A or B theory of time?

Marin

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I've noticed there are quite a few philosophers on this site so I'd like to ask which theory of time do you gentlemen adhere to? I myself have trouble understanding the B-theory (or rather understanding how it could be held credible) while deeming the A-theory self-evident.

I believe I'm missing some things because I doubt there are no good arguments for the B side (especially since the theory seems to be well accepted in theoretical physics), so can any of you explain it in a better light or give some arguments I'd find persuasive?
 
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HashiraMadara

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Before you indulge your self in any of the upcoming answers, know that both A-series and B-series don't contain 100% science/mathematics and are both severely out dated
 

HashiraMadara

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You still haven't answered why they are outdated.
I was never planning to answer you. I don't need to explain a self explanatory statement...

The word out dated means what? When was that A-B series tense theory was encompassed? What was the general believe of "time" then scientifically... Mine your self an answer
 

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I've noticed there are quite a few philosophers on this site so I'd like to ask which theory of time do you gentlemen adhere to? I myself have trouble understanding the B-theory (or rather understanding how it could be held credible) while deeming the A-theory self-evident.

I believe I'm missing some things because I doubt there are no good arguments for the B side (especially since the theory seems to be well accepted in theoretical physics), so can any of you explain it in a better light or give some arguments I'd find persuasive?
While time may actually exist in a state closer to B, we can only truly ever perceive it as A. I'd say I'm more in agreeance with Heraclitus' view for the time being but stuff like that can always change and mold as your thoughts and feelings do.
 

Marin

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I was never planning to answer you. I don't need to explain a self explanatory statement...

The word out dated means what? When was that A-B series tense theory was encompassed? What was the general believe of "time" then scientifically... Mine your self an answer
To be outdated means to no longer be applicable. The only way this would work would be for more accurate theories to rise, but since there is absolutely no such a thing (unless you consider compatibilistic views between the 2 theories as something new) and our understanding of time hasn't significantly improved since the theories were concieved I don't see what renders the theories of time unapplicable for current use.

There is nothing self-explanatory about your statement.

While time may actually exist in a state closer to B, we can only truly ever perceive it as A. I'd say I'm more in agreeance with Heraclitus' view for the time being but stuff like that can always change and mold as your thoughts and feelings do.
That's what I thought too. While the B-theory may be closer to reality according to certain scientific theories, to embrace it we'd have to ignore our cognitive abilities which would again render those very findings that support the B-theory baseless.
 

Jazzy Stardust

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well i learned something new, had no idea wtf you were talking about, so i consulted the oracle. i still dont really get the purpose of these theories, its two things stating the obvious

theory A is saying that events are lead by your thoughts, were theory B is saying events only happen before and after action. but both are needed, its pointless to pick a side. thought leads into action, and action brings about outcome/event/cause/scenario etc.
 

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Although there is a lot of physics mumbo jumbo on the subject of time that does frankly deserve to be taken only as seriously as the philosophy, e.g. string theory, special relativity isn't 'theoretical' physics - in fact it's one of the more understandable constructs of modern physics as well among the most experimentally verified.

In special relativity how you experience time depends on how fast you are moving relative to an observer, and the faster you move the slower your experience of time to the observer (though the effect only really becomes noticeable at speeds approaching that of light, c, which is why relativistic effects are unobservable in everyday phenomena). And that remarkable fact isn't just mathematical theorizing - you can literally lengthen the life of unstable particles in a particle accelerator by accelerating them. The more you accelerate any unstable particle the longer it will 'live' before decaying.

That by itself isn't problematic for the old conception of time (the A-theory) until you apply the Lorentz transformations - this is the physical law that governs the relation between how two observers experience time relative to each other - to simultaneous events.

For any two events that are simultaneous for one observer there will exist potential observers (frames of reference) for whom the events will not be simultaneous.

