[VS] Hiashi Hyūga (Apêx) vs Sandaime Raikage (IKratos)

[Apêx1]

Reacting to Sandaime Raikage

To start, I'd like to address why there's no chance that the Sandaime will be blitzing Hiashi in this match. This is not only due to the Byakugan, but the overestimated speed which v1 Raiton shroud grants. The Byakugan, unlike the Sharingan, Rinnegan, or normal eye, doesn't have a 'focused' line of sight. Everything is seen with perfect accuracy regardless of where the Byakugan user is looking. Hence, problems like this may never arise [

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][

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] because the Byakugan sees it all. This was indicated already in the Lee vs Gaara fight, where everyone was shown to be incapable of tracking Lee, but Neji was shown to be able to see everything with his Bykaugan activated [

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]. That's because the only way to get out of somebody's vision is to be too fast for them to re-focus on you. For example, against Juubito, Sasuke's eyes could follow with Juubito's movements, and thus he didn't lose sight of him because he was looking at him the whole time. Against a Byakugan user, the user does not need to follow the movement for the opponent to be in the Byakugan's focus, because he's always in focus.

Now that this is established, let's look at Dodai reacting to Sandaime Raikage [

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]. Dodai was thrown into the air while off-guard, and was being attacked from behind by the Sandaime while airborne. Despite this, Dodai still manages to 180 in mid-air, make the hand seal after turning, and then release the rubber and allow it formation to finish. Another case of v1 speed being reacted to is Jugo blocking it at the last second with his arms, and Suigetsu finishing his sentence before Ay even arrives [

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]. The notion that people like Dodai and Jugo have even comparable reaction speed to a Byakugan user like Hiashi is laughable. He was confirmed far above that level when he 'quickly took care of the Cloud Shinobi leader' [

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] and was portrayed to be a god in front of Neji and Hinata.

This is especially the case when we realise how huge of a feat

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. We know that the Bijuu's tail is always its most powerful body part because it possesses the highest chakra concentration as shown when the Kyuubi tanked Juubi laser/used its tail rather then hand to smash Madara's Susano. Thus, a tail cannot possibly be slower then the arm since they possess far greater strength. Yet, we see the v1 Juubi attack so fast that BM Naruto, Hachibi and Kakashi could all not even see it (as noted by Kakashi himself)[

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]. And now we also remember.. That was the v1 Juubi which is exponentially weaker then the v2 Juubi. Hiashi reacted to its tail on two occasions, once with Kaiten and once with Air Palm. The Kaiten occasion is interesting since everybody, even the guys 3 meters from Neji and Hiashi are being blasted away without being capable of reacting (was going to happen to Naruto too) yet Hiashi and Neji run straight at it and spin, blocking it [

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]. The Air Palm is interesting because Hiashi made a far larger impact with his Air palm [

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] then Hinata did with a full Kyuubi cloak [

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]. That boost is dramatic, there's like a 50-100x boost, yet they can be seen as comparable in their singular air palms. That should be proof of Hiashi's power, he was as strong as people with the Kyuubi cloaks, the same Kyuubi cloaks which made the Akimichi's go from <Gedo to >v2 Juubi, Lee blitzing Madara, etc. Scaling Hiashi's strength proportionally would put him far above the likes of Jugo and Dodai, so reacting is a little obstacle.

How it will go: Sandaime gathers large amounts of chakra at his feet for Shunshin which will be visible to the Byakugan [

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][

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]. Hiashi will thus be ready for Shunshin, and depending on the amount of chakra gathered (

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), he'll realise roughly how fast the Sandaime will be moving towards him. With this information, and his reaction speed, he will easily be able to anticipate the Sandaime's speed. Sandaime using hell stab will also not come off as a surprise to Hiashi because its power can be determined through the amount of chakra present in that one point. Hence, countering it through air palm serves an effective way of nullifying the threat it poses.

