Minato and Itachi (KidGamer65) vs. Nagato (Zexion~)

[KidGamer65]

Don't make the situation bigger than it really is. The debate is still a debate and said debate will still continue uninterrupted.

 

[Xlad]

Don't make the situation bigger than it really is. The debate is still a debate and said debate will still continue uninterrupted.

Not going to anyway. Pretty much why I said no more of this.

 

[Zexion~]

Real Turn-Up Time.

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Spoiler

-Forgetting that a village wide crater speaks literally nothing about it's height.
-Forgetting that they start near the center where Pain and Naruto started, meaning he only has to cross half the village.
-Forgetting that he doesn't need to throw it across half the village when he can just cross that distance and then throw it above the crater.
-Forgetting that Nagato can't stop him, something already stated.
-Forgetting that Nagato can only end the toads with Shinra Tensei if they are in range for Shinra Tensei.
-Forgetting Minato has a tag ON HIS FACE ON THE HOKAGE MOUNTAIN.
-Forgetting that even if the bold mattered, Ninja can run on walls.

Since you're using the tag all this is really moot.

Please drop this part of the argument because it will only lead to you sound sillier than you already do.

Only thing silly is you assuming Nagato would let Minato blitz towards the outside of the crater without doing anything. But alas you've taken the cowards way out so Minato doesn't need to reach the outside anymore (although the fact that you were arguing this leads me to believe you weren't planning on using the Hokage tag)




Nope. Didn't say that. Read again before you reply.

And I suggest you re-read the Manga and the Databook. Most of it's power is focused in one direction, thus unless that power hits the Kunai, he doesn't deflect them, ever. The water was barely pushed back from his position. The water moving is probably due to nothing but his movement anyway just like

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Which makes far more sense than saying Fuuton Reppushou blows all around Nagato's body when Manga shows the brunt of the power hitting the Shuriken Konan made, and when Databook states that it is a directional attack.

The water you're suggesting was moved by Yahiko's movement is clearly just his suiton which he's still using. There really isn't any water moving around Konan so this was a terrible point.

Directional attack means nothing about what it encompasses or where it starts, it does go in one direction but it can start and encompass whatever it wants.

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-With basic reading skills you can see the force boundries are around and larger than Nagato himself.
-The water is clearly being divided and pushed two different ways by something.

Hell, even if I agreed and said that the wind blew all around his body, based on the water's movement the force of the wind from every other angle besides the front (or wherever Nagato chooses to aim it) is pathetic due to it's real power coming from the user focusing it into a single direction, thus the Kunai are barely pushed away, letting Minato teleport close enough to Nagato to follow up with an attack or a Kunai toss.

Not sure why you are going on about the "perfect stance" when I never said he needs the perfect stance. I said that due to it being a directional attack, he can't cover every single angle of his body while Minato and Itachi can with their Kunai tosses.

Will adress both together.

You've clearly contradicted yourself you stated thta you agree that the wind blew around his body fully (and i've shown this) but now you're stating that he can't.....

He has three angles to use the jutsu at going by canon depiction of the amoutn of arms he can spawn. Now if all three of them encompass his whole body what happens if he simply uses all of them at once? No reason he can't simply form and distribute the chakra into each section of his body. No kunai would be able to reach him as every angle would be covered.

Also I don't see why you're thinking Minato is going to be able to be reaching the backs and sides of Nagato when it has to travel past his front first, if you're using Itachi to up your versatility with the kunai again...they both have to start in front of Nagato and get blasted by the fuuton before either get the chance to be redirected around or behind him.



Asura Path lets Nagato summon 6 mechanical arms as shown in canon.

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Your strategy fails for the simple fact that he can only make hand signs with the arms in front and the arms in the back as the arms on the sides are too far away from each other to make

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Thus he can only get Kunai from the back, and the front, not the sides. Crippling the fuuton strategy on it's own. Same goes for the Suiton considering he still can't make more than two hand signs due to the positioning of his arms.

:lol you're really grasping man. As I said nothing is even reaching his sides or his back in the first place but i'll entertain your foolish notion as its the last post.

Why are you assuming that the front arms couldn't form handsigns with the ones on the side? Or better yet the back ones forming them with the sides, its physically possible and works as if he blocks it off from the sides (or the front even as I stated) he has no need to block from the back. Every Kunai angle is literally accounted for.

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Even though the only one that needs to be acounted for is the front.

This is all ESPECIALLY viable due to the fact that his arms can even extend.

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So he can form the handseals wherever honestly.

Though I'm expecting fanfiction as a counter. If you think Nagato can:

-Form arms on any part of his body.
-Form as many arms as he wants.

Then I'd love to see the scans or any form of proof.

Ill stick that he can form with 6.

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Can clearly see the arm is pertruding from his neck, not his shoulderblades as it was in Asura. Hence he can spwan the arms wherver he wants :lol.

Not even sure how this is a counter.

1. Konan was doing a combination attack with him, why in the world would she throw her Kunai faster than he can use his jutsu?
2. Stopped taking this part seriously when you compared the strength of a young girl to the strength of two grown men.
3. The sfx is "flying fast" because Nagato used his Fuuton to propel them.

She's not going to through them slow enough for Jiraiya to not be struck by it at all.

:lol @ the girl thing when the best Shurikan user in the manga is what? A 16 year old girl.

Anyways Itachi's kunai were deflected at a much closer range but a snake that wasn't even spawned before it

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Meanwhile Nagato's reacted to

-FRS
-Jiraiyas Senbon (his quickest attack)

The latter in a closer distance then either of these two will achieve. He can use the fuuton in time without any room for doubt.

Me saying that they can throw Kunai at a faster rate than Nagato can repel them literally has nothing to do with konan throwing her shuriken faster than the wind can travel, if that was what you are trying to counter. :lol

You saying that Nagato couldn't react to a kunai when they've never caught anyone in the manga is ridiculous in its own right.


Then Itachi and Minato just need a different approach to getting a marking near him. Though as explained above this strategy fails regardless.