Let's make this a little more concrete: suppose there are two bombs that are set off at the same time so that there are two explosions that appear to happen at the same time to everyone on Earth. There will exist frames of reference where those two events are not observed to be simultaneous although they will be inaccessible as you'd have to be moving at speeds significantly close to c to really notice that they will not be simultaneous, which is, again, why we can agree on simultaneous events in everyday life.

But if we were to have clocks precise to several dozen decimal places and could somehow accurately time events, no one would be able to agree on the timing of events and it wouldn't be because of any sort of error.

So 'when' did those two bombs go off then?

There is no such thing as absolute time (which is what the A series properties seem to require).

Nevertheless, even if there is no absolute simultaneity, causality is still preserved by the Lorentz transformation of time - causally connected events have their order preserved in all reference frames.

The button pressed to blow the bomb will be observed before the explosion in all possible references frames.

Of course this all presumes that you accept the realist view that what you experience is legitimate to begin with. The real philosophical question, in the end, is the age old one of whether you believe sensory experience is real or not, and the 'idealist' philosophers who like to speculate about time, not coincidentally, usually do not.

Oh, and don't worry too much about any of this making much intuitive sense because in that regard you would be in the same boat as the physicists - as John Von Neumann once said to a colleague who complained about the counter-intuitiveness of a theorem, and which can be said even more so of physics, "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them."
 
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Marin

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well i learned something new, had no idea wtf you were talking about, so i consulted the oracle. i still dont really get the purpose of these theories, its two things stating the obvious

theory A is saying that events are lead by your thoughts, were theory B is saying events only happen before and after action. but both are needed, its pointless to pick a side. thought leads into action, and action brings about outcome/event/cause/scenario etc.
Well atleast someone here learned something new! (Tho I hoped that someone would be me...)

You got it wrong tho. The A and B series deal with whether time is tensed or not meaning the A-theory advocates a passage (or flow of time) with events coming and going out of existence (temporal becoming) while the B-theory suggests that the flow of time is an illusion and present, past and future all co-exist which negates the existence of temporal becoming and implies eternal existence (something I cannot possibly take seriously).

Far from stating the obvious the philosophy of time shows just how little we know about things we take for granted.
 
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Jazzy Stardust

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Well atleast someone here learned something new! (Tho I hoped that someone would be me...)

You got it wrong tho. The A and B series deal with whether time is tensed or not meaning the A-theory advocates a passage (or flow of time) with events coming and going out of existence (temporal becoming) while the B-theory suggests that the flow of time is an illusion and present, past and future all co-exist which negates the existence of temporal becoming and implies eternal existence (something I cannot possibly take seriously).

Far from stating the obvious the philosophy of time shows just how little we know about things we take for granted.
oh i see, that makes more sense. in that case i go with A. B ignores death which is silly
 

Marin

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Although there is a lot of physics mumbo jumbo on the subject of time that does frankly deserve to be taken only as seriously as the philosophy, e.g. string theory, special relativity isn't 'theoretical' physics - in fact it's one of the more understandable constructs of modern physics as well among the most experimentally verified.

In special relativity how you experience time depends on how fast you are moving relative to an observer, and the faster you move the slower your experience of time to the observer (though the effect only really becomes noticeable at speeds approaching that of light, c, which is why relativistic effects are unobservable in everyday phenomena). And that remarkable fact isn't just mathematical theorizing - you can literally lengthen the life of unstable particles in a particle accelerator by accelerating them. The more you accelerate any unstable particle the longer it will 'live' before decaying.

That by itself isn't problematic for the old conception of time (the A-theory) until you apply the Lorentz transformations - this is the physical law that governs the relation between how two observers experience time relative to each other - to simultaneous events.

For any two events that are simultaneous for one observer there will exist potential observers (frames of reference) for whom the events will not be simultaneous.

Let's make this a little more concrete: suppose there are two bombs that are set off at the same time so that there are two explosions that appear to happen at the same time to everyone on Earth. There will exist frames of reference where those two events are not observed to be simultaneous although they will be inaccessible as you'd have to be moving at speeds significantly close to c to really notice that they will not be simultaneous, which is, again, why we can agree on simultaneous events in everyday life.

