[VS] Part 1 Lee vs War arc Hinata
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FemmeFatale
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lol Lee can go 5th gate right? He probably stomps. If it's war arc Hinata with Kurama chakra though, i think Hinata can snatch it extreme high diff seeing as Part 1 Lee couldn't keep up his gates for very long. Kyuubi amped Air palm definitely plays a role.
neosmith500
Active member
This seems to be Lee from his Kimi fight so anything beyond 3rd gate should be restricted due to his condition . Drunken Lee would most likely get destroyed by Twin Lion 64 Palms if she can get enough time to prep which she probably can.
Gated Lee would destroy her with ease tho.
Destroy war arc Hinata with ease.....I hope it isn't Cloaked war arc Hinata though because
- 3rd Gated Lee is feat-less despite his opportunity to show case feats [
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]-[
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] We can only speculate it increases his speed but that won't be a problem since Pt 1 Neji's byakugan was already keeping up with with 5th Gated Lee's speed. - DB3 Hinata has the same stat as part 1 Air palm-less Neji in Taijutsu who Lee needed to go 5th gate to defeat.
Logically, base DB3 Hinata(who is below war arc Hinata btw) has her chance as she has the byakugan to track his speed + Part 1 Neji's taijutsu + Air palm. I'm not even sure why i said he stomps anymore but i'll still be giving him the benefit of the doubt..
War arc cloaked Hinata though who will have all her stats amped doesn't lose to any form of part 1 Lee.
neosmith500
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4th Gated Lee would destroy even cloaked Hinata , simply by moving he wrecks her whole balance then proceeds to kill her with ease.
3rd Gate is irrelevant and part1 Neji's Byakugan keeping with 4th gated Lee doesn't mean Hinata has the physical reaction to avoid getting sent flying by a simple shunshin blitz from Lee which is so powerful its wrecks the area similar to wat Naruto did against Neji but way worse.
That doesn't put her reaction and reflex on par with Neji's in the same way Lee who has similar stats doesn't have reactions even close to Neji.
She doesn't have p1 Neji's taijutsu or reaction timing at all nor is she as skilled , she was barely catching up to that Level in the War arc as a manga-fact.
4th Gated Lee wrecks her easily by destoying her foothold with a simple blitz followed by a brutal beating since Hinata cant even so much as expel chakra from all her tenketsu to try and reduce the damage done , but she easily beats drunken Lee but only with Anmed Air-palm , and Base Lee is easily taken with neg diff.
lol man.. this is interesting xD You didn't even say base Hinata but cloaked Hinata? How does this scene play out? Lee moves and Hinata.. a ninja..war arc at that... suddenly trips without moving?
Part 1 Neji's byakugan kept up with 5th gate Lee.. and i'm not entirely sure but are you saying 5th gated Lee has more damage output than the Naruto that fought Neji?
As for the physical reaction part..i posted in the Kidomaru thread how its stated in the databook that Hinata did fight on par with Neji in the CE... Plus what you posted yourself somewhere else
And then there's this
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Hinata isn't going to be like Sasuke who tried to attack Lee and expected to be able to block at the same time...Hinatas byakugan gives her forehand notice of when Lee is going to use shunshin. She follows his movements and simply thrusts the air palm in that direction and Lee is forced back. Hinata stays on the defense with the rotational defensive motion you've described and waits out Lee's 5th gate which doesn't last very long as evidenced by the Gaara fight at which point she then proceeds to kill him.
What really is the difference between the speed used to execute 64 consecutive palms and evasive speed that you assume Hinata can't use that same movement speed for evasive maneuvers?
You're also still of the belief that War arc Hinata's reactions is below CE Neji level..which makes absolutely no sense as she's portrayed to have trained with her father and Neji during the time skip. The Hyuga train in the use of gentle fist. All abilities like Kaiten, body blow, twin lions etc are applications of gentle fist not independent techniques. How then can you explain Hinata training in one particular style for over 2 years and not improved past CE Neji's level?
That actually would imply out of all the Konoha 12, Hinata was the only one who didn't improve at all...and even the useless Ino did? I don't see you as one of those automatic Hinata haters man..try to look logically at this.
Again, it takes just 13 milliseconds to mentally interpret visual stimulus. Hinata was already moving while mentally gauging the speed and ascertaining the location the spikes were aiming for. Reaction feat.
In the pain arc, Hinata couldn't have seen the force pushing Konoha apart (byakugan can't see gravity) but it's also portrayed there she was able to react fast enough to avoid getting injured before Katsuyu covered her while Shikamaru, Kiba and the Hyuga beside her were injured. Possible reaction feat.
Perhaps you've not seen my reply in the Hinata vs Kido thread? I asked then and i'll ask now that you at least tell me where in the manga i can find this manga fact you're talking about and i'll go look for the scan myself.
Does the underlined mean 4th gated Lee can wreck Neji's foothold by simply blitzing? The Hyuga style taijutsu incorporates balancing, rotational and sleek movements in it so i doubt that is a plausible scenario.
@bold
Juukenpou Ichigekishin - Gentle Fist Art One Attack Body
Close (0m ~ 5m)
Attack, Supplementary
Taijutsu, Kekkei Genkai
User: Hyuuga Neji
Juukenpou Ichigekishin is a Taijutsu technique used by Hyuuga Neji. Utilizing the Hyuuga ability to expel chakra from their tenketsu, Neji will emit a burst of chakra from his chakra points against an opponent or material which is binding him through bodily contact. This burst will knock aside the binding and free him.
Close (0m ~ 5m)
Attack, Supplementary
Taijutsu, Kekkei Genkai
User: Hyuuga Neji
Juukenpou Ichigekishin is a Taijutsu technique used by Hyuuga Neji. Utilizing the Hyuuga ability to expel chakra from their tenketsu, Neji will emit a burst of chakra from his chakra points against an opponent or material which is binding him through bodily contact. This burst will knock aside the binding and free him.
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neosmith500
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Lee moves , then this happens....
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Yea he does.
