Why is Everyone Surprised about the Anime being Canon??

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

The one thing you should never do is presume; filler is not a made-up Western concept. Filler is a fan-made synonym for "anime adaptation original content". It denotes material not authorized by the creator (and Kishi does care). It's important to make the distinction because it doesn't originate from the author's hand, and he doesn't get a say and so, it has no place in the storyline and more than this, often contradicts canon material.

Kishimoto expressed his discontent with the implementation of kunai guns used in the 1st Movie. Furthermore, that very same movie featured cars, film and the like... stuff that contradicts Kishi's ideas. And using the picture of Raiga doesn't amount to much, since anime features implemented into the manga is totally different from anime created material, since the author chose to add him in.

Kishi may have disapproved of that one small feature but ultimately it doesn't matter if he doesn't sign off every aspect personally. It's not just his world now and he and his team of editors had a large part to play in making that happen. Novels are proven to be part of the canon. If you embrace the novels they include events of Blood Prison, therefore you have to also accept the movies as canon.

Ultimately it doesn't matter very much since it's all just Naruto stories and the world was founded by one, developed into something that could go public by a team and then expanded into the product it is today by many. That's how licenses work i'd say. My point is that people trying to rule out what did and didnt happen to obsessive detail ruins a huge chunk of the series for themselves and others that listen to them. I can understand real life, news or actual history...but what's the point in invalidating fiction?

Also I don't really understand your point about Raiga. The fact that Kishi chose to add him is what makes the point make sense. One example that Kishi really doesn't see the world being exclusively of his own invention. He's much looser than we are about it.

 

[Holy God]

Yeah, we know the definition

The point is that Kishimoto is NOT the only god-assigned auteur that this forum puts him on a pedestal as being. If you're talking debating in the VS section then...maybe discount anime feats but there's still no actual reason to do that. If it doesn't contradict what already exists then it only adds to this fictional world.

And even then! the 'canon' contradicts itself often too, so what does it actually matter and why should a line be drawn yknow?

Masashi Kishimoto is the only author of Naruto. Sure, he may get ideas or inspiration from other people, but he is the main person who must confirm and draw everything as he has done himself since the beginning. There's no problem with the anime having it's own additions since they are usually as interesting as any other part of the story, but it's just not part of the actual plot. It's simply no different than any other fan-fiction: regardless of whether or not they contradict the real story, they just cannot be.

The story rarely, if it even does at all, contradict itself.

 

[Monkey D Uchiha]

LOL! What the hell? You think Naruto fans aren't aware that Kishimoto had the assistance of editors, etc? You need to acknowledge the fact that there is a difference between canon and noncanon. The Naruto manga is canon; the Naruto anime isn't canon.

Every form of media have their own continuity, there is no such thing to determine which one is canon which ironically coming from Dragon ball super fan, every pieces has their own. The movie, manga, and the anime are all different. Doesn't matter which one is canon now does it?

 

[NextGenNinja]

Yet Kishi still "approves" any official licensed Naruto-related stuff since he holds the copyright and all that, so it's also unofficial to say that Kishi word is absolute when Kishi was never the single author to produce a single Naruto as a franchise. SP holds the contract so in their own right the anime has their own continuity whereas the manga has their own. You can't separate that.
Dragon ball super is one of the example.

Shonen jump or whatever owns the rights to naruto, they license all that anime crap iirc. @Bold, lol so there's more than one author of naruto? Kishimoto is the creator and he has the last say in his story, i know he has editors,etc but how the story goes is up to him.
Yeah, i guess you can say the anime has it's own continuity just like star wars. There's the EU and the canon storyline.

I'm not a dragon ball z fan so idk how that works.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

Masashi Kishimoto is the only author of Naruto. Sure, he may get ideas or inspiration from other people, but he is the main person who must confirm and draw everything as he has done himself since the beginning.

An editor came up with the idea for Sasuke. Kishi was going to make Hiruzen a dog...did you read the pilot manga?

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

The entire main conflict of the series was thought up by somebody else and ripped off Hunter x Hunter and DBZ among others. He's the main one sure- but crediting only his hand as the source of biblical auteur ownership is ridiculous, because he was never the sole author.

The story rarely, if it even does at all, contradict itself.

I can name a few, i'd even go as far to say that there's almost as many plotholes and contradictions as non-canon. Multiple ages have sparked controversy, Academy graduation dates, Minato's face on the Hokage Monument in the wrong eras, genjutsu working on a perfect jin, the iffy retcons caused by the Itachi is good plottwist, Oro remarking Kakashi's sharingan was 'new' etc

The entire timeline is arguably f*cked and Jiraiya/Minato/Nagato's events had to be readjusted after the retconned Obito twist.

