Isn't Naruto's power technically his own?

[The Necromancer]

I'm not denying Naruto had help, it's idiotic to deny that. That's what his character represents. Co operation with others is what makes him strong. That doesn't make him pathetic or weak. Just another way a character gets strength.

And that's all fine and good within the contexts of a plot-driven story.

But on a forum, we treat it as a competition. An athletic event almost.

Imagine Naruto and Sasuke are playing chess, then all of a sudden the Kyuubi gives Naruto 10 more pawns, then he tells him that Sasuke's trying to take his queen in the next two turns, so he should use a new strategy, then he lets Naruto move his pieces 2x as far as they normally can.

That's a handicap.

 

[Michael]

Sure, he has some skill and ability. I would even say he has a lot of skill and ability. But the fact remains that the Kyuubi gives him things he cannot have and will never have without it. You can't possibly believe Naruto wouldn't be any less powerful without his Bijuu friends.

That's the definition of a handicap.

I'm not arguing that, only that Naruto's power is what makes him strong, not kurama. Naruto isn't some fodder jinchuriki, he is infact the greatest jin to ever exist in NV thanks to his own power. Here is an example of what I mean.

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[Jiren]

The difference between Naruto before and now is that before.

He begged like a dog for a little bit of power.

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Now he begs like a dog for a lot of power.

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[The Necromancer]

I'm not arguing that, only that Naruto's power is what makes him strong, not kurama. Naruto isn't some fodder jinchuriki, he is infact the greatest jin to ever exist in NV thanks to his own power. Here is an example of what I mean.

Spoiler

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And yet what would all that skill and ability get him without the Kyuubi? Not nearly as much. That's the entire point.

 

[Michael]

And that's all fine and good within the contexts of a plot-driven story.

But on a forum, we treat it as a competition. An athletic event almost.

Imagine Naruto and Sasuke are playing chess, then all of a sudden the Kyuubi gives Naruto 10 more pawns, then he tells him that Sasuke's trying to take his queen in the next two turns, so he should use a new strategy, then he lets Naruto move his pieces 2x as far as they normally can.

That's a handicap.

Now Imagine they're playing chess and itachi's visual prowess alow sasuke to predict 5 turns ahead, you see the dilemma?

 

[Nick01]

Remove anything that would even be considered borrowed power by anyone, then we would have :
MS Sasuke - That would pretty much be his limit leading to eventual blindness.

SM Naruto - Same, though the more experienced the SM is, the better.

 

[The Necromancer]

Now Imagine they're playing chess and itachi's visual prowess alow sasuke to predict 5 turns ahead, you see the dilemma?

I never said Sasuke didn't get handouts. It's just a fact that Sasuke got a single pair of eyes while Naruto got thousands of years of history, near infinite chakra, battle tactic support, another consciousness to use in combat, healing abilities that work in any situation, and inherent speed he never had to train for.

Take away every handicap, and most character outclass Naruto by miles.

 

[LoZelda101]

Yes, it's his power. Even in bijuu mode when Naruto utilize Kurama avatar, it's Naruto the one fighting and using the techniques wich requires tremendous skill btw. Kurama alone cannot perform such techniques, it's all Naruto.

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Just how sasuke his itachi's eyes/chakra, sasuke is the one utilizing that power to the fullest extent. Kurama is basically just the battery, Naruto is the machine. Thats why sasuke was impressed/jealous Naruto could use that much chakra flawlessly.

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nonsense. kurama is the battery and the machine.

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also atleast ems still drains sasuke's chakra. making his borrowed power his own.

 

[Michael]

And yet what would all that skill and ability get him without the Kyuubi? Not nearly as much. That's the entire point.

Now ask yourself this, what would Naruto be with kurama but without skill and ability? Fodder, thats my point.

 

[The Necromancer]

Now ask yourself this, what would Naruto be with kurama but without skill and ability? Fodder, thats my point.

Exactly the same as he was until the war. Pretty damn decent just throwing his infinite chakra around.

If anything you've proved my point. Naruto needs the Kyuubi and the Kyuubi needs Naruto. There's no scenario where being gifted the chakra, abilities, and experiences of another is not a handicap. Period. No matter how many cigars you want to throw around.

 

[90sKids98]

The difference between Naruto before and now is that before.

He begged like a dog for a little bit of power.

