[Discussion] Hebrew Bible: Plagiarized and Defaced Monotheism
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Punk Hazard
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The source I got it from was taken down. I just checked. But it provided all the connections between Jezus and hinduism, judaism, astrology, etc.
the sun/horus/jezus walks across the sky/heavens in 12 steps. 'Hours' is derived from 'Horus'.
Jesus, not as a man, but as a metaphor for spiritual and intellectual enlightenment represents the sun. The sun of god. Not the son of god.
Seth, (an egyptian god) means sunset. Seth. Sunset. It's all astrology at its core. That's one interpretation that makes more sense.
Punk Hazard
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Oh yeah, I remember seeing a video called Egypt on the Potomac that detailed about an Egyptian mythology involving Set and Horus that was verryyy familiar.
Ok, I'm here.
I pretty much agree with you and Scaze on this topic. I have already bumped into such accusations before, so I've already got some background knowledge on the issue, so instead of blabbering about stuff we already agree on, I'm going to focus on the author's claim of Judaism stealing from the idea of monotheism from Ancient Egypt.
I will note that, most of the article is less of an argument but rather admiration for various mythologies, with deep undertone of anti-semitism (the author uses many harsh words when talking about Jews/Hebrews), with little to no sources.
So, the key idea here is that monotheism was first created by the pharaoh Akhenaten, who invented the religion Antenism, while the Jews later came in and ripped it off/stole it from there. There are numerious holes here. For starters, it is unknown wether he was in fact the one who introduced monotheism, since scholars are divided on the topic and the very nature of Atenism. For the sake of the argument, let's say he was the first one to proclaim worship of only one god.
In it's beginning Atenism is not really a separate religion, but rather an idea wich put a twist on the traditional Egyptian religion. Every pharaoh that had come before Akhenaten proclaimed one god to be the supreme state god during their reign. In its first phase, Atenism was pretty much that, but with a slight difference. The difference was that pharaoh's usually picked powerfull and wealthy gods to mark their rule, while Akhenaten chose a god whose existence was as irelevant as one's could be. Aten was merely a fragment (a sun disk) of the sun god Re. The reasons for this could be numerious, but speculating aside, this was just a continuation of already established traditions.
As the time passed by, Akhenaten started pushing Aten into the public life more and more. At first he was but a protector of his rule, in the second phase it was declared that other gods are not to be served, not even in the private homes, making Aten the only true god! This was a huge shock for a culture who has up to that moment worshipped whole families of god, thus resulting in a great disgust towards Akhenaten wich gets noticable in years after his death.
Interesting thing about Atenism was the fact that, while it may seem so, this was nothing like the monotheism we know today. In this phase of Aten being the only god, all other gods, idols and their ceremonies were strictly forbidden, except for the idols on wich was ingraved a picture of Akhenaten and his family. A bit interesting detail. Interesting because it presents the pharaoh himself as an idol, a god.
Indeed, all pharaohs before Akhenaten were believed to have divine power and contact with gods, however they weren't presented as gods themselves! It all point more and more to the idea that the introduction of Atenism was to serve as an escalation in Pharaoh's power and rank. Cutting away most of the powers from priests of other gods, Akhenaten empowered his role greately (since a Pharaoh was highly dependant on the prieasts who served in great measure as his advisors).
Numerious Egyptologists have arrived at the same conclusion. Here's a quote from John Baines:
"Amarna religion was a religion of god and king, or even of king first and then god"
This shows that Atenism was barely monotheism we see in Judaism, since it puts man next to god, as an object of worship, whose goal was to strengthen the position of the new king. Not to mention the irresponsible execution of the idea was very harmful to the empire.
Due to all this, Egyptians, soon after Akhenaten's death, went back to their traditional religion.
With this in mind, statements of Judaism stealing monotheism from Atenism is false, since monotheism here, was merely an aspect of monotheism in Judaism, and other religions (both wich spring from it and those wich don't).
Similar cases are with all other accusations of Judeo-Christian beliefs being stolen from pagan religions. The proponents of those theories always point out the similarities, but never the waste differences wich are present between the two. Such are the cases of Mithra, Horus, Osiris and other dieties.
I pretty much agree with you and Scaze on this topic. I have already bumped into such accusations before, so I've already got some background knowledge on the issue, so instead of blabbering about stuff we already agree on, I'm going to focus on the author's claim of Judaism stealing from the idea of monotheism from Ancient Egypt.
I will note that, most of the article is less of an argument but rather admiration for various mythologies, with deep undertone of anti-semitism (the author uses many harsh words when talking about Jews/Hebrews), with little to no sources.
So, the key idea here is that monotheism was first created by the pharaoh Akhenaten, who invented the religion Antenism, while the Jews later came in and ripped it off/stole it from there. There are numerious holes here. For starters, it is unknown wether he was in fact the one who introduced monotheism, since scholars are divided on the topic and the very nature of Atenism. For the sake of the argument, let's say he was the first one to proclaim worship of only one god.
In it's beginning Atenism is not really a separate religion, but rather an idea wich put a twist on the traditional Egyptian religion. Every pharaoh that had come before Akhenaten proclaimed one god to be the supreme state god during their reign. In its first phase, Atenism was pretty much that, but with a slight difference. The difference was that pharaoh's usually picked powerfull and wealthy gods to mark their rule, while Akhenaten chose a god whose existence was as irelevant as one's could be. Aten was merely a fragment (a sun disk) of the sun god Re. The reasons for this could be numerious, but speculating aside, this was just a continuation of already established traditions.
