should possess a variety of defenses in Doton, capable of resisting majority of Kakuzu's Suiton due to Doton being the advantageous element.

Additionally, I'm honestly baffled about how people are comparing the scope of both fighter's techniques to deduce why Kisame's ninjutsu is superior when superb ninja such as Kakuzu have the ability to manipulate the area of their attack with Shape Manipulation, one of the core aspects of chakra control and Kishimoto's conception of the manga has evolved with the magnitude of techniques having to escalate substantially as presented in the War Arc with Fodder erecting Doton Walls that are absurdly large in comparison to what's presented in the Immortals Arc. Because of that, it's unfair to compare Kakuzu's Ninjutsu to Kisame's when Kisame had the opportunity to succumb that level of power escalation while Kakuzu didn't and hardly displayed any screen-time when he did.

That said, I can see both fighters winning because they have rivaled strength, but I gravitate towards Kakuzu more often than not considering Kakuzu possesses the advantage through Doton while he can perform both offensive and defensive techniques simultaneously through his Masks.

I like you.

That being said, hype is hype its like giving Kakashi the 1000 jutsu he should have copied and what not all we can do is blame Kishi for giving us such a potentially diverse character and showing us so little. That being said Doton is still countered by Samehada and while I have always seen them as rivals Kisame should win more than not. Kakusu has shown differences with shape manipulation however making something as large as WD or Kisame's suitons would need Kisame like chakra which while Kakuzu's stamina is impressive its not that high.

 

[RedRobin]

Samehada is not absorbing domu. He would need to be holding on to Kakuzu to absorb the chakra. But getting close to do that would be dangerous for Kisame.

 

[NarutoX28]

I like you.

That being said, hype is hype its like giving Kakashi the 1000 jutsu he should have copied and what not all we can do is blame Kishi for giving us such a potentially diverse character and showing us so little. That being said Doton is still countered by Samehada and while I have always seen them as rivals Kisame should win more than not. Kakusu has shown differences with shape manipulation however making something as large as WD or Kisame's suitons would need Kisame like chakra which while Kakuzu's stamina is impressive its not that high.

Well, Kakuzu can muster defenses that isn't infused by any chakra by increasing the volume of the Earth such as the case with Yamato's Doton Doryuu Jouheki, but even then, majority of his Doton would be used as a defensive countermeasure for Kisame's Suiton.

That said, my inference on Kakuzu having more diversity isn't hype. Hype would be the equivalent of Kinkaku and Ginkaku being god-like due to being Pseudo Jins of the Strongest of the Nine Bijuu, possessing Rikudou's Tools, and beating Nidaime Raikage and Nidaime Hokage half to death. That's hype because it's an exaggerated presumption that doesn't reflect their overall combat ability. My premise on Kakuzu having greater diversity stems from deductive reasoning because there's absolutely no exaggeration about Kakuzu possessing more abilities than he displayed on panel because even more inept shinobi have displayed a wide array of jutsu.

 

[ToshiZO]

I'm going to get hated for this, but I tend to view them as rivals given that Kisame doesn't have an advantageous location. I can see both sides rather clearly and most who tend to gravitate towards Kisame neglect the fact that majority of characters within the manga haven't displayed their entire repertoire of ninjutsu. Kakuzu would fall under that category mostly because it's inconceivable for Kakuzu, who possesses compatibility in every ninjutsu and eclipses Kakashi in elemental ninjutsu would only have access to one jutsu per element.

Feats certainly are a thing, but through portrayal and logical deduction, it makes no sense why Kakuzu would be deprived of diversity in his ninjutsu given that inferior shinobi have used multiple techinques within a specific element in the manga and it was explicitly shown that even inept fighters could learn doton manipulation relatively easily. Given that, Kakuzu should possess a variety of defenses in Doton, capable of resisting majority of Kakuzu's Suiton due to Doton being the advantageous element.

Additionally, I'm honestly baffled about how people are comparing the scope of both fighter's techniques to deduce why Kisame's ninjutsu is superior when superb ninja such as Kakuzu have the ability to manipulate the area of their attack with Shape Manipulation, one of the core aspects of chakra control and Kishimoto's conception of the manga has evolved with the magnitude of techniques having to escalate substantially as presented in the War Arc with Fodder erecting Doton Walls that are absurdly large in comparison to what's presented in the Immortals Arc. Because of that, it's unfair to compare Kakuzu's Ninjutsu to Kisame's when Kisame had the opportunity to succumb that level of power escalation while Kakuzu didn't and hardly displayed any screen-time when he did.

That said, I can see both fighters winning because they have rivaled strength, but I gravitate towards Kakuzu more often than not considering Kakuzu possesses the advantage through Doton while he can perform both offensive and defensive techniques simultaneously through his Masks.

I've always said this regarding the 3 middle Akatsuki members.

Portrayal = Sasori, he has the best portrayal of the 3. I'm sure if a fight occurred in the manga he'd be favored.

Feats = Kisame, not by a landslide but it's there.

Portrayal + Feats = Kakuzu. His portrayal > Kisame, his feats > Sasori.

 

[NarutoX28]

I've always said this regarding the 3 middle Akatsuki members.

Portrayal = Sasori, he has the best portrayal of the 3. I'm sure if a fight occurred in the manga he'd be favored.

