These people claiming to be Madara fan's always have an issue with putting limitations on his power. Smfh.
No..the Databook stated that Madara was the strongest of the Uchiha clan and in context went on to say that he excelled sharingan wise until he became the head of the clan. Sasuke isn't subject to this statement because when Madara held the said title, Sasuke was non-existent at that time.
All these type of statements are subject to timelines. Even though i'm familiar with your flawed tunneled visioned pattern of argumentation which most likely says you will ignore the logic and reason behind what I am about to say: timelines are the ground rule when it comes to nominating the strongest member of any clan because I can assure you that before Madara came into existence, he was not the strongest of the Uchiha clan, just as he wasn't the strongest of the Uchiha clan when he was 2years of Age because at those times the apex of his own power had not yet bloom into fruition.
There isn't any issue with putting a limit on Madara's power, nor do I really favor Madara over Sasuke. Putting him below Sasuke is beyond laughable though, just as it would be laughable to put Naruto above Hagoromo.
You're just arguing semantics and you're arguing that the entry only be subjected to a specific timeline when that isn't even implied. The parts of the entry regarding his power use present tense language, not past tense like the rest of his article does when they directly reference his past.
"Together with Senju Hashirama, they were called Legendary Shinobi". Past tense
"The strongest man of the Uchiha clan is Madara."Present tense
"When invoking the destructive God that is “The Complete-Body Susanoo”, his strength isto the extent that it even rivals that of the tailed-beasts." Present tense
"Even amongst the Uchiha clan, he excelled at the usage of the Sharingan." Past tense
"As the head of the clan, he also enjoyed his reputation and the trust and confidence of his people." Past tense
Which even though unrelated to your claim that Madara was stated to be the Strongest Uchiha in the Databook (it is your claim because the was not the exact statement) correlates to what you're trying to portray as during that moment Madara was facing the Hokage's, he was the strongest Uchiha.
Really now? This doesn't even begin to make sense. Saying that Madara is(which signifies the present time) the strongest man in the Uchiha clan would blatantly mean that he is the strongest Uchiha.
Which is simply assuming Madara's shockwaves travel an equal distance to Sasuke's. Assuming that the density of rock of Madara's CT-meteorites would not prohibit the Shockwaves from Madara's PS from going right through; and we know density matters because unlike the CT-meteorites, a mountain would never stay composed if hovered in the air for the simple fact that all the weight would be transferred to the portion of it closer to earth and it would break. Assuming that Madara's and Sasuke PS both produce an equal amount of force behind their most powerful sword swipes. Assuming that the power Sasuke received from Hagoromo could never have made his PS sword swipes stronger than Madara's.
CT doesn't change anything when it comes to density. CT brings up individual rocks and holds them in place with gravity. The individual rocks composing CT don't become more durable just because they are packed together with other rocks. That makes zero sense.
There is no difference between any Perfect Susano'o except the jutsu that each wielder uses through it.
The energy released from Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o slashes were mountain to mountain range level at VOTE, which means that is the power that he was using to cut the meteors. Mountain range level power just like at VOTE. The exact same as Madara.
Hagoromo's Yin seal was never directly a part of Sasuke's reserves and the effect it would have on Susano'o would be negligible aside from making it a senjutsu Susano'o.
Ok, I'll just read the "red" for now. Lets examine your logic. Since None of those feats were meant to be interpreted as Sasuke becoming stronger than any Pre-Jin Madara, the same said author making a statement in an official source, the manga, that Sasuke had the potential to surpass Madara directly before giving him a powerup which after which it was received, Madara himself as the Juubi's Jinchuriki and having absorbed the Shinju stated that he then possessed and equal power to that of Naruto and Sasuke and that they would see who is the strongest between the pair and himself.
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Would make absolutely no sense on his behalf right? If Madara was already stronger that R-Sasuke before becoming a Jin, then he would have crushed his level of power after becoming the Jinchuriki and crushed even that after absorbing the shinju, unless Naruto made up for the vast difference inbetween Madara's and Sasuke's power at that time which would be nothing more than a lie because Naruto and Sasuke were roughly equal in power.
Madara never stated that they possessed equal power. He stated that they had the same powers between them. Naruto was stronger than Sasuke considering that he needed the Biju to match him.
If you are talking about pure firepower, then Naruto & Sasuke don't match any Ten Tails' jinchuriki even together. They are good enough however to seal them away with the chakra that Hagoromo gave them or remove the Biju, at least before they can get nuked presumably.
There isn't any issue with putting a limit on Madara's power, nor do I really favor Madara over Sasuke. Putting him below Sasuke is beyond laughable though, just as it would be laughable to put Naruto above Hagoromo.
