[VS] Donquixote Family vs Rev's

[Punk Hazard]

I would ignore Riker at this point. He's trolling. Iva is one of the top commanders in the Rev army and hes saying hes not strong... I loled. He also thinks Kumas durability is shit, as one of the top commanders in the Rev army. The lol-fest with this guy is too much.

lol you are doing exactly what I was doing earlier using logic not a 100% confirmed feat, you are just doing 1+1 = 2 when it comes to Mihawk but not doing that when it comes to Ivankov. Now how does it feel if I replied with...

nope no feats = no evidence.

And So it makes sense to you that one of the M3's teachers, cannot damage a Pacifista in multiple attacks? All the evidence points towards Ivankov easily damaging a Pacifista using any sort of logic, but like I said you need to learn how to concede sometimes.

1.Luffy gets Rayleigh
2.Zoro gets Mihawk
3.Sanji gets some guy who cant even damage a pacifista? one of the top dogs of the revolutionaries cant damage a Pacifista? C'mon now there is no way you believe this but are too stubborn to actually concede.




Problem with him is he never concedes in any argument...no matter what which is a bad habit.

That's not how evidence works. I have given you actual reasons as to why can assert with insurance that Mihawk has Haki. You haven't given me a single thing that does the same for Iva being able to dent a Pacifista. So far, all you have said is "Iva can break a Pacifista because I know it. It's obvious. Powerscaling says so." But you have to yet to use the manga to explain how you know so, how it's obvious, or how powerscaling dictates so. Evidence doesn't have to come in the form of feats. The only problem is, there is zero evidence than Ivankov can dent a Pacifista. Simply being a top commander in the Revs doesn't mean Iva automatically is one of the series' strongest characters. Not to mention that the Revs is a relatively new faction and organization, so there isn't a lot of competition.

Can Iva damage a Pacfista in multiple attacks? Probably, but nothing shows him being able to damage a Pacifista in one blow like the Monster Trio can. Iva hasn't shown anything impressive. Of the three teachers the M3 had, he is the single most underwhelming. Sanji credited his boost in strength to running every day for the past two years and he spent time learning to Attack Cuisine. Out of the M3, Sanji is the one whose training has been made the most clear. Ivankov said over the next two years, he would complete challenges against the Newkama and get the Attack Cuisine as a result. That has nothing to do with Ivankov's strength, and Ivankov doesn't need to be a power-house for Sanji to benefit from that type of training. Sanji's teacher was significantly weaker because Sanji's training didn't require a power-house, it required Sanji to complete numerous challenges that would result in him getting stronger.

As for your little jabs at me, I do know when to concede a point. I have done so before. You have just supplied zero evidence to warrant anyone to concede. You're going by gut feelings and hunches, saying all the evidence points to Iva being able to damage a Pacifista without providing a single of shred of this evidence. The closest thing to evidence you have given is that Iva was a teacher of one of the M3, and even that doesn't prove he can break a Pacifista.

 

[ToshiZO]

Just stop man. You are doing exactly what I said you would. Using logic when you want and turning it off when its against your argument.

Everything points at Ivankov being able to damage a Pacifista, its simple powerscaling and portrayal. Its not that hard to understand.

Let me repeat this again.

Just like you went on to say he trained Zoro he has portrayal therefore Mihawk is at this level.

I am literally using the exact same method for Ivankov vs pacifista.

Ivankov trained Sanji he has portrayal to easily deal with a Pacifista its not even arguable yet you are here arguing semantics.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Just stop man. You are doing exactly what I said you would. Using logic when you want and turning it off when its against your argument.

Everything points at Ivankov being able to damage a Pacifista, its simple powerscaling and portrayal. Its not that hard to understand.

Let me repeat this again.

Just like you went on to say he trained Zoro he has portrayal therefore Mihawk is at this level.

I am literally using the exact same method for Ivankov vs pacifista.

Ivankov trained Sanji he has portrayal to easily deal with a Pacifista its not even arguable yet you are here arguing semantics.

No, you are not. I am using specific examples from the manga to justify Mihawk using Haki. You are using "I have a hunch so Iva can do this because I say so."

What "everything?" Why are you still unable to specifically list these things? Powerscaling, okay what about the powerscaling? I can say powerscaling places Iva below a Pacifista. I can say portrayal places Iva below Luffy because Luffy could knock Magellan to his knees while Magellan toyed with Iva.