Ntn of wat i said there correlates to Gated Lee being able to wreck all footing with just shunshin , and Hinata did not fight on par with Neji in the CE , she didn't even care to check if her tenketsu was struck , the fight was very one-sided and Neji went easy on her.
How can she maintain a steady rotational motion when Lee destroys her foothold before he even gets to her by simple shunshin power?
Not when Lee is moving so fast he alters her balance and air-born she gets destoyed so im not seeing how hinata has a chance here.
Because P1 Neji has skills that has never been seen in the hyuga , easily high chunin level to low jonin level in terms of Taijutsu skill while Hinata at the end of the war despite training with Neji could not use 64 palms or Rotation and was barely catching up to that level , so at best she'd be close to his level.
Actually it doesn't , she did get stronger no doubt but i just dont see how this equates to Hinata being as fast or on par with a serious CE Neji.
Looking at this logically is exactly why i think she loses to gated Lee.
But doesn' put her on par with CE Neji.
Im not too familar with this scene , but as u said possible reaction feat.
I meant the fact that Hinata could barely pull 64 palms after years of training with Neji , while Neji learned it by himself along with Kaiten , puts his movements and skill way above hers right?
Yes , since Neji cant do anything to prevent that scenario , and if he jumps he's gonna get blitzed in the air , i even had a debate about this very thing and my theory incorperated Neji constantly expeling a large amount of chakra to reduce damage since he cant physically react to such speed and power.
So are u implying that Hinata can use every hyuga ability?
Except the damage shown in this scan is the area where Lee had already run on. The scan also shows it didn't affect the floor under Gaara's feet because:
- Lee would need a stable platform to use the stance he'll need to kick Gaara upwards
- If Gaara's balance was off set, Lee wouldn't have been able to kick him in a straight line upwards (
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). His kick connected directly and perfectly with Gaara's chin and sent him upwards in a straight line. There's no way that would have been possible if Gaara was off balance.And really though, what sort of sorcery does Lee have that he'll be able to destroy an area that he hasn't even reached not less stepped on?
That's a big claim man..I'll concede on this if you can tell me what 5th gated Lee has that when it clashes with Kaiten, it'll cause an explosion.
Lee is fast..but that doesn't mean he can destroy a location he hasn't reached. [
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] In the top part, part of the village is still untouched because the shinra tensei had not gotten there. Lee's stepping force destroys the Earth. He isn't destroying the Earth under Hinata or even Neji's feet without getting there first.Byakugan can track high speed movement + Kurama amped air palm.
Unfortunately @bold is an opinion you and most of the members here have but Kishi seemed to think otherwise.
Hyuuga Hinata
The one she admires taught her about the courage to stand up!!
Chuunin Exam: Third Preliminary Test
[Her fight against Neji]
The time had finally come to fight against Neji, from the Branch House, and hater of the Main House. Hinata disliked conflict, despite which she fought desperately in order to change herself. But as expected, she was no match for Neji, whom people refer to as the strongest in the Hyuuga Clan. [Missing sentence]
Naruto is throwing taunts at Neji. Hinata is able to draw courage from his cheering…
A scene where she even fights on par with the great Neji. The blood of the Hyuuga also flows is Hinata’s veins!
But she yields before Neji’s Gentle Fist, and gets wounded and beaten down several times over…
Earnest feelings are stronger than any weapon…
The one she admires taught her about the courage to stand up!!
Chuunin Exam: Third Preliminary Test
[Her fight against Neji]
The time had finally come to fight against Neji, from the Branch House, and hater of the Main House. Hinata disliked conflict, despite which she fought desperately in order to change herself. But as expected, she was no match for Neji, whom people refer to as the strongest in the Hyuuga Clan. [Missing sentence]
Naruto is throwing taunts at Neji. Hinata is able to draw courage from his cheering…
A scene where she even fights on par with the great Neji. The blood of the Hyuuga also flows is Hinata’s veins!
But she yields before Neji’s Gentle Fist, and gets wounded and beaten down several times over…
Earnest feelings are stronger than any weapon…
Surely you should understand me choosing Kishi's opinion over the general opinion?
1 and 2 contradicts themselves..and they were surprised Neji was showing talent that you'll find in higher ranked Hyuga members at a genin age not that the taijutsu had never been seen in the whole Hyuga.
@bold except she could use 64 palms and also by databook portrayal Twin lion fists is the hardest application of gentle fist shown in the manga so she could have been training to master that and the other gentle fist applications she showed.
I see...
Gentle fist Taijutsu is all about parrying attacks and evading..Neji and Hiashi definitely trained in taijutsu with Hinata for over 2 years...Hinata's parrying, evasive circular movements, and reaction timing all amped by Kurama chakra gets a boost and yet she is below CE Neji's level? lol man...that's intense.
Why exactly? While mentally registering what was happening, she was already moving into position after ascertaining impact point of 2 of the spikes and entered said position. That's over 2 actions taken in a split second and accomplished faster than Naruto could raise his head up and faster than Hiashi could mentally register what was happening and think of an opinion.
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A reaction feat on this scale and you still place her below CE Neji? She wasn't even Kurama amped.
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There's no way they could have sustained the injuries while inside Katsuyu so logically they sustained them before Katsuyu covered them. Hinata appears much more better off than the others meaning she probably kept herself safe long enough from debris and a force she could not see till Katsuyu was able to cover her.
It could be argued against though hence the reason i call it a possible reaction feat.
Using this logic though, does the fact that Neji can't use the twin lion fists despite seeing it and being a genius mean Hinata has better CC than him? But if this is the case, shouldn't Kaiten be nothing for her to do?
It says Hyuga ability and even goes as far as generalizing with 'their'. Hyuga ability is chakra control and using this, they form many applications which i believe is what you're looking for here. Except you believe the chakra control that is being hailed is just the ability to put chakra in their palms? Medical Ninjas can do that i believe.
Yes Hinata has all of Hyuga ability by virtue of being born a Hyuga. But -as at war arc- she wasn't perfect in using every Hyuga application of their abilities.
Rotation, 64 palms, twin lion fists, air palm, body blow are all jyuken based and as such are applications of the gentle fist style...an ability that only Hyuga possess.
