old Hiruzen vs 4 tailed Naruto

[Draegod]

Its as follows:

"He can use all of Konohas Jutsu because the Databook and Orochimaru claimed he could but he can't use every jutsu in the Village of Konoha but don't worry that's not at all a contradictory and I am sure that even as an old man Hiruzen still knew the handseal combinations of every jutsu in Konoha I think he can perform and can use them in battle despite Orochimaru already stating that his performance against him was inferior to 10 years prior and him not showing anything near 50% of what I am claiming he could produce and my evidence is that the Databook and Manga say's he could and we saw him use less than 1/4 of all of the jutsu in Konoha but hey! Don't look at that. Ignore the fact that I think at 70years old his brain contains information about more jutsu then Kakahi was claimed to copy with the Sharingan but Look at the fact that he was a researcher and mastered all the elements because that is evidence supporting the claim. Don't worry about the many different Hidden clan Jutsus in the village look and the only one he was ever able to perform. Yes, what I am telling you is that because he can perform one it therefore he knows all and calm your nipples, this isn't wank. Although it is no where written that it was in his physical prime he mastered this vast array of jutsu, Look at the fact that I think this is when it happened and he kept all this information in his brain to the grave and lol don't worry about the fact that no one ever kept tabs or there being any documented fact on him learning every Jutsu because people don't spread rumors in the NV and its written in the Databook so it has to be true. Any jutsu a Genin can perform can be performed by Hiruzen at a high level because I know the order by which he learned Jutsu and it was easiest first so these he can use in battle because I know he remebers these at 70years of age Databook and Manga claims are true here because despite the vast lack of evidence I think it's true. The author wrote it there, so it's true. The author also wrote Yata being able to defend against any attack but sike! That ain't true because that's fallacious and Itachi isn't Hiruzen and to end THIS IS NOT A WANK. "​

You sound hurt bro. It's ok, it'll br alright. lol You don't seem to get what the manga has shown at all, it's cool though. Continue to believe what you want, because it benefits your mysterious purpose. It's not that serious bro, its just fiction. haha

 

[Waltz]

You sound hurt bro. It's ok, it'll br alright. lol You don't seem to get what the manga has shown at all, it's cool though. Continue to believe what you want, because it benefits your mysterious purpose. It's not that serious bro, its just fiction. haha

Nahh Drae. Just saying that possibility doesn't make something true. Sufficient evidence of achievements to validate a claim makes something true. Giving Hiruzen Justus we don't know if he is mentally and physically capable to replicate at 70 while his combat skills would have deteriorated seems rather vague.


OT: Hiruzen wins scenario 1; iffy about Scenario two but Narutos irrational behavior may just provide Sarutobi Victory. ​

 

[Draegod]

Nahh Drae. Just saying that possibility doesn't make something true. Sufficient evidence of achievements to validate a claim makes something true. Giving Hiruzen Justus we don't know if he is mentally and physically capable to replicate at 70 while his combat skills would have deteriorated seems rather vague. ​

Used Hidden Jutsu perfectly? Check!
Used s rank jutsu perfectly? Check!
Used all elements at a Bijuu level? check!
Smartest Kage? Check!
Has crystal ball to see all training and activities in village? Check!
Confirmed By Kishi himself Twice and recently? Check!
Praised by one of the most smartest ninjas Oru? Check!
Village is his "family?" Check!


Can Itachi use Water shark jutsu after seeing Kisames Jutsu thousands of times and having water style?.... According to your logic, no. Bro, either go with the manga and Kishi or stop posting on the topic.

 

[Waltz]

- Used all the Hidden Jutsu in Konoha or anything near that amount to even validate the claim? (X)

-Do you know that using 1does not equate to the ability to use any and all? (X)

- Used S rank jutsu anywhere in quantity as the amount in Konoha? (X)

- Ability to use all the elements = Jutsu knowledge? (X)

- Being the smartest Hokage = Jutsu Knowledge? (X)

- Any evidence of him using the crystal ball to learn Jutsu? (X)

- Confirmed by Kishi in a source who's information is always 100% reliable? (X)

-Being praised by your student = Hiruzen knowing every Jutsu in Konoha? (X)

-Was it possible for Hiruzen at any point to learn every single Jutsu in the Village of Konoha? (X)

Except Hiruzen doesn't have a Sharingan and is a different Character from itachi and then there's no proof that Hiruzen used this crystal ball to learn Jutsu when the purpose of it when used by him was to moniter training activities. I'll go with what you're saying once u can prove to me that Hiruzen knows every jutsu in Konoha and explain to me why hardcore Hiruzen fans try to subtract KKG's from all the Jutsu in Konoha when they actually comprise it. If you can't learn the Bloodline limit Jutsus in Konoha then you don't know all the Justus in Konoha so the statement is already contradicted at that point. Databook exaggerations and unrelated facts about Hiruzen doesn't change that meaning that you're wrong.