Feats = Kisame, not by a landslide but it's there.

Portrayal + Feats = Kakuzu. His portrayal > Kisame, his feats > Sasori.

Yeah, that sounds good. My only problem with Feats is under this scenario where we're comparing feats from two entirely different time periods with Kishimoto's artistic choices changing drastically as time continued. Kisame's feats look more stunning than Kakuzu's from a superficial standpoint, but when we take into account that

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, it's only reasonable that Kakuzu's feats would be up-scaled as a result or else we'd be invalidating Kakuzu's portrayal.

 

[ToshiZO]

Yeah, that sounds good. My only problem with Feats is under this scenario where we're comparing feats from two entirely different time periods with Kishimoto's artistic choices changing drastically as time continued. Kisame's feats look more stunning than Kakuzu's from a superficial standpoint, but when we take into account that

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, it's only reasonable that Kakuzu's feats would be up-scaled as a result or else we'd be invalidating Kakuzu's portrayal.

You have point there but even for the time he showed his feats, the scale of his jutsu hold up quite well.

Though as proof of your point in the feats department it is correlated in a positive linear pattern with who remained the longest (Sasori < Kakuzu < Kisame).

Still I was isolating feats from portrayal there, feats are still feats, can't really do anything about that when looking at them alone.

 

[Avenge1]

Kisame eats all his chakra

 

[Zexion~]

I've always said this regarding the 3 middle Akatsuki members.

Portrayal = Sasori, he has the best portrayal of the 3. I'm sure if a fight occurred in the manga he'd be favored.

Feats = Kisame, not by a landslide but it's there.

Portrayal + Feats = Kakuzu. His portrayal > Kisame, his feats > Sasori.

How was Sasori portrayed to be the strongest? He did nothing in the manga.

Kakuzu took out Jin's a temple of monks and Asuma's squad before pretty much taking out team ten and Kakashi as well :lol not to mention back in the day fighting the first hokage and surviving was hype.

Yeah, that sounds good. My only problem with Feats is under this scenario where we're comparing feats from two entirely different time periods with Kishimoto's artistic choices changing drastically as time continued. Kisame's feats look more stunning than Kakuzu's from a superficial standpoint, but when we take into account that

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, it's only reasonable that Kakuzu's feats would be up-scaled as a result or else we'd be invalidating Kakuzu's portrayal.

Or if Kishi decided to make the Akatsuki more than one-arc characters.

 

[ToshiZO]

Sasori:
-Had the strongest Sand shinobi in history as his plaything.
-He made someone as strong as Deidara outright admit inferiority.
-Took down a small nation by himself.
-Orochimaru and Kabuto devised a plan to take him out, because fighting him armless would be trouble despite Orochimaru handling 4Tails like he did.

Though it's not by a landslide, like I said Kakuzu is balanced in the portrayal and feats department.

 

[EZQ]

The med tier of the akatsuki for me is Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori. Kisame is in the high tier with Itachi and Pain imo, ofc being the weakest of the tier.

High tier

Obito, Pain, Itachi and Kisame

Med tier

Akatsuki Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori

Low tier

Hidan, Konan and zetsu

 

[ToshiZO]

Kisame's portrayal pales in comparison to the high tiers of akatsuki heck it pales in comparison to Orochimaru, who himself pales in comparison to Itachi.

Not to mention even featwise he doesn't belong there. So there really isn't a good argument for Kisame being an akatsuki high tier.

Thing that separates the akatsuki's top fighters is that there is a clear distinction between them and the rest. There is literally no argument to be made for them losing to anyone but themselves. And it's no coincidence those 3 are the ones with either an MS or a Rinnegan.

Kisame not only loses to all 3 of them, but he loses to Deidara, and can lose to Sasori as well. There is room for debate in Kisame vs Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu. There is really no room for debate for Kisame vs Pain/ Obito / Itachi.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Samehada is not absorbing domu. He would need to be holding on to Kakuzu to absorb the chakra. But getting close to do that would be dangerous for Kisame.

What danger would he be in honestly? All his elements gets absorbed. GSB absorbs his elements and the chakra out of his skin rendering Domu useless so Kakuzu gets blown down.

 

[EZQ]

Kisame's portrayal pales in comparison to the high tiers of akatsuki heck it pales in comparison to Orochimaru, who himself pales in comparison to Itachi.

Not to mention even featwise he doesn't belong there. So there really isn't a good argument for Kisame being an akatsuki high tier.

He's definitely above the ones in the med tier. That's why i said he's the weakest of the high tier

 

[ToshiZO]

He's definitely above the ones in the med tier. That's why i said he's the weakest of the high tier

Read my edit.

 

[Dying Soldier]

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[Byakuren]

The med tier of the akatsuki for me is Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori. Kisame is in the high tier with Itachi and Pain imo, ofc being the weakest of the tier.

High tier

Obito, Pain, and Itachi

Mid tier

Akatsuki Orochimaru, Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori

Low tier

Hidan, Konan and zetsu

High tier Obito, Pain, and Itachi Med tier Akatsuki Orochimaru, Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori Low tier Hidan, Konan and zetsu There will only ever be three top tiers, and low tiers. The rest will always be in the mid tier. Kisame is no exception.

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