You're just arguing semantics and you're arguing that the entry only be subjected to a specific timeline when that isn't even implied. The parts of the entry regarding his power use present tense language, not past tense like the rest of his article does when they directly reference his past.
"Together with Senju Hashirama, they were called Legendary Shinobi". Past tense
"The strongest man of the Uchiha clan is Madara."Present tense
"When invoking the destructive God that is “The Complete-Body Susanoo”, his strength isto the extent that it even rivals that of the tailed-beasts." Present tense
"Even amongst the Uchiha clan, he excelled at the usage of the Sharingan." Past tense
"As the head of the clan, he also enjoyed his reputation and the trust and confidence of his people." Past tense
Timeline is blatantly implied because Madara was not the strongest of the Uchiha clan during every present timeline in the Manga. You are simply taking the statement out of it's context which is during the time him and Hashirama were called legendary shinobi.
That strength is the power (to control) life or death…Together with Senju Hashirama, they were called 「Legendary Shinobi」. The strongest man of the Uchiha Clan is Madara.{...}
The entry begins in that context denoting the circumstances that form the setting for the trailing statement. You cannot just remove that statement from the context, single it out and apply reason to it as that it is referring to present tense. That's pretext. After Madara died he was not the strongest because he was dead. When Itachi slaughtered the Uchiha clan Madara was not the strongest because he was dead, Obito was the strongest at that point. Even now you cannot make that statement and apply it to the Manga because Madara is dead. The Uchiha clan consists of Sasuke Uchiha, Shin Uchiha, Sarada Uchiha and Sakura Uchiha.
Really now? This doesn't even begin to make sense. Saying that Madara is(which signifies the present time) the strongest man in the Uchiha clan would blatantly mean that he is the strongest Uchiha.
It makes sense in accordance to your reference because when Madara was Edo-Tensei, he was the strongest Uchiha but him being the strongest of the Uchiha clan in context of the entry doesn't mean he is the strongest Uchiha in every timeline.
CT doesn't change anything when it comes to density. CT brings up individual rocks and holds them in place with gravity. The individual rocks composing CT don't become more durable just because they are packed together with other rocks. That makes zero sense.
There is no difference between any Perfect Susano'o except the jutsu that each wielder uses through it.
The energy released from Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o slashes were mountain to mountain range level at VOTE, which means that is the power that he was using to cut the meteors. Mountain range level power just like at VOTE. The exact same as Madara.
@bold: Whats harder to cut through, a puddle of water made of water or a block of ice made of water?
Please link a scan or DB reference denoting, stating or implying that every Perfect Susano'o is the same and a scan showing the force behind Madara's PS slashes going through the very same quantity of material that Sasuke's went through.
Hagoromo's Yin seal was never directly a part of Sasuke's reserves and the effect it would have on Susano'o would be negligible aside from making it a senjutsu Susano'o.
Madara never stated that they possessed equal power. He stated that they had the same powers between them. Naruto was stronger than Sasuke considering that he needed the Biju to match him.
If you are talking about pure firepower, then Naruto & Sasuke don't match any Ten Tails' jinchuriki even together. They are good enough however to seal them away with the chakra that Hagoromo gave them or remove the Biju, at least before they can get nuked presumably.
If the Yin seal was never incorporated into Sasuke's reserves then it would make absolutely no sense that Sasuke was able showcase more power than he did prior to receiving the Yin seal between the time he entered the war using his jutsu and when had to borrow chakra from Naruto.
If Madara was simply stating that they had similar powers between them then his statement in the last panel would have zero value especially since he had everything needed to gauge their power. Adding to that, Madara had to retreat to acquire the other Rin'negan in order to fight the duo because they were pressuring him. Which again refutes what you're saying because if Rikudo Naruto and Sasuke > 1RJJ Madara then it's impossible for a Pre-JJ Madara to be > Sasuke if Sasuke and Naruto are roughly equal in power.
Retreating from the opposition of Naruto and his comrades, Madara thought that he (should try to employ the kind of) justice that he believed in! It was in order to achieve 「Everyone's Happiness」, (which was his version of an ideal) that he had been thinking about.
Timeline is blatantly implied because Madara was not the strongest of the Uchiha clan during every present timeline in the Manga. You are simply taking the statement out of it's context which is during the time him and Hashirama were called legendary shinobi.
The entry begins in that context denoting the circumstances that form the setting for the trailing statement. You cannot just remove that statement from the context, single it out and apply reason to it as that it is referring to present tense. That's pretext. After Madara died he was not the strongest because he was dead. When Itachi slaughtered the Uchiha clan Madara was not the strongest because he was dead, Obito was the strongest at that point. Even now you cannot make that statement and apply it to the Manga because Madara is dead. The Uchiha clan consists of Sasuke Uchiha, Shin Uchiha, Sarada Uchiha and Sakura Uchiha.