1. If Itachi rushes Nagato holding Kunai, with himself marked as well Nagato is forced to counter with either Shinra Tensei or Preta Path. If he counters with a normal Shinra Tensei then it gets reflected and Nagato falls on his ass, then Minato teleports to him via Itachi and takes him out with a Kunai. If he uses Preta Path Nagato gets killed in the same way, by a teleportation blitz from Minato. If he tries to use the large Shinra Tensei, then the CST counter that has been listed goes into effect.

Lmfao he absorbs Susano'o then ST's them both :lol as its already debatble if he can react to a directly FTG blitz with a kunai thrown at him, add in the distance between Itachi and Nagato if he's using a V4 Susano'o and the fact that Nagato can absorb Susano'o with an extended Asura arm using preta path (explained above) and he can react with ST :lol If they try to throw Kunai while they're being blown backwards the fuuton/suiton repel them both.

2. As for your "Fuuton strategy" Minato and Itachi can throw Kunai at Nagato with a short enough interval in between them so that Nagato ends up using Fuuton to repel one wave, only for the next wave to hit him before Nagato can use a second Fuuton.

.-. Fuuton would reach them both forcing them to move.....Then he's got Asura's missiles and Summoning if he wants to move them otherwise. Worst case scenario he uses fuuton during ST's cooldown time and ST during Fuutons "cooldown" which is less then 5 seconds. But as I said he's not just going to allow them to sit there and throw projectiles at him.

3. When Minato throws a Kunai and Nagato tries to use Fuuton as a counter, Itachi just uses Amaterasu on the Fuuton, causing it to become pure flame allowing Minato's Kunai to pass right through and either hit Nagato (who will also be blinded by the sudden burst of flame, at least visually which is all he can use to perceive the Kunai) or land right near him allowing Minato to finish him with a blitz. And Sharingan sees chakra thus seeing the Fuuton isn't going to be problem in case you were thinking of making that argument.

Uh, why would it being on fire negate the force exactly? Amertarasu has no force to it as its spawned directly, if anything you've just launched black flame at Minato and his kunai. Not to mention that's a bit sketchy as its not like Itachi's going to be able to use it INSTANTLY when the fuuton is used, so its not stopping the kunai from being deflected.

Same thing actually happened with Naruto and Sasuke

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Obviously the fuuton isn't a COFRS, but it wasn't burned away instantly and Naruto states that the "fire" is still making the wind stronger.

Rinnegan can see chakra, and yes even the seals.

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He sensed a barrier that was also a psuedo chakra...thing. As proven when he didn't just absorb it with Preta, similar to how seals can't be absorbed.

He also will have summons left around, especially the bird in the air so his sight isn't being very hindered.

So? It's not like it being stronger is going to change the issues with the strategy.

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What you should have done to those strategies.

Didn't say it was.

Kinda did in your posts after but no matter.

Except that's irrelevant here since Nagato is a living human being with vital organs that actually work. Asura Path is a dead body with a bunch of mechanical features. Nagato can have those features, but that doesn't put him in the same category due to actually being alive with organs. Thus he's obviously not going to survive with over half his body obliterated.

Pretty sure the asura path's summonings replace the organs, as seen when he's casually

-Opening his arm
-Bursting things from his neck

So he can take damage that would normally kill a human and still be able to heal.

Thus it living is irrelevant. Durability is the important thing for Nagato. And you keep going on about Naraka, but he has to summon the God of Hell and then enter it's body if he wants to heal, but regardless, you can't heal when you are dead.

Actually, it can pull you in on its own

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So if Nagato for some reason can't enter himself it could quickly drag him in and heal him regardless, debatable if he could still do it upon Nagato's death as well.

I know. :lol That's why I stated that the neck is the thinnest part besides the arms and the easiest to pierce into. No part of his neck survived Raikiri nor can you take a single part of it and say "lol it survived Raikiri so no Kunai pierces it" when it had to go through his torso first, and there was the fact that Deva Path repelled them both.

What? I don't care if it didn't tank Raikiri. I'm saying that the enhanced durability is present in his neck area as well so just saying a kunai slash to the neck will kill Nagato is extremely arguable, and since you've used it as your main fatalaty you really only have one option left and thats Rasengan.

Sure, he can camp with the Preta barrier on, but then Minato either:

-Uses a Kunai.
-Tags him instead of attacking him, allowing him to teleport to him whenever he pleases. Basically meaning GG.

Kunai is sort of useless as I stated.

Uh what? He has no way of knowing when Preta is being used and after the Rasengan is absorbed gets hit with ST as the cooldown wouldn't even be in effect as he has so many other ways to counter an FGT blitz.

But as I've said a million times no kunai is getting past Nagato's countermeasures for it for this to ever happen anyways.

So even if Minato's first Kunai strike fails, he can come back with the second Kunai strike and finish it after marking the dude.

Nah man.

Terrible logic. SM Rasengan obliterated him. How does getting obliterated by SM Rasengan mean that Rasengan won't kill him? :lol

SM enhances jutsu...... Easiest example is the transition from RS to FRS :lol.

Obito took Rasengan, thus that is his feat. Period. Stop handing over other people's feats to Nagato when you have literally zero reason to do so or evidence that'd allow you to draw said comparison. Especially when the nature of Obito's body is completely different to Nagato's. What's next? You're going to argue that Nagato can live after having his heart run through by

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Because "lol Obito did it"? Obito's feat, not Nagato's. Obito's anatomy cannot be compared to Nagato's in any way, shape or form. This is just like when you tried to claim that Human Path survives Tsunade's attack because Shin survived Sakura's. :lol Stop it. Not to mention he still lost an arm due to Rasengan and we don't even know how much damage he took internally or externally due to his cloak being on.

Shin the character with no reasoning for having a different body structure? But yeah i'll agree that his insides aren't as vulnerable to Rasengan due to zetsu interference.

However I don't see any kunai getting through what I've stated here anyways.

Then there's the fact that Minato's Rasengan is as large as Naruto's Oodama Rasengan. Even if I were to agree to Nagato surviving it despite you providing no real evidence for that claim, Minato would just mark him like he did to Obito once the Rasengan hits him in the back or whereever and kill him with a second blitz.