All additional stories do is add to the world, never take away.
thanks for the sensible adult discussion btw, been a while since I had that on this site

 

[Illuminater]

How ignorant are you to believe that the filler episodes are canon? Remember when Sasuke joined the konoha police force? Do you treat that as canon? There is a disparity between canon and noncannon episodes my man...

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

How ignorant are you to believe that the filler episodes are canon? Remember when Sasuke joined the konoha police force? Do you treat that as canon? There is a disparity between canon and noncannon episodes my man...

Don't use the word ignorant when you don't even realise that was in the dreamworld and didn't literally happen. It's a contradiction-less story for entertainment that many fans enjoyed that doesn't conflict with anything. It's entertainment.

"This arc focuses on a novel written by Jiraiya in a dream within Tsunade's Infinite Tsukuyomi dream. In the novel, key aspects of Konohagakure and the shinobi world are different. It takes place early in-between the Kaguya Ōtsutsuki Strikes arc."

 

[Monkey D Uchiha]

Shonen jump or whatever owns the rights to naruto, they license all that anime crap iirc. @Bold, lol so there's more than one author of naruto? Kishimoto is the creator and he has the last say in his story, i know he has editors,etc but how the story goes is up to him.
Yeah, i guess you can say the anime has it's own continuity just like star wars. There's the EU and the canon storyline.

I'm not a dragon ball z fan so idk how that works.

SJ license the manga format not the anime, only if it got popular enough where they can open door for certain studio as exclusive bonus whether the author are determine to sign the contract for the SP to hold the right to produce the anime . I'm talking about the Anime Studio collaborate with the author work and incorporate their style within their own version, Kishi is not the only one to do it as a whole franchise.

 

[Joshutsu]

There are times when the term filler is appropriate. This is when it is random and does not occur relating to major things in the manga and when it reflects skills and feats we know a character does not have. There's tons of that.

As for me, I consider any 'filler' cannon that tries to expand on something that is happening in cannon. For example, i always considered this current anime stuff cannon because well it's happening based on something relevant in the manga and kishi can't back peddle and tell it differently after this.

 

[The Necromancer]

The one thing you should never do is presume; filler is not a made-up Western concept. Filler is a fan-made synonym for "anime adaptation original content". It denotes material not authorized by the creator (and Kishi does care). It's important to make the distinction because it doesn't originate from the author's hand, and he doesn't get a say and so, it has no place in the storyline and more than this, often contradicts canon material.

Kishimoto expressed his discontent with the implementation of kunai guns used in the 1st Movie. Furthermore, that very same movie featured cars, film and the like... stuff that contradicts Kishi's ideas. And using the picture of Raiga doesn't amount to much, since anime features implemented into the manga is totally different from anime created material, since the author chose to add him in.

Exactly this.

 

[NextGenNinja]

SJ license the manga format not the anime, only if it got popular enough where they can open door for certain studio as exclusive bonus whether the author are determine to sign the contract for the SP to hold the right to produce the anime . I'm talking about the Anime Studio collaborate with the author work and incorporate their style within their own version, Kishi is not the only one to do it as a whole franchise.

I don't know that whole process but naruto is owned by shueisha so i'm guessing SP is licensing naruto to do an anime. kishi probably has talked to the animation team but that still doesn't make the anime officially part of the story, unless you have sources that say kishi has outright said the anime is official? Yeah, i know kishi isn't the only one who's planned out the series, he's gotten advice from editors and others. Still you can't deny kishi is the creator and so his word is absolute.

 

[1000 Chirping Birds]

Kishi may have disapproved of that one small feature but ultimately it doesn't matter if he doesn't sign off every aspect personally. It's not just his world now and he and his team of editors had a large part to play in making that happen. Novels are proven to be part of the canon. If you embrace the novels they include events of Blood Prison, therefore you have to also accept the movies as canon.

Ultimately it doesn't matter very much since it's all just Naruto stories and the world was founded by one, developed into something that could go public by a team and then expanded into the product it is today by many. That's how licenses work i'd say. My point is that people trying to rule out what did and didnt happen to obsessive detail ruins a huge chunk of the series for themselves and others that listen to them. I can understand real life, news or actual history...but what's the point in invalidating fiction?

Also I don't really understand your point about Raiga. The fact that Kishi chose to add him is what makes the point make sense. One example that Kishi really doesn't see the world being exclusively of his own invention. He's much looser than we are about it.

