old Hiruzen vs 4 tailed Naruto

Draegod

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Having a natural affinity to an element doesn't automatically make you better at that element than people without an affinity for that element. It gives you an advantage sure but skill can easily close that gap.

Sasuke is a perfect example. His natural affinity if katon because he is uchiha and hence why he was able to use it at a very young age, He prefers Raiton because it fits in better with his overall fighting style than katon does. yet he is arguably better at kakashi at raiton dispite kakashi having the natural advantage with chakra affinity.

Hiruzen's natural affinity is katon, Yet all his other elements have show to be just as powerful and just as large.






Why wouldn't i?



The statement is right there in front of you. The original owner of that eye outright stated kakashi both honed and mastered his sharingan eye, Manga fact.

Your the one contradicting the manga by denying the very scan i posted.

You see why I told him to stop quoting me? He Denies the manga time and time again with BS responses that he pulls out is A'ss. He is one stupid response away from finally getting blocked.
 

Unorthodox

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Are we arguing Hiruzen can use all these jutsu?

I tend to stick with feats here and Naruto wins this especially in s2
 

Icelerate

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It's the same as Ninjutsu elements.

A person each has one element they are efficient at using, But this doesn't mean they cannot effectively use elements their chakra is not automatically accustomed to.

Even if he can only use them on an average clan members level, That's more than enough.
Where was it stated or implied Hiruzen can use hiden techniques on the level of average clan members? What exactly is an average clan member? That's more than enough to do what exactly?

Are we arguing Hiruzen can use all these jutsu?

I tend to stick with feats here and Naruto wins this especially in s2
If this was Sasuke you'd probably be singing a different tune though.
 
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NarutoX28

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Having a natural affinity to an element doesn't automatically make you better at that element than people without an affinity for that element. It gives you an advantage sure but skill can easily close that gap.

I agree with the last sentence, but the one with the affinity for the technique will have higher potential using that element than someone who doesn't. My problem with your thinking is that you're under the assumption that Hiruzen can master all elements like he has an affinity for them all. This is simply not true as that is a power associated with Rikudou's Power. This is why it makes no sense to me at all.

Sasuke is a perfect example. His natural affinity if katon because he is uchiha and hence why he was able to use it at a very young age, He prefers Raiton because it fits in better with his overall fighting style than katon does. yet he is arguably better at kakashi at raiton dispite kakashi having the natural advantage with chakra affinity.

That's hard to say. Sasuke has incorporated both Katon and Raiton and both seem to complement his fighting style.

Raiton seems to be Sasuke's affinity IMO. Kakashi mentioned how even took a large number of days (presumably under a week) and we have to take into consideration how Sasuke also effectively mastered Katon rather quickly as well. I believe it's fair to assume that since Sasuke mastered Raiton so quickly as well that it's also his affinity which makes sense when Indra is also associated with Raiton.

Hiruzen's natural affinity is katon, Yet all his other elements have show to be just as powerful and just as large.

That's a good argument, but that doesn't tell me how well he can perform Yin and Yang Release. To me, it doesn't make sense. I don't expect an Uchiha to perform Yang Release on the level that a Senju can as the Senju inherited Yang Release whereas the Uchiha didn't, so they're going to be less effective in utilizing it overall. Same thing with clans. Specific clans inherit hiden ninjutsu and so I don't expect a clan who has inherited Yang Release to use Yin Release on the same level as a clan that has inherited Yin Release. Hiruzen hasn't inherited both, so I cannot expect him to use it on the level as other clans can.

Why wouldn't i?

Why would using it on the level as Jonin enable him to defeat KN4 Naruto?

The statement is right there in front of you. The original owner of that eye outright stated kakashi both honed and mastered his sharingan eye, Manga fact.

Your the one contradicting the manga by denying the very scan i posted.

Manga has time and time again emphasized how only the original owner can use the power of the eyes to its full potential. Even Nagato who had vast experience with the Rinnegan was unable to use it on the level as Madara can despite having far more experience with it.

Since it's not Kakashi's eyes, he does not have the potential to master the power of Obito's Sharingan. That contradicts the manga.

Given that, it's a fair assumption that Obito commented on Kakashi's proficiency and skill in using the Sharingan.

I appreciate you giving a respectful response instead of degrading me unlike other members in this section.

@Draegod

Please stop complaining about me quoting you. Instead of complaining and treating me like shit, why not just ask politely? If you're so butt-hurt about it, I'll stop quoting you, but please stop being a baby about it.
 
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Waltz

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Well tbh you don't need to have Rikudo powers to easily excel at all elemental types when Natural selection for that particular prowess could do it for you which seems to be Hiruzens case.​
 

NarutoX28

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Well tbh you don't need to have Rikudo powers to easily excel at all elemental types when Natural selection for that particular prowess could do it for you which seems to be Hiruzens case.​

He's claiming that Hiruzen can use elements on the same level as he could with an affinity which is wrong because mastery over all elements is a power only Rikudou's Chakra provides.
 

Waltz

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He's claiming that Hiruzen can use elements on the same level as he could with an affinity which is wrong because mastery over all elements is a power only Rikudou's Chakra provides.