Bypassing Sandaime's Durability

Sandaime Raikage is revered as one of the most durable Shinobi's ever. His physical body was almost impregnable. But it sucks for the Raikage that physical durability is irrelevant in front of Gentle Fist [

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] as stated by Kakashi himself. Being tough doesn't mean anything since it only affects you internally. Without intel, Jyuken will come off as a surprise and a single hit can have a significant impact on the duration of the fight. This is shown to be the case when Hinata fixes Naruto's shoulder while he is in BM [

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], surpassing his insane durability while in that mode. Raikage will be no exception, since as shwon vs BM Naruto, there's no resistance to Jyuken. Hence if Sandaime tries to fight Hiashi in CQC, he'll end up having to deal with Hiashi's ability to one shot him. The strategy that Hiashi will utilise in this match is using small scale air palms and Jyuken to destroy the Sandaime Raikage. Using a small scale Air palm on his hell stab hand to push it back while in CQC range, would give Hiashi an open Jyuken attack; one that can end the fight. Jyuken used near the organs can easily end the match, and Jyuken used to dislocate a shoulder would also present dramatic difficulties for Sandaime Raikage. Let's also not forget that the 5 in Taijutsu (even above the likes of Kakashi) which Hiashi received in the databook is not there for nothing. In a straight up CQC fight, Sandaime will be incapable of doing anything against a Taijutsu master. Another easy way to bypass the Sandaime's durability is Twin Lion Fist. Although we haven't seen Hiashi use this jutsu, the databook states:

"Strong will held in the fists!!

Its form is double lion heads!!

A secret high-level Gentle Fist technique, taught only to the main family of the Hyūga Clan. By changing the shape of Chakra released from both hands, [the user] greatly increases reach and destructive power. The arms become entirely like lions which drain the Chakra network of those they touch.

Because it will fail at even the slightest mistake in Chakra control, it is extremely difficult to learn this ability, which is a feat that requires the Byakugan."

If it is taught to the main family, then Hiashi is the one teaching it. Thus, Hiashi can drain Sandaime's chakra with every touch. And 'every touch' will happen quite frequently given the range of the Lions [

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]. Look at how far back her arms are in comparison to the tip of the lion. That's comparable to having an arm 3 times as long, so Hell Stab's range will be a joke here. Let's assume Hiashi, who taught Hinata how to use it and is the head of the Hyuga, is only at her level and not far above it when it comes to this jutsu.

Strategy:
With no intel, Hiashi's Gentle Fist will have a huge impact on this fight. Sandaime is known to run around blitzing everything with his Hell Stab. This won't be possible against a Byakugan user who can see the chakra build up in his finger and his feet, anticipating the power of the Hell Stab and the speed of the Shunshin. With that, he can either use an Air Palm and send the Sandaime flying or fight head on. For safety purpose, Hiashi will use a Air Palm which will send the Sandaime 20 meters back and then quickly Shunshin somewhere into the forest behind the trees while the Raikage is flying looking upwards. Without sensory capabilities or acute senses, Hiashi will be hidden from Sandaime's sight, while Hiashi can see the Sandaime perfectly due to his Byakugan which has the capacity to see many kilometres away. Another air palm is used this time, but to the Raikage's side. This will send the Raikage further away from Hiashi, while Hiashi can Shunshin towards the Raikage (but this time, Raikage is looking to a different direction). Hiashi reaches and is either in range for 64 palms, or hits a Jyuken or two to the Sandaime's organs/dislocates his shoulders/destroys his throat/etc. The Raikage won't be doing much here other then being sent around the area while Hiashi follows up with Jyuken or Twin Lion Fist. In the case Raikage can surprise Hiashi and make it into his CQC range, then Hiashi still smashes him due to his mastery of Taijutsu. As we saw in the manga, being a master of Taijutsu is far more then just speed. 7G Gai could pressure JJ Madara with pure Taijutsu despite being far slower then JJ Madara. Speed is barely a factor in CQC when it comes to a Taijutsu master like Hiashi, and even if it was, his reaction speed is great as I have already shown.

I don't believe it is necessary for me to write a lot about Black Lightning because it's easily countered via rotation and Air Palm.