You must be registered for see images

Now he begs like a dog for a lot of power.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

1. Thats RSM Naruto, RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are perfect examples of having borrowed power
2. KCM Naruto is different, he took Kurama's chakra and made it his own to utilize
3. Before you or anyone else argues, BM I can agree to an extent he's borrowing power. But BSM was different because he took BM and combined it with HIS Sage Mode

 

[LoZelda101]

I'm not denying Naruto had help, it's idiotic to deny that. That's what his character represents. Co operation with others is what makes him strong. That doesn't make him pathetic or weak. Just another way a character gets strength.

right, but if I brought up edo itachi w/ jinks "help" against nagato it's suddenly a different story.

 

[Joshutsu]

It's not saying he is weak. It's just saying he could not do that particular thing without this chakra entity to aid him. Kurama isn't naturally a part of him or something that can be developed it was put inside him.

His achievements are his own but the really strong ones are result of having kurama or having met the sage. And I don't see why people care that that is the case. It is what it is.

 

[Michael]

Exactly the same as he was until the war. Pretty damn decent just throwing his infinite chakra around.

If anything you've proved my point. Naruto needs the Kyuubi and the Kyuubi needs Naruto. There's no scenario where taking the chakra, abilities, and experiences of another is not a handicap. Period. No matter how many cigars you want to throw around.

So you just blatantly disregard Naruto's other abilities like sage mode, rasenshuriken, kagebunshin,etc? Your biased thinking will prevent you from seeing the truth.

 

[Kakooli]

No fooling here (I actually can't remember too well) wasn't Naruto's training to acquire the Kyuubi's power about to fail until Mom stepped in to save him? Didn't he also immediately spam kcm shadow clones when he entered the war, exceeding the limit he could spam? Didn't Kurama slyly bail him out when Naruto initially started spamming clones at the start of the war arc by not tussling with him for chakra? I seem to recall the Hachibi remarking on it, saying he'd have been dead otherwise.

If that's the case then Naruto didn't seem to know much about his "Own" power and owes his life to Kurama welfare (cooperation).

I can accept Naruto's limited kcm power being his own. Any power that requires Kurama merely cooperating isn't his.

 

[The Necromancer]

So you just blatantly disregard Naruto's other abilities like sage mode, rasenshuriken, kagebunshin,etc? Your biased thinking will prevent you from seeing the truth.

You're the one completely ignoring what I'm writing.

Those are all his powers, and he is strong with them, but he will never be as strong as he is in the manga without the Kyuubi. Never. It has exponentially raised his potential cap.

The fact that you can't refute my chess example, and instead choose to throw Sasuke under the buss (despite having no place whatsoever in this thread) is proof enough that you know Naruto's vast handicaps are what kept him in the game.

What is Naruto without the Kyuubi? Maybe living Minato's level, which is pretty damn strong, but nothing compared to the power creep of the rest of the manga.

 

[Michael]

You're the one completely ignoring what I'm writing.

Those are all his powers, and he is strong with them, but he will never be as strong as he is in the manga without the Kyuubi. Never. It has exponentially raised his potential cap.

The fact that you can't refute my chess example, and instead choose to throw Sasuke under the buss (despite having no place whatsoever in this thread) is proof enough that you know Naruto's vast handicaps are what kept him in the game.

What is Naruto without the Kyuubi? Maybe living Minato's level, which is pretty damn strong, but nothing compared to the power creep of the rest of the manga.

I never denied Kurama makes Naruto stronger, simply that his skill/ability is what allows him to use said power.

 

[Mori Jin]

When people are in denial they start to sound like a broken record. It's all naruto's power, haters deal with it he's stronger than your favourite characters.

 

[The Necromancer]

I never denied Kurama makes Naruto stronger, simply that his skill/ability is what allows him to use said power.

Then you agree that Naruto skillfully uses the handicaps he was given to become powerful?

Because that's the truth.

 

[Sir Blades]

And that's all fine and good within the contexts of a plot-driven story.

But on a forum, we treat it as a competition. An athletic event almost.

Imagine Naruto and Sasuke are playing chess, then all of a sudden the Kyuubi gives Naruto 10 more pawns, then he tells him that Sasuke's trying to take his queen in the next two turns, so he should use a new strategy, then he lets Naruto move his pieces 2x as far as they normally can.

That's a handicap.

That's good and all but you are only showing one side chess game, while naruto has a little fox whispering strategies to him the opponent(Sasuke in this case) has a pair of eyes that show possible outcomes and movements, not to mention that it wouldnt be a match if a certain character gave him a new pair of eyes to use.