 

[ComplexCity]

Nahh Drae. Just saying that possibility doesn't make something true. Sufficient evidence of achievements to validate a claim makes something true. Giving Hiruzen Justus we don't know if he is mentally and physically capable to replicate at 70 while his combat skills would have deteriorated seems rather vague.


OT: Hiruzen wins scenario 1; iffy about Scenario two but Narutos irrational behavior may just provide Sarutobi Victory. ​

You're the same guy that tried to validate Yatas hype without proving it's validity against elemental jutsu and now you're arguing with the manga. Be hie and withdraw cause you look kinda silly


....I won't derail tho

 

[Waltz]

You're the same guy that tried to validate Yatas hype without proving it's validity against elemental jutsu and now you're arguing with the manga. Be hie and withdraw cause you look kinda silly


....I won't derail tho

...But since Yata's validity against elemental jutsu where its abilities as a shield are concerned which you fallaciously tried to and failed to deny with a lack of evidence is completely irrelevant to it being able to defend against any and all attacks which is hyperbolic and unrelated to the quoted section of my post the only thing that was derailed was your ability to differentiate. ​

 

[Waltz]

I can believe that Yata can defend against elemental attacks because the shield has the ability to alter its properties to counterbalance incoming attacks. I do not believe it can withstand any and all attacks because that's applying the no limits fallacy to the shield to say that it can withstand an infinite pressure and quantity of attacks from any opposing force. I cannot agree to Hiruzen knowing every Jutsu in Konoha when most of all Konoha comprises of Jutsu Hiruzen cannot learn. ​

 

[ComplexCity]

...But since Yata's validity against elemental jutsu where its abilities as a shield are concerned which you fallaciously tried to and failed to deny with a lack of evidence is completely irrelevant to it being able to defend against any and all attacks which is hyperbolic and unrelated to the quoted section of my post the only thing that was derailed was your ability to differentiate. ​

Ummm

Giving Hiruzen Justus we don't know if he is mentally and physically capable to replicate at 70 while his combat skills would have deteriorated seems rather vague. ​

Yet you said Yatas hype against Elemental Jutsu is valid because it block explosions. Please just stop​

 

[ComplexCity]

I can believe that Yata can defend against elemental attacks because the shield has the ability to alter its properties to counterbalance incoming attacks. I do not believe it can withstand any and all attacks because that's applying the no limits fallacy to the shield to say that it can withstand an infinite pressure and quantity of attacks from any opposing force. I cannot agree to Hiruzen knowing every Jutsu in Konoha when most of all Konoha comprises of Jutsu Hiruzen cannot learn. ​

It's doesn't matter what you believe. The manga states he could just like the DB stated Yata can block all attacks. You can't believe on and disregard the other

 

[Waltz]

Ummm



Yet you said Yatas hype against Elemental Jutsu is valid because it block explosions. Please just stop

I said specifically that? Do quote. :coffee

One more time, homie: I literally just said I don't believe either. I do not believe it can block any and all attacks because that's applying the No limits fallacy to the shield and I do not believe Hiruzen knows all of Konohas jutsu because there are Jutsu in the village of Konoha Hiruzen cannot learn. It being written in the databook and suggested in the Manga doesn't make it valid.​

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[ComplexCity]

I said specifically that? Do quote. :coffee​

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Sure thing buddy

My argument is there is evidence for Yata's abilities that are written in the Databook description on the shield that would allow it to negate Jinton which is by altering it's properties and if it is able to do this for Omnyoudon as well then it will negate it, ​

Indirectly stating that it could based off DB hype and a blocked Kunai explosion. You also stated that there is evidence support your claim. Errr? What evidence?

Again you can't agree with Yatas hype and then disregard Hiruzens hype as they come from the same source. If you wanna debate about this go back to the Jinton thread. Just found your argument illogical

 

[NarutoX28]

lol Now you're just making the shit up. He is being passed down the sc\ecrets on how to use the jutsu, it isnt a KKG blood limit only techs. Hiruzen is both Yin and Yang master, he mastered the jutsu's as stated by Kishi himself no disputing my guy.