Instead of arguing Nagato tanks it and then Minato marks him, I'll be arguing Nagato absorbs it and then Minato marks him (this is WORST CASE) as I've given more than enough to show no FTG blitz is happening, just really want the judges to understand that.




IF Nagato is Tagged

Now, judges this is up to you to interpret or not as it's a "just in case" option. While its true Nagato can't absorb the seal itself, as seals being unable to be absorbed is the commom consensus, could he not absorb the chakra straight out of the seal with Preta? Rendering it useless?

Spoiler

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DB states that chakra absorbed is disperesed meaning its destroyed so Minato couldn't constantly FTG to Nagato if that is what you're thinking.

If you don't think that would work there is another alternative to Preta. That is the Gedo, KG was right in saying he can't use it to launch an all out attack against the two, or summon it fully, but he's already shown that he can summon it relatively without any backlash

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with full intel he could summon it at the start and since its already shown to be a jutsu that bypasses much more powerful seals than the FTG one, it should negate them through Logic. I'm questioning why he wasn't injured when using it to seal the Biju as it basically did the same thing

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However it should be able to negate FTG seals, hell might even be able to negate the ones on the Kunai as well, however on a lesser and quicker scale getting rid of the seals most threatning to him would do.

Even if i'm wrong like I said its merely a just in case scenario and I can rely whole heartidly on simply no Kunai being able to get through to Nagato.

So you are actually suggesting that Nagato shoots

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as a concentrated blast at every single Kunai and marking Minato has? Which will be spread throughout the area? :lol And that's even assuming that he can concentrate it since you are just assuming he can based on nothing but the amount of targets it has, which is nothing but a ridiculous assertion. Since when did attacks change based on the amount of targets? :lol If they change, it's because the technique has that property all on it's own.

.-. Nagato's techniques themselves are stronger than with the paths anyways, due to more chakra and stamina. So even if its not concentrated it should be able to take out a few Kunai, in one blast.

And it being a chakra blast doesn't change anything.

Chakra > Natural Explosions .-.

Hiraishin has a radius (already posted a scan), Itachi is marked and Susanoo in it's V3 stage isn't even that large. :lol Moving around the Susanoo doesn't stop Minato from warping to him, and once again, unless you are implying that Preta Path can absorb Susanoo faster than Minato can react, "it will be absorbed quickly" is an irrelevant point to make.

I really don't need to counter this, as Nagato has no need to voluntarily go and absorb Susano'o, althought you mostly have YM up which would be V4 Susano'o no?

Also don't recall you posting a scan of the range but regardless this point isn't needed.

Why in the world would he have to use Shunshin when he can teleport to Nagato? Who is right in front of Itachi? :lol Jesus.

-This is how large Susanoo is. [

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]

Hiraishin has a radius. As shown in my last post. If Nagato is absorbing Susanoo he is practically less than a meter away from Itachi, thus the tag on Itachi's body, thus Minato would teleport right to his general location and cut him down. Unless you can prove Nagato can somehow react to Hiraishin blitzes, there is no counter for this strategy.

Its more than a Meter, and if he moves around to the side where Itachi isn't tagged Minato would have to then turn around and try to blitz which takes more time, worst case scenario he ST's them both away since this is only "V3" Susano'o even it was V4 it would have been absorbed.

But again, this is pointless Nagato doesn't need to attack Itachi.

Yes guys. Because reacting to FRS lets him react to a blitz from Minato which is so many more times faster than this point is even ridiculous to bring up in the first place. It's also hilarious how you attempt to compare him to the Raikage when Raikage not only reacted to FRS, but he effortlessly evaded it twice in a row despite the sun blinding him the first time, and it being a surprise/back attack the second time. Nagato has no reaction feat on that level.

I guess taking down two clones trying to hold you DOESN'T make it a little harder to avoid :lol

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And reacting to Jiraiya and B only shows me that you are grasping at straws now.

1. B was in Base, and he was in FREE FALL. How does reacting to a FREE FALLING guy translate to a reaction feat worth mentioning? :lol

Seeing as he was also able to react to 6T Bee and absorb his chakra quicker than Kisame could

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Its quicker because as we can see Kisame was thrown instantly

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despite Samehada still absorbing chakra

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. Which means that if Nagato was ever hit by hit he should have still been moved back, unless he absorbed it before the V2 force was applied, making it an easily tankable base lariat, which means he could activate Preta pretty damn quick. Especially since its commonly known that V2 Bee is > Biju Bee in speed.

2. SM Jiraiya isn't anywhere near the top when it comes to speed. He's not even on par with V1 Ay in that category let alone fast enough for us to start talking about reacting to him being a feat that lets Nagato react to Minato.

Arguable, but alright.

The rest is an irrelevant repeat of what I've already countered in this debate and literally every single time you try to argue it. You keep talking about Shinra Tensei's activation speed when it's activation speed is irrelevant if Nagato can't react, and you can't prove that he can react. Period. It's really that simple. Near instant ST activation=/=Near instant reactions.

Except I've just proven that he can activate a technique faster than a V2 Biju can blitz, and if a Slower attack with the same person was able to intercept the blitz i'm relating the feats too Nagato should be able to react MENTALLY fine.

Once again, if I used your logic, I'd be saying that Minato should easily react to Juubito with Hiraishin because:

-Lol Hiraishin is instant.
-Lol Juubito's attack isn't.
-Lol Minato reacts.

That's not what i've said at all.

-Nagato's shown to be able to activate it within a second, posted the scan in the first part, the moment he got his powers back he used the jutsu.

-Again activated preta path to intercept a KCM Naruto strike which logically should be above a kunai slash or a rasengan from Minato, as well as a V2 Bee which again a slower techinque by the same user was intercepting Minato's attacks you claim will flat out blitz Nagato.

But Minato didn't react. He got cut before he could teleport. Reaction speed is the most important thing here, not the speed of his jutsu.

What? Could Bee react to Nagato's catching of his free-fall with that technique? No he didn't, despite the fact that it would have been helpful. Unless Bee started launching it before Minato even teleported which makes no sense, so really it had everything to do with Minato being too slow, and his FTG blitz not being as fast as you thought.