What? I said he trained Zoro in Haki, therefore he has Haki. I never used Mihawk training Zoro to place him on any level.

Once again, Sanji's training was specified as him completing various challenges against the Newkama to earn the Attack Cuisine, and running every day from them. How does Iva's strength play into that? Regardless of if Iva was a Yonko or Buggy level, the challenges would be the same difficulty, so Sanji would have gotten the same benefit. Sanji would have gotten the same benefit from running every day for 2 years regardless of Iva's strength. Another testament to the strength of their trainers being irrelevant is that Luffy fought the 500 animals on the island. Rayleigh's strength had nothing to do with that. Zoro had to fight the Humandrills every day for 2 years to get stronger. The strength of their trainers was irrelevant, meaning "Oh he taught a M3 member" is even less a viable argument. The Humandrills and animals on the island would have been the same strength regardless of Mihawk's or Rayleigh's strength, and the challenges would be the same and running would have given the same benefit regardless of strength.

 

[ToshiZO]

Smh and I was waiting for you to use the Magellan being knocked down by Luffy. I guess you forgot Luffy also had Teach coughing blood?

I have already listed plenty things portrayal wise which put Ivankov ahead of Pacifista level.....

1.Top dog from the revolutionary (if you seriously think one of the top revs will struggle with a pacifista you need help)
2.Trained Sanji one of the M3 (because yea Oda gave Luffy and Zoro top tiers while Sanji gets someone who struggles against a Pacifista?)
3.Survived Magellans poison, survived Akainu's magma with no noticeable drawbacks.

Like I said 1 + 1 dude....not that hard to do.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Smh and I was waiting for you to use the Magellan being knocked down by Luffy. I guess you forgot Luffy also had Teach coughing blood?

I have already listed plenty things portrayal wise which put Ivankov ahead of Pacifista level.....

1.Top dog from the revolutionary (if you seriously think one of the top revs will struggle with a pacifista you need help)
2.Trained Sanji one of the M3 (because yea Oda gave Luffy and Zoro top tiers while Sanji gets someone who struggles against a Pacifista?)
3.Survived Magellans poison, survived Akainu's magma

Like I said 1 + 1 dude....not that hard to do.

1. Ivankov was a top dog in the Revs because of notability. Revs are also a relatively new organization, so there isn't a lot of competition. It's not like the Marines or Pirates where there are countless notable names, so becoming a top dog in the Revs isn't as impressive because it's full of no-names.

2. And? Sanji's got stronger because of Attack Cuisine, the challenges he did to gain them, and running every day from the Newkama. How does Iva's strength impact any of that? Will Iva's strength cause the Attack Cuisine recipes be any more or less potent? Will Iva being weaker than we think mean Sanji running from the Newkama was less vigorous and he gained less from it? Would Iva being weaker than we think make the challenges against the Newkama any less hard? Oh, btw, next time you try to say Iva has to be super strong because he trained a member of the M3 and Oda wouldn't possibly make a character so extremely far away from the other teachers be a trainer of the M3, Robin ended up with Dragon. I suppose because Sanji is a M3 and Robin is below that, that reflects Iva is above Dragon.

3. So did Luffy. So did Luffy. Iva wasn't struck by Akainu like Luffy and Jinbei were btw, Ivankov passed out from the heat. Which puts him far below the likes of Marco and Vista, showing he isn't as close to the top as you think.

 

[lelerskates]

Smh and I was waiting for you to use the Magellan being knocked down by Luffy. I guess you forgot Luffy also had Teach coughing blood?

I have already listed plenty things portrayal wise which put Ivankov ahead of Pacifista level.....

1.Top dog from the revolutionary (if you seriously think one of the top revs will struggle with a pacifista you need help)
2.Trained Sanji one of the M3 (because yea Oda gave Luffy and Zoro top tiers while Sanji gets someone who struggles against a Pacifista?)
3.Survived Magellans poison, survived Akainu's magma with no noticeable drawbacks.

Like I said 1 + 1 dude....not that hard to do.

AND THE WINNER OF THIS DEBATE THAT WAS TOO LONG TO BEGIN WITH IS TOSHIZO!

Ive decided that Riker just likes to read his own posts and gets a high off of that. The fact that this all went off of topic because his insane babble is hilarious.

