old Hiruzen vs 4 tailed Naruto

[Waltz]

It's more of a point that Hiruzen cannot use KKG whereas other Kages can which signify higher skill in using those particular elements yet were shown to have only mastered one of the elements that composes that KKG.

This doesn't negeate nor has it anything to do with Natural selection granting him the prowess to master all the elements. This says that the Kages who use KKGs didn't master all the elements and if Hiruzen could, then you think they should be able to where their KKG elements are concerned just because they can use a KKG.

 

[Exaar]

I agree with the last sentence, but the one with the affinity for the technique will have higher potential using that element than someone who doesn't. My problem with your thinking is that you're under the assumption that Hiruzen can master all elements like he has an affinity for them all. This is simply not true as that is a power associated with Rikudou's Power. This is why it makes no sense to me at all.

He has proven to have done so with his 5 elemental attack against the wooden Buddha. Not only that 4 of them elements are not his natural affinity yet they were equally as large and powerful as his katon.

Also his chakra while preforming these attacks was 1/5th of it's normal and is had decreased since his younger days due to his old age. So the elements we saw edo hiruzen use aren't even the strongest nor largest he could do.

That's hard to say. Sasuke has incorporated both Katon and Raiton and both seem to complement his fighting style.

Yes but lightning is his dominant element when it comes to combat.

Raiton seems to be Sasuke's affinity IMO. Kakashi mentioned how even took a large number of days (presumably under a week) and we have to take into consideration how Sasuke also effectively mastered Katon rather quickly as well. I believe it's fair to assume that since Sasuke mastered Raiton so quickly as well that it's also his affinity which makes sense when Indra is also associated with Raiton.

Sasuke is a genius, He also copied lee fighting style in the same time span. Sasuke's affinity was and is katon as shown when he learn't it at an extremely young age to impress his father, Then again when kakashi thought it impossible for a genin to be able to use such elemental ninjutsu in the first place.

The mastery of his raiton was down to sasuke's ability to learn quickly and his overall genius status.

That's a good argument, but that doesn't tell me how well he can perform Yin and Yang Release. To me, it doesn't make sense. I don't expect an Uchiha to perform Yang Release on the level that a Senju can as the Senju inherited Yang Release whereas the Uchiha didn't, so they're going to be less effective in utilizing it overall. Same thing with clans. Specific clans inherit hiden ninjutsu and so I don't expect a clan who has inherited Yang Release to use Yin Release on the same level as a clan that has inherited Yin Release. Hiruzen hasn't inherited both, so I cannot expect him to use it on the level as other clans can.

Well as i said, it depends on the individual and you might be right when talking about the average shinobi but we aren't here.

He was already shown high level of mastery of 5 elements, He has shown to be able to use Yang release via shadow clone jutsu and apprently has Yin release with his 5 in Genjutsu and the hype he was given in the viz here

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Why would using it on the level as Jonin enable him to defeat KN4 Naruto?

Well it's not like Ino nor shikamaru were profound geniuses in their clan, born with natural abilities above that of everyone else.
(Note, I'm not talking about Genius in terms of intelligence but skill and ability)
Yet constantly shikamaru was able to catch people in shadow possession way above his own level and Ino even managed to take control of war arc obito who was connected to the juubi even for an instant.

Manga has time and time again emphasized how only the original owner can use the power of the eyes to its full potential. Even Nagato who had vast experience with the Rinnegan was unable to use it on the level as Madara can despite having far more experience with it.

Since it's not Kakashi's eyes, he does not have the potential to master the power of Obito's Sharingan. That contradicts the manga.

Then that just goes to show the type of genius kakashi is.
Yes normally a non-uchiha cannot master the sharingan but again you aren't taking individual skill/ability into the equation.

@bold, Yes but the rinnegan is slightly different from the sharingan. The Rinnegan takes incredible chakra reserves to the point not even a pure blooded uchiha like obito with Senju DNA couldn't use both eyes, He could barely handle one.