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neosmith500
Active member
Actually , Lee moved so fast he kicked Gaara simultanously with the surrounding explosion , with the middle area being Gaara's and Lee's location.
Gaara was kicked through smoke , it doesn't make any sense for Gaara's location to have been untouched when he was so close to Lee.
Did i say that tho? , if i did then pardon my choice of words lol.
Unlike Naruto Lee doesn't have a Shield of Chakra that he can use to clash with Kaiten so his physical attacks would get easily deflected without a problem or explosion , but it doesnt change the fact that he's physically stronger than Naruto based on raw feats right? especially considering that Neji was able to physically clash with Naruto head on , somthing that he could not do against Gated Lee.
His shunshin is strong enough to destoy a good portion of the area and his speed is too fast for Hinata to stop , but sorry for my wording.
Yes Byakugan can , but it doesn't proof that Hinata physically can keep up with movement as fast as 4th gated lee , does it?
Interesting , first time iv ever seen such a statement , does this mean CE Hinata could defeat Weighted Lee based on this???
All Neji did war redirct her attacks while blocking her points but hey , kishi
Sure lol.
I meant talent , again sorry for the wording.
I meant during the War and could u show proof of the bold? because based on the Manga , Wall Palm>>>Kaiten>>64 palms>>>Twin Lion fist>>>>Air palm in difficulty to learn/master.
I never included Amped Hinata in my thoughts regarding that quote tho only Base growth lol
Yes its a great reaction feat but it isn't enough.
He still has feats that surpass that even in the CE so yes by feats he's above her.
I cant really debate with what ifs lol.
We lreally have no proof that Neji cant use twin lion fist unless u think Hiashi cant use it too? , Neji's talent alone would easily allow him to learn it if hinata could so i dont see the correlation.
Having the potential to do them doesn't mean she could so from birth or later simply because she has the potential , i need proof that hinata mastered Jyuken to the point where she can do it lol.
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Isn't that like smoke/dust that accompanied Lee there because of the speed at which he was running? We clearly see the dust on the sides but the middle is clear probably because of the wind caused by Lee's movement carrying the dust along with him.
It doesn't make any sense either that Lee was able to connect with Gaara's chin in a straight line if Gaara's balance had been off-set.
lol no you didn't..but saying Lee destroys the earth below Hinata and Neji before he even gets there is implying that in a way lol
What raw feats? Destroying the ground? because that Naruto could do it too.
Second bold...Prelims Neji and Finals Neji are different. There is a 3 month training gap between them. 5th gated Lee was hinted to be able to defeat prelims Neji not chuunin finals Neji. There's nothing to suggest Prelims Neji could keep up with cloaked Naruto.
You've said this yourself many times..'Byakugan can anticipate shunshin' and air palm is a ready made counter for it.
Haha lmao.. Well to be fair the databook profile specifically says 'A scene where Hi...' not like he meant she fought on par the whole match..that would just be lying on a pathological level XDInteresting , first time iv ever seen such a statement , does this mean CE Hinata could defeat Weighted Lee based on this???
All Neji did war redirct her attacks while blocking her points but hey , kishi
It's a shame i can't find the raws though as i believe the scene it would have been referring to is
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. Neji got tagged no matter how you look at it. Nice reaction man. It's the reason why i even chose to take up a Hinata argument with you in the first place..Trying this with any other member is sure to bring me abuses xD
Now i understand why people target Hinata fans in vs threads. Most people that defend Hinata are trolls close to that fatale user's level...i say close because no one can reach that level.. but geez they should at least hold out a little patience to see if others have genuine points xD
KGB Kakuzu is the only member i've come across who when defending Hinata (logically) got logical counters and responses..Not Hinata is a fodder..a house wife etc xD
You meant during the war? She did use 64 palms in the war right? I'm not sure what you mean.
Juuho Soshiken
Strong will held in the fists!!
Its form is double lion heads!!
A secret high-level juuken technique, taught only to the main family of the Hyuuga clan. By changing the shape of chakra released from both hands, [the user] greatly increases reach and destructive power. The arms become entirely like lions which drain the chakra network of those they touch.
Because it will fail at even the slightest mistake in chakra control, it is extremely difficult to learn this ability, which is a feat that requires the Byakugan.
Strong will held in the fists!!
Its form is double lion heads!!
A secret high-level juuken technique, taught only to the main family of the Hyuuga clan. By changing the shape of chakra released from both hands, [the user] greatly increases reach and destructive power. The arms become entirely like lions which drain the chakra network of those they touch.
Because it will fail at even the slightest mistake in chakra control, it is extremely difficult to learn this ability, which is a feat that requires the Byakugan.
I haven't seen the databook translation for wall palm but i have seen the translations for others. None of the others are referred to as high level techniques and none have any hints showing difficulty while learning them like twin lion fists. Wall palm should be difficult though as Hiashi could do it with both hands while Hinata and Neji couldn't so i guess it could be up there also. But Twin lions is specified to be extremely difficult to learn. Kaiten is orally taught btw.
So by translations it seems Wall palm/twin Lion fists > 64 palms (as you have to map distance and everything onto a divination hexagram formation + high speed combo + called a deadly taijutsu) > Kaiten (orally taught) > Air palm
@bold Neo-chan
wease: You acknowledge it as a great reaction feat 
underlined..lol. Okay let me try this again.
We have
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. Here, Kido had not yet found out exactly where Neji's blindspot was and just sent a barrage of attacks. The spiders are much more slower than the daggers as we can see that's why none of them tagged Neji but he does get tagged by 2 fast daggers when Kido wasn't yet aiming at his blindspot
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. Neji's dodging here is awesome btw but contrary to what you and I assumed, these weren't point blank attacks seeing as they came from well over 50m.I believe the spider Neji gentle palmed had those daggers already inside it? If that's the case, this is more of a point blank attack.
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. And as we can see, Neji gets tagged multiple times when his blindspot wasn't being targeted. Proof of this is Kido entering level 2 immediately after that barrage and targeting his blindspot
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..