 

[Punk Hazard]

AND THE WINNER OF THIS DEBATE THAT WAS TOO LONG TO BEGIN WITH IS TOSHIZO!

Ive decided that Riker just likes to read his own posts and gets a high off of that. The fact that this all went off of topic because his insane babble is hilarious.

You post often for someone incapable of debating. Just keep rolling off of Toshizo vicariously to mask your own inability to counter my points. It's rich when someone calls someone else's arguments "babbling" and dismiss it, but can't even argue himself.

 

[ToshiZO]

1. Ivankov was a top dog in the Revs because of notability. Revs are also a relatively new organization, so there isn't a lot of competition. It's not like the Marines or Pirates where there are countless notable names, so becoming a top dog in the Revs isn't as impressive because it's full of no-names.

2. And? Sanji's got stronger because of Attack Cuisine, the challenges he did to gain them, and running every day from the Newkama. How does Iva's strength impact any of that? Will Iva's strength cause the Attack Cuisine recipes be any more or less potent? Will Iva being weaker than we think mean Sanji running from the Newkama was less vigorous and he gained less from it? Would Iva being weaker than we think make the challenges against the Newkama any less hard? Oh, btw, next time you try to say Iva has to be super strong because he trained a member of the M3 and Oda wouldn't possibly make a character so extremely far away from the other teachers be a trainer of the M3, Robin ended up with Dragon. I suppose because Sanji is a M3 and Robin is below that, that reflects Iva is above Dragon.

3. So did Luffy. So did Luffy. Iva wasn't struck by Akainu like Luffy and Jinbei were btw, Ivankov passed out from the heat. Which puts him far below the likes of Marco and Vista, showing he isn't as close to the top as you think.

1.Lol listen here guy, Im not saying he has to be on some next level shit....do you understand we are talking about a damn Pacifista?? This is ridiculous right now.

2.And? Luffy was fighting a bunch of animals on the island Rayleigh's strength didn't have anything to do with it.......see anyone can do this? Lol because Robin was being trained physically by Dragon right? Horrible example. Sanji directly challenged Ivankov to a fight and got fodderised yes it has a lot to do with Ivankovs strength considering he had to beat a bunch of Okama who were weaker than Ivankov to obtain the recipe....try again.

3.Lol? Ivankov was seen back up moments later in both scenarios while Jimbei couldn't even move, Vista? When did Vista get hit by Akainu please stop.......this keeps getting worse.

 

[Punk Hazard]

1.Lol listen here guy, Im not saying he has to be on some next level shit....do you understand we are talking about a damn Pacifista?? This is ridiculous right now.

2.And? Luffy was fighting a bunch of animals on the island Rayleigh's strength didn't have anything to do with it.......see anyone can do this? Lol because Robin was training under Dragon right? Horrible example. Sanji directly challenged Ivankov to a fight and got fodderised yes it has a lot to do with Ivankovs strength considering he had to beat a bunch of Okama who were weaker than Ivankov to obtain the recipe....try again.

3.Lol? Ivankov was seen back up moments later in both scenarios while Jimbei couldn't even move, Vista? When did Vista get hit by Akainu please stop.......this keep getting worse.

1. And? I can just as easily say it's ridiculous for you to assume that Magellan is above a Pacifista because he was unable to break one when he attacked PX-0.

2. That's the point. Luffy didn't get that strong because of Rayleigh's strength, Luffy got that strong because of the strength of the animals he is fighting. It's not the strength of the teacher, it's the challenge the M3 had to overcome+their expertise in tutelage. Iva, Mihawk and Ray teaching the M3 is a testament to how good they are as teachers, not strength because their strength has NOTHING to do with the growth of the M3.

You're saying that because Iva was the top dog in the Sanji's training, who is a member of the M3, he has to be worth salt. If being part of the M3 means that, then Dragon being connected to Robin's 2 years means Dragon is portrayed as less than Iva. You can't use parallels through who trained who, then ignore it when one points out Robin's training happened under Dragon's group and location. And Sanji has to beat the Newkama, but Iva's strength has nothing to do with theirs. It's not impossible for Iva to have Newkama who are weaker and stronger than him. They follow Ivankov because he switched their *** for them, not because he's stronger than every single one of them. It doesn't matter how strong Iva is, Sanji would have gotten the exact same benefit because his benefit was gained from things independent from Ivankov, which comes most prevalent in the form of Sanji running every day for 2 years.

