[VS] Current Zoro vs. Prime ace

[arv993]

again:
Luffy got fodderised by a clone Mingo at the start of the fight... So a brief encounter like that inconclusive. AS I SAID: you are suffering from fanboy logic though because:

* Shanks stops Akainu's high power Luffy plus Jinbei killing attack with ease while looking at Sengoku... your take on it: It doesn't show difference in their powers ...

* Fuji creates a gravity vortex intense while Zoro escapes it and land on knee stance(which doesn't indicate if it's all exhuastion blame or simply a stylish landing with a simple out breath)... your take on it: "That's a clear indicator of the difference in their power."

Lol idk how anyone can call that a straight up loss.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Is that all you have to say that Zoro may not be able to cut Aokiji's ice? Didn't Zoro destroy ice spikes at PH?

I don't remember if he did or didn't, he probably did.

However, how hard the ice is isn't the only thing that matters. How strong the actual technique is, how much force is behind it, that matters too. I have no way of knowing if Zoro is capable of matching or overpowering the force behind Pheasant Beak because we haven't had a good measure of that technique's power or force yet.

again:
Luffy got fodderised by a clone Mingo at the start of the fight... So a brief encounter like that inconclusive. AS I SAID: you are suffering from fanboy logic though because:

* Shanks stops Akainu's high power Luffy plus Jinbei killing attack with ease while looking at Sengoku... your take on it: It doesn't show difference in their powers ...

This isn't the same thing as what happened between Fujitora and Zoro though. When Shanks clashed with Akainu, they were dead even. You don't know that it was easy for Shanks(he was using Haki, after all), and the attack was meant for Coby, which makes it unlikely that Akainu was packing serious power into it, unless you think Akainu would exert himself for what is relatively fodder, and for a Yonko.

The key difference is that in one, it ended dead even, and in the other, one person was completely overwhelmed. The two situations aren't at all comparable.

* Fuji creates a gravity vortex intense while Zoro escapes it and land on knee stance(which doesn't indicate if it's all exhuastion blame or simply a stylish landing with a simple out breath)... your take on it: "That's a clear indicator of the difference in their power."

@Bold: You're reaching. "Stylish landing" is just an excuse. And being "simply out of breath" isn't at all "simply." If one attack from an Admiral that is quantifiably weaker than most of his other attacks leaves Zoro out of breath whatsoever, then it shows a gulf in power with what we've seen from Zoro.

And I say "from what we've seen" for a reason. Is it possible for Zoro to be able to perform better than he did? Yeah. In fact, I think that he can. I think if he was, for example, using Asura, he'd have faired a lot better against that attack. But the key word there is "think." I can't go on what I THINK Zoro will show in the future. That's a fallacy that easily approaches the no-limits fallacy. I can only go with what I KNOW. And what I KNOW is what we were shown. And what we were shown is that contending with Fujitora's attack left Zoro out of breath. We can theorize and make hypothetical scenarios about what Zoro could and will do, but those are useless in a debate.

I'm with ya, I'd love nothing more than for people to acknowledge it only makes sense Ace had armament haki but people are gonna refuse because he never hit a Logia and he didn't stop damage that haki could have.

As illogical as it is, there's no evidence to support otherwise. It makes no sense to me why he wouldn't even have the basics of it but Oda decided not to show him with it.

This ties into what I said above. We can THINK that Ace had Armament Haki and used it all we want, but that's useless in a debate. The only things that actually carry weight in a debate are what we know. And we don't know that Ace can use Armament.

"There's no evidence to support Ace doesn't have Armament." This isn't true. It's the exact opposite of what's true. There's zero evidence that Ace had any degree of utilization of Armament Haki. There IS evidence, however, that points towards Ace not having it.

The most damning is that Ace didn't use Haki against a Logia(Blackbeard) even when he knew they were a Logia. People say he was "testing out Teach's power," but Ace has never been shown to be a person who cares about shit like that to actually do it.

Then there's the fact that Logias like Caesar and Monet were able to survive long periods of time as pirates in the New World despite not having Armament. That defeats the argument that Ace would need Armament Haki to survive being a pirate in the New World.

Then there's the fact that Whitebeard pirates have shown very proficient teamwork. That supports Ace not using/needing Armament Haki even further, since if he ever encountered an enemy that would warrant Busoshoku Haki, he could just let another crewmate who has it handle them.