 

[Apêx1]

Sorry if some people think it's long, but my opener post needed to clear some things up since most people don't know about them, or choose to ignore them. So I had to put some more information then necessary to explain why or how something is the case.

 

[Worm]

How is that long

 

[Apêx1]

How is that long

Long compared to average, a few words compared to you.

 

[NSUNSR]

I thought it was the fourth raikage...

Anyways, if Kratos knows his character well, he will still win.

 

[Zexion~]

This is for the tourney right....?

 

[Lord Tywin]

We're doing 2 posts?

Reacting to Sandaime Raikage

To start, I'd like to address why there's no chance that the Sandaime will be blitzing Hiashi in this match. This is not only due to the Byakugan, but the overestimated speed which v1 Raiton shroud grants. The Byakugan, unlike the Sharingan, Rinnegan, or normal eye, doesn't have a 'focused' line of sight. Everything is seen with perfect accuracy regardless of where the Byakugan user is looking. Hence, problems like this may never arise [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

] because the Byakugan sees it all. This was indicated already in the Lee vs Gaara fight, where everyone was shown to be incapable of tracking Lee, but Neji was shown to be able to see everything with his Bykaugan activated [

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]. That's because the only way to get out of somebody's vision is to be too fast for them to re-focus on you. For example, against Juubito, Sasuke's eyes could follow with Juubito's movements, and thus he didn't lose sight of him because he was looking at him the whole time. Against a Byakugan user, the user does not need to follow the movement for the opponent to be in the Byakugan's focus, because he's always in focus.

I agree with your explanation of Byakugan's insight and vision. However it still comes to your body being able to react. The same case as Sasuke vs Lee, or 2 tomoe Sasuke vs KM1 Naruto. Sasuke could see his opponent, but couldn't physically react to them. This is the case with Raikage vs Hiashi. Hiashi might be able to see raikage, but physically he wouldn't be able to react to him. One shortcoming of Byakugan is that it doesn't grant the user precognition, like Sharingan does. Byakugan user will have no problem seeing a sneak attack from an opponent comparable in speed. But what it can't do is let the user predict opponent's movement. In terms of precognition, Byakugan is no better than a normal eye. It lets you see around yourself, and lets you see the chakra network, or body's organs and bones. No precognition means the end of Hiashi against the Third. Naruto said this

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He needed SM to sense Raikage's attack. SM grants the user some kind of precognition, which again, Byakugan doesn't.

This all explains why if Hiashi won't physically react to Third. He might be able to see him, but he still won't be countering him.

Now that this is established, let's look at Dodai reacting to Sandaime Raikage [

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]. Dodai was thrown into the air while off-guard, and was being attacked from behind by the Sandaime while airborne. Despite this, Dodai still manages to 180 in mid-air, make the hand seal after turning, and then release the rubber and allow it formation to finish. Another case of v1 speed being reacted to is Jugo blocking it at the last second with his arms, and Suigetsu finishing his sentence before Ay even arrives [

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]. The notion that people like Dodai and Jugo have even comparable reaction speed to a Byakugan user like Hiashi is laughable. He was confirmed far above that level when he 'quickly took care of the Cloud Shinobi leader' [

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] and was portrayed to be a god in front of Neji and Hinata.

Dodai is known to be a sensor. He's part of the communication team.
There is also the case of Raikage being in mid air as well. Meaning that his speed wasn't constant, as the gravity is pulling him downward, and the his jump is losing its power and speed before he reached Naruto and Dodai.
It seems like you're reaching for Hiashi here. The cloud ninja that kidnapped Hinata was a fodder. We don't know anything about him. You're comparing the cloud ninja to Juugo and suigetsu, which is what laughable.

Raikage's true speed was shown when he was going head to head against SM Naruto.
Raikage was dodging KCM Naruto like nothing. This Naruto caught Muu off guard with Chakra arms, with one move at that. While Naruto had to use decoy and trickery to land a hit on Raikage.
Raikage was fast enough to dodge frs from point blank range

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And then came SM Naruto. His only chance was to beat him with SM's sensing, something Hiashi doesn't have.