3. Except Magellan was knocked down very quickly by Magellan. He was able to heal himself and get back up because of the hormone treatment he can create and just apply it to himself right away. Iva's portrayal in Impel Down was no better than Luffy's actually. Their fight literally lasted a couple pages and Magellan EASILY dispatched of Ivankov, who just so happened to have an ability to heal the damage that knocked him down, with no damage taken to himself. Ivankov was then down the ENTIRE time Luffy fought Magellan using the clay boxing gloves and boots and while Jinbei was trying to steal the ship. Ivankov did NOT get up immediately.

 

[ToshiZO]

1. And? I can just as easily say it's ridiculous for you to assume that Magellan is above a Pacifista because he was unable to break one when he attacked PX-0.

2. That's the point. Luffy didn't get that strong because of Rayleigh's strength, Luffy got that strong because of the strength of the animals he is fighting. It's not the strength of the teacher, it's the challenge the M3 had to overcome+their expertise in tutelage. Iva, Mihawk and Ray teaching the M3 is a testament to how good they are as teachers, not strength because their strength has NOTHING to do with the growth of the M3.

You're saying that because Iva was the top dog in the Sanji's training, who is a member of the M3, he has to be worth salt. If being part of the M3 means that, then Dragon being connected to Robin's 2 years means Dragon is portrayed as less than Iva. You can't use parallels through who trained who, then ignore it when one points out Robin's training happened under Dragon's group and location. And Sanji has to beat the Newkama, but Iva's strength has nothing to do with theirs. It's not impossible for Iva to have Newkama who are weaker and stronger than him. They follow Ivankov because he switched their *** for them, not because he's stronger than every single one of them. It doesn't matter how strong Iva is, Sanji would have gotten the exact same benefit because his benefit was gained from things independent from Ivankov, which comes most prevalent in the form of Sanji running every day for 2 years.

3. Except Magellan was knocked down very quickly by Magellan. He was able to heal himself and get back up because of the hormone treatment he can create and just apply it to himself right away. Iva's portrayal in Impel Down was no better than Luffy's actually. Their fight literally lasted a couple pages and Magellan EASILY dispatched of Ivankov, who just so happened to have an ability to heal the damage that knocked him down, with no damage taken to himself. Ivankov was then down the ENTIRE time Luffy fought Magellan using the clay boxing gloves and boots and while Jinbei was trying to steal the ship. Ivankov did NOT get up immediately.

alright I'm done here. "Its possible this....its possible that", that's all I'm getting from you at this point. Once again not using logic but playing the devils advocate to my points.

Lot of things I can say for all 3 of these points to counter but once again Im gonna get the same stubborn reply from you finding anything to use against them despite it being completely illogical.

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

that's not how evidence works. I have given you actual reasons as to why can assert with insurance that mihawk has haki. You haven't given me a single thing that does the same for iva being able to dent a pacifista. So far, all you have said is "iva can break a pacifista because i know it. It's obvious. Powerscaling says so." but you have to yet to use the manga to explain how you know so, how it's obvious, or how powerscaling dictates so. Evidence doesn't have to come in the form of feats. The only problem is, there is zero evidence than ivankov can dent a pacifista. Simply being a top commander in the revs doesn't mean iva automatically is one of the series' strongest characters. Not to mention that the revs is a relatively new faction and organization, so there isn't a lot of competition.

Can iva damage a pacfista in multiple attacks? Probably, but nothing shows him being able to damage a pacifista in one blow like the monster trio can. Iva hasn't shown anything impressive. Of the three teachers the m3 had, he is the single most underwhelming. Sanji credited his boost in strength to running every day for the past two years and he spent time learning to attack cuisine. Out of the m3, sanji is the one whose training has been made the most clear. Ivankov said over the next two years, he would complete challenges against the newkama and get the attack cuisine as a result. That has nothing to do with ivankov's strength, and ivankov doesn't need to be a power-house for sanji to benefit from that type of training. Sanji's teacher was significantly weaker because sanji's training didn't require a power-house, it required sanji to complete numerous challenges that would result in him getting stronger.

As for your little jabs at me, i do know when to concede a point. I have done so before. You have just supplied zero evidence to warrant anyone to concede. You're going by gut feelings and hunches, saying all the evidence points to iva being able to damage a pacifista without providing a single of shred of this evidence. The closest thing to evidence you have given is that iva was a teacher of one of the m3, and even that doesn't prove he can break a pacifista.

