Rinnegan Sasuke vs. BSM Naruto

[Eng nawashi]

Please elaborate. Naruto did, so Sasuke did as well and I can show you the scans that prove it.

Naruto had Rikudo chakra because of having all biju chakra .that was stated in shikamaru hiden novel .the seals are what contained hagromo chakra for the seal purpose with them being capable of extracting some of it to empower thier techs. that was shown when Sasuke had to draw Rikudo chakra from the seal in order to create a Rikudo chakra empowered attack (something that he shouldn't have been forced to do if he had had rikudo chakra flowing through his body already)meaning we know for a fact that the seals contain a part of hagromo chakra .DB states that the Moon seal requires massive amounts of chakra (very logical considering the size of it )which means the seals contain huge part of hagromo chakra if not all of it which shuts down the widespread fanfic that each of Naruto and Sasuke received half hagromo chakra .Sasuke's power up was Rinnegan shown by manga on Madara's tongue and stated by DB in sasuke's profile ( "on meeting hagromo sasuke awakened Rinnegan and received the key to sell kaguya" no mention to hagromo chakra half).but by somehow we have some people here trying to introduce the hagromo chakra fanfic as Naruto and Sasuke's main power up though DB and manga never did so .so it is either they didn't receive hagromo chakra or they received hagromo chakra but it isn't worth mentioning for some reason which isn't the case .

A regular pair of Rinnegan doesn't enhance Sharingan abilities directly as it's not being used with the Sharingan simultaneously and doesn't reflect Indra's Chakra or the Sharingan whereas the Tomoe Rinnegan does. What I mean by this is that the Rinnegan's chakra does enhance the techniques such as Susano'o due to Rikudou > Indra's Chakra, but the eyes themselves don't enhance the Sharingan's abilities.

One example of the Rinnegan enhancing the Sharingan's abilities directly is this:

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Where Sasuke doesn't use his dominant eye in Genjutsu meaning that the only likely conclusion is that Sasuke used the Rinnegan's ocular prowess to strengthen his Sharingan's abillities.

This also explains why Mugen Tsukyomi requires the RinneSharingan (A superior variant of the Tomoe Rinnegan) as it requires the Rinnegan to boost the ocular prowess of the Sharingan.

I can't see that working for any sharingan tech excluding Genjutsu .

 

[TheSages456]

The Naruto from the last movie still has his rikudou upgrades, whatever mode he caught in during the last does not change that fact. So no, it does not make him the same as the last Naruto. It's just BSM(juubito fight) Naruto with a lot more chakra.

A rikudou Sasuke(even indirect rikudou chakra from mixing Indra and ashura) still slaughters him.

What are you talking about?

This upgrade that you're talking about is Six Paths Sage Mode, something that Naruto didn't use in The Last.

The Naruto in this thread & The Last Naruto are using the exact same form, so nope, they are the same exact character outside of some feats that Naruto showed specifically in The Last.

 

[NarutoX28]

Naruto had Rikudo chakra because of having all biju chakra .that was stated in shikamaru hiden novel .the seals are what contained hagromo chakra for the seal purpose with them being capable of extracting some of it to empower thier techs.

Which is wrong because if that were the case, Naruto and Sasuke would've lost their Rikudou Power Ups and would've lost the ability to display Mastery over Yin and Yang Release.

Naruto's Rikudou Chakra was never received from having all of the Bijuu's Chakra. If that were the case, then Hagoromo would've given Naruto nothing whereas Sasuke would've received the Rinnegan which makes no sense because Hagoromo distributed his power equally to both Naruto and Sasuke.

that was shown when Sasuke had to draw Rikudo chakra from the seal in order to create a Rikudo chakra empowered attack (something that he shouldn't have been forced to do if he had had rikudo chakra flowing through his body already)meaning we know for a fact that the seals contain a part of hagromo chakra.

If Rikudou's Chakra is only contained in the seal, then why're both of Naruto and Sasuke's capabilities boosted to the point where their reactions were shown to be on par with Madara who possessed the full power of the Juubi?

Why Sasuke and Naruto used their Seals for their technique was likely to apply the Yin and Yang Seal. Nothing more, nothing less. If Rikudou's Chakra wasn't flowing through Sasuke's body, then his own PS wouldn't have contained feats that demolish what Madara's PS is capable of.

DB states that the Moon seal requires massive amounts of chakra (very logical considering the size of it )which means the seals contain huge part of hagromo chakra if not all of it which shuts down the widespread fanfic that each of Naruto and Sasuke received half hagromo chakra.

Which is likely true because the sealing technique utilizes Chibaku Tensei which requires a large amount of chakra just to form the moon.