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Now look at the speed of the Juubi spikes
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And the volume
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Some of the spikes are small enough to enter a hyuga's blindspot. Granted they aren't coming from all angles but look at the shinobi in the bottom panel of this scan compared to Juubi's hand
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The spikes would have definitely covered a wide range in proportion to a human. They are also fast enough to breach War arc Neji's Kaiten showing their speed > Kido's daggers. Yet Hinata was able to come out unscathed from this without Kaiten.
Again, no one was protecting her as i showed you in that other thread.. and if kishi wanted to show how fast and difficult they are to evade, he'll have shown Hinata being saved not Sakura who wasn't close to that particular spot where the main action was going down lol.
By portrayal, Hinata came out of that situation with only her base evasive speed and reactions.. The spikes weren't sent at the same level..some were faster than the others which means evading one and turning left or right could put her in the path of another. And if one for any reason entered her blindspot she'll be dead because of the speed of the spikes.
SRA Neji got tagged by daggers that were slower, not aimed at his blindspot and paled in quantity to the juubi spikes..and granted the possibility of spikes entering Hinata's blindspot are low-mid, the portrayal has shown evasive/reactions at least similar in a way to SRA Neji's.
So again, do you still think Hinata's reactions are below CE Neji's level?
lol..i'm not sure if you noticed but i posted scans there..1 and 2..and if you did see them, just tell me what you think lol..Possible reaction feat or not? :lol
Using this logic, we have no proof War arc Hinata can't do kaiten either. Kaiten is originally taught in the main clan so i also don't see why Hinata couldn't be able to use it. The fact she didn't use it for the spikes holds no weight when we know for a fact we only saw two kaiten's and other Hyuga survived the spike wave meaning they used basic evasive and reaction speeds. Something Hiashi and Neji could have used too if not for the fact they wanted to protect Naruto who couldn't move.
lol the translation clearly says Hyuga ability though. It literally means the Hyuga have the ability to release chakra from their tenketsu does it not? It even groups them by saying 'their'
Also i think you're comparing Hyuga and Uchiha. Uchiha's have MS but no MS is the same with another i believe and as such X MS doesn't have abilities Y MS has.
A hyuga who is taught all the applications would be able to do them all don't you think? There are no separate powers in Hyuga just varying ability on assimilating something faster just like in real life schools :lol
Example
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The Hyuga technique that old man is referring to is Kaiten. He implies the Kaiten made facing the Hyuga in battle tough..meaning many Hyuuga showcased kaiten.. and as we know, Neji wasn't born the last time the Hyuga's went to war :lol
And then we have Hinata sort of mastering gentle fist to the extent she's revered for it
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Hope it isn't a bother debating this and your Neji vs Naruto thread though..that one seems incredibly tough.
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Ambivalence
Active member
How is it a great reaction feat? This doesn't showcase Hinata's reaction speed, at the most it proves that she isn't random Chuunin fodder-level, as in the ones who got instantly staked when the Juubi started firing them, which I thought was obvious, but still means nothing.neosmith500 said:
- The "2 actions taken in a split second" is stuff that has been shown by Part 1 characters, plus Hinata's thought followed by movement wasn't split-second at all. It's called mental followed by physical reaction. You can't have one without the other, as then it's not a proper reaction feat or an outright failure to react. That sentence is just over-complicating the simple fact that Hinata just decided to be a meat-shield for Naruto after reaching the same conclusion Hiashi did (Vacuum Palm wouldn't make it in time). There's absolutely nothing noteworthy about it, as Neji pretty much did all of that offscreen. Now, if Hinata Vacuum Palmed those stakes despite Hiashi stating she wouldn't be able to do so in time? Then you'd have something to go on.
- Naruto was down on the ground, out of SM and low on chakra, plus he only raised his head after he saw Hinata trying to sacrifice herself to save him, which is why he was surprised. That had nothing to do with his reflexes to the incoming attack. Even if that weren't true, all you're saying is that Hinata > exhausted base Naruto in reactions.
- Lmao, Hiashi could obviously mentally register what was going on, as he had a whole panel where he analyzed what was about to happen, plus was fast enough to realize that Vacuum Palm wasn't an option, but obviously he wasn't the one who was supposed to do what happens next.
- After all this went on, Neji Shunshin'd (he wasn't anywhere to be seen in
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scan) to Naruto and Hinata's location and basically did the same as Hinata. With basic reading comprehension you can discern two things:1. Neji getting there just means he was meant to be sacrificed, and doesn't mean that he or Hinata have faster reactions than Hiashi (which your argument implies) or that Hiashi in any way would've failed to do the same Hinata did if he was in her position, or even more than that, considering "Neji and Hinata's VP won't make it in time.." somewhat implies he would have protected them efficiently if he were there.
2. If the pinpoint attack was deemed impossible to counter by someone superior to Hinata or Neji in all speed departments then that just means it was beyond both their skill to effectively evade/block without a death. Hypothetically, if JJ Madara blitzed and killed both Hinata and Neji without reaction it doesn't mean the two are equal in that department because they equally failed to react, it just means the offense was way too fast for either of their reaction times. Kushina is also nowhere near as fast as Minato in reactions, yet both she and him pretty much did the same Hinata and Neji did by acting as a sacrifice.
If your argument held true a number of false conclusions could be reached, like Hinata = War Arc Neji > Hiashi in reactions, which is nowhere near true. I don't see those stakes being that much or at all faster than
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, by the way, which SRA Neji managed to counter.
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neosmith500
Active member
It also makes less sense that Gaara's balance would be fine after such destruction around him , even so it doesn't matter because Lee can still alter Hinata's balance by simply running around her.
Well he can , simply running around her flexing his shunshin is enough to do so , not that he'd need to tho.
His physical feats surpasses Naruto , but i'd put KN0 Naruto above Unweighted Lee and Sasuke in speed and power , 4th Gated Lee is above him.
Its a one month gap but i agree about him being a little stronger but saying ntn suggest that prelims Neji could not keep up with Cloaked Naruto is baseless because a one month gap would not be enough to advance his reaction that far especially when he probably spent most of that time on Kaiten.