Does it make sense for Ace to have Armament? Yeah. Is there evidence that he did? No. Is there evidence that suggests it makes sense he didn't have it? Yes. You can theorize and think that Ace had Armament till the sun burns out, I also think if we saw battles of Ace post-skip, we'd see Armament, but until it's actually shown or confirmed, it means nothing in a debate.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

As of right now I'd favour Ace. Luffy has yet to surpass Ace's bounty himself, which probably holds some significance, Luffy is also a year younger right now than Ace was at the time of his death.

They both should have equal growth rate too (Pirate King's son, and Most Wanted man's son) and while Luffy was under the tutelage of the Dark King, Ace was under the WSM and his crew.

So It's not even a foregone conclusion that Luffy is > Ace.

You also have the fact that a really young Ace was on par with Jimbei who by all means was much older in his pirating life, thus the Jimbei that fought Ace and the Jimbei we see today shouldn't be worlds apart. Jimbei is at worst stronger than Sanji or M3 level, and Ace is significantly stronger than him because of his growth rate.

this not to mention they fought for 5 days straight so with that being said full power ace is no slouch and is infact a stamina beast

 

[chopstickchakra]

I don't remember if he did or didn't, he probably did.

However, how hard the ice is isn't the only thing that matters. How strong the actual technique is, how much force is behind it, that matters too. I have no way of knowing if Zoro is capable of matching or overpowering the force behind Pheasant Beak because we haven't had a good measure of that technique's power or force yet.



This isn't the same thing as what happened between Fujitora and Zoro though. When Shanks clashed with Akainu, they were dead even. You don't know that it was easy for Shanks(he was using Haki, after all), and the attack was meant for Coby, which makes it unlikely that Akainu was packing serious power into it, unless you think Akainu would exert himself for what is relatively fodder, and for a Yonko.

The key difference is that in one, it ended dead even, and in the other, one person was completely overwhelmed. The two situations aren't at all comparable.



@Bold: You're reaching. "Stylish landing" is just an excuse. And being "simply out of breath" isn't at all "simply." If one attack from an Admiral that is quantifiably weaker than most of his other attacks leaves Zoro out of breath whatsoever, then it shows a gulf in power with what we've seen from Zoro.

And I say "from what we've seen" for a reason. Is it possible for Zoro to be able to perform better than he did? Yeah. In fact, I think that he can. I think if he was, for example, using Asura, he'd have faired a lot better against that attack. But the key word there is "think." I can't go on what I THINK Zoro will show in the future. That's a fallacy that easily approaches the no-limits fallacy. I can only go with what I KNOW. And what I KNOW is what we were shown. And what we were shown is that contending with Fujitora's attack left Zoro out of breath. We can theorize and make hypothetical scenarios about what Zoro could and will do, but those are useless in a debate.





This ties into what I said above. We can THINK that Ace had Armament Haki and used it all we want, but that's useless in a debate. The only things that actually carry weight in a debate are what we know. And we don't know that Ace can use Armament.

"There's no evidence to support Ace doesn't have Armament." This isn't true. It's the exact opposite of what's true. There's zero evidence that Ace had any degree of utilization of Armament Haki. There IS evidence, however, that points towards Ace not having it.

The most damning is that Ace didn't use Haki against a Logia(Blackbeard) even when he knew they were a Logia. People say he was "testing out Teach's power," but Ace has never been shown to be a person who cares about shit like that to actually do it.

Then there's the fact that Logias like Caesar and Monet were able to survive long periods of time as pirates in the New World despite not having Armament. That defeats the argument that Ace would need Armament Haki to survive being a pirate in the New World.

Then there's the fact that Whitebeard pirates have shown very proficient teamwork. That supports Ace not using/needing Armament Haki even further, since if he ever encountered an enemy that would warrant Busoshoku Haki, he could just let another crewmate who has it handle them.

Does it make sense for Ace to have Armament? Yeah. Is there evidence that he did? No. Is there evidence that suggests it makes sense he didn't have it? Yes. You can theorize and think that Ace had Armament till the sun burns out, I also think if we saw battles of Ace post-skip, we'd see Armament, but until it's actually shown or confirmed, it means nothing in a debate.

I knew you'd be around eventually, you love to point out how Ace wasn't ever given a haki moment. I already acknowledged that back in my first post.

I didn't say "There's no evidence to support Ace doesn't have Armament." In that quote I was saying to Olorin that there's no evidence to support him having Armament Haki because there's no evidence of him using it. There is evidence to suggest Ace should have been given haki though.