But whose to say that Naruto and Sasuke can't distribute the Rikudou Chakra from their body through their dominant arm? You're assuming they can't which is false as clearly, people can distribute chakra through one part of their body ever since Part 1.

Sasuke's power up was Rinnegan shown by manga on Madara's tongue and stated by DB in sasuke's profile ( "on meeting hagromo sasuke awakened Rinnegan and received the key to sell kaguya" no mention to hagromo chakra half).but by somehow we have some people here trying to introduce the hagromo chakra fanfic as Naruto and Sasuke's main power up though DB and manga never did so .so it is either they didn't receive hagromo chakra or they received hagromo chakra but it isn't worth mentioning for some reason which isn't the case .

Okay, let me address this shit.

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Meaning both possesses Half of Hagoromo's Power.

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Hagoromo was capable of using the sealing technique, but couldn't because he lacked the chakra to do so because he already gave it away.

Therefore, both received his chakra.

I can't see that working for any sharingan tech excluding Genjutsu .

Why?

 

[Eng nawashi]

Which is wrong because if that were the case, Naruto and Sasuke would've lost their Rikudou Power Ups and would've lost the ability to display Mastery over Yin and Yang Release.

What does this have to do with mastery over yin and yang?
You can't call it wrong just like that .it is written by one of kishi's assistants ,approved by kishi himself and a part of Naruto's project .
-according to you ,kishi's intention is to pass us the impression that Naruto Rikudo chakra comes from him receiving hagromo chakra half.

-but for some reason ,kishi's closest assistants seem to not have such impression .

-it makes much sense .half dead obito risked his life to complete Naruto's biju chakra not because of some more magnetic and ink release but for something much bigger .it is clear that the power behind having all biju chakra is much bigger than just getting some more chakra and elements.that is why obito risked his life and absorbed portions of shukaku and hachibi particularly .

-the novel statement stays more reliable than your theory as long as the manga doesn't contradict the novel's statement.

Naruto's Rikudou Chakra was never received from having all of the Bijuu's Chakra. If that were the case, then Hagoromo would've given Naruto nothing whereas Sasuke would've received the Rinnegan which makes no sense because Hagoromo distributed his power equally to both Naruto and Sasuke.

-hagromo called upon the biju .
-hagromo gifted Naruto RSM (according to BD) which is something different from all biju power .

If Rikudou's Chakra is only contained in the seal, then why're both of Naruto and Sasuke's capabilities boosted to the point where their reactions were shown to be on par with Madara who possessed the full power of the Juubi?

Naruto is the only one out of the two whose reactions was stated and proved to be on par with Madara thanks to RSM and rikudo senjutsu cloak .I dont see how really that help your case either considering that kakashi who received a little portion of Rikudo chakra displayed arguably better speed and reactions feats than sasuke .
if base Sasuke and base Naruto have hagromo chakra halves flowing through thier bodies,explain why Naruto's power scale drops to pre hagromo meeting version whenever he doesn't use RSM ?explain why opening Portals to kaguya dimension is such chakra taxing to sasuke ?

Why Sasuke and Naruto used their Seals for their technique was likely to apply the Yin and Yang Seal. Nothing more, nothing less. If Rikudou's Chakra wasn't flowing through Sasuke's body, then his own PS wouldn't have contained feats that demolish what Madara's PS is capable of.

Sasuke clearly drew chakra from the seal in order to use the black chidori .not mention that his chidori was white almost every time else ,meaning his chakra doesn't blacken chidori but the seal chakra .

Rinnegan is your answer .

Which is likely true because the sealing technique utilizes Chibaku Tensei which requires a large amount of chakra just to form the moon.

Uh.

But whose to say that Naruto and Sasuke can't distribute the Rikudou Chakra from their body through their dominant arm? You're assuming they can't which is false as clearly, people can distribute chakra through one part of their body ever since Part 1.

:lol so you are saying the chakra of the teen version of the person ,who seems to have chakra difficulties in opening portals to kaguya dimension ,is enough to create a moon when doubled!? .do you realise that teen sakura's yin seal chakra was enough to open 3 or 4 of these portals?
If they used their own reserves in the seal ,there must have been a noticeable massive drop in their chakra .let alone that Sasuke has nowhere near the chakra that when doubled creates a moon considering his chakra reserves feats .

Okay, let me address this shit.

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Meaning both possesses Half of Hagoromo's Power.

The seals is your answer .the seals were referred to as Rikudo' yin and yang power .

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Hagoromo was capable of using the sealing technique, but couldn't because he lacked the chakra to do so because he already gave it away.

Therefore, both received his chakra.