Nagato's reacted to a V2 blitz from the same person which is > The jutsu used by Bee to stop his FTG Blitz, and again Obito had the time to realize what had happened, give Nagato the time to realize what happened (which he will as nothing is catching him off guard with his combined site) and he can react due to feats he has.

Then Minato and Itachi would just continue their assault, making this strategy nothing but a useless delay.

What assault? He ST's them away and then if they try to throw kunai (which btw I dont see them being able to use Itachi's skills to get it behind Nagato while there being blasted by ST) its blocked via Fuuton.

Because you are the one who decided to draw a chakra size comparison between Goemon of all things, and Susanoo. :lol The rest is a repeat of what I've already countered. Unless you actually think Nagato can absorb Susanoo and get away from Itachi before Minato can react, then you have no point. And if you do, then you'd be asked to provide evidence for the claim that Nagato can:

-Absorb the entirety of Susanoo.
-Get away from Itachi.


Before the guy who is fast enough to

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react to V2 Ay thinks and teleports.

-Already posted a scan showing that Hiraishin has a radius. That ends this notion right here.

He can extend his arm, and preta along with it increasing the distance between him and Itachi.

But I literally in my second post said this is un-needed Nagato doesn't need to attack Itachi at all, why you keep going with it idk.

Also note that there are kunai on the dresser closer to him as well, so the range isn't as far as you think it is. Feats show it as unreliable anyways, and he's never depended on it in the manga so you using it so heavily is sketch.

If you give Nagato other's feats, yeah, maybe.

Nope.

Good luck when Itachi forcefully gets in his face. Either he counters or he dies, it's really that simple.

:lol I've shown he can react to Minato suddenly appearing with FTG, but even if he couldn't he extends his arm with preta to meet Itachi.

Let's hit up common sense real quick. Itachi had an illness, and it made his stamina shit. Not his chakra reserves, as you can't have pathetically low chakra reserves and use Susanoo after spamming the MS. Itachi had Susanoo (which takes loads of chakra to form and maintain) up till the moment he died. If he simply "ran out of chakra" and died, he wouldn't have had Susanoo up till the end, unless you think Itachi near zero reserves can form and maintain Susanoo. Not to mention he was coughing blood up before he died. Stamina.

What's even funnier is that Sasuke ran out of chakra before Itachi did, despite Itachi using Mangekyo while Sasuke only used his normal jutsu, Orochimaru's oral rebirth, and curse mark lvl 2 for a few seconds, using partial curse mark for a few minutes.

Yes. He used Susanoo for around 5 minutes, after spamming Amaterasu, using Katon and getting his Tsukuyomi broken which is only another hit to his stamina. Susanoo "rendered a healthy Sasuke to shit" because he spammed it during the Danzo fight, because he had to. Spam isn't necessary here nor will Itachi collapse before Nagato falls.

So much wasted effort as I literally just said I don't care about his stamina, Itachi's going to collapse yeah but not from stamina exertion.

Because why? You say so? :lol. He can't react, period. At least not with the sub par argumentation you have put up for him reacting.

The sub par argumentation you didn't even counter?

No, you think they could've, but when hit with Amaterasu they didn't.

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Instead they burned. Not sure why you are actually trying to argue against something that already happened in canon. :lol

You mean when it was Kabuto trying to control more than he could? Anyways as I said the wall of foam works.

Yes guys "summons can move around" thus Itachi will have a hard time hitting them with a technique that Ay needed his max speed to evade. You are grasping at straws and it's evident here, given that your counter for Amaterasu on the summons is "they move around".

That's not a wall, it's a stream of bubbles. If the clam fires it, it won't block Itachi's view of him, not to mention Itachi can just ignore it, block with Susanoo and then use Amaterasu on another summon who doesn't have an attack to block LoS in any way, shape or form.

What? If he summons it near itachi and he uses it its blocking his LoS whether he used Susano'o or not :lol Do you even read the manga? Raikage was standing still when he needed his higher reactions to avoid it. Sasuke avoided it via moving around, you idiot (Don't give me that Itachi didn't want to hit him crap, he could have easily put it out once Oro was drawn forth.) its really quite simple and I don't know why you're getting it, if things move around in different directions you can't look at them all at the same time :lol and its going to take longer to hit them.

Add in the variable of 30 feet of elevation and the ability to move up and down along with left and right and its even harder.

The bird constantly moving is irrelevant. Unless it's moving faster than Ay it gets hit. I also thought that it was common sense that:

-Harder to do something=/=Evidence that he can't do it.
-Sharingan=/=Normal eyes.
-Sharingan predicts movement, only making it easier for him to zero in on

Pretty sure pre-cog has a range, but using it while Amertarasu is active and one eye closed. Not to mention Nagato can just summon it away from Itachi anyways.

The fact you think a giant bird moving in the air from 30m lol) is going to be too hard for Itachi, who has the Sharingan, to zero in on and hit with Amaterasu when Sharingan can follows faster things moving in more complex patterns is hilariously ridiculous if you ask me. I laugh at the 30m bit considering Cerberus was more than 30m away from Itachi yet he still hit it with Amaterasu.

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.-. its like 10 meters, whatever man nothing really more complex then flight.

To BT Rasengan into Preta, he'd have to react to the initial Hiraishin blitz, which he cannot do. Fuuton and Suiton has been addressed by multiple strategies above.

Didn't adress it at all, and what? If he FTG's to Itachi who is being pulled, he too is pulled, the force isn't only felt by one person lmfao, not to mention it would be farther than a FTG V2 blitz so he could react and get Minato in his own BT (as i've proven he can react to a V2 basically anyways).

You mean two halves of a rock would damage Naruto? Who knows? But I can use the same logic and claim that the rock itself wouldn't have damaged him given his previous feats only for that to be rendered irrelevant since Naruto still tried to prevent himself from getting hit. Regardless of whether or not someone can tank something, getting hit is always something that they try to avoid. Shown by everyone who has had some kind of defensive power in this Manga.

Madara was just tanking shit he could have avoided I believe :lol, but the original rock would have the force increased with BT I was assuming if he broke it the fragments wouldn't be affected anymore.