Yet nagato, a person not born of ocular ninjutsu, whos body was not naturally accustomed to it was able to use both eyes since he was a child, before he even became a ninja or learn't ninja techniques for that matter.
Another example of individual ability, Since on paper due to his lack of uchiha blood/Senju blood you would laugh if someone said an Uzumaki could withstand madara double rinnegan when an uchiha failed to do so.

 

[Icelerate]

Well it's not like Ino nor shikamaru were profound geniuses in their clan, born with natural abilities above that of everyone else.
(Note, I'm not talking about Genius in terms of intelligence but skill and ability)
Yet constantly shikamaru was able to catch people in shadow possession way above his own level and Ino even managed to take control of war arc obito who was connected to the juubi even for an instant.

Ino and Shikamaru were the staple members of their clan as their parents were the leaders of their respective clans so they were obviously above the rest of the clan members. They aren't as skilled as Hiruzen but they specialize in those arts hence why it doesn't make sense for their feats to be transferred over to Hiruzen. Kakashi is more skilled than Kiba but his ability to smell is inferior to part 2 Kiba while being above part 1 Kiba. I'd argue Hiruzen's smell which he may have inherited from the Inuzuka clan is probably inferior to Kiba's as well. In order to use an ability Hiruzen has, you'd have to be able to quantify how well he can use it but there isn't any way to quantify his skill in hiden jutsus unlike elemental jutsus which we can give to him provided they are used by Konoha shinobi before his death.

 

[Draegod]

Ino and Shikamaru were the staple members of their clan as their parents were the leaders of the clan so they were obviously above the rest of the clan members. They aren't as skilled as Hiruzen but they specialize in those arts hence why it doesn't make sense for their feats to be transferred over to Hiruzen. Kakashi is more skilled than Kiba but his ability to smell is inferior to part 2 Kiba while being above part 1 Kiba. I'd argue Hiruzen's smell which he may have inherited from the Inuzuka clan is probably inferior to Kiba's as well. In order to use an ability Hiruzen has, you'd have to be able to quantify how well he can use it but there isn't any way to quantify his skill in hiden jutsus unlike elemental jutsus which we can give to him provided they are used by Konoha shinobi before his death.

So logicaly since everything he has ever shown has been pinnicle (such as being the only ninja to clone inanamte objects), Control basic fire on the level of Enton etc. It would be foolish to put his skills below academy level since you cannot prove it to be weaker since nothing about him is low level or weak. We have cannon proof of him mimicing a jutsu perfectly (Uzamaki's hiden forbidden jutsu RDS 3 times). You cannot prove it is weaker at all, we also have proof he was family with the entire village, so they could have personally taught him or he simply watched them with his crystal ball with out them knowing. Since it's fact he stayed watching everyone.

Is Itachi's "Genjutsu sharingan" tech weaker than Kakashi's since it was never shown ever? Or can we conclude that since everything Itachi does in high level (especially gen) that it is also high level like sasukes and kakashi. Or will we be a hypocrite yet a again because you dont like a character? I can go on for days on how much of a hypocrite you all are being.

 

[ComplexCity]

Your contradicting yourself. If someone believes that Yata can block anything you shouldn't have a problem with that since your implying the same logic to defend Hiruzen ability to use all Konoha Jutsu.

So im not sure what your arguing here. Let's just stick to feats in a vs thread it makes it much more simpler. Not to mention in Hiruzens old age given him feats to use all of Konoha jutsu wouldn't mean much since his chakra reserves are pissy.

Here's the thing about assuming. I don't believe in Hiruzens or any hype. Funny right? This was the logic presented by a few in a previous thread and I saw PPDG contradict himself here. I would have kept going but I didn't want to derail. Instead of jumping to conclusions why don't you ask next time?


Also

Statements being used to gauge a technique are not credible seeing how characters have subjective and often exaggerated points of views. We don't use statements in the manga in a debate, we use feats

 

[Icelerate]

So logicaly since everything he has ever shown has been pinnicle (such as being the only ninja to clone inanamte objects), Control basic fire on the level of Enton etc. It would be foolish to put his skills below academy level since you cannot prove it to be weaker since nothing about him is low level or weak. We have cannon proof of him mimicing a jutsu perfectly (Uzamaki's hiden forbidden jutsu RDS 3 times). You cannot prove it is weaker at all, we also have proof he was family with the entire village, so they could have personally taught him or he simply watched them with his crystal ball with out them knowing. Since it's fact he stayed watching everyone.