I don't see how that help your case .he split his chakra over the seals thus he hasnt enough chakra to use the summoning .
He restored the seals but most of his chakra if not all of it was used in the seal .

Why?

Elaborate on how it would empower techs like susano and Amatrasu differently from regular pair of Rinnegan .

 

[NarutoX28]

What does this have to do with mastery over yin and yang?
You can't call it wrong just like that .it is written by one of kishi's assistants ,approved by kishi himself and a part of Naruto's project
-according to you ,kishi's intention is to pass us the impression that Naruto Rikudo chakra comes from him receiving hagromo chakra half.

-but for some reason ,kishi's closest assistants seem to not have such impression .

-it makes much sense .half dead obito risked his life to complete Naruto's biju chakra not because of some more magnetic and ink release but for something much bigger .it is clear that the power behind having all biju chakra is much bigger than just getting some more chakra and elements.that is why obito risked his life and absorbed portions of shukaku and hachibi particularly.

Kishimoto's intentions are more valuable than what theories Kishi's assistants hold.

If Kishimoto intended on Naruto to receive Half of Rikudou's Chakra, then he did.

If what you're suggesting is true, then Naruto would've only been able to attain RSM with the Bijuu's complete power even though he's entered Rikudou Sage Mode with no Bijuu influence.

I'm totally confused how the novel statements debunk my argument when it's just based on a baseless assumption.

-the novel statement stays more reliable than your theory as long as the manga doesn't contradict the novel's statement.

Except it contradicts Kishi and the manga as it doesn't think that Naruto received half of Hagoromo's Chakra directly from Hagoromo even though it's stated that Rikudou Senjutsu is a gift from Hagoromo. The Bijuus aren't a gift from Hagoromo as Naruto had their chakras prior to meeting Hagoromo. Therefore, the most likely conclusion is that Naruto received half of Rikudou's Chakra which aligns perfectly to the manga and Kishimoto's intentions.

-hagromo called upon the biju .
-hagromo gifted Naruto RSM (according to BD) which is something different from all biju power.

And how did he gift Naruto with RSM?

Naruto is the only one out of the two whose reactions was stated and proved to be on par with Madara thanks to RSM and rikudo senjutsu cloak.

Sasuke's speed was commended by Juubidara and he literally bisected him.

And then here, we have RSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke having comparable reactions:

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I dont see how really that help your case either considering that kakashi who received a little portion of Rikudo chakra displayed arguably better speed and reactions feats than sasuke.

Arguably, but it's not set in stone.

Though I could just as easily argue that DMS Kakashi possessed better speed and reflexes than RSM Naruto if I wanted to.

if base Sasuke and base Naruto have hagromo chakra halves flowing through thier bodies,explain why Naruto's power scale drops to pre hagromo meeting version whenever he doesn't use RSM ?

I don't know where you're getting at with this.

Hagoromo literally stated that he distributed his power equally to Naruto and Sasuke to prevent a conflict like the one Indra had with Ashura.

explain why opening Portals to kaguya dimension is such chakra taxing to sasuke?

Doesn't prove anything because Kaguya, who possesses more chakra than the Juubi even uses a large amount of chakra traveling to different dimensions.

Sasuke clearly drew chakra from the seal in order to use the black chidori .not mention that his chidori was white almost every time else ,meaning his chakra doesn't blacken chidori but the seal chakra.

Rinnegan is your answer.

And Sasuke applied a sealing technique the same way Naruto did to his technique.

Claiming that he drew upon the seal for Rikudou Chakra isn't a valid argument when I can just as easily claim that it was made to look that way due to his dominant arm being the same arm that possesses the Yin Seal.

But you dodged my question, so answer it.

:lol so you are saying the chakra of the teen version of the person ,who seems to have chakra difficulties in opening portals to kaguya dimension ,is enough to create a moon when doubled!? .do you realise that teen sakura's yin seal chakra was enough to open 3 or 4 of these portals?

Again, that's irrelevant when Kaguya's chakra levels tank due to opening portals to her own dimensions.

Sasuke's own ocular prowess improved after his battle with Kaguya, so what he displayed against Kaguya was inferior to what he could when sealing Kaguya.

And of course, Sasuke had RSM Naruto's help who also possesses all of the Bijuu's Chakra.

And Hagoromo managed to seal Kaguya with Hamura's help without feeling fatigued at all. Why can't RSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke do the same?

If they used their own reserves in the seal ,there must have been a noticeable massive drop in their chakra .let alone that Sasuke has nowhere near the chakra that when doubled creates a moon considering his chakra reserves feats.