It doesn't defeat it because neither of them were pirating in the same manner Ace was, they were scientists staying in their lab researching they weren't encountering many opponents. Also they were protected as long as we know where as Ace went out on his own with his own crew and reached the NW where he started trying to kill WB so for a period Ace was in fact in the NW without WB's protection.(Thinking back it may have been in the GL when Ace met WB but I think it said it was in NW I'll need to verify)

Again that's not really proof against but an assumption, Ace was a division commander so unless a situation was bad enough that it called for multiple divisions to handle it Ace was typically the big wig in those instances. It'd be even weirder if he called on one of his subordinates to use Haki as situation would dictate.

As much evidence as there is to suggest it makes sense he didn't have it, there's a comparable amount suggesting he should;

The biggest - WB was grooming him to be the next PK and placed him as a commander, why wouldn't he have taught him even the basics of haki? It wouldn't make sense for WB to leave that lesson out especially w/ Ace being Logia.

The NW argument isn't shut down just because of Monet and Caesar as I mentioned above

He was always portrayed to be superior to Luffy and Sabo both of whom have haki now and he set out 3 years prior, simple time flow and logic would imply he should have learned it before 20.

Shichibukai should have Arm. haki right even though I know Croc and Moriah didn't show it, for a pirate of that level to not have it would be illogical right? Ace was asked to join the shichibukai before joining WB's crew.

As a fire man he was somehow able to survive jinbe's water based attacks and keep fighting for 5 days. I can't imagine that'd have been an easy or even doable feat without some kind of defense besides intangibility(which Jinbe can bypass)

These are all reasons as to why Ace should have been depicted with arm. haki. It doesn't change the fact that he wasn't but it makes the fact that he wasn't seem wrong.

 

[Luther]

I think zoro takes this, mid difficulty.

 

[Wrappering_]

Can Roro counter Ace's entei? Probably not, so, I'd say Ace Mid to Low Diff.

 

[A v i]

I don't remember if he did or didn't, he probably did.

However, how hard the ice is isn't the only thing that matters. How strong the actual technique is, how much force is behind it, that matters too. I have no way of knowing if Zoro is capable of matching or overpowering the force behind Pheasant Beak because we haven't had a good measure of that technique's power or force yet.

If you don't know how well the attack could fare against Zoro. How can you be sure about Ace receiving better portrayal? For all we know the attack can be anywhere b/w something that gets scattered into pieces by an unnamed one sword slash and an attack that can overwhelm Zoro. How can you bet on Ace with such a confidence?

 

[Punk Hazard]

If you don't know how well the attack could fare against Zoro. How can you be sure about Ace receiving better portrayal? For all we know the attack can be anywhere b/w something that gets scattered into pieces by an unnamed one sword slash and an attack that can overwhelm Zoro. How can you bet on Ace with such a confidence?

Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has.

 

[HashiraMadara]

Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has.

Admiral attack suppresses an enemy into the ground as long as the admiral wants, enemy broke free of it(counters it), Admiral calls him Rough...
Riker: "Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has."

... waiting

 

[A v i]

I don't understand what Oda is planning to do with Zoro, the way things are going right now, it is hard to imagine a scenario where Zoro will be forced to go all out before the war with Kaido. So his next big fight will be with a Yonko top commander level fighter. For that, Zoro should already be at a level where he can compete with top commanders. Has Zoro really gotten that strong? or Will he be having another big fight before finally butting heads with a top commander?

Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has.

Pre skip Zoro stopped "Ice saber" from Aokiji, he did it way more easier than Ace. And Zoro didn't necessarily lost in a clash, he was attacked out of nowhere by a marine freaking admiral and he successfully succeeded in getting himself out of the admirals attack. You see, we've seen admirals getting attacked by surprise attacks and even receiving minor injuries from the people much weaker than themselves. Zoro, on the other hand was assaulted by a much stronger opponent than himself, despite that, he forced Fujitora to release his attack. That's clearly more impressive than what Ace had done.

 

[arv993]

Admiral attack suppresses an enemy into the ground as long as the admiral wants, enemy broke free of it(counters it), Admiral calls him Rough...
Riker: "Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has."

... waiting

This is what ppl call selective reading or in other words fanboy logic. Zoros portrayal in that scene was pretty good can't be in any way called a loss.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Admiral attack suppresses an enemy into the ground as long as the admiral wants, enemy broke free of it(counters it), Admiral calls him Rough...
Riker: "Because I can't go on what I think, I can only go on what I know. And what I know, is that Zoro has never countered an Admiral's attack as well as Ace has."