I have your point, Mihawk have haki, but not strong enough to dent a Pacifista, because he never shown he can.

 

[MickNerks]

2. You're saying that because Iva was the top dog in the Sanji's training, who is a member of the M3, he has to be worth salt. If being part of the M3 means that, then Dragon being connected to Robin's 2 years means Dragon is portrayed as less than Iva. You can't use parallels through who trained who, then ignore it when one points out Robin's training happened under Dragon's group and location. And Sanji has to beat the Newkama, but Iva's strength has nothing to do with theirs. It's not impossible for Iva to have Newkama who are weaker and stronger than him. They follow Ivankov because he switched their *** for them, not because he's stronger than every single one of them. It doesn't matter how strong Iva is, Sanji would have gotten the exact same benefit because his benefit was gained from things independent from Ivankov, which comes most prevalent in the form of Sanji running every day for 2 years.

In regards to your bold, I think is a stretch to say Ivankov isnt the strongest Okama on his Island especially with him being known as the King and Queen of the island. Thats like saying Boa Hancock isnt the strongest of her island, or Mihawk possibly being weaker than one of the baboons of his island. It just wouldnt make much since.

In regards to Ivankov not being able to damage a pacifist, I think that was also demonstrated to not be the case. Originally Ivankov easily defeated sanji with no effort at all. Sanji took on the challenge that Ivankov gave him which was to defeat all the Okama Masters and obtain the recipes, it wouldnt make since for Ivankov to give sanji a challenge that he himself couldnt complete. That would be like Mihawk saying defeat all the baboons w/ haki, yet Mihawk himself couldnt defeat them with haki. Or Rayleigh telling Luffy to use train against the Beast using all levels of haki, yet rayleigh himself couldnt use the basics. You yourself even admitted that it wouldnt make since for Mihawk to not have Haki, since that was the challenge and skill he assigned to zoro. So I hope that disspoves the possibility of there being a random Okama who is stronger than the King/Queen of the Okamas.

Secondly, when Sanji confronted a pacifist for the first time post time skip, he easily snapped its neck after the training that Ivankov assigned him. Part of that training was to gain and strengthen his body with the attack cuisine, which made his body stronger and more powerful. Ivankov himself has unlimited access to such cuisine, and it would seem obvious that he has also strengthend his body with it as well. Now if sanji, who was originally extremely weaker than Ivankov, could snap a pacifist neck after 2 years it would only be logical that Ivankov who had unlimited access to these body building recipes (Attack Cuisine) for those 2 years would also have consumed them and acquired a stronger body then even what we saw at Marineford. Now by also including the fact that she could DOUBLE OR EVEN TRIPLE her strength thanks to the power of his DF, it is only logical that if sanji could solo a pacifist with no difficulty, she could also do the same as she originally was stronger and was able to increase her strength for the last 2 year just as much as sanji thanks to attack cuisines and DF hormones.

So i hope we can also put this whole Ivankov cant damage a pacifist discussion to rest also, because it only makes since seeing how she started off stronger and also increased her strength over the past 2 years, that if sanji could do it Ivankov could as well.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Not gonna reply because you keep responding to every argument like people are supposed to do in a debate and what I am also doing, but only I'm allowed to do it so it's annoying when you do it.

Gotcha

I have your point, Mihawk have haki, but not strong enough to dent a Pacifista, because he never shown he can.

Except powerscaling clearly shows Mihawk can, as the manga explicitly puts him above the Monster Trio. Where is the evidence, implication or explicit scan that shows Ivankov can dent a Pacifista? I'm not asking only for a scan where the picture is Iva denting a Pacifista, I'm asking for a scan that shows Iva denting someone stronger than a Pacifista, or a scan where the dialogue implies Iva can dent a Pacifista. There isn't any. If you wanna go by powerscaling like Toshi tried to do, Iva isn't that much higher than Luffy, seeing as Magellan easily defeated him and had down the entire time Luffy and the others fought off Magellan using clay and Jinbei went to steal a both. When I get home later, I'll post all the scans showing how long Ivankov was down by Magellan.

Like I said, all I'm asking for is clear-cut evidence from the manga that shows Iva can dent a Pacifista, which no one has provided.