This is a very controversial topic and it seems to be split but I completely agree with this last sentence. Raiga is canon and some people dont get to decide that

 

[Observer]

I'd like to fill-er some grey substance in your brain.

 

[Holy God]

An editor came up with the idea for Sasuke. Kishi was going to make Hiruzen a dog...did you read the pilot manga?

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

The entire main conflict of the series was thought up by somebody else and ripped off Hunter x Hunter and DBZ among others. He's the main one sure- but crediting only his hand as the source of biblical auteur ownership is ridiculous, because he was never the sole author.

I never said all of his content is original. I actually implied the opposite when I said that he gets inspiration and help from others. He's already stated he has multiple works that he looks upon. The difference between your auteur example however is that it isn't multiple people who are writing Naruto. Kishimoto himself is and no one can simply add to it without his confirmation.

I can name a few, i'd even go as far to say that there's almost as many plotholes and contradictions as non-canon. Multiple ages have sparked controversy, Academy graduation dates, Minato's face on the Hokage Monument in the wrong eras, genjutsu working on a perfect jin, the iffy retcons caused by the Itachi is good plottwist, Oro remarking Kakashi's sharingan was 'new' etc

The entire timeline is arguably f*cked and Jiraiya/Minato/Nagato's events had to be readjusted after the retconned Obito twist.

I don't know about any of the time errors, but Minato's face is more a drawing error than a contradiction, and genjutsu working on a host (I don't remember anyone saying Yagura was a perfect one) can be done if both the Tailed Beast and host are put under it. Itachi being revealed to be nice isn't a contradiction unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. As for Kakashi and Orochimaru, it would make perfect sense if he's never seen Kakashi with the Sharingan active.

All additional stories do is add to the world, never take away.

I'm not saying there is something wrong with the added material. I'm simply saying that it isn't a part of Kishimoto's story.

 

[V h o]

Oh the anime is canon? Guess that list of inconsistencies has sky rocketed then.... Welp

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

I don't know about any of the time errors, but Minato's face is more a drawing error than a contradiction, and genjutsu working on a host (I don't remember anyone saying Yagura was a perfect one) can be done if both the Tailed Beast and host are put under it. Itachi being revealed to be nice isn't a contradiction unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. As for Kakashi and Orochimaru, it would make perfect sense if he's never seen Kakashi with the Sharingan active.

Oro hints they have a history in that meeting and it's always bugged me haha. With Itachi I meant the way he pressured Sasuke into killing his best friend and then was revealed to be a noble Kage-worthy Konoha spy insistent on 'never forget your friends' is a quote of his. It's a retcon at best really. Academy graduation ages are a problem for Sasuke, Naruto, Kakashi, Obito and arguably Team Guy aaaaand you can have the Isobu/Yagura one haha.

Kishimoto himself is and no one can simply add to it without his confirmation.

I'm not saying there is something wrong with the added material. I'm simply saying that it isn't a part of Kishimoto's story.

I see what you're trying to say but you're contradicting yourself...or at the very least helping my argument. The fact that Kishimoto isn't the sole writer but the most authoritative one who makes the calls means that correct, he does get to decide what is and isn't part of his story. He decided to make an anime and works with them- an expansion on his world. He decided to put his name and legislate a timeline for the novels- that's now part of his world. Same with the movies and same with Raiga.

He does have auteurship, but that actually strengthens my argument- don't you think? The matter of 'Death of the Author' and the auteurship controversy is a debate for another time but we don't even have to go into that territory to acknowledge that Kishi isn't the sole biblical hand responsible for the Naruto we enjoy today.

Without that one editor we wouldn't have the main conflict and fan favourite / arc ***** of Sasuke. Without the team godknows what kind of story we'd have gotten, or whether it'd have even been popular and made it to popular print? Naruto is the product of many people.

 

[BlacLord™]

An editor came up with the idea for Sasuke. Kishi was going to make Hiruzen a dog...did you read the pilot manga?

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

The entire main conflict of the series was thought up by somebody else and ripped off Hunter x Hunter and DBZ among others. He's the main one sure- but crediting only his hand as the source of biblical auteur ownership is ridiculous, because he was never the sole author.



I can name a few, i'd even go as far to say that there's almost as many plotholes and contradictions as non-canon. Multiple ages have sparked controversy, Academy graduation dates, Minato's face on the Hokage Monument in the wrong eras, genjutsu working on a perfect jin, the iffy retcons caused by the Itachi is good plottwist, Oro remarking Kakashi's sharingan was 'new' etc

The entire timeline is arguably f*cked and Jiraiya/Minato/Nagato's events had to be readjusted after the retconned Obito twist.