But if we were to have clocks precise to several dozen decimal places and could somehow accurately time events, no one would be able to agree on simultaneous events and it wouldn't be because of any sort of error.

So 'when' did those two bombs go off then?

There is no such thing as absolute time (which is what the A series properties seem to require).

Nevertheless, even if there is no absolute simultaneity, causality is still preserved by the Lorentz transformation of time - causally connected events have their order preserved in all reference frames.

The button pressed to blow the bomb will be observed before the explosion in all possible references frames.

Of course this all presumes that you accept the realist view that what you experience is legitimate to begin with. The real philosophical question, in the end, is the age old one of whether you believe sensory experience is real or not, and the 'idealist' philosophers who like to speculate about time, not coincidentally, usually do not.

Oh, and don't worry too much about any of this making much intuitive sense because in that regard you would be in the same boat as the physicists - as John Von Neumann once said to a colleague who complained about the counter-intuitiveness of a theorem, and which can be said even more so of physics, "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them."
Read about special relativity just a few hours ago. What I said was that the theory received support from the theoretical physicists not that these people were the only ones to do so!

Speaking of special relativity, while the time differences are there in order for them to really be relevant (atleast to the extent of prolonging one's life) your velocity would have to be ridiculous. Speed of light would need to be surpassed which we all know is impossible unless your mass goes below zero.

Still, I don't think we had a believable experiment to conclude direct relation between the sequence of events and velocity of the observer. It could be that velocity influences our perception of time rather than the actual sequence itself or the clocks used to measure are to blame. (After all time is still not properly defined ie "time is what clocks measure").
 

Marin

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oh i see, that makes more sense. in that case i go with A. B ignores death which is silly
Well depends on how you define death. Here the "things we take for granted" deal comes in play. We now go into territory of what it means to exist and what constitutes one self.

Problem really has no end with our current knowledge.
 

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Read about special relativity just a few hours ago. What I said was that the theory received support from the theoretical physicists not that these people were the only ones to do so!

Speaking of special relativity, while the time differences are there in order for them to really be relevant (atleast to the extent of prolonging one's life) your velocity would have to be ridiculous. Speed of light would need to be surpassed which we all know is impossible unless your mass goes below zero.

Still, I don't think we had a believable experiment to conclude direct relation between the sequence of events and velocity of the observer. It could be that velocity influences our perception of time rather than the actual sequence itself or the clocks used to measure are to blame. (After all time is still not properly defined ie "time is what clocks measure").
There are actually convincing experiments on the relativity of simultaneity (most of them are variations of the Michelson-Morley experiment) but your last paragraph is why physics won't be able to end this debate. The physics view of time, even if mainstream and standard ones, either takes those things for granted (we can experience the real world independent of our perception of it) or can corroborate them at best (the relation between velocity and experience of time for which there is evidence but again - empirical).
 
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Marin

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There are actually convincing experiments on the relativity of simultaneity (most of them are variations of the Michelson-Morley experiment) but your last paragraph is why physics won't be able to end this debate. The physics view of time, even if mainstream and standard ones, either takes those things for granted (we can experience the real world independent of our perception of it) or can corroborate them at best (the relation between velocity and experience of time for which there is evidence but again - empirical).
Ok, I've done some more reading on the topic and I think I got a better grip of the whole deal with theories and how they relate to special relativity. Basically, the point of it is that time isn't a linear, absolute deal but merely a dimension of spacetime which can be warped if given the sufficent speed of an object. While the terms around the refference frames and the exact nature of the differences as well as paradoxes which occur (none of which have a determined verified explanation) are still confusing to me, I find them irrelevant to the basic nature of this discussion.