In regards to your bold, I think is a stretch to say Ivankov isnt the strongest Okama on his Island especially with him being known as the King and Queen of the island. Thats like saying Boa Hancock isnt the strongest of her island, or Mihawk possibly being weaker than one of the baboons of his island. It just wouldnt make much since.

In regards to Ivankov not being able to damage a pacifist, I think that was also demonstrated to not be the case. Originally Ivankov easily defeated sanji with no effort at all. Sanji took on the challenge that Ivankov gave him which was to defeat all the Okama Masters and obtain the recipes, it wouldnt make since for Ivankov to give sanji a challenge that he himself couldnt complete. That would be like Mihawk saying defeat all the baboons w/ haki, yet Mihawk himself couldnt defeat them with haki. Or Rayleigh telling Luffy to use train against the Beast using all levels of haki, yet rayleigh himself couldnt use the basics. You yourself even admitted that it wouldnt make since for Mihawk to not have Haki, since that was the challenge and skill he assigned to zoro. So I hope that disspoves the possibility of there being a random Okama who is stronger than the King/Queen of the Okamas.

Secondly, when Sanji confronted a pacifist for the first time post time skip, he easily snapped its neck after the training that Ivankov assigned him. Part of that training was to gain and strengthen his body with the attack cuisine, which made his body stronger and more powerful. Ivankov himself has unlimited access to such cuisine, and it would seem obvious that he has also strengthend his body with it as well. Now if sanji, who was originally extremely weaker than Ivankov, could snap a pacifist neck after 2 years it would only be logical that Ivankov who had unlimited access to these body building recipes (Attack Cuisine) for those 2 years would also have consumed them and acquired a stronger body then even what we saw at Marineford. Now by also including the fact that she could DOUBLE OR EVEN TRIPLE her strength thanks to the power of his DF, it is only logical that if sanji could solo a pacifist with no difficulty, she could also do the same as she originally was stronger and was able to increase her strength for the last 2 year just as much as sanji thanks to attack cuisines and DF hormones.

So i hope we can also put this whole Ivankov cant damage a pacifist discussion to rest also, because it only makes since seeing how she started off stronger and also increased her strength over the past 2 years, that if sanji could do it Ivankov could as well.

That's not really the same. In order for Mihawk and Rayleigh to teach Zoro and Luffy Haki in order to take down the Humandrills and the Beasts, they don't need to be strong enough to take down the Humandrills and Beasts, they need to be possess Haki and know enough about it to teach it to someone else. Zoro and Luffy defeating their respective animal groups depend solely on how strong they make their Haki once their teachers have taught it to them. Mihawk and Rayleigh could be 100x weaker, and the result of the training would be the same because it's Luffy and Zoro who have to beat the animals, not them. So long as they remain able to teach them Haki, which would require them to possess it and know enough about it. Their strength is irrelevant to the growth of the Monster Trio.

Don't get me wrong, I know Ivankov being the strongest Okama there is the most likely scenario by far, but it isn't impossible there were Okama stronger than him who served under him because of what his powers did for them, out of gratitude. While Iva being the strongest Okama there would mean Sanji would be fighting people lesser than him, are you saying it's impossible that Sanji surpassed Ivankov? Yes, Iva has unlimited access to the cuisine, but Sanji's strength didn't just come from the cuisine, he credited himself getting stronger due to running every day all day for 2 years, that was the major impact on Sanji's strength, the challenges were just another thing he did. Iva's strength doesn't impact how hard it was for Sanji to run everyday, so it doesn't impact the major reason why Sanji got stronger. Replace Ivankov with Don Sai or Kanjuro. Would beating the Okama there be any easier? Would Sanji's running all day from the Okama be any less taxing on his body?

 

[MickNerks]

That's not really the same. In order for Mihawk and Rayleigh to teach Zoro and Luffy Haki in order to take down the Humandrills and the Beasts, they don't need to be strong enough to take down the Humandrills and Beasts, they need to be possess Haki and know enough about it to teach it to someone else. Zoro and Luffy defeating their respective animal groups depend solely on how strong they make their Haki once their teachers have taught it to them. Mihawk and Rayleigh could be 100x weaker, and the result of the training would be the same because it's Luffy and Zoro who have to beat the animals, not them. So long as they remain able to teach them Haki, which would require them to possess it and know enough about it. Their strength is irrelevant to the growth of the Monster Trio.