As the time passed by, Akhenaten started pushing Aten into the public life more and more. At first he was but a protector of his rule, in the second phase it was declared that other gods are not to be served, not even in the private homes, making Aten the only true god! This was a huge shock for a culture who has up to that moment worshipped whole families of god, thus resulting in a great disgust towards Akhenaten wich gets noticable in years after his death.
Interesting thing about Atenism was the fact that, while it may seem so, this was nothing like the monotheism we know today. In this phase of Aten being the only god, all other gods, idols and their ceremonies were strictly forbidden, except for the idols on wich was ingraved a picture of Akhenaten and his family. A bit interesting detail. Interesting because it presents the pharaoh himself as an idol, a god.
Indeed, all pharaohs before Akhenaten were believed to have divine power and contact with gods, however they weren't presented as gods themselves! It all point more and more to the idea that the introduction of Atenism was to serve as an escalation in Pharaoh's power and rank. Cutting away most of the powers from priests of other gods, Akhenaten empowered his role greately (since a Pharaoh was highly dependant on the prieasts who served in great measure as his advisors).
Numerious Egyptologists have arrived at the same conclusion. Here's a quote from John Baines:
"Amarna religion was a religion of god and king, or even of king first and then god"
This shows that Atenism was barely monotheism we see in Judaism, since it puts man next to god, as an object of worship, whose goal was to strengthen the position of the new king. Not to mention the irresponsible execution of the idea was very harmful to the empire.
Due to all this, Egyptians, soon after Akhenaten's death, went back to their traditional religion.
With this in mind, statements of Judaism stealing monotheism from Atenism is false, since monotheism here, was merely an aspect of monotheism in Judaism, and other religions (both wich spring from it and those wich don't).
Similar cases are with all other accusations of Judeo-Christian beliefs being stolen from pagan religions. The proponents of those theories always point out the similarities, but never the waste differences wich are present between the two. Such are the cases of Mithra, Horus, Osiris and other dieties.
Ryu Kishi
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The bible once had reincarnation in it until it was deemed heretic, most if not every religion is mesh up of many religion, that is why I say religion is man made. However I'm not saying god does not exist, it just depends on how you define god
Punk Hazard
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Oh man, I didn't notice the anti-semitism so far. I've mostly been clicking the links to the mythologies and seeing what they say and reading those while reading the article.
So, would you say the introduction of Aten was a kind of powerplay by Akhenaten to heighten the way his own authority and power was seen by his followers?
Many years ago as a Christian I started studying other religions with an open mind for the purpose of knowing the truth. I felt that if what I believed was the truth than it would stand up to any challenge I gave it. What I found is that if you look beyond the literal stories of most religions you'll find that the messege hidden in the allagorys,metaphors and parrables all tell basically the same story. It is the literal stories that are culture specific that are used by the heirachy to divide and control ppl.
The truth that I have found for myself is that the intelligent force that created all things does not prefer any people over another. Everyone of us has access to God through our spirit.
Heres the challenge I see. You cant serve 2 masters. We foolishly serve our temporal physical and materialistic desires while ignoring our immortal spiritual needs. If each of us as individuals could master and control our physical desires, it would enable us to realize our spiritual selves. That is were God awaits us all in my op. Not in some religous man made construct that claims only to serve a certain race or religion.
Im certainly not saying I have all the answers but the one thing I am sure about is that no one religion has a monopoly on salvation and for the most part organized religions main purpose is to divide and control ppl. im 40 years old and have almost 20 years of looking at this passionately with an open mind. Ill continue to do so and I encourage everyone to do the same and reach their own conclusions.
The truth that I have found for myself is that the intelligent force that created all things does not prefer any people over another. Everyone of us has access to God through our spirit.
Heres the challenge I see. You cant serve 2 masters. We foolishly serve our temporal physical and materialistic desires while ignoring our immortal spiritual needs. If each of us as individuals could master and control our physical desires, it would enable us to realize our spiritual selves. That is were God awaits us all in my op. Not in some religous man made construct that claims only to serve a certain race or religion.
Im certainly not saying I have all the answers but the one thing I am sure about is that no one religion has a monopoly on salvation and for the most part organized religions main purpose is to divide and control ppl. im 40 years old and have almost 20 years of looking at this passionately with an open mind. Ill continue to do so and I encourage everyone to do the same and reach their own conclusions.
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You're still thinking within the borders of religious logic, which is mental enslavement. Our purpose is not to 'serve' anything or anyone. It is our birthright to be free in any way. We're not here to serve any master. It's ridiculous for the divine presence in the universe, according to the religious interpretation, to want to be served by it's own creations. That's just thinking within the bubble.
I don't think that I am. Living in the will of the creator which is living in harmony with creation is serving the will of the creator. I dont think "God" is asking anymore than that from us but you cant do that if your imortal spirit is slave to your finite flesh. We have to reverse that to live in Gods will or in harmony with all creation.
I hope that makes alittle more sense. Honestly though the more I learn the more I realize how little I know :/
I just used religion as a jumping off point cause thats where I started my journey from.
Dark Sonic
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Dark Sonic
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Also if you look at Da Vincis' The Last Supper painting, Jesus sits in the middle with the 12 disciples in groups of 3 around him in the same way, when you look at the Zodiac wheel with the cross in the middle, the 12 constellations are grouped into 3's. Da Vinci drew the Zodiac with Biblical characters.