The uchiha example is horrible and sad considering:

1. Sharingan is KKG
2. Itachi praised Kakashi for mastering the eyes despite not being from his clan. He is th ebest 3 tomoe user we have ever seen making use of teh full potential of the eyes despite never being trained by an uchiha or being from the clan. lmao

Clans inherited some sort of bloodline/ chakra that enables them to utilize Yin and Yang Release. This is exactly why the Akimichi clan specializes in Yang Release whereas the Nara clan specializes in Yin Release. Likewise, it's the same reason why Naruto specializes in Yang Release whereas Sasuke specializes in Yin Release as their bloodline/ chakra enables them to become more proficient in Yang or Yin Release respectively.

Hiruzen has no such bloodline, so he's not going to be as effective at using Yin techniques that specific clans specializes in.

Itachi didn't praise Kakashi for mastering the Sharingan. I'm not sure where you got that from, not when Obito and Sasuke emphasized how an Uchiha can use the Sharingan better than a non-Uchiha.

Hidden clan techs are just that, hidden clan techs. Techs passed down with in clans. Just like RDS being passed down in the Uzamaki clan and whirlpool country, but wait! Hiruzen and minato mastered a Jutsu that was specifically from Uzamaki's clan that even Oru never heard of. He cannonly Used a hidden clan s rank jutsu perfectly.

RDS was never stated to be a Yang Release technique or something that is exclusive the Uzumakis. We saw what Uzumakis were capable of when they did use a sealing technique that was inherited which was displayed by Kushina, so yes, Uzumakis do have their own sealing techniques that they specialize in. Since RDS is not a Yang Release technique, what you're saying here is entirely irrelevant.

Not wasting my time with clueless users who defy Manga and databook facts with literally nothing but there ass hurt feelings because they dont want to believe a character could be so powerful. Just keep praising sasuke and stop quoting me.

No offense, but I'm not sure why you're giving me this attitude when I only mentioned this once.

 

[Waltz]

Sure thing buddy




Indirectly stating that it could based off DB hype and a blocked Kunai explosion. You also stated that there is evidence support your claim. Errr? What evidence?

Again you can't agree with Yatas hype and then disregard Hiruzens hype as they come from the same source. If you wanna debate about this go back to the Jinton thread. Just found your argument illogical

As I said your ability to differentiate between Yata's abilities as a shield and a Hyperbole on the shield is why you're misunderstanding my line of reasoning. The databooks excerpt of the shield gives 2 things, A description of the shields abilities being able to alter its properties to defend against incoming attacks and it gives a hyperbole of it being able to defend against any and all attacks. A hyperbole is an exaggerated claim not meant to be taken literally and is vastly different from a description of ability​

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[Exaar]

Clans inherited some sort of bloodline/ chakra that enables them to utilize Yin and Yang Release.

No.

If hidden clan techniques requires certain chakra/bloodline which allowed them to use it, Then it would be classified as KKG. It's classified as Hidden because it has no like bloodline requirement.
Even the 4th databooks mention Hidden techniques when talking about hiruzen's mastery over ninjutsu

Spoiler

Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

Itachi didn't praise Kakashi for mastering the Sharingan. I'm not sure where you got that from, not when Obito and Sasuke emphasized how an Uchiha can use the Sharingan better than a non-Uchiha.

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[NarutoX28]

No.

If hidden clan techniques requires certain chakra/bloodline which allowed them to use it, Then it would be classified as KKG. It's classified as Hidden because it has no like bloodline requirement.
Even the 4th databooks mention Hidden techniques when talking about hiruzen's mastery over ninjutsu

Spoiler

Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

Nope, I merely meant that it was their chakra and KKG that enables certain clans to utilize Yin Release on a higher level.

I agree, he can use Yin and Yang Release, but how does that indicate how effectively he can use it? That's right, it doesn't.

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The last two words implied that he reached a level that was respectable. If he truly mastered it, then Itachi would've outright said so instead of admitting that he mastered it "this much" ...