Granted that time is dependant on one's velocity, all we get from the special relativity usurptions of time is changing the length of an interval between two events in effect to us. (Either slowing it down, thus aging less, or fast forwarding it, thus aging more). We can never really go beyond the two events nor change their order therefore the events will necessarily happen regardless of which refference frame we're in.

For example, a ball pops into existence in what was previously empty space. Regardless of which frame we're in, we'd only be able to go faster or slower through the interval of the event (going from nothing to creation of the ball), but never change the fact that ball has popped into existence at a certain moment. We could only delay or speed-up the interval in which the ball pops into existence.

As far as I understood it, this is all the special relativity has to do with the topic at hand and none of this is decisive in the A-B dilemma. I say this because the major point of disagreement between the two camps (so to call them) is the reality of past, present and future and temporal becoming. Now, if I got the above mentioned stuff right, regardless of how fast or slow you move through the interval before the existence of a ball, you will undeniably arrive to the moment of the ball popping into existence, therefore temporal becoming would still apply, even if to you the ball started existing sooner or later than it did to an observer from a difference refference frame.

Now, the B-theory (if I understood it correctly) is stating that temporal becoming isn't real because the ball would always exist at any given moment in a certain refference frame (for example, even if it doesn't yet exist in the refference frame of one observer, it exists in that of another, therefore the ball already exists), but I find this false! The reason for that is the fact that in order for this to be true we'd have to do more than just delay the ball's existence for a fixed amount of time, we'd actually have to infinitelly postpone it!

The reason why I believe this is because no matter how much we delay or speed-up our reality of the interval up to the ball's creation, there will undeniably be a moment (in all frames of refference) when the ball hasn't yet popped into existence! The reason for that is the fact that in special relativity we can only move at speeds up to c, which would in turn give us always only a fixed interval for manipulation. The highest calculated speed would only make the interval difference around a few years (it could a million years but it's all the same) which would still not change the fact that a ball would not exist at a certain moment outside of that reach!

Therefore, there will always be past events that are outside of our reach of manipulation which means that some events of past no longer exist in any refference frame therefore rendering the notion that all past events exist constantly false!

In turn, the A-theory states that temporal becoming is real and that past and future are not as real as present, which I believe the above example demonstrates. While I believe for this reason that A-theory is more believable, I don't think the special relativity really favours any theory in specific as it simply changes the nature of time rather than the order of events and reality of the latter. (Which is why I'm still waiting for a persuasive argument for the actual theory rather than special relativity.)

So, what do you think? Did I miss something in my example of the ball? I feel like I did, but my basic understanding (the faster you go, the different your effect on time between events will be) is in tune with what the theory of special relativity states so I can't really see an error.
 

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Ok, I've done some more reading on the topic and I think I got a better grip of the whole deal with theories and how they relate to special relativity. Basically, the point of it is that time isn't a linear, absolute deal but merely a dimension of spacetime which can be warped if given the sufficent speed of an object. While the terms around the refference frames and the exact nature of the differences as well as paradoxes which occur (none of which have a determined verified explanation) are still confusing to me, I find them irrelevant to the basic nature of this discussion.

Granted that time is dependant on one's velocity, all we get from the special relativity usurptions of time is changing the length of an interval between two events in effect to us. (Either slowing it down, thus aging less, or fast forwarding it, thus aging more). We can never really go beyond the two events nor change their order therefore the events will necessarily happen regardless of which refference frame we're in.

For example, a ball pops into existence in what was previously empty space. Regardless of which frame we're in, we'd only be able to go faster or slower through the interval of the event (going from nothing to creation of the ball), but never change the fact that ball has popped into existence at a certain moment. We could only delay or speed-up the interval in which the ball pops into existence.

As far as I understood it, this is all the special relativity has to do with the topic at hand and none of this is decisive in the A-B dilemma. I say this because the major point of disagreement between the two camps (so to call them) is the reality of past, present and future and temporal becoming. Now, if I got the above mentioned stuff right, regardless of how fast or slow you move through the interval before the existence of a ball, you will undeniably arrive to the moment of the ball popping into existence, therefore temporal becoming would still apply, even if to you the ball started existing sooner or later than it did to an observer from a difference refference frame.