It makes sense in accordance to your reference because when Madara was Edo-Tensei, he was the strongest Uchiha but him being the strongest of the Uchiha clan in context of the entry doesn't mean he is the strongest Uchiha in every timeline.
No. Timeline is only applied for statements that are directly using past tense. Timeline obviously does not apply to statements that utilize present tense. This is waste of time to even refute.
The context that you're insinuating is there does not exist. The article does not talk exclusively of the present nor the past. It's just an entry about Madara in general. If the context you were claiming that was there actually existed, then there would be no separation of tenses. The entire article would use past tense.
Instead it would say "In his era, Madara was the strongest amongst the clan." or something along those lines.
Not sure how Madara not being the strongest Uchiha through every time period is relevant when it's blatantly stated that he is the strongest of the clan. Is=Right now. How hard is this to understand?
The databook goes up to the Kaguya arc, not the end of the manga. Adult Sasuke should theoretically have surpassed Madara as portrayed by Orochimaru, so I'm not referring to him.
@bold: Whats harder to cut through, a puddle of water made of water or a block of ice made of water?
Please link a scan or DB reference denoting, stating or implying that every Perfect Susano'o is the same and a scan showing the force behind Madara's PS slashes going through the very same quantity of material that Sasuke's went through.
You're comparing water in it's liquid form to water in it's solid state and you seriously believe that this is a comparison that even begins to make sense? :|
CT merely brings in individual debris and holds them in place with gravity. CT does not change the composition of any of this material, nor does the individual material get any more durable from being held together with other individual material.
Sasuke never cut anything of higher quality than Madara. The only difference is the scale of what they cut and that's obviously irrelevant due to the shockwave of Madara's Susano'o being the same as Sasuke's.
If the Yin seal was never incorporated into Sasuke's reserves then it would make absolutely no sense that Sasuke was able showcase more power than he did prior to receiving the Yin seal between the time he entered the war using his jutsu and when had to borrow chakra from Naruto.
Sasuke's heightened ocular power(Perfect Susano'o) was due to the Rinnegan's powerful chakra.
If the Yin seal was incorporated into Sasuke's reserves, then he wouldn't need to manually draw chakra from it to use a Six Paths Chidori. All of his Chidori would be enhanced by Six Paths Power, but according to Sasuke, it isn't.
If Madara was simply stating that they had similar powers between them then his statement in the last panel would have zero value especially since he had everything needed to gauge their power. Adding to that, Madara had to retreat to acquire the other Rin'negan in order to fight the duo because they were pressuring him. Which again refutes what you're saying because if Rikudo Naruto and Sasuke > 1RJJ Madara then it's impossible for a Pre-JJ Madara to be > Sasuke if Sasuke and Naruto are roughly equal in power.
Madara stated that they shared the same type of power between them, then he goes on to state that they will see whom is the strongest between them.
This isn't hard to understand. The 1st half of the statement simply refers to the fact that both sides have the Rinnegan & Six Paths senjutsu, while the 2nd half states that their upcoming fight will determine which side is the most powerful.
Naruto & Sasuke were pressuring him and at that rate, he risked being sealed. It had nothing to do with their firepower relative to his which they clearly don't match.
For the last time, Naruto & Sasuke are not equal to each other. The latter needed the Biju to match the former.
Not seeing any value in the databook image you posted either. I know that he retreated from Naruto & Sasuke and I never said otherwise.
TheSages456 Say's that Pre-JJ Madara > R-Sasuke. However, even after gaining the Juubi, having a Rin'negan then gaining a second Rin'nengan he was still unable to push either Naruto or Sasuke to their limits. Which derails the notion to substantial depths.
TheSages456 Say's that Pre-JJ Madara > R-Sasuke. However, even after gaining the Juubi, having a Rin'negan then gaining a second Rin'nengan he was still unable to push either Naruto or Sasuke to their limits. Which derails the notion to substantial depths.
So then the retreating part was meant to describe how Madara couldn't push them so he left? I don't think that's a valid argument since he came back down ready and confident nor had he attempted to attack them after getting his second eye.
No. Timeline is only applied for statements that are directly using past tense. Timeline obviously does not apply to statements that utilize present tense. This is waste of time to even refute.
The context that you're insinuating is there does not exist. The article does not talk exclusively of the present nor the past. It's just an entry about Madara in general. If the context you were claiming that was there actually existed, then there would be no separation of tenses. The entire article would use past tense.
Instead it would say "In his era, Madara was the strongest amongst the clan." or something along those lines.
Not sure how Madara not being the strongest Uchiha through every time period is relevant when it's blatantly stated that he is the strongest of the clan. Is=Right now. How hard is this to understand?