And wrong again. Kakashi couldn't do shit because he had nothing that'd get him out of that situation due to using his trump right then and there. It's already been shown that movement is possible during Bansho Tennin.

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*Activating* and it hadn't been 5 seconds yet so don't clam he just used it again, he clearly made it stronger as evident by Kakashi's surprised face.

Also please tell me if movement is so free during BT why Naruto wasn't able to destroy preta like he had done a chapter earlier

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Nope, it didn't, but all that means is that the range of the explosive wasn't enough to reach Sasuke after being bounced off of the shield. And Sasuke wouldn't be sent flying backwards like that nor would his sword be sent flying back like that from striking a shield with no reflective capabilities. The sheer fact that Sasuke's sword was sent spiraling in the air while Sasuke himself was sent flying straight to the ground ends any notion that something as large as CST's or a normal ST's force won't be bounced back at Nagato, especially the latter if Itachi gets in Nagato's face like I said he would.

LMFAO

"The fact that a puny sword ricochaed off a strong defense means it ST and CST is most certainly being reflected" are you comparing the power of force to a katana? Anyways jump and strike something and if its unable to pierce it ricoches. Jump and try to pierce, idk titanium the sword vibrates violently and throws you off it.

The sfx is even *claaang* as if it just clashed with something and was thrown backwards, not because it was magically reflected.

Sasuke was basically almost in the blast radious of what he threw

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and wasn't affected at all, so at the very least its not reflecting force back at the user.

Good thing this isn't just Itachi, meaning all other methods of taking out Itachi are completely useless since Minato would kill him if he tried it. Preta Path being the best example.

CST would take out Minato.

Yes. Obito realized what happened....AFTER Minato had blitzed him. Doesn't do much to help him or your argument.

Before he actually hit him though, put Nagato in that situation and ST would be used.

Obito being surprised doesn't change the fact that when it came time to perceive the attack and react, he failed miserably. Nagato knowing that Minato can teleport doesn't mean that he can react. Not even sure where you are basing that off of, cause it seems like you are using Obito's complete and utter failure to react as evidence that Nagato can react.

I'm saying that Obito was putting his focus into warping Minato so even though he realiezd where the blitz was, he couldn't shift it into making himself intangable, pretty sure that's how he was first damaged. Kakashi even stated that's when you have to deal damage to Obito

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Striking a less experienced Obito during his weakened time is impressive but its not as if he was just straight up faster than his intangiblity.

His most powerful technique isn't a technique that consumes a lot of chakra, so I'm not even sure what point you think you are trying to make here. Not like this is relevant since the point you were originally trying to make literally makes zero sense since Naruto used no form of Shunshin on Nagato.

Striking speed man.

Stop using poor logic. "Know it's coming" doesn't change the fact that you still have to be able to react, and nothing you have posted proves that Nagato can react. Your only arguments are:

-Obito failed, so Nagato succeeds.
-B reacted, so Nagato reacts. (which is still flawed)
-Knows it's coming, so he automatically reacts.

Arguent is Obito saw it coming but was during his weak point/phase Nagato isn't going to be vulnerable like Obito so he can easily ST in time.

Two completely different attacks.

Spoiler

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Minato had to put more force in his strike than usual to pierce through Ay's armor (hence the awkward stance where his hand is pressed on his kunai's back), which is why his Kunai slash was able to cut B's tentacle and leave a crater in the ground despite it just being a Kunai slash.

Spoiler

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He doesn't need that for a normal Kunai strike nor does he need that for a Rasengan. Thus the attack will be far quicker, just how it was against Obito in the War and back in Konoha. Though even if that was the fastest strike Minato could muster up, using B's feats for Nagato just because B's attack is slower than Nagato's attack is terrible logic since I can use the same shit for Obito and say that he should've used Kamui to revert to intangible mode after Minato teleported because:

"lol Kamui activation>>>>>>>>>>>>B using tentacle from 10m" away.

Not a noob Obito during Kamui's weak spot, and he'd have to muster up the same amount of strength if he wants to have a hope of striking through Asura's enhanced durability.

The crater was formed from the tentacle striking the earth, nothing to do with how hard he struck.

He needs more time for a Rasengan than he does a simple kunai strike, especially if he's not going to have it up before he blitzes (if he did Nagato can simply activate preta when he see's it happening, and unlike kamui he doesn't have to let preta down).

Yet he didn't, and I wonder why? Because he was too slow. Simple as that. The fact you'd be so desperate to claim that what B prevented was Minato's fastest attack, despite him blitzing Obito with an instant S/T Ninjutsu that lets him phase through things with a Rasengan pretty much shows me the low quality of this "Nagato reacts" point as a whole.

I don't think you understand how Kamui works :lol read the scan I posted with Kakashi above, it was his weakspot moron made even waker from lack of experience with the jutsu most likely (just like Kakashi's Kamui wasn't as strong at first) if you're trying to say he straight up blitzed fast enough for Obito to activate intagablity in general you're a moron, he had focused on switching it off, the weak spot of Kamui.


I'm just going to copy and paste what I said above, cause there's no reason for me to give this another reply.

The rest is an irrelevant repeat of what I've already countered in this debate and literally every single time you try to argue it. You keep talking about Shinra Tensei's activation speed when it's activation speed is irrelevant if Nagato can't react, and you can't prove that he can react. Period. It's really that simple. Near instant ST or any jutsu activation=/=Near instant reactions. People have been physically blitzed despite having techs that activate instantaneously with thought.

You just aren't understanding shit.

Once again, if I used your logic, I'd be saying that Minato should easily react to Juubito with Hiraishin because:

-Lol Hiraishin is instant.
-Lol Juubito's attack isn't.
-Lol Minato reacts.


Not to mention this nonsense is a flawed argument anyway.

Nah.

Since when did KCM Naruto have faster striking speed than Naruto? More baseless claims I see? Since when did Nagato block a strike from Naruto anyway? Oh wait, since never. The only thing he did was react when Naruto first had to charge a Rasengan and then tried to hit Nagato with it.

Oh it was BM that blitzed Obito. KCM still kept up with Itachi

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what CQC feats do you have of Minato that put him anywhere above KCM Naruto and Itachi? Instead of trying to insult my claims whhy not try disproving them instead.