I never put his skills below academy level. Hiruzen's use of RDS was nothing compared to Minato's usage and RDS isn't the same as other clan based ninjutsu. I can't prove it to be weaker, but you can't prove it to be stronger either, therefore unquantifiable. Him learning the jutsu form the other clan members doesn't mean he reached their level in using them considering part one Sasuke's raiton usage was inferior to part one Kakashi's. Neji learned his clan techs by mere observation yet didn't reach Hiashi's level.

Is Itachi's "Genjutsu sharingan" tech weaker than Kakashi's since it was never shown ever? Or can we conclude that since everything Itachi does in high level (especially gen) that it is also high level like sasukes and kakashi. Or will we be a hypocrite yet a again because you dont like a character? I can go on for days on how much of a hypocrite you all are being.

Itachi is more skilled in genjutsu than Kakashi as was shown in the manga. Hiruzen hasn't used clan based ninjutsu on the same level as the more prominent members.

 

[Draegod]

I never put his skills below academy level. Hiruzen's use of RDS was nothing compared to Minato's usage and RDS isn't the same as other clan based ninjutsu. I can't prove it to be weaker, but you can't prove it to be stronger either, therefore unquantifiable. Him learning the jutsu form the other clan members doesn't mean he reached their level in using them considering part one Sasuke's raiton usage was inferior to part one Kakashi's. Neji learned his clan techs by mere observation yet didn't reach Hiashi's level.

Itachi is more skilled in genjutsu than Kakashi as was shown in the manga. Hiruzen hasn't used clan based ninjutsu on the same level as the more prominent members.

Prove Itachi uses it better or even close.

Hiruzen has been stated to use all Hiden clan techs and cannonly used RDS which is Uzamaki only and Whirlpool according to Oru and Minato. Hiruzen has used everything identicle or high level. To think he would be inferior to genins is a joke when his track record is hokage level and the techs aren't that difficult to use or learn (academy level ninjas learn these techs for crying out loud, then it gets better with bigger chakra stated by the databook and manga (which he blows them all out the park in). And to say, "I can't prove it to be weaker, but you can't prove it to be stronger either, therefore unquantifiable." Yet say Itachi uses the Gen tech better than sasuke and kakashi is being a hypocrite, seeing as you have no proof other than " he is the better Gen user" when he has ne ever used the tech.

 

[NarutoX28]

He has proven to have done so with his 5 elemental attack against the wooden Buddha. Not only that 4 of them elements are not his natural affinity yet they were equally as large and powerful as his katon.

Sure, but size and potency of techniques aren't the only factors to one's mastery over an element, but rather, how they're used and manipulated with examples being Sasuke's proficiency with Raiton and Kisame's proficiency with Suiton, but I'll admit, this is a good point.

Even if you I did agree with this, how does this imply that his Yin and Yang Release is actually on the level as other clan's member. Do you think Hiruzen has the potential to use Yin and Yang Release on par with an Uchiha and Senju respectively?

Also his chakra while preforming these attacks was 1/5th of it's normal and is had decreased since his younger days due to his old age. So the elements we saw edo hiruzen use aren't even the strongest nor largest he could do.

Clones only split the amount of chakra he possesses, but in no way have Kage Bushin been shown to have inferior usage of techniques.

Sasuke is a genius, He also copied lee fighting style in the same time span. Sasuke's affinity was and is katon as shown when he learn't it at an extremely young age to impress his father, Then again when kakashi thought it impossible for a genin to be able to use such elemental ninjutsu in the first place.

The mastery of his raiton was down to sasuke's ability to learn quickly and his overall genius status.

Elemental manipulation is a form of Chakra Control and it has been emphasized in Part 1 that Sasuke was not a genius in Chakra Control. That went to Sakura. Naruto and Kakashi both knew that Sasuke wasn't a genius in regards to Chakra Control and that even he had issues with Chakra Control as well. His ability to obtain both Katon and Raiton elemental manipulation within a similar time-frame suggests that he has an affinity for Raiton. Even if he were a genius, him having an affinity in Katon only implies he'd have an easier time mastering Katon rather than Raiton.