Alright I get that but besides Rikudo's Chakra; natural selection for that particular prowess can also make that possible and if that individual happens to become a Hokage who has access to vast amounts of Jutsu for each elemental type you'll have a display.​
 
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TRE MERCER

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It's doesn't matter what you believe. The manga states he could just like the DB stated Yata can block all attacks. You can't believe on and disregard the other
Your contradicting yourself. If someone believes that Yata can block anything you shouldn't have a problem with that since your implying the same logic to defend Hiruzen ability to use all Konoha Jutsu.

So im not sure what your arguing here. Let's just stick to feats in a vs thread it makes it much more simpler. Not to mention in Hiruzens old age given him feats to use all of Konoha jutsu wouldn't mean much since his chakra reserves are pissy.
 

NarutoX28

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Alright I get that but besides Rikudo's Chakra; natural selection for that particular prowess can also make that possible and if that individual happes to become a Hokage who has access to vast amounts of Jutsu for each elemental type you'll have a display.​

How so? We've witnessed Kages who have displayed superior usage of multiple elements through Kekkai Tota being unable to master all elements. It's simply not doable.
 

Waltz

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How so? We've witnessed Kages who have displayed superior usage of multiple elements through Kekkai Tota being unable to master all elements. It's simply not doable.
The difference between both groups being Natural selection says Hiruzen was born with the genetic makeup that would have made him capable of mastering all elemental types while this is not the case for the Kages you've mentioned because they were not naturally selected for the particular prowess.​
 
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NarutoX28

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The difference between both groups being Natural selection says Hiruzen was born with the genetic makeup that would have made him capable of mastering all elemental types while this is not the case for the Kages you've mentioned because they were not naturally selected for the particular prowess.​

No, Databook claims that he was talented in ninjutsu due to his ability to use all nature alterations and hiden ninjutsu along with the wide array of techniques he actually has learned. I believe there is some relevance to my argument when you take into consideration that despite those Kages using Kekkai Tota, there was only one element that they were shown to have mastered.
 

Waltz

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No, Databook claims that he was talented in ninjutsu due to his ability to use all nature alterations and hiden ninjutsu along with the wide array of techniques he actually has learned. I believe there is some relevance to my argument when you take into consideration that despite those Kages using Kekkai Tota, there was only one element that they were shown to have mastered.
The thing is even if I took your argument which say's that him having mastery over all elementary types can only be achievable via having a affinity for each or having Rikudou Chakra into consideration----Natural selection says he can have this mastery without either and him being able to master all these altercations and other Jutsu was consequent of him being Naturally selected for the particular prowess.​
 

NarutoX28

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The thing is even if I took your argument which say's that him having mastery over all elementary types can only be achievable via having a affinity for each or having Rikudou Chakra into consideration----Natural selection says he can have this mastery without either and him being able to master all these altercations and other Jutsu was consequent of him being Naturally selected for the particular prowess.​

In order to believe this, I need a statement from the Manga or the Databook that suggests Hiruzen had that potential.
 

Waltz

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The kages who perform KKG's not being able to use all the elements has nothing to do with Hiruzen being naturally selected for that particular skill: To proficiently master each elemental type.​
 
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NarutoX28

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The kages who perform KKT's not being able to use all the elements has nothing to do with Hiruzen being naturally selected for that particular skill: To proficiently master each elemental type.​

It does. Being able to use KKT's requires a much higher level of skill over their elements yet there was one element that they were proficient in compared to the 2 other elements that they use.

My question is what evidence is there that suggests Hiruzen has the potential to master all elements the way Rinnegan users are able to?
 

Waltz

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In order to believe this, I need a statement from the Manga or the Databook that suggests Hiruzen had that potential.

Why do you need proof of him potentially being able to master the elements when he's already shown that he's mastered the elements?​
 

Waltz

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It does. Being able to use KKT's requires a much higher level of skill over their elements yet there was one element that they were proficient in compared to the 2 other elements that they use.
What does this have to do with Natural selection for the particular prowess of mastering elemental techniques where Hiruzen is concerned?​
 

NarutoX28

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Why do you need proof of him potentially being able to master the elements when he's already shown that he's mastered the elements?​

It hasn't been shown or stated. His proficiency with elements such as Doton or Suiton hasn't been shown to be as potent or versatile as Kisame's or Kitsuchi's. His Raiton also hasn't bee shown to be as versatile as Sasuke's or Kakashi's and Sasuke reached the peak of Raiton manipulation through Kirin.
 

NarutoX28

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What does this have to do with Natural selection for the particular prowess of mastering elemental techniques where Hiruzen is concerned?​

It's more of a point that Hiruzen cannot use KKG whereas other Kages can which signify higher skill in using those particular elements yet were shown to have only mastered one of the elements that composes that KKG.
 

Waltz

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It hasn't been shown or stated. His proficiency with elements such as Doton or Suiton hasn't been shown to be as potent or versatile as Kisame's or Kitsuchi's.
Ad Ignorantiam.​
 
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