Will Minato not have to charge his Rasengan.......? As I said if he charges it before the bltiz Nagato's going to have Preta up regardless, and if Minato has to charge it after FTG'ng to the kunai then that gives Nagato even more time to react.

Based on the amount he used on Ay, he probably has around 20 of them in his pack, but I've listed strategies to handle Fuuton and the newly mentioned Suiton spam above.

And I've countered them.

Uh? What? Why would B hit the chameleon? I said that Nagato most likely had the chameleon transport him to where B was flying. Never said he was on the chameleon while dealing with Killer B.

1. B goes flying.
2. Chameleon catches up with him.
3. Nagato gets out of chameleon's mouth and then catches B with Preta Path.

Why are you trying to argue that Nagato is lowkey a speedster

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Why are you hyping up a cripple's movement speed in the first place? Does that make any type of sense to you?

You talking about the same chameleon that couldn't even come near SM Jiraiya? If its speed was that good, it wouldn't need to hide itself because it would just be insanely fast :lol. He ended up BEHIND bee which means the chamelon would have had to have out paced the push from ST ( a pretty big one) which it has shown no speed feats for, clearly none you've posted. Nagato said he couldn't move around well because he can't fly and levitate for very long.

Yes, force is force, but he obviously needs more force to fly upwards as he has to act against the downward force of gravity. Doesn't have to do that if he's moving forward or backward, and there is zero proof that his boosters are powerful enough to grant him actual flight.

....He was off the ground horizontally, you can't tell me you don't think he could get off the ground either diagnol or verticaly even. He has two boosters on each foot

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if you think he can't sustain himself in the air you're insane.

If they launch fast enough and strong enough to keep his whole body off the ground horinztally wise (more gravity being applied to more surface area) then there isn't a reason he can't do so with just going straight up.

That's obviously not a booster. :lol Asura Path THREW Animal Path. Where do you see any indication of a booster? :lol I'd love to see it.

So you're saying he's strong enough to launch a human being that far simply by kneeling down and then standing up again? Not even Tsunade or Sakura is that strong :lol, it obviously was a kind of mechanical feature unique to the Asura path, unless you wanted to show me feats putting him as the strongest shinobi in the manga. So no reason he can't launch himself.

No, Kishimoto portrayed it perfectly. "Didn't have time" is probably the most pathetic excuse you could bring to justify the claims you're making. It's just clowns who love to corrode what canon says because what it showed didn't meet their expectations. I'm sick of reading arguments with zero proof behind them. Period. Asura Path has shown to let Nagato summon 6 mechanical arms and 3 mechanical heads, and feet with boosters on them. Period. This isn't some Mr. Potato Face type shit where Nagato can make an arm on his belly, make a booster on his face, arm, leg, or whatever nonsense you and others love to imply when it comes to this, and things like this.

I stated this earlier but i'll zoom in on it here for you

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Its clearly spawning in a higher position than it did originally. It moved after that btw, as there is no possible way that if it spawned originally like it did in this scan

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that we could see it behind Nagato's head.

Just the fact that he now has the booster on his arm isntead of his head prompts the fact that he can change.

Hell he doesn't even need to, all he has to do is extend his arm with Asura path, doesn't need to spawn it any lower.

Inb4 you cry about the databook some more, DB states that it makes the body into a weapon, and that the user can change their shape at will. Nagato summoning multiple arms and faces is changing his shape. "Change his shape into whatever he wants" is just an extra point added on so you could continue with this hilariously weak argument.

at whatever time or in whatever way one pleases.

Definition for "At will" only one that defines phrases is google. Clearly you just lack basic knowledge on common phrases.

The bold is not only a completely irrelevant attempt at grasping at straws, it's also 100% false. Do I have to bring DB entries where what was said in the Manga was literally the same as what was said in the DB?

Because some techinques aren't as diverse.....is that you're only argument?

-Totsuka is described as a spirit weapon with no form in the Manga, it is shown to seal what it pierces. DB says the same exact thing with no extra abilities.

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And there's more, but this is an irrelevant point so I'm not going to waste time bringing some more. Until you have proof,

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is the limit of Asura Path. What was shown in canon. I'm not with that fanfiction nonsense.

I never said he could spawn MORE arms, I said he could shift one down more, although gurantee you're going to contradict this argument when it suits you more :lol

Lmfao, ironic we are talking about butthurt when it's clear who the butthurt one is.

Bruh we all know you're the queen of butthurt.

He summons it. Period. He doesn't nor has he shown to configure it in any way he pleases. Nagato using Asura Attack (The name of the cannon) on his arm and his head only means that he can use Asura Attack on his arm and his head. Nothing more. So stop using that as an excuse to act like this is some game where Nagato can drop and drag any feature he wants onto any part of his body.

:lol...... If he can form one thing in two different spots, no reason he can't do the same with a limb.

One last thing

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There are clearly multipme joint holes for the arms to fit in, meaning that he can clearly put them in seperate order or hell even make more than 6 as there are 6 there not counting the ones on the other side.

If you still don't believe it oh well, need the judges to not you.

Nope. He fired it at a higher altitude as already stated, but not at an angle where it'd just crash into the ground. It followed Choji because it was fired at Choji. Only way it'd hit the ground if he fired it at a steep angle, which he didn't. Once again, Asura Path has never shown homing missiles.

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A homing missile is something that follows the opponent,

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Its clearly pointed straight down, it would have had to stablize its flight path a bit to not hit the ground right there.

-Assumption, assumption. :lol The bodily stats of these clones are exactly the same as long as he doesn't spread too much chakra out. Shown literally every single time Naruto uses clones. The only thing that could differ would be Shunshin, but that's irrelevant here.

-Multiple missiles that are still too slow to catch Minato and too weak to get past Susanoo. Then we have S/T Barrier. Weak point is clearly weak. Just drop the missiles. Not sure why you would attempt to use missiles as a counterargument against a teleporter with a magic barrier anyway.

The point is to make him teleport......But like we said you're using the Mountain marking anyways.