The databook goes up to the Kaguya arc, not the end of the manga. Adult Sasuke should theoretically have surpassed Madara as portrayed by Orochimaru, so I'm not referring to him.
You're comparing water in it's liquid form to water in it's solid state and you seriously believe that this is a comparison that even begins to make sense? :|
CT merely brings in individual debris and holds them in place with gravity. CT does not change the composition of any of this material, nor does the individual material get any more durable from being held together with other individual material.
Sasuke never cut anything of higher quality than Madara. The only difference is the scale of what they cut and that's obviously irrelevant due to the shockwave of Madara's Susano'o being the same as Sasuke's.
Timelines can be used for statements written in present tense as long as the narrative is in past tense, which it is because the Context is during the time him and Hashirama were called legendary shinobi. Everything in that portion of the Article happened in the past. Madara cannot currently be the strongest Uchiha because he is dead .You're seriously saying the article doesn't talk exclusive of past or present when the Article on a whole goes through occurrences in Madara's life from his past as a child to the present along with visual representation through the various stages?
Sages, why does it need to say "In his Era" when the passage already starts out in the context of being in his era, that is, when Madara and Hashirama together were called Legendary shinobi. Is cannot be = Right now because right now Madara is Dead.
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What you're saying, for example is that in the above scans ^ particular time in the Manga that a Dead Madara was stronger than a living Sasuke.What you're also saying is that Madara was the Strongest Uchiha even before or the very moment he was born and you're also saying that he is stronger than the first Uchiha because according to your logic, we must in every single scenario, regardless of the timeline, consider Madara to be the strongest Uchiha and none of that makes any logical sense whatsoever.
Bruh. How can you say Adult Sasuke should have theoretically surpassed Madara according to Orochimaru when you just said that Madara is the strongest Uchiha and Is=Right now,yet Right now the Manga is at the timeline of Adult Sasuke.
@Blue: When atoms are in a solid state they're condensed together, the density of water's atomic particles actually increases because of this. Similarly, CT and a mountain. The rock gravitated towards CT's core is actually crushed and condensed into a spherical shape due to the gravitational pressure leaving alot less space between particles while the same doesn't happen for a less dense mountain under earths Gravity because the the Gravitational acceleration of CT is stronger than Earth's Gravitational constant, which is why it is able to pull debris from earths surface, against it's gravity to the Core of the CT.
Also, still waiting for those scans....or DB reference denoting, stating or implying that every Perfect Susano'o is the same and a scan showing the force behind Madara's PS slashes going through the very same quantity of material that Sasuke's went through. All you've done is speculate.
Sasuke's heightened ocular power(Perfect Susano'o) was due to the Rinnegan's powerful chakra.
If the Yin seal was incorporated into Sasuke's reserves, then he wouldn't need to manually draw chakra from it to use a Six Paths Chidori. All of his Chidori would be enhanced by Six Paths Power, but according to Sasuke, it isn't.
Madara stated that they shared the same type of power between them, then he goes on to state that they will see whom is the strongest between them.
This isn't hard to understand. The 1st half of the statement simply refers to the fact that both sides have the Rinnegan & Six Paths senjutsu, while the 2nd half states that their upcoming fight will determine which side is the most powerful.
Naruto & Sasuke were pressuring him and at that rate, he risked being sealed. It had nothing to do with their firepower relative to his which they clearly don't match.
For the last time, Naruto & Sasuke are not equal to each other. The latter needed the Biju to match the former.
Not seeing any value in the databook image you posted either. I know that he retreated from Naruto & Sasuke and I never said otherwise.
Meaning: Sasuke's heightened power came from his Rin'negan which he got from Hagoromo as a powerup. I'll just agree with your case on the Yin seal as it's rather derailing.
@Bold: See it doesn't make sense for them to be pressuring Madara according to your logic:
Then: 1RJJ Madara >>>>>>>> R-Sasuke and R-Naruto
Therefore: DRJJ Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R-Sasuke and R-Naruto.
There should have been no contest what so ever and it would have been impossible for them to pressure Madara.
Naruto and Sasuke at that point stalemated in their last match Say's that they are roughly equal. It boiled down to the extent that Sasuke would have killed Naruto if it wasn't for Kurama and that Sasuke was not yet adept with his new abilities.
So then the retreating part was meant to describe how Madara couldn't push them so he left? I don't think that's a valid argument since he came back down ready and confident nor had he attempted to attack them after getting his second eye.
Madara had to retreat from confronting the duo in order to gain the second Rin'negan because they were pressuring him. If Madara was already stronger than Rikudo Sasuke before he became the Juubi's Jin then after becoming a Jin or in other words, after housing the most poweful chakra entity in the NV he should have wrecked Sasuke no contest and Naruto alone would not have been able to make up for the difference in power however, the Manga clearly say's differently.