At best i'd put Cloaked Naruto's speed a single point or 2 above Unweighted Lee's based on the power of his chakra which increases his shunshin greatly , but by portrayal Unweighted Lee level of speed was ntn but low diff for Neji to handle , so at best Cloaked Naruto would likely have to be between 1st and 3rd gate imo which makes it unlikely he'd be able to blitz prelims Neji.
It can but that doesn't stop them from getting blitzed by superior speeds and air-palm is useless if the enemy is too fast and im sure that Hinata wont be able to intercept him.This would only be possible if Byakugan had precog to anticiapte which direction the person to move to in case the speed is too much lol.
Lol i know wat he meant lol yea he did seem to have gotten slightly touched but since no damage was dealt it appears that only his cloths was slightly graced by the side of her hand.
Lol u make it sound like it happens on a regular LOL.
LOL , the problem is due to lack of genuine feats on Hinata's side , so most people dont have time for theory based debates especially when putting her up against certain characters.
Yea but this was after she failed and remarked that she couldn't do it.
Ntn suggest That its harder to learn than 64 Palms or Kaiten , again based on Manga fact Hinata learned twin lion ages ago and all the time that passed between then she still didn't have faith that she was ready to do 64 palms until Neji's chkra ghost payed her a visit and gave her some wisdom , while on the other hand she was clearly ready for Twin lions long before the war.
-Also Kaiten being orally thought , Neji learning it on his own and Hinata not having such a useful technique of her clan implies strongly that Kaiten>>>>>Twin Lion in level needed to be at in order to learn.
Twin Lion being>>>>>64 palms and Kaiten doesn't make any sense based on Hinata , it implies that Pain arc Hinata was already capable of pulling both those techs with ease which doesn't make sense at all unless u think Hinata decided not to even try to learn these techs and just decided to sit back after gaining Twin lions LOL.
Time , distance , numbers , angle of attacks and simple observation shows that it was literally point-blank in ur face range , he literally had to count each and every dagger instantly while they were shot in waves from every direction which means he most likely pulled more than 35 dodges in the span of no more than 3 seconds or even less.@bold Neo-chan
underlined..lol. Okay let me try this again.
We haveYou must be registered for see links. Here, Kido had not yet found out exactly where Neji's blindspot was and just sent a barrage of attacks. The spiders are much more slower than the daggers as we can see that's why none of them tagged Neji but he does get tagged by 2 fast daggers when Kido wasn't yet aiming at his blindspotYou must be registered for see links. Neji's dodging here is awesome btw but contrary to what you and I assumed, these weren't point blank attacks seeing as they came from well over 50m.
-He evaded the daggers at point-blank range so the distance is irrelevant when considering the numbers.
I'v been asking for a little help in trying to gauge the feat fully since unlike most similar type feats where the exact timing is unknown , the time can be estimated by the type of attacks>>>distance and how long each dagger would take to intercept Neji.
No they weren't shot point blank but were shot simultaneously with the spider falling on him , Neji in that case had to pull more than 30 dodges in less time it takes for each Kunai to reach him when they were already no more than 4 feet away from him , then consider that he noticed them last minute and had a surprise web trap to deal with beforehand and it becomes impossible to even begin to compare Hinata's feats to his.
The time it takes for those Daggers to reach him at such a close range would take no more than a second , consider that he had to first cut the chakra webs that was about to fall on him and restrict his movements , then consider the fact that he pulled more than 20 dodges in that time frame based on the number of daggers and it becomes clear that this far outclasses any reaction feat shown by hinata.
The breached Kaiten after raining down on it for wat seems to be a minute or at best long enough for Neji's spin to slow down.
-Again , u cant keep trying to bring off-screen reactions and try to deduce anything , unless ur gonna put everyone on the same reaction level as her too.
Its off panel bro , we have no idea wat took place.
I guess the same can be said for Naruto along with every other ninja close by ?? unless we have feats of exactly wat she went through and how she survived , it can be used.
Even so that feat would still pale in comparison to Neji's by far the spikes only came from above and not all angles so her blindspot would be good unlike Neji's.
Illogical , Daggers coming at u from all angles that were already 3 feet away from u before u noticed them would be way faster that the spikes especially considering the webs he had to cut before dodging which was already falling on top of him , so literally no comparison Neji dominates her by feats.
Yes , im even more confident now lol.
I saw them but as i said i cant argue with possible feats , both were injured im not sure wat to think about the scans at all lol.
Hinata with Kaiten would never have been almost killed by zetsu , needing Naruto to block simple sword strikes , no feats of Kaiten in the Last , if Hinata had kaiten then kishi would've showed it to us when she needed it at some point in P2.
No reason why she shouldn't have 64 palms too much as shown she only learnt it in the war , no feats equal no use.
-Also if u assume Naruto was bein protected by Neji and Hiashi's Kaiten's then why cant u assume hinata was too since she was near him????
Having the ability to gain 3T on ur sharingan doesn't mean u already have 3T on ur Sharingan , having the ability to release chakra from all points doesn't mean u already can , i could go on but i lost almost half my post not too long ago.
Its noted in manga that u need mastery of Jyuken to be able to release chkra from every tenketsu , where is ur proof that Hinata mastered jyuken when she barely could pull 64 palms after years of training? also twin lion is irrelevant since it releases chakra from the arms , so i need proof hinata mastered jyuken.
Lol that old dude was likely referring to Hiashi's father and the rest of the Main fam , no where am i seeing proof that Hinata has Kaiten lol.
I dont know if this is referring to Hamura chakra power-up i keep hearing about , but if so then it becomes understandable and irrelevant due to such a boost bein granted to her since that her after the Last who isn't to topic of discussion atm LOL.
Its no problem Lol i like debating so its fun for me , i started the thread in order to get help on gauging Neji's reaction feats and didn't want to make it in the Discussion section LOL
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First, thanks for the input man..
@underlined if you look at that scan, you'll see she's already on the move as she's thinking it..That's more simultaneous than 2 actions following each other don't you think?