... waiting

Fujitora didn't call him rough, he said his flying slash was violent.

And no, Zoro hasn't. We've seen Ace counter Aokiji with no further detriment to himself, neutralizing the attack completely. Zoro's counter to Fujitora was nowhere near as clean and even-handed as that.

Pre skip Zoro stopped "Ice saber" from Aokiji, he did it way more easier than Ace. And Zoro didn't necessarily lost in a clash, he was attacked out of nowhere by a marine freaking admiral and he successfully succeeded in getting himself out of the admirals attack. You see, we've seen admirals getting attacked by surprise attacks and even receiving minor injuries from the people much weaker than themselves. Zoro, on the other hand was assaulted by a much stronger opponent than himself, despite that, he forced Fujitora to release his attack. That's clearly more impressive than what Ace had done.

1. Sanji broke that saber with one kick. The fact that Zoro blocked it, and the fact that Aokiji has only used it on enemies low on the food chain(At Marineford, he only used it on Luffy and never opted to use it against any of the serious fighters), it's clear that the Saber is a low-level attack. I wouldn't compare it to the attack that took a flying slash from post-skip Zoro to counter, and had the power of pushing Zoro down despite him resisting with post-skip strength.

Another testament to Saber being weak is that Marco snapped it with the same kick that Kizaru was able to block with no damage just by using his arm.

2. "Surprise" holds no weight in the way Zoro was affected by the gravity wave.

You must be registered for see images

By the time the gravity weight pushed Zoro into the ground, more than enough time passed for him to process that Fujitora was there. We even have two panels of rumbling and Zoro's glasses breaking before he's pushed into the ground. The fact that Zoro felt the gravity for quite a moment before the ground broke AND has seen Fujitora's power before AND is clearly shown fully processing that Fujitora was there, surprise really plays no role in this conversation. He fully knew what would be coming by the time the ground broke, giving him a good window to prepare himself.

3. It's really not. We've seen Admirals getting surprise attacked like you've seen, and spring back without showing any hindrance. We've never seen a weaker person cause an Admiral to fall to their knees. The only thing that really comes close is Luffy hitting Doffy with Red Hawk and the gap between their strength isn't really that high.

This is what ppl call selective reading or in other words fanboy logic. Zoros portrayal in that scene was pretty good can't be in any way called a loss.

Call it whatever you wanna call it. An L is an L.

 

[arv993]

Fujitora didn't call him rough, he said his flying slash was violent.

And no, Zoro hasn't. We've seen Ace counter Aokiji with no further detriment to himself, neutralizing the attack completely. Zoro's counter to Fujitora was nowhere near as clean and even-handed as that.



1. Sanji broke that saber with one kick. The fact that Zoro blocked it, and the fact that Aokiji has only used it on enemies low on the food chain(At Marineford, he only used it on Luffy and never opted to use it against any of the serious fighters), it's clear that the Saber is a low-level attack. I wouldn't compare it to the attack that took a flying slash from post-skip Zoro to counter, and had the power of pushing Zoro down despite him resisting with post-skip strength.

Another testament to Saber being weak is that Marco snapped it with the same kick that Kizaru was able to block with no damage just by using his arm.

2. "Surprise" holds no weight in the way Zoro was affected by the gravity wave.

You must be registered for see images

By the time the gravity weight pushed Zoro into the ground, more than enough time passed for him to process that Fujitora was there. We even have two panels of rumbling and Zoro's glasses breaking before he's pushed into the ground. The fact that Zoro felt the gravity for quite a moment before the ground broke AND has seen Fujitora's power before AND is clearly shown fully processing that Fujitora was there, surprise really plays no role in this conversation. He fully knew what would be coming by the time the ground broke, giving him a good window to prepare himself.

3. It's really not. We've seen Admirals getting surprise attacked like you've seen, and spring back without showing any hindrance. We've never seen a weaker person cause an Admiral to fall to their knees. The only thing that really comes close is Luffy hitting Doffy with Red Hawk and the gap between their strength isn't really that high.



Call it whatever you wanna call it. An L is an L.

The gap between pre G4 luffy and Doffy isn't high lol u should stop right there. No one said zoro= Fuji but that doesn't count as an L if you don't even fight, I guess Doffy lost to Aokiji too cuz he panted after an attack. The reach is ridiculous but then again you believe all kinds of other nonsense and try to throw in manga panels to make it seem like your legit but the argument is a reach like always.

 

[Punk Hazard]

The gap between pre G4 luffy and Doffy isn't high lol u should stop right there.