Are you willing to admit that Mihawk and Rayleigh are weaker that the Humandrills and Beast, due to the lack of evidence to support they are stronger?

Don't get me wrong, I know Ivankov being the strongest Okama there is the most likely scenario by far, but it isn't impossible there were Okama stronger than him who served under him because of what his powers did for them, out of gratitude. While Iva being the strongest Okama there would mean Sanji would be fighting people lesser than him, are you saying it's impossible that Sanji surpassed Ivankov? Yes, Iva has unlimited access to the cuisine, but Sanji's strength didn't just come from the cuisine, he credited himself getting stronger due to running every day all day for 2 years, that was the major impact on Sanji's strength, the challenges were just another thing he did. Iva's strength doesn't impact how hard it was for Sanji to run everyday, so it doesn't impact the major reason why Sanji got stronger. Replace Ivankov with Don Sai or Kanjuro. Would beating the Okama there be any easier? Would Sanji's running all day from the Okama be any less taxing on his body?

I wasn't trying to state that Ivankov trained sanji.

In the beginning it was clear that Ivankov was far stronger than sanji. In 2 years time even if sanji caught up to the level Ivankov was on when he first meet him, Ivankov himself had also been getting strong over the last 2 years. So basically the line of progression would look like this:

Pre-Time Skip
Sanji: ------>|
Ivan: ---------------------------->|


Post-Time Skip (Even if I model the possibility that Sanji is stronger now)
Sanji: -------------------------------------\-------------------->|
Ivan: ----------------------------------------------->|--------->


Invakov would have also gotten stronger over the past 2 years due to missions and the power of the attack cuisine. After the time skip Sanji easily with no difficulty broke a pacifist neck, and he was no where near his peak strength ( Strength of kick represented by the red slash /). Pre-time skip Ivankov could push a pacifist around like a play thing (vs kuma) according to Marineford, which is why I ended his pre-timeskip line a tad behind where Sanji broke the pacifist neck post timeskip (/). If we look at the progression line, Ivankov is still reasonably above that level if he also increased his strength over the pass 2 years. And if Ivankov used his DF to increase his strength more Via Hormones his strength would increase again (Represented by the Red Line ----->).

I was not trying to use sanji's training as a way to make Ivankov seem stronger, I was using the fact that Ivankov started stronger and also was exposed to the strengthening and building of his body via Attack Cuisine. Hopefully you can understand my point by the progression lines I created.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Are you willing to admit that Mihawk and Rayleigh are weaker that the Humandrills and Beast, due to the lack of evidence to support they are stronger?

Except Zoro and Luffy beat them and are weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, so this argument doesn't work.

I wasn't trying to state that Ivankov trained sanji.

In the beginning it was clear that Ivankov was far stronger than sanji. In 2 years time even if sanji caught up to the level Ivankov was on when he first meet him, Ivankov himself had also been getting strong over the last 2 years. So basically the line of progression would look like this:

Pre-Time Skip
Sanji: ------>|
Ivan: ---------------------------->|


Post-Time Skip (Even if I model the possibility that Sanji is stronger now)
Sanji: -------------------------------------\-------------------->|
Ivan: ----------------------------------------------->|--------->


Invakov would have also gotten stronger over the past 2 years due to missions and the power of the attack cuisine. After the time skip Sanji easily with no difficulty broke a pacifist neck, and he was no where near his peak strength ( Strength of kick represented by the red slash /). Pre-time skip Ivankov could push a pacifist around like a play thing (vs kuma) according to Marineford, which is why I ended his pre-timeskip line a tad behind where Sanji broke the pacifist neck post timeskip (/). If we look at the progression line, Ivankov is still reasonably above that level if he also increased his strength over the pass 2 years. And if Ivankov used his DF to increase his strength more Via Hormones his strength would increase again (Represented by the Red Line ----->).

I was not trying to use sanji's training as a way to make Ivankov seem stronger, I was using the fact that Ivankov started stronger and also was exposed to the strengthening and building of his body via Attack Cuisine. Hopefully you can understand my point by the progression lines I created.

Pre-skip, Franky and Chopper could knock a Pacifista back as well, so Iva knocking down PX-0 isn't as impressive as you think. Actually damaging a Pacifista is what I'm looking for.

That progression line is one you completely made up. I can just easily make one that goes with red being what's needed to break a Pacifista like Sanji did.