Minato blocks the first with S/T Barrier or Itachi blocks with Susanoo, and Nagato has to actually make it to them first, but he won't with Itachi and Minato in his way.

They'd be ST'd :lol , along with any kunai near him so don't give me that either. Kunai thrown after (if they get up before the 5 seconds for some reason) are then blocked via fuuton/suiton.

But again this doesn't matter if you're using the marking on the mountain.

:lol This is practically Edo Nagato w/o the Edo and w/ mobility. Paths are long dead by that point in canon. Not to mention he needs rods in his back if he wants to control them (Please don't reference Obito again as Obito's control>Nagato's control as stated in canon) And even then, he'd have to channel his abilities into them, thus he won't be able to use them himself.

Well if he summons human path, and he can keep his Asura path ability that serves its purpose but very well.

Minato has access to each and every toad in Mount Myoboku. Though he only needs one here.

Yes, because Minato and Itachi will sit there sipping tea while Nagato rushes at the toads. :lol Itachi and Minato easily block his path, forcing him to either blow them away with Shinra Tensei or try and go around them. The latter isn't happening with two people faster than you, and if he uses Shinra Tensei, he exposes himself long enough for Minato to take him out, not to mention Itachi's mirror would reflect it.

No...It...Wouldn't. If he blows them away with ST he can then counter with fuuton if they throw shit, as shunsin wouldn't be fast enough after being blown away.

I said no outside markings. :lol This one is literally on the battlefield. You should be glad I even switched up the conditions at all after the debate had started.

But he will.

Ight keep it.

Good, now let me teach you how to read the Manga and the Databook.

Made me chuckle :lol

-DB states that damage comes from a combination of the initial force and the impact. That doesn't mean that the damage from the initial force is enough to kill or do any serious damage.

-Manga shows

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,

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,

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(No damage received until they hit the ground, or at least no damage that'd be anywhere near life threatening), and

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taking no serious damage from getting hit by Shinra Tensei. They all took major damage when they hit the ground. So can we please cut the BS out and stop trying to argue against what was already shown? Please and thank you. :lol

When you can show me any variant of Shinra Tensei doing any sort of damage to the target before the ground was hit then we can talk, because I have manga panels that end your point.

Why would it state combination and exclaim that the damage from the ground is an addition to the already present damage of the shockwave thats like saying hitting the ground is what disperses jutsu used against it too :lol, it was strong enough to disperse amertarasu immediately.
Even if the original ST isn't enough without the ground to do serious damage, but the CST? enough force to destroy a village condensed onto one person, you don't need to hit the ground you'd be crushed in an instant.



It does matter, it matters plenty.

Sounds foolish. Itachi isn't a sensor, so yeah. Minato is. There is no "sense well enough". Either you can sense or you don't when it comes to feeling chakra. Better sensors only start to feel chakra from further away, or they can learn more details from sensing one's chakra than a novice sensor can note.

So unless your next post proves why Minato can't sense chakra, don't bother trying to address this point. What's even funnier is that you probably made this claim based on literally nothing but your opinion.

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Is he going to be doing this the entire fight? Don't recallly having any more impressive sensor feats, even if he does Minato needs to swtich to sensing, and during the midst of a battle I doubt he's going to be doing that, especially when you have him being blasted by ST and trying to FTG blitz Nagato 24/7/

You literally have no way of knowing when CST is going to be used.

Them being near Nagato doesn't change the fact that CST is far from instant, as shown by the panels literally depicting it traveling throughout the village.

So? The shockwave started at the center and spread out till it wiped out the whole village. If the shockwave is only coming towards them and not any other area, then it's a directional attack. If it's spreading out throughout the whole entire village then it is a widespread CST. Period. The scenario you yourself put Nagato in is no different from the scenario Deva Path was in when he nuked the village. Only difference is, the force will either spread out all across the crater, or it will only come in one direction. It is not instant or anywhere close to that speed, and it creates a shockwave. Shown. In. CANON. So Minato easily sees it coming and then that's a wrap for this attack. It's tanked or dodged.

What? If Nagato decides to use a directional one, Minato is getting squashed, its instant and there is no shockwaves if all the force is being condensed into one area? Minato has no way of knowing when this will even occur, substitute all those times you had him being pushed back by a normal ST with one of CST magnitude and he's finished. Even if he did a village wide one he'd do it directly over Minato, or how would one he used on the village look if used from on the ground? Either way I don't see why Nagato wouldn't just condense it so it strikes Minato only in that case, just to reduce the risk of Minato dodging it.

Shinra Tensei pushes things back. If it were to hit someone or something it'd push that attack right back at the person. So yes, Shinra Tensei CAN reflect Ninjutsu, but it all depends on the jutsu in question. Yata Mirror has already reflected things in canon, the only issue was the distance between Sasuke and the Mirror when the explosions went off, and the size of the explosion itself.

There wasn't that big a distance and the explosion was decent sized if it "reflected" it the whole blast would have been redirected towards Sasuke instead of just exploding on impact.

ST didn't reflect Kakashi's lightning hound

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Already posted scans of the shockwave. It being directional means that there is no shockwave in all directions. Not that there is no shockwave period when the shockwave only comes about due to the amount and size of the force used in the first place, and due to the environment they are in.

When I say directional I mean that all the force is going to be condensed into a human sized area, where it proceeds to squash Minato :lol, I thought you know that as you were talking about it getting stronger, anyways even in your way if he uses it with Minato as the starting point he still gets squased and the shockwaves come after.

What in the hell? How would Nagato force Minato to retreat TOWARDS him when the whole point of a retreat is to get away from enemy? If he were going to place a marking, he'd be going in the complete opposite direction Nagato is located. How is Nagato going to force him to retreat right there?

Because he'd need to FTG away, and that is in the oppisite direction.

Nothing, but considering there is a marking on Minato's stone statue, it doesn't really matter if he tries to use CST when Minato starts to set his markings up, not to mention if it's a widespread CST Itachi tanks it. If it's a focused one then Minato simply evades by teleporting to any random kunai that he set up from the start of the battle.

I'm not talking about CST I meant CT, although directionally wise or condensed he has no way of knowing when its going to be used to teleport, and he gets squashed.