@second bold..Those spikes were aimed at Naruto looking to kill him. The spikes were undoubtedly fast seeing as spikes sent from a juubi hand at a much higher height impacted the ground
This shows Hinata reacting to a nigh instant attack. That's reaction and possibly movement speed to follow seeing as she seems to have fast movement lines drawn on her in that bottom panel. Do you really not see anything noteworthy here?
Another way Kishi could have possibly drawn that scan is.. still keep up with the portrayal of the spikes having nigh instant speed and show the spikes actually touch down first and bring up dust and smoke. When the smoke clears, it's revealed Hinata was shielding Naruto and Neji has been impaled.
It's more likely Kishi showed us in slow motion what happened because all that happened there with Hinata and Neji had to have happened very fast since those spikes have nigh instant speed and were even much closer to the ground than the initial spike wave that shows the nigh instant speed they have.
So like i said... though my argument is implying it, that isn't what i'm going for as i'm only arguing to show Hinata's fast reaction feat.
I like the Madara hypothesis though and though this is unrelated, i'm curious to know who you think has faster reactions between Minato and kakashi?
@underlined...can you prove that? Seeing as Kushina is basically featless, i'm not sure how you can claim that.
@bold is an opinion that can be proven false.
- I doubt that arrow was fast seeing as Kido was ready to manipulate it into Neji's blindspot. If it was insta-fast like the juubi spikes, then Kido won't have the chance to manipulate it into a moving Neji's blindspot.
- There's nothing to suggest the arrow could breach Kaiten when we have the juubi spikes breaching it.
The smoke thing is easily explained...Lee's speed brought the smoke that erupted when he was running along with him to Gaara's position. And i believe in the next scan, the smoke doubled.
Gaara's head is kicked above smoke and his body looks to be clear of the smoke in this scan
Again, Byakugan can track high speed movement. Running around means nothing. Lee's movement was not teleporting but extremely fast running. Except he fits himself into Hinata's blindspot, Hinata is never losing sight of him..If he instantly decides to change direction, she sees it as at the end of the day, it's all still movement. He's forever in her line of sight.
And here, air palm comes into play. A base air palm is enough to push back a human bigger than Lee..now imagine what a faster and more powerful kurama amped airpalm does to him.
Your claim Hinata learnt twin lion fists ages ago can't be proven can it? We see it for the first time during pain's assault Chapter 437 and i believe the 4th world war arc started chapter 484? Immediately after the Kage summit. You can't give a time frame Hinata showing when Hinata could have learnt it can you?
What i'm saying is i don't especially think there's an order to learning the hyuga techniques. You learn those you feel you are capable of learning and complement your abilities well. You also think Kaiten is a tougher technique than 64 palms. Again, Kaiten is orally taught. For 64 palms you need fast movements for the high speed combo + learn how to map the divination hexagram formation with your byakugan...That shows more difficulty if i must say.
In the second scan, he even calls the landscape after that initial spike wave a 'landscape of death'. Note that none of the dead shinobi died from the group of spikes that killed Neji because that spike wave was concentrated on Naruto alone.
And then we have Kishi imply in the bottom left panel that most shinobi survived because they were behind Kitsuchi's sand wall
Hinata wasn't protected by the Kaiten's that protected Naruto, no one was protecting her and she wasn't behind Kitsuchi's sand wall. It should be easy to grasp what happened isn't it?
There is no point in showing Sakura being saved when she wasn't close to the main action. Hinata was a ready made feat-less damsel he could easily put in distress and she was there at ground zero but Kishi didn't show her being saved. He only showed her emerging from the chaos without Kaiten. She would have needed high evasive reaction feats to accomplish that. There is only one portrayal from this lol
@bold..You don't think the kaiten's were to protect Naruto? Anyway, she wasn't close to the kaiten's protective range
Those are spikes behind and around Hiashi, Neji and Naruto.. no sign of Hinata.
Unlocking a Sharingan definitely means you're going to activate 3T....Having the ability to release chakra doesn't mean you have the ability to do that from birth but you would be able to use that ability as you grow older. The Hyuga as a whole are renowned for their chakra control. Chakra control is easier for them.
Neji had mastered the gentle fist style to an extent that he was able to use its application of 64 palms in the CE. According to what i think you are implying, it seems you're saying CE Neji had mastered the gentle fist style on Hiashi's level. Is this what you are implying?
Again, the techniques are all applications of gentle fist(Jyuken) without some form of mastery of the gentle fist, you won't be able to use the applications. It's why it's portrayed only they can channel chakra into the inner coils of their opponents and most of their techniques have 'Gentle Fist Art' in their names...
You say Hinata spent years training to master 64 palms but how can you prove that? She could have spent majority of that time training other aspects in her arsenal. Using this logic means Neji spent over 2 years learning the Air palm alone right?
The Hyuga as a whole is equal unlike the Uchiha where they have separate powers. A hyuga can learn all the gentle fist applications if they are taught. Neji just happened to be a genius who could figure it out on his own but if there were no branch/main family stuff, all hyuga would be able to use rotation..
ps...i'm not using that as a fact to say Hinata could use rotation in the war arc btw.
I think we've strayed far away from the main point though which is if kurama amped Hinata defeats 4th gated Lee.
If you enter vs threads involving Hinata, you'll see implications that she still has genin abilities. Not everyone seems to agree her war arc self is at least mid-high chuunin level.
@bold..Very well then at least give me a small list of names of the part 1 characters who replicated that feat and weren't Jounin or possessed Jounin abilities if not you're confirming my claim that that was a Jounin level reaction feat.
@underlined if you look at that scan, you'll see she's already on the move as she's thinking it..That's more simultaneous than 2 actions following each other don't you think?
@second bold..Those spikes were aimed at Naruto looking to kill him. The spikes were undoubtedly fast seeing as spikes sent from a juubi hand at a much higher height impacted the ground
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. The spikes aimed at Naruto were shot at a closer distance than the initial spike wave and Hinata was able to position herself between Naruto and the spikes with time to spare seeing as Neji was able to still come in between Hinata and the spikes at the very last moment.