I never said it was.

No one said zoro= Fuji but that doesn't count as an L if you don't even fight,

It's an L because Zoro DID fight back and ended up on knee after that one attack. That's not good portrayal.

I guess Doffy lost to Aokiji too cuz he panted after an attack.

Completely different circumstances. Zoro wasn't hit by an attack that cut off his air.

The reach is ridiculous but then again you believe all kinds of other nonsense and try to throw in manga panels to make it seem like your legit but the argument is a reach like always.

Yes, make more generalized insults to fluff your argument.

 

[arv993]

I never said it was.


It's an L because Zoro DID fight back and ended up on knee after that one attack. That's not good portrayal.


Completely different circumstances. Zoro wasn't hit by an attack that cut off his air.


Yes, make more generalized insults to fluff your argument.

I'm not insulting u dude but simply stating the truth, I never curse in my arguments or call ppl kids like you and some other members but let's put that aside for now. All I'm saying is you're trying to cover up a bad argument with using many words and that only makes you look crazier when you're defending a point that is ludicrous to begin with and this argument is not even close to the crazy scale compared to the other claims you've made that's all. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings.

Immense pressure which is what made zoro pant, that's exactly what fujis gravity does. Again I'm not stating Fuji = zoro no one made that argument but it is not what ppl would call a loss. Sanji vs doffy in the first fight can be considered one but not this when zoro can still fight and didn't use any of his main moves or wasn't immobilized completely.

You said the gap in strength isn't that high, what else does that mean, doffy is much better than g2 luffy yet he put him on his knees.

 

[HashiraMadara]

Fujitora didn't call him rough, he said his flying slash was violent.
neutralizing the attack completely. Zoro's counter to Fujitora was nowhere near as clean and even-handed as that.
.

Did you read the same manga I did? Ace immediately after countering Akainu, he got burnt pretty badly, I might say he was worse tan Zoro

And no, Zoro hasn't. We've seen Ace counter Aokiji with no further detriment to himself,

Nami to Cracker
Luffy to Crocodile
jinbei to Moriah
Luffy to Enel

Superior devil fruit counter means nothing about the individuals's abilities

 

[A v i]

1. Sanji broke that saber with one kick. The fact that Zoro blocked it, and the fact that Aokiji has only used it on enemies low on the food chain(At Marineford, he only used it on Luffy and never opted to use it against any of the serious fighters), it's clear that the Saber is a low-level attack. I wouldn't compare it to the attack that took a flying slash from post-skip Zoro to counter, and had the power of pushing Zoro down despite him resisting with post-skip strength.

Another testament to Saber being weak is that Marco snapped it with the same kick that Kizaru was able to block with no damage just by using his arm.

A few posts ago, the level of attack used and the power level of the person countering it mattered very little to you when you tried to hype Ace using a feat of him countering Aokiji's attack. Only thing that mattered the most to you was the fact that it came from one of the strongest fighters in the world. But now, when I did the same thing with Zoro, you're doing the exact opposite of what you've done before.

2. "Surprise" holds no weight in the way Zoro was affected by the gravity wave.

You must be registered for see images

By the time the gravity weight pushed Zoro into the ground, more than enough time passed for him to process that Fujitora was there. We even have two panels of rumbling and Zoro's glasses breaking before he's pushed into the ground. The fact that Zoro felt the gravity for quite a moment before the ground broke AND has seen Fujitora's power before AND is clearly shown fully processing that Fujitora was there, surprise really plays no role in this conversation. He fully knew what would be coming by the time the ground broke, giving him a good window to prepare himself.

Since when can we calculate based on the number of panels? Further, it was a flashback, Do you consider a flashback and the time being passed at the time of fight the same? For all we know, Zoro getting blocked, him remembering Fujitora and Fujitora initiating the attack might have happened in less than second. He didn't even have enough time to think about why he is being attacked by the Old Gambler.

3. It's really not. We've seen Admirals getting surprise attacked like you've seen, and spring back without showing any hindrance. We've never seen a weaker person cause an Admiral to fall to their knees. The only thing that really comes close is Luffy hitting Doffy with Red Hawk and the gap between their strength isn't really that high.