All additional stories do is add to the world, never take away.
thanks for the sensible adult discussion btw, been a while since I had that on this site

- What academy graduation dates?
- Minato's monument appearing the in the wrong era would just be an art mistake.
- Your genjutsu accusation falls foul because that was one statement by Killer B. That was just his perspective probably based on his experience and limiting scope of knowledge, besides, he never actually said they were immune.
- Defining Itachi as just a "good" person is naive. Nobody is just good or just bad; Itachi did a lot of questionable things whilst striving for peace, and that ultimately just makes him human. Canonically (ha), Orochimaru was never seen meeting Kakashi before the Chunin Exams.


And I looked over that picture you posted, but it doesn't prove anything. The text just describes the order of release and says that Kishi drew the illustrations... not devised the story.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

- What academy graduation dates?
- Minato's monument appearing the in the wrong era would just be an art mistake.
- Your genjutsu accusation falls foul because that was one statement by Killer B. That was just his perspective probably based on his experience and limiting scope of knowledge, besides, he never actually said they were immune.
- Defining Itachi as just a "good" person is naive. Nobody is just good or just bad; Itachi did a lot of questionable things whilst striving for peace, and that ultimately just makes him human. Canonically (ha), Orochimaru was never seen meeting Kakashi before the Chunin Exams.


And I looked over that picture you posted, but it doesn't prove anything. The text just describes the order of release and says that Kishi drew the illustrations... not devised the story.

^ Clarified up there in more detail

Kishi putting his name to it on the cover alone legitimises them. Why else would a timeline be created if not to tie them into the series of events of the series? Holy God explained Kishi's auteurship very well.

 

[Holy God]

I see what you're trying to say but you're contradicting yourself...or at the very least helping my argument. The fact that Kishimoto isn't the sole writer but the most authoritative one who makes the calls means that correct, he does get to decide what is and isn't part of his story. He decided to make an anime and works with them- an expansion on his world. He decided to put his name and legislate a timeline for the novels- that's now part of his world. Same with the movies and same with Raiga.

He does have auteurship, but that actually strengthens my argument- don't you think? The matter of 'Death of the Author' and the auteurship controversy is a debate for another time but we don't even have to go into that territory to acknowledge that Kishi isn't the sole biblical hand responsible for the Naruto we enjoy today. Without that one editor we wouldn't have the main conflict and fan favourite / arc ***** of Sasuke. Without the team godknows what kind of story we'd have gotten, or whether it'd have even been popular and made it to popular print? Naruto is the product of many people.

Kishimoto is the only author though. Getting inspiration from others does not automatically make them an author. Of course he decided to allow the anime to follow his story, but the same could be said for other manga such as Akame ga Kiru, where the anime takes a completely different turn after a while and makes it rather obvious that it cannot be considered part of the actual story.

What do you think would be the difference between me writing fan-fiction that fell perfectly inline with the story and the anime? It can't be the allowing of the creation of the anime since there are obvious things that don't correspond to the story and there are other conflicting examples.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

Kishimoto is the only author though. Getting inspiration from others does not automatically make them an author. Of course he decided to allow the anime to follow his story, but the same could be said for other manga such as Akame ga Kiru, where the anime takes a completely different turn after a while and makes it rather obvious that it cannot be considered part of the actual story.

What do you think would be the difference between me writing fan-fiction that fell perfectly inline with the story and the anime? It can't be the allowing of the creation of the anime since there are obvious things that don't correspond to the story and there are other conflicting examples.

I've written an entire dissertation on this subject aha so i'll try not to get too into it in case of boring you or spamming the forum but I love talking about this subject. We certainly shouldn't get into the territory of what a 'author' actually is as a societal figure or how much of their works are cultural artifacts (bc its like, 1am here haha)

You must be registered for see images

but i'd say the rather obvious difference is that Kishimoto doesn't know of your fan-fiction or slap his name on the cover above yours. On the side of the book Kishi's name is much more prominent than Higashiyama's.

Anime with split-diversion filler arcs I agree cannot be included because that's an instance where the contradiction cannot be overlooked. Soul Eater, FMA, Blue Exorcist, AKG- yeah, fair enough. Naruto never does this. Interestingly as a good example, Ninja Storm 3 does, it has a straightup different ending to the Ninja War. That is an example of divergent filler, Shippuden? Doesn't apply. I will admit it damages pacing and tension but that shouldn't make it all redundant, it's just a gripe. The only fair one in my eyes.

[video=youtube;zWFjMDIJsjY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWFjMDIJsjY&channel=PS360HD2[/video]