And so you realize that they both possessed Half of Rikudou's Chakra or they wouldn't have been able to perform the sealing technique in the first place?

Common sense.

The seals is your answer .the seals were referred to as Rikudo' yin and yang power.

No, Indra and Ashura refer to Rikudou's Yin and Yang Powers respectively. The fact that the seals themselves were referring to as Rikudou's Yin and Yang Power only means that they contained his Yin and Yang sealing techniques. No more, no less.

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Kaguya even refers to the seals as just techniques.

I don't see how that help your case .he split his chakra over the seals thus he hasnt enough chakra to use the summoning.

Ah, but you just stated that Naruto and Sasuke never received half of his Chakra.

He restored the seals but most of his chakra if not all of it was used in the seal.

Which means Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't have Rikudou Chakra after their sealing technique was taken away, correct?

Elaborate on how it would empower techs like susano and Amatrasu differently from regular pair of Rinnegan .

I already did. Did you happen to skim through that part of the post without even refuting it? I'm not going to be playing your little game if you don't happen to refute my argument.

And I might as well answer your question regardless:

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He used the ocular prowess of his Rinnegan for his Susano'o.

 

[Eng nawashi]

Kishimoto's intentions are more valuable than what theories Kishi's assistants hold.

If Kishimoto intended on Naruto to receive Half of Rikudou's Chakra, then he did.

Except that it isnt kishi's intentions ,that is what you think which is wrong .
Are you aware that kishi approved this novel ? which means he could have never let a fatal mistake like that without correcting it? which means kishi approved the novel statement about Naruto's rikudo chakra .
you are dodging my argument bro .i already explained how all biju chakra power is far beyond having thier elements and some more portions of chakra with common sense but you chose to ignore it.

If what you're suggesting is true, then Naruto would've only been able to attain RSM with the Bijuu's complete power even though he's entered Rikudou Sage Mode with no Bijuu influence.

No idea what you are talking about .i never said that RSM needs all biju chakra .may i ask you how do you think RSM works?

I'm totally confused how the novel statements debunk my argument when it's just based on a baseless assumption.

it isnt baseless .it is a statement approved by kishi whether you like it or not .on the other hand your whole theory is based on assumptions and speculations.

Except it contradicts Kishi and the manga as it doesn't think that Naruto received half of Hagoromo's Chakra directly from Hagoromo even though it's stated that Rikudou Senjutsu is a gift from Hagoromo. The Bijuus aren't a gift from Hagoromo as Naruto had their chakras prior to meeting Hagoromo. Therefore, the most likely conclusion is that Naruto received half of Rikudou's Chakra which aligns perfectly to the manga and Kishimoto's intentions.

hagromo gifted Naruto RSM not Rikudo senjutsu chakra .so it doesnt contradicts the manga in any shape or form .
again biju has nothing to do with RSM but Rikudo senjutsu cloak .

And how did he gift Naruto with RSM?

i dont have to explain since manga and DB didnt bother explaining it .you cant give naruto hagromo damn chakra half in order to explain how naruto got RSM when it was never stated that rikudo chakra is a requirement to enter RSM ,at least that isnt what DB says .if what you say was correct ,then DB should have stated it .

Sasuke's speed was commended by Juubidara and he literally bisected him.

ok but that doesnt make him on par with JJ madara speed and again kakashi who has nowhere near hagromo chakra half ,unless hagromo chakra isnt that big which is unlikely ,has speed feats better than that .

And then here, we have RSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke having comparable reactions:

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seriously? naruto and sasuke running to save sakura makes their reactions equal? naruto syncing with sasuke speed in order to seal kaguya makes his speed equal to sasuke? despite it being damn clear that naruto's striking speed is way above sasuke . the latter couldnt land his chidori on kaguya with instant teleportation while the former caught the same kaguya with his shunshin and striking speed .

Arguably, but it's not set in stone.

Though I could just as easily argue that DMS Kakashi possessed better speed and reflexes than RSM Naruto if I wanted to.

yup that is my point .that is why your " they certainly have hagromo chakra halves because their feats" argument fails .

I don't know where you're getting at with this.

if he had rikudo chkara flowing through his body ,he should be still waaay stronger than pre hagromo power up Naruto when utilizing the same mode even if he doesnt use RSM and rikudo senjutsu cloak .but that isnt the case .
whenever naruto doesnt utilize RSM and Rikudo senjutsu cloak ,his power scale drops to pre hagromo power up Naruto .

Hagoromo literally stated that he distributed his power equally to Naruto and Sasuke to prevent a conflict like the one Indra had with Ashura.

yup ,he gifted sasuke rinnegan and naruto RSM .