 

[ComplexCity]

As I said your ability to differentiate between Yata's abilities as a shield and a Hyperbole on the shield is why you're misunderstanding my line of reasoning. The databooks excerpt of the shield gives 2 things, A description of the shields abilities being able to alter its properties to defend against incoming attacks and it gives a hyperbole of it being able to defend against any and all attacks. A hyperbole is an exaggerated claim not meant to be taken literally and is vastly different from a description of ability​

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And as I stated before, the source from which you are deriving your argument has been disproved on multiple occasions. Kabutowari was explained and according to your logic, it should bypass Yata regardless of what it changes is form too because it was described to be able penetrate ANY defense.


You're trying to argue with whether or not Hiruzen can use the multitude of jutsu in the leaf when it's been stated he can do so. Minus KKG, you have zero reason to deny that he can.


Not posting more on this topic as its derailing. Already told you what u need to do

 

[Exaar]

I agree, he can use Yin and Yang Release, but how does that indicate how effectively he can use it? That's right, it doesn't.

It's the same as Ninjutsu elements.

A person each has one element they are efficient at using, But this doesn't mean they cannot effectively use elements their chakra is not automatically accustomed to.

Even if he can only use them on an average clan members level, That's more than enough.

The last two words implied that he reached a level that was respectable. If he truly mastered it, then Itachi would've outright said so instead of admitting that he mastered it "this much" ...

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Better?

 

[Waltz]

And as I stated before, the source from which you are deriving your argument has been disproved on multiple occasions. Kabutowari was explained and according to your logic, it should bypass Yata regardless of what it changes is form too because it was described to be able penetrate ANY defense.


You're trying to argue with whether or not Hiruzen can use the multitude of jutsu in the leaf when it's been stated he can do so. Minus KKG, you have zero reason to deny that he can.


Not posting more on this topic as its derailing. Already told you what u need to do

Lel. You're wrong according to my logic Kabutowari breaking any defense is another no limits fallacy just like Yata defending against any attack. They're both false.


Again once you minus KKG you're already taking away from all the Jutsu in Konoha to begin with so the claim that he knows all is already denounced then and there, then they're other factors to consider concerning that and this particular matchup which I covered in my very first post in this thread.


I'm not going back to that thread to waste posts trying to explain the definition of hyperbole and how to identify one.​

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[NarutoX28]

It's the same as Ninjutsu elements.

A person each has one element they are efficient at using, But this doesn't mean they cannot effectively use elements their chakra is not automatically accustomed to.

Certain clans specialize in specific elements which is why they're better than other clans overall, likely due to elemental affinities. It's the same reason why Kakashi is more proficient in Raiton compared to other elements as that is his natural affinity. It's also important to note that Hiruzen cannot master all elements due to his inheritance. This is a power only associated with those of the Six Paths Power. No amount of training will allow Hiruzen to perform every jutsu at its highest level as he doesn't have the Chakra necessary to do so.

Even if he can only use them on an average clan members level, That's more than enough.

Why do you think that though?

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Better?

Nope. If you're taking that statement too literally, you're contradicting the manga.

Kakashi will not and ever be able to use a Sharingan at its highest level because it's not even his. All he's claiming is that he managed to use it exceptionally. The sentence itself is redundant and there's no point in saying that he honed it if he didn't master it. If he had mastered it, then stating that he mastered it instead of saying that he really honed and mastered it would make more sense.

 

[Exaar]

Certain clans specialize in specific elements which is why they're better than other clans overall, likely due to elemental affinities. It's the same reason why Kakashi is more proficient in Raiton compared to other elements as that is his natural affinity. It's also important to note that Hiruzen cannot master all elements due to his inheritance. This is a power only associated with those of the Six Paths Power. No amount of training will allow Hiruzen to perform every jutsu at its highest level as he doesn't have the Chakra necessary to do so.

Having a natural affinity to an element doesn't automatically make you better at that element than people without an affinity for that element. It gives you an advantage sure but skill can easily close that gap.

Sasuke is a perfect example. His natural affinity if katon because he is uchiha and hence why he was able to use it at a very young age, He prefers Raiton because it fits in better with his overall fighting style than katon does. yet he is arguably better at kakashi at raiton dispite kakashi having the natural advantage with chakra affinity.

Hiruzen's natural affinity is katon, Yet all his other elements have show to be just as powerful and just as large.

Why do you think that though?

Why wouldn't i?

Nope. If you're taking that statement too literally, you're contradicting the manga.

Kakashi will not and ever be able to use a Sharingan at its highest level because it's not even his.

The statement is right there in front of you. The original owner of that eye outright stated kakashi both honed and mastered his sharingan eye, Manga fact.

Your the one contradicting the manga by denying the very scan i posted.