The body IS the flock of crows, thus the marking would be on one of the crows after they all split up.

No chakra forms it into the body, it would be on the chakra changing the crows shape. This doesn't really matter though as an attack like Asura's abilities would make ALL the crows vanish, not just a few.

Except you assumed (like you did with half of the stuff in your post) that he'd have to mark a single crow.

-Kunai have been addressed.
-If he blocks with a summon then Itachi toasts it and they rinse and repeat.
-If he moves backwards he gets caught since he's not faster than Itachi in any way, shape or form.
-If he uses Shinra Tensei then Minato takes him out during the cooldown.
-If he uses Asura Path, then Minato would simply block all explosions with the S/T Barrier.

Half of those require them to stop their attacks, and after ST the fuuton and suiton both block any attempts to take advantage of the cooldown.

-Addressed.
-Your evidence is shoddy.
-Why would he carry Itachi

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?
-The crows are controlled by Itachi and the Kunai's destination is based on where Minato throws it. If the marking is in front of Nagato, and Itachi teleports to that marking, he will be right in front of Nagato. That simple.

But he wont be directly in his eye sight, there are multiple reasons for that, hell from right there he could human path Itachi before Tsukuyomi is even activated, if Minato tries to blitz he ST's them both away.

Addressed multiple times above. The last part with CST is useless since you can't nor have you proven that Nagato can react. The rest has been addressed as well.

Sort of have

Match ends with Minato killing Nagato. Either by using Itachi and Susanoo to get the marking near him, or by tossing it in the areas where his Fuuton won't reach.

Nah fam.


Anyways Nagato wins this matchup firstly because you haven't countered CT, and I mean at all...idk if you forgot about it or something but its not evident in your last two posts really.

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Its range is gigantic, larger than the origianal crater they are batteling in (a whole mountain range) so the hokage mountain is going to be taken in along with any other FTG seals for Minato to teleport out of.

-They don't have the capacity to take it down on their own
-Once inside to make sure it ends Nagato uses a CST on the CT crushing them like a giant godly sandcoffin


That combined with the fact that

-Nagato has the FTG kunai countered
-Itachi is not a threat
-Even at the worst Nagato can most likely react to an FTG blitz he see's coming. With the feats enad explanations I've given you
-Minato has no way to counter a condensed CST when used on him, he won't be in sensing mode to sense it and he can't see it coming, so he gets crushed. Itachi is then toyed with for 5 minutes as Preta shits on his whole arsenal until CST again destroys him as well. This and CT end this battle.

Needed to fix some quotes for edit

 

[DrProof]

Wall of Text solo me asf. You'd never catch me in this kind of debate. NOPE.

How many more post y'all got?

 

[Zexion~]

That was the last one I believe.

 

[Zexion~]

Anyone want to judge this btw? Someone credible, its long yeah but I don't think its a bad read by any means.


***** multi post

 

[EZQ]

I would judge it if i dind't have to judge bean's debate.

Of course, just if i'm credible enough

 

[Zexion~]

I would judge it if i dind't have to judge bean's debate.

Of course, just if i'm credible enough

**** beans this is for a tourney (and better )

If you really want to, you'd have to ask KG tho.....

 

[KidGamer65]

EZQ, if you want to judge it's A-OK with me.

 

[3MESSIAH]

Disagree here. Minato alone can't beat Nagato.

i never said he would

i said he has good chances

with itachi as backup this just became a walk in the park

minato can literally avoid and counter everything nagato throws at him yet nagato would have a hard time dealing with his S/T

nagato absorbs one rasengan from minato and receives minato`s chakra....and we all know minato can teleport to a person he touched or a person that shares his chakra....that way minato can teleport straight to nagato and kills him with a kunai....because nagato can protect from such things via encasing himself with asura`s path mechanism this isnt a sure victory but still i believe minato has better chances....anyway not my debate,but just to put it out there

 

[EZQ]

All right i'll start my veredict later today

 

[Gold Lightning]

Feel sorry for anyone who has to judge this novel

 

[EZQ]

(T_T)

Be patient people, this is long.

 

[Zexion~]

Feel sorry for anyone who has to judge this novel

Why? If you actually enjoy debating and the subject its a good read :lol, if you don't enjoy it enough to "deal" with wallies you probably should be spending the majority of your life elsewhere....

Not just you but everyone who complains about walls of text, as long as they're good arguments and not retarded shit, people shouldnt complain.

 

[Apêx1]

Why? If you actually enjoy debating and the subject its a good read :lol, if you don't enjoy it enough to "deal" with wallies you probably should be spending the majority of your life elsewhere....

Not just you but everyone who complains about walls of text, as long as they're good arguments and not retarded shit, people shouldnt complain.

So you're going to be spending the majority of your life on NB?

 

[Kagustuchi]

Hit me up in a few days if guys still need a judge. I've got game today and tommorow in UMvC. I should be free after work on days after that

 

[Zexion~]

So you're going to be spending the majority of your life on NB?

What? It was a generelization most people spind their lives on here.....You most definitely included :lol

 

[Apêx1]

What? It was a generelization most people spind their lives on here.....You most definitely included :lol

Lmfao it was a joke. Seemed like you were getting emotional because he doesn't like wallies so the "you probably should be spending the majority of your life elsewhere...." made it pretty funny.

 

[Zexion~]

Lmfao it was a joke. Seemed like you were getting emotional because he doesn't like wallies so the "you probably should be spending the majority of your life elsewhere...." made it pretty funny.

Emotional? Nah, just annoying how the hate on wallies wasn't a thing until someone started spouting it like a month ago, now if you post longer than 3 paragraphs its considered bad and unreadable. :lol

You clearly tried to throw a flame at me my man,

 

[Apêx1]

Emotional? Nah, just annoying how the hate on wallies wasn't a thing until someone started spouting it like a month ago, now if you post longer than 3 paragraphs its considered bad and unreadable. :lol

You clearly tried to throw a flame at me my man,

Nobody used to make such giant wallies before, it was all opener sized arguments. Nowadays I feel like I'm never going to finish scrolling down.

And nah dude, I might throw flames all the time but this was just funny.