Now, the B-theory (if I understood it correctly) is stating that temporal becoming isn't real because the ball would always exist at any given moment in a certain refference frame (for example, even if it doesn't yet exist in the refference frame of one observer, it exists in that of another, therefore the ball already exists), but I find this false! The reason for that is the fact that in order for this to be true we'd have to do more than just delay the ball's existence for a fixed amount of time, we'd actually have to infinitelly postpone it!

The reason why I believe this is because no matter how much we delay or speed-up our reality of the interval up to the ball's creation, there will undeniably be a moment (in all frames of refference) when the ball hasn't yet popped into existence! The reason for that is the fact that in special relativity we can only move at speeds up to c, which would in turn give us always only a fixed interval for manipulation. The highest calculated speed would only make the interval difference around a few years (it could a million years but it's all the same) which would still not change the fact that a ball would not exist at a certain moment outside of that reach!

Therefore, there will always be past events that are outside of our reach of manipulation which means that some events of past no longer exist in any refference frame therefore rendering the notion that all past events exist constantly false!

In turn, the A-theory states that temporal becoming is real and that past and future are not as real as present, which I believe the above example demonstrates. While I believe for this reason that A-theory is more believable, I don't think the special relativity really favours any theory in specific as it simply changes the nature of time rather than the order of events and reality of the latter. (Which is why I'm still waiting for a persuasive argument for the actual theory rather than special relativity.)

So, what do you think? Did I miss something in my example of the ball? I feel like I did, but my basic understanding (the faster you go, the different your effect on time between events will be) is in tune with what the theory of special relativity states so I can't really see an error.
Very good.

You just need to take the idea a little further. You said that the time intervals are dependent on a reference frame.

Now suppose we are talking about more than one event - two bombs going off in my example - which are not causally connected.

The time interval between those two events is not the same for different reference frames, in other words, it depends on the reference frame.

So here is the question:

Which reference frame is the 'real' one?

Suppose in one frame bomb 1 goes off at X seconds and bomb 2 at Y seconds after (this time they do not blow simultaneously for simpler illustration). In a different frame even if bomb 1 also goes off at X seconds on the clock, bomb 2 will not - bomb 2 will go off at Z seconds after.

So when did bomb 2 go off, Y or Z seconds after?

There is no reason why we should accept the answer of one reference over the other (as long as they are both inertial frames but never mind that) - they are both 'correct.'

Your own thought experiment about the ball is more subtle and would be equivalent to saying that bomb 1 goes off at 'X seconds' in all reference frames. The problem is that 'X seconds' doesn't exist in the first place because time is always measured as the temporal movement of events, e.g. each tick of the clock. Because relativity affects the duration of temporal movements how any event is experienced temporally will always depend on the reference frame.

So while it is true that your ball popped into existence, it is impossible to define the exact 'moment' when it did so. Which means that even if we use t = 0 in the big bang as the original reference point, just because you saw that ball pop into existence 14 billion years, 3 months, 2 days, 4 hours, 20 minutes and 33 seconds later does not mean someone in a different reference frame will agree with you - a different reference frame will report that time as being slightly different (how different depends on how close to c the frame has been moving and for how long).

In other words there is no such thing as "absolute time" - a single reference frame which we can use as a reference for comparison to all others because the laws of physics are the same in all reference frames (again assuming they are inertial reference frames).

One final thought experiment for you: imagine that we have a set of metre rulers and we mark a point on each of them, e.g. 1.1 cm or something. Now suppose we stretch the entire rulers by varying amounts (our rulers were made of highly elastic material capable of permanent deformation). This is basically what time dilation does to our experience of time in relativity except that we have no reference metre ruler to begin with because all rulers come into existence stretched to different lengths.
 
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