Pre-Skip Sanji: (-------------
Pre-skip Iva----------------------

Post-skip Sanji: (----------------------------------
Post-skip Iva: (------------------------

I can just rehash what you say with "As you can see from this progression line, Iva isn't as strong as Sanji or reaches the level to break a Pacifista.

 

[MickNerks]

Except Zoro and Luffy beat them and are weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, so this argument doesn't work.





Pre-skip, Franky and Chopper could knock a Pacifista back as well, so Iva knocking down PX-0 isn't as impressive as you think. Actually damaging a Pacifista is what I'm looking for.

That progression line is one you completely made up. I can just easily make one that goes with red being what's needed to break a Pacifista like Sanji did.

Pre-Skip Sanji: (-------------
Pre-skip Iva----------------------

Post-skip Sanji: (----------------------------------
Post-skip Iva: (------------------------

I can just rehash what you say with "As you can see from this progression line, Iva isn't as strong as Sanji or reaches the level to break a Pacifista.

Im aware the line was made up, I only created it to show how both characters progressed after 2 year, which you completely ignored. The whole point was to show that just as Sanji grew stronger over 2 years, so did Ivankov. And since originally Ivankov was far stronger than sanji, its fair to assume that both characters over the timeskip gained the power to overwhelm a pacifist.
The reasoning is based off the fact that Sanji K.O'd a Pacifist with no difficulty, and I might add that he did it with the same technique that Ivankov mocked pre timeskip. If both charcter's became stronger over 2 years and previously Ivankov demonstrated the ability to easily toss a pacifist around, then it should easily be concluded that Ivankov with her 2 years of training (Strengthening his body) also could destroy a pacifist.

What you are arguing is that opposite of what you just posted: "Except Zoro and Luffy beat them and are weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, so this argument doesn't work."

It is a known fact that Sanji was also weaker than Ivankov, so if Luffy and Zoro remain weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, then surely Sanji has not surpassed Ivankov, especially when Ivankov hearself (unlike Mihawk and Rayleigh) became stronger over the 2 years as well.

SN: Neither franky nor Chopper were shown to knock a pacifist off its feet multiple times, or even once for that matter.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Im aware the line was made up, I only created it to show how both characters progressed after 2 year, which you completely ignored. The whole point was to show that just as Sanji grew stronger over 2 years, so did Ivankov. And since originally Ivankov was far stronger than sanji, its fair to assume that both characters over the timeskip gained the power to overwhelm a pacifist.

I didn't ignore the line or what it represented, I just provided my own line that shows how Sanji and Iva got stronger but Sanji being stronger and Iva not reaching the strength needed to break a Pacifista. The problem here is that neither are examples of concrete evidence, they are both speculation. The line shows what could be, not what is, so it doesn't disprove anything in my post and is no better than the evidence-less assumptions Toshi made.

The reasoning is based off the fact that Sanji K.O'd a Pacifist with no difficulty, and I might add that he did it with the same technique that Ivankov mocked pre timeskip. If both charcter's became stronger over 2 years and previously Ivankov demonstrated the ability to easily toss a pacifist around, then it should easily be concluded that Ivankov with her 2 years of training (Strengthening his body) also could destroy a pacifist.

Arlong gave Luffy trouble pre-skip when they fought. Does that mean that if Arlong has trained and gotten stronger between then and now, he too can give Doflamingo the trouble Luffy did? Simply because Iva was stronger than Sanji pre-skip doesn't mean he is stronger now or had the same rate of growth.

What you are arguing is that opposite of what you just posted: "Except Zoro and Luffy beat them and are weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, so this argument doesn't work."

It is a known fact that Sanji was also weaker than Ivankov, so if Luffy and Zoro remain weaker than Rayleigh and Mihawk, then surely Sanji has not surpassed Ivankov, especially when Ivankov hearself (unlike Mihawk and Rayleigh) became stronger over the 2 years as well.

It is a known fact that Sanji was weaker than Ivankov pre-skip. It is not a known fact that he is currently weaker than Ivankov. Luffy and Zoro are weaker than Ray and Mihawk is a known fact because the latter two are top tiers, while the former are not. Ivankov has not demonstrated the feats nor the hype of being a top-tier, so the same argument cannot be applied for him and Sanji.

SN: Neither franky nor Chopper were shown to knock a pacifist off its feet multiple times, or even once for that matter.

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