I also believe that Kakashi's statement with Sasuke's talent in elemental recomposition had to do with the fact that even with an affinity for Raiton, it still took a number of days in order to master it as we know that Sasuke isn't a genius in chakra control.

Well as i said, it depends on the individual and you might be right when talking about the average shinobi but we aren't here.

He was already shown high level of mastery of 5 elements, He has shown to be able to use Yang release via shadow clone jutsu and apprently has Yin release with his 5 in Genjutsu and the hype he was given in the viz here

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Multiple ninja have a 5 in Genjutsu, including Orochimaru, but that doesn't imply he can use Yin Release or Yang Release on the level of those who inherited those techniques through their blood/chakra.

All that scan tells me is that he has a vast array of knowledge and experience in terms of jutsu. Him mastering over 1000 illusions does not imply that he can use Yin Release on par with clans who are respected for that quality as those illusions can very well be require a rather low application of Yin Release.

In terms of feats, there's nothing that even suggests that he has a high level of Yin Release when he was trapped and unable to break through a genjutsu that didn't seem very potent.

Well it's not like Ino nor shikamaru were profound geniuses in their clan, born with natural abilities above that of everyone else.
(Note, I'm not talking about Genius in terms of intelligence but skill and ability)
Yet constantly shikamaru was able to catch people in shadow possession way above his own level and Ino even managed to take control of war arc obito who was connected to the juubi even for an instant.

Of course not, but their proficiency of those abilities stems from their own clan, so naturally, they're going to superior in what they inherited compared someone like Hiruzen, esp. when he hasn't inherited Yin or Yang Release through his bloodline.

Then that just goes to show the type of genius kakashi is.
Yes normally a non-uchiha cannot master the sharingan but again you aren't taking individual skill/ability into the equation.

No, a non-Uchiha cannot master the Sharingan. Manga never made the distinction of what type of people can master a Dojutsu that's not there's. All that was mentioned is that the original owner has higher potential than someone who is simply "borrowing" their Dojutsu.

@bold, Yes but the rinnegan is slightly different from the sharingan. The Rinnegan takes incredible chakra reserves to the point not even a pure blooded uchiha like obito with Senju DNA couldn't use both eyes, He could barely handle one.

Databook confirms that this is not the case. The only difference is the level of strain it places on its user, but the Sharingan's effects on a non-Uchiha still applies:

The trap created by great power

The "Mangekyou Sharingan" is a doujutsu that, with continuous usage, burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of "Kamui," using it in rapid succession puts Kakashi's body at risk as well.

［picture of Kakashi holding his hand over his eye］
↑Kakashi obtained his "Sharingan" though a transplant. The strain his body suffers may be far more severe than the a member of the "Uchiha clan" would suffer.

It's also important to note that in the context of the scan you presented, Obito commented on Kakashi's "mastery" over the Sharingan due to using it to complement his Raikiri, but this is something that Gaiden Kakashi and 2T Sasuke could so as well, so using just that scan doesn't at all prove that Kakashi had mastered the Sharingan.

Yet nagato, a person not born of ocular ninjutsu, whos body was not naturally accustomed to it was able to use both eyes since he was a child, before he even became a ninja or learn't ninja techniques for that matter.

Was he able to use it as well as Madara could once he obtained more experience?

No, he couldn't.

Another example of individual ability, Since on paper due to his lack of uchiha blood/Senju blood you would laugh if someone said an Uzumaki could withstand madara double rinnegan when an uchiha failed to do so.

That merely proves my point. If Obito was unable to use both Rinnegan whereas Nagato could, it only implies that Nagato's Lifeforce was stronger due to Yang Release being something Nagato inherited whereas it wasn't something Obito inherited.

 

[~Ethereal~]

So...Hiruzen wins?

 

[Curse Mark]

So...Hiruzen wins?

Yeeee

 

[NarutoX28]

So...Hiruzen wins?

Yes, Prime Hiruzen wins.