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This shows Hinata reacting to a nigh instant attack. That's reaction and possibly movement speed to follow seeing as she seems to have fast movement lines drawn on her in that bottom panel. Do you really not see anything noteworthy here?
Another way Kishi could have possibly drawn that scan is.. still keep up with the portrayal of the spikes having nigh instant speed and show the spikes actually touch down first and bring up dust and smoke. When the smoke clears, it's revealed Hinata was shielding Naruto and Neji has been impaled.
It's more likely Kishi showed us in slow motion what happened because all that happened there with Hinata and Neji had to have happened very fast since those spikes have nigh instant speed and were even much closer to the ground than the initial spike wave that shows the nigh instant speed they have.
I honestly didn't mean to compare it as a reaction there but looking back on that post it looks like i did :lol but when i look closely at it, are you trying to imply that if Hinata didn't go there, Naruto wouldn't have raised his head to see what was going down? I'm pretty sure being exhausted and low on chakra has nothing to do with raising one's head. A far more exhausted pt1 Naruto with lower stamina stats was able to use his head to move after his fight with Gaara.
Hiashi used two panels to mentally register what was going on though. @bold i agree..He was definitely closer to Naruto and Hinata than Neji was as Naruto and Hinata were literally behind him while Neji was no where in sight.. but for some reason, he didn't attempt to save them.
I whole heartedly agree. Yes my argument portrays Neji and Hinata having faster reactions than Hiashi but i do not believe that. This scenario is one of the biggest plot induced scenario's in the series imo as Hiashi definitely could have shunshined himself and saved them both..i mean they were literally both behind him while Neji was no where to be seen..But it just had to be Neji no matter what.
So like i said... though my argument is implying it, that isn't what i'm going for as i'm only arguing to show Hinata's fast reaction feat.
@bold is wrong. Hiashi and Hinata made their analysis based on Naruto's safety. Naruto could not move and Hinata obviously isn't physically strong to carry Naruto and move away. Nothing implies Hinata couldn't evade the spikes when we already see her reacting and moving before they impacted and the very fact that Neji himself shunshined into the spikes negates your claim that Neji can't evade them.
I like the Madara hypothesis though and though this is unrelated, i'm curious to know who you think has faster reactions between Minato and kakashi?
@underlined...can you prove that? Seeing as Kushina is basically featless, i'm not sure how you can claim that.
Interesting. Again, I totally agree on the fact that Hiashi was restricted so, no. Hinata and Neji aren't faster in reactions than Hiashi. But i'm not sure how you can come to a conclusion that Hinata = War arc Neji in reactions from this? I like it though(reason i started with interesting) but there's nothing to suggest Neji wouldn't have done better were he in Hinata's position. I'm only showcasing Hinata's fast reaction feat here which is being downplayed hard.
@bold is an opinion that can be proven false.
- I doubt that arrow was fast seeing as Kido was ready to manipulate it into Neji's blindspot. If it was insta-fast like the juubi spikes, then Kido won't have the chance to manipulate it into a moving Neji's blindspot.
- There's nothing to suggest the arrow could breach Kaiten when we have the juubi spikes breaching it.
I'm not sure how you can claim it doesn't make sense though when it is actually shown Gaara isn't off balance. If he was, Lee wouldn't have kicked him upwards tangent to Gaara's static standing in a straight line. If Gaara's head could elongate, then you'll see that is head goes up in a straight line because his body would be standing :lol
The smoke thing is easily explained...Lee's speed brought the smoke that erupted when he was running along with him to Gaara's position. And i believe in the next scan, the smoke doubled.
Gaara's head is kicked above smoke and his body looks to be clear of the smoke in this scan
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. But in the next scan, the smoke increased in size seeing as Gaara's whole body emerged from smoke
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. The increase in smoke is definitely correlative with Lee jumping off the ground (destroying it and causing smoke) after he got Gaara airborne.Again, Byakugan can track high speed movement. Running around means nothing. Lee's movement was not teleporting but extremely fast running. Except he fits himself into Hinata's blindspot, Hinata is never losing sight of him..If he instantly decides to change direction, she sees it as at the end of the day, it's all still movement. He's forever in her line of sight.
And here, air palm comes into play. A base air palm is enough to push back a human bigger than Lee..now imagine what a faster and more powerful kurama amped airpalm does to him.
Again, what physical feats are you referring to? Wrecking the ground?
@bold..a little bit stronger? After the konoha crush, Naruto and Jiraiya went to look for Tsunade. The whole search and bringing her back to Konoha couldn't have taken that long..probably 2 weeks at best as it's hard to fathom politically a nation without a president for a whole month. The Sasuke retrieval arc happened shortly after. You then saying a little bit stronger is sort of implying there's little difference between SRA Neji and Chuunin prelims Neji which i can't agree with.
This is based on your opinion that Neji focused on nothing but Kaiten for a whole month..which i can't agree with. He improved greatly between chuunin exam finals and SRA and by portrayal that time period is at the most also one month..I see no reason he was able to improve that great over one month and only increase a little in a previous one month time frame where training most of the time in preparation to face Naruto is what he did.
Superior speeds is something they'll be unable to track right? Neji was portrayed to be able to follow Lee's movements in the prelims and if he had air palm, then i'm sure it would have counted for something as its an extremely fast strike in its own right as stated in the databook.
Yeahhh..no. If his clothes were graced, he wouldn't have ''ugh'ed''. And besides at that point, her gentle fist was off.
Because it does xD You don't enter Hinata threads then xD
True..but it's a shame really. When i first started using the forums in '13, theories were the order of the day.
She stopped briefly..failed is more like stopping entirely..The brief period of reflection was short and 64 palms is a continuous high speed combo attack..which means if she stopped for as long as you're presuming, the juubi clone could have either attacked or moved out of her range.