Doesn't prove anything because Kaguya, who possesses more chakra than the Juubi even uses a large amount of chakra traveling to different dimensions.

the portals were never said to be chakra taxing to kaguya but the dimensional shifting .

And Sasuke applied a sealing technique the same way Naruto did to his technique.

Claiming that he drew upon the seal for Rikudou Chakra isn't a valid argument when I can just as easily claim that it was made to look that way due to his dominant arm being the same arm that possesses the Yin Seal.

Except that his chidori was white almost everytime else ,which means chidori used regularly by sasuke's chakra isnt black ,which means the black chidori he used against Madara was created by the seal chakra otherwise it should have been white ,which means the seal contains rikudo's chakra.

But you dodged my question, so answer it.

rinnegan boost is the answer of your question .

Again, that's irrelevant when Kaguya's chakra levels tank due to opening portals to her own dimensions.

addressed
you dodged my sakura point .salura's yin seal chakra was enough to open 3 or 4 of these portals .

Sasuke's own ocular prowess improved after his battle with Kaguya, so what he displayed against Kaguya was inferior to what he could when sealing Kaguya.

And of course, Sasuke had RSM Naruto's help who also possesses all of the Bijuu's Chakra.

And Hagoromo managed to seal Kaguya with Hamura's help without feeling fatigued at all. Why can't RSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke do the same?

we cant know if hagromo and hamura felt fatigued after the seal or not .opening portals to kaguya's dimension being chakra taxing to sasuke debunks the idea that he has anywhere near half the chakra needed to create moon CT .

And so you realize that they both possessed Half of Rikudou's Chakra or they wouldn't have been able to perform the sealing technique in the first place?

Except that the chakra was attached with the seals .

No, Indra and Ashura refer to Rikudou's Yin and Yang Powers respectively. The fact that the seals themselves were referring to as Rikudou's Yin and Yang Power only means that they contained his Yin and Yang sealing techniques. No more, no less.

no proof for that .

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Kaguya even refers to the seals as just techniques.

because it is for sealing technique .the seals had even a huge chakra ball around it in the scan you provided .

Ah, but you just stated that Naruto and Sasuke never received half of his Chakra.

Yup,the seals are what contained the chakra .

Which means Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't have Rikudou Chakra after their sealing technique was taken away, correct?

they never had hagromom chakra halves flowing through thier bodies in the first place .
naruto can gain rikudo chakra whenever he uses all biju chakra together and sasuke has rinnegan chakra .

Spoiler

To conclude ,No way naruto and sasuke got chakra halves of hagoromo ,not when every thing says they didnt :

-Data book has already listed the powers that sasuke received from hagoromo , hagoromo chakra half wasn't one of these powers . only rinnegan and the key to seal kaguya .this either means that they didn't receive hagormo chakra halves or DB didn't bother mentioning and commenting on that ,and please don't tell me it is the latter .DB comments on every big and small in the manga .don't tell me it didn't bother commenting on the two main characters's greatest power up in the whole series .that is insane and unlikely .

-Naruto and sasuke 's not having hagoromo chakra explains every thing and doesn't contradict any thing in the entire Manga or the whole project of Naruto .
It does explains why Naruto scale power drops to his pre hagoromo power up version's whenever he doesn't use RSM and Rikudo senjutsu cloak ,it does explains why sasuke's chakra reserves is no where near hagoromo's chakra level ,it does explains why DB didn't mention hagromo chakra halves ,it does explains why the novel says Naruto's rikudo chakra comes from having all biju chakra.

On the other hand , "naruto and sasuke have hagoromo chakra halves" ' s theory contradicts every thing I mentioned (DB,Novel ,Naruto's power scale and sasuke's chakra reserves).

- I provided like 4 evidences supporting my argument , you didn't bring one solid evidence on why naruto and sasuke should have hagoromo chakra halves so far .your whole proof is based on assumptions , theories ,speculations and no single solid evidence ,you tried to prove it through their feats arguments and it failed .

It is obvious whose argument is much stronger ,whose argument is supported with solid evidences and whose argument is supported with nothing.
Sorry but long debates dont fit my study ,so this would be probably my last reply .

I already did. Did you happen to skim through that part of the post without even refuting it? I'm not going to be playing your little game if you don't happen to refute my argument.

And I might as well answer your question regardless:

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He used the ocular prowess of his Rinnegan for his Susano'o.

you didnt explain anything bro .you stated it and provided the genjutsu part as an example ,

uh .no proof that susano created by regular pair of rinnegan owner wouldnt do the same regarding IT and even if it doesnt ,their susanos would be exactly the same except for IT blocking part .