Jozu made Aokiji bleed and seemingly made mad despite his I don't give a f*** attitude. Now, an a person of inferior fighting capacity made a superior fighter bleed. What do you expect to happened in an exact opposite scenario? The gap b/w Zoro and Fujitora is rather big for him to just shrug off the attack. Actually, it is fine to say he shrugged it off, considering how quickly he was able recover. It seemingly didn't took anything more than a few seconds for him to completely ignore what happened.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Did you read the same manga I did? Ace immediately after countering Akainu, he got burnt pretty badly, I might say he was worse tan Zoro



Nami to Cracker
Luffy to Crocodile
jinbei to Moriah
Luffy to Enel

Superior devil fruit counter means nothing about the individuals's abilities

This...is hilarious. The second part of your post completely defeats the first part. Ace was completely overwhelmed by Akainu not because of their individual abilities, like speed, power, or durability, but because Akainu's fruit has a natural superiority to Ace's fruit. It doesn't apply for the nature of my argument, where Zoro's clash with Fujitora had no abilities that were naturally, inherently superior to another.

A few posts ago, the level of attack used and the power level of the person countering it mattered very little to you when you tried to hype Ace using a feat of him countering Aokiji's attack.

Of course it does. It didn't need saying because it's asinine to assume that Aokiji would attack Ace, the son of Gol D. Roger, the person the World Government was willing to go to war with a Yonko over in order to execute, with a low-tier attack.

Only thing that mattered the most to you was the fact that it came from one of the strongest fighters in the world. But now, when I did the same thing with Zoro, you're doing the exact opposite of what you've done before.

It wasn't needed to be said with Aokiji vs Ace because it's no sense for the reason I stated above. It DOES need to be said in response to you because you didn't account for that in your response.

Since when can we calculate based on the number of panels? Further, it was a flashback, Do you consider a flashback and the time being passed at the time of fight the same? For all we know, Zoro getting blocked, him remembering Fujitora and Fujitora initiating the attack might have happened in less than second. He didn't even have enough time to think about why he is being attacked by the Old Gambler.

I never said the number of panels is a calculator for time. However, it does show that rumbling was occurring before the ground broke. Meaning that by the time the ground broke, Zoro was already aware that Fujitora was using a gravity wave. And it doesn't matter that it's a flashback. We clearly see that Zoro has fully processed who is in front of him, and we know he's aware of what that person does with his sword. "Surprise" isn't an excuse as to why Zoro didn't react to the gravity until so late, it was simply something he couldn't respond to in time. By the time the gravity hit, Zoro was no longer surprised that someone intercepted his attack because he was fully aware of who they were and had fully processed their presence.

Jozu made Aokiji bleed and seemingly made mad despite his I don't give a f*** attitude.

Nothing indicates that Aokiji was mad.

Now, an a person of inferior fighting capacity made a superior fighter bleed.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, blood is so irrelevant. When Luffy punched Garp, his face gushed a spurt of blood. When he stood up from Luffy's hit to dust himself off, his face was covered in blood, and yet we know that Luffy and Garp were worlds apart, unless you think the gap between Marineford Luffy and Garp is closer than the gap between Jozu and Aokiji.

What do you expect to happened in an exact opposite scenario? The gap b/w Zoro and Fujitora is rather big for him to just shrug off the attack. Actually, it is fine to say he shrugged it off, considering how quickly he was able recover. It seemingly didn't took anything more than a few seconds for him to completely ignore what happened.

And kudos for him for being able to stand back up, it still doesn't change that one attack reduced him to standing on one knee. Now if that one attack did that much, what would Raging Tiger do? What would gravity with the force that lifted all of the debris from across an entire country do? Like I said, it's an attack that is comparatively weaker that other Fujitora techniques, so while Zoro was able to recover from that one after a few moments, there was nothing stopping Fujitora from slamming him with more techniques while he was down, which shows the gap between them.

 

[-Akuma-]

One of a Yonko's top boys gets the benifit of the doubt. Ace high-dif

 

[-Akuma-]

As of right now I'd favour Ace. Luffy has yet to surpass Ace's bounty himself, which probably holds some significance, Luffy is also a year younger right now than Ace was at the time of his death.

They both should have equal growth rate too (Pirate King's son, and Most Wanted man's son) and while Luffy was under the tutelage of the Dark King, Ace was under the WSM and his crew.

So It's not even a foregone conclusion that Luffy is > Ace.

You also have the fact that a really young Ace was on par with Jimbei who by all means was much older in his pirating life, thus the Jimbei that fought Ace and the Jimbei we see today shouldn't be worlds apart. Jimbei is at worst stronger than Sanji or M3 level, and Ace is significantly stronger than him because of his growth rate.

Looks like every once in awhile we agree on something.