@bold even the fact that it was referred to as a high level secret Jyuken technique? A title the other two don't have and it also specifically states it is extremely difficult to master..which wasn't said about the other two? those look like suggestions to me lol
Your claim Hinata learnt twin lion fists ages ago can't be proven can it? We see it for the first time during pain's assault Chapter 437 and i believe the 4th world war arc started chapter 484? Immediately after the Kage summit. You can't give a time frame Hinata showing when Hinata could have learnt it can you?
The Hyuga we saw in the juubi arc all used Air palm proving that is the most useful technique of their clan. And you say based on Hinata lol..well then based on Neji, Air palm > 64 palms and Kaiten.
What i'm saying is i don't especially think there's an order to learning the hyuga techniques. You learn those you feel you are capable of learning and complement your abilities well. You also think Kaiten is a tougher technique than 64 palms. Again, Kaiten is orally taught. For 64 palms you need fast movements for the high speed combo + learn how to map the divination hexagram formation with your byakugan...That shows more difficulty if i must say.
Well if 2 cars were trying to hit you from 50m out, then you'll be able to quickly map out an evasive plan if you're composed enough. Neji saw them coming from 50m out and could have mapped out evasive maneuvers for at least most of them before they got close to him. A point blank attack is something aimed/shot at you directly in your face. The daggers came from 50m out.
Ohh..then this is still more of a point blank attack than the previous one seeing as despite the fact Neji's byakugan was active, he didn't see the daggers until they were within 4 feet of him. However though, how he reacted to this point blank attack happened off panel so we don't know exactly what he did. He could have jumped like he did
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with a smaller scale all round attack and still got caught due to the daggers he didn't see in his blindspot before he jumped.The minute thing doesn't go with what the manga shows.
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,
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. His kaiten was breached.But i am sure it can sort of be used since Kishi showed people die from that initial spike wave that wasn't concentrated on Naruto alone
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In the second scan, he even calls the landscape after that initial spike wave a 'landscape of death'. Note that none of the dead shinobi died from the group of spikes that killed Neji because that spike wave was concentrated on Naruto alone.
And then we have Kishi imply in the bottom left panel that most shinobi survived because they were behind Kitsuchi's sand wall
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Hinata wasn't protected by the Kaiten's that protected Naruto, no one was protecting her and she wasn't behind Kitsuchi's sand wall. It should be easy to grasp what happened isn't it?
There is no point in showing Sakura being saved when she wasn't close to the main action. Hinata was a ready made feat-less damsel he could easily put in distress and she was there at ground zero but Kishi didn't show her being saved. He only showed her emerging from the chaos without Kaiten. She would have needed high evasive reaction feats to accomplish that. There is only one portrayal from this lol
If you look at the angle at which the spikes impaled Neji, you would see that a hyuga only needs to turn their backs towards the spike waves once to have one enter their blindspot and with the nigh instant speed of the spikes, that's death.
I don't know man..lol.. The juubi spikes are portrayed to have great speed and we don't know what happened to the web that cut Neji. The web only restricted him from using Kaiten not restrict his movements so he could have jumped out and the daggers did the cutting themselves? If the daggers can't cut the web, then doesn't that mean the web could have served as protection too?
lol It's just Katsuyu is portrayed as extremely durable so there's no way i see them acquiring those injuries while they were inside her...i do understand what you mean though as i myself am iffy about it that's why i'm using the word 'possible' lol..I'll be removing this from the discussion now ^^
Well Neji who has Kaiten shouldn't have been hugged by Zetsu either. Of all their techniques, Kaiten obviously uses the most chakra and i don't think it would have been a smart move for them to use Kaiten in that squabble that looked like it was endless. And having 3 Zetsu gang up on either Neji, Kiba or Shino to introduce Naruto when there was a female there would be very un-Kishi like.
@bold..You don't think the kaiten's were to protect Naruto? Anyway, she wasn't close to the kaiten's protective range
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Those are spikes behind and around Hiashi, Neji and Naruto.. no sign of Hinata.
Are you trying to imply that Hinata would not be able to do the One Body Blow?
Unlocking a Sharingan definitely means you're going to activate 3T....Having the ability to release chakra doesn't mean you have the ability to do that from birth but you would be able to use that ability as you grow older. The Hyuga as a whole are renowned for their chakra control. Chakra control is easier for them.
Neji had mastered the gentle fist style to an extent that he was able to use its application of 64 palms in the CE. According to what i think you are implying, it seems you're saying CE Neji had mastered the gentle fist style on Hiashi's level. Is this what you are implying?
Again, the techniques are all applications of gentle fist(Jyuken) without some form of mastery of the gentle fist, you won't be able to use the applications. It's why it's portrayed only they can channel chakra into the inner coils of their opponents and most of their techniques have 'Gentle Fist Art' in their names...
You say Hinata spent years training to master 64 palms but how can you prove that? She could have spent majority of that time training other aspects in her arsenal. Using this logic means Neji spent over 2 years learning the Air palm alone right?
I wasn't showing proof that Hinata has Kaiten lol...I was trying to make it clear it's not a difficult technique for Hyuga. If the branch family were allowed to learn it, they'll be able to use it too. Its a difficult/impossible technique for non-hyuga because they don't train in the gentle fist art nor have the chakra control the Hyuga are famed for.
Lmao Hamura chakra power up xD Even if you get more chakra, i don't think it can help you master a technique. lol...I know it's irrelevant but i was just showing you that a future version of Hinata in a more peaceful period has mastered the gentle fist to the extent she's revered for it. it's probably an indication she has mastered all it's applications.
The Hyuga as a whole is equal unlike the Uchiha where they have separate powers. A hyuga can learn all the gentle fist applications if they are taught. Neji just happened to be a genius who could figure it out on his own but if there were no branch/main family stuff, all hyuga would be able to use rotation..
ps...i'm not using that as a fact to say Hinata could use rotation in the war arc btw.
I think we've strayed far away from the main point though which is if kurama amped Hinata defeats 4th gated Lee.
Ohh that's cool XD i'm not sure i can participate in two full on debates XD
Megax Rocker7
Active member
Part 1 Sasuke managed to keep up with Kakashi, Lee shat on 2t Sasuke, Lee can go 5th gate, simple math leads to the answer.