This is especially the case when we realise how huge of a feat

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. We know that the Bijuu's tail is always its most powerful body part because it possesses the highest chakra concentration as shown when the Kyuubi tanked Juubi laser/used its tail rather then hand to smash Madara's Susano. Thus, a tail cannot possibly be slower then the arm since they possess far greater strength. Yet, we see the v1 Juubi attack so fast that BM Naruto, Hachibi and Kakashi could all not even see it (as noted by Kakashi himself)[

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]. And now we also remember.. That was the v1 Juubi which is exponentially weaker then the v2 Juubi. Hiashi reacted to its tail on two occasions, once with Kaiten and once with Air Palm. The Kaiten occasion is interesting since everybody, even the guys 3 meters from Neji and Hiashi are being blasted away without being capable of reacting (was going to happen to Naruto too) yet Hiashi and Neji run straight at it and spin, blocking it [

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]. The Air Palm is interesting because Hiashi made a far larger impact with his Air palm [

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] then Hinata did with a full Kyuubi cloak [

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]. That boost is dramatic, there's like a 50-100x boost, yet they can be seen as comparable in their singular air palms. That should be proof of Hiashi's power, he was as strong as people with the Kyuubi cloaks, the same Kyuubi cloaks which made the Akimichi's go from <Gedo to >v2 Juubi, Lee blitzing Madara, etc. Scaling Hiashi's strength proportionally would put him far above the likes of Jugo and Dodai, so reacting is a little obstacle.

you're telling me that all these random nobodies are on the level of Hiashi in terms of reaction?

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You even said Bee couldn't react, which in the scans I posted you see him not only reacting, he was fast enough to make a TBB.

Now on your point about Kaiten
You see Neji coming to talk to Naruto

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Then Neji notices Juubi's hand coming behind Naruto.

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As you both Hiashi and Neji running behind Naruto.
Naruto was going to get blasted away because he didn't know the hands were coming for him, as the hands were coming from behind him. So once again, it seems like you're reaching.

Now for the cloak argument.

Strength doesn't correlate with reaction speed. JJ Madara is massively above Sasuke in terms of dc, but he was unable to counter amenotejikara. Naruto is far above Sasuke in dc, but he was still caught by amenotejikara. Strength has nothing to do with being able to react. The claok they received gave their techniques a boost. It didn't let them see better.

How it will go: Sandaime gathers large amounts of chakra at his feet for Shunshin which will be visible to the Byakugan [

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][

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]. Hiashi will thus be ready for Shunshin, and depending on the amount of chakra gathered (

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), he'll realise roughly how fast the Sandaime will be moving towards him. With this information, and his reaction speed, he will easily be able to anticipate the Sandaime's speed. Sandaime using hell stab will also not come off as a surprise to Hiashi because its power can be determined through the amount of chakra present in that one point. Hence, countering it through air palm serves an effective way of nullifying the threat it poses.

This will again come to whether Hiashi can react to Raikage, which he can't. I've showed above raikage's feats against KCM Naruto, and Naruto needing some kind of precognition to land a hit on Raikage. Byakugan has no such ability.

Kaiten isn't a guaranteed counter to hell stab either.

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Kaiten was shown to break with a great amount of force, which Raikage posses. Raikage will either run through it with his 1 finger hell stab, or will punch it, similar to what Naruto did. Raikage, being the tank he is, will feel nothing, while Hiashi will receive heavy damage.
Naruto vs Neji shows just how much a broken Kaiten deals damage to the user. Neji wasn't even hurt before his kaiten was broken. But after Naruto broke it, Neji went down with one punch, and couldn't even get up.

Bypassing Sandaime's Durability

Sandaime Raikage is revered as one of the most durable Shinobi's ever. His physical body was almost impregnable. But it sucks for the Raikage that physical durability is irrelevant in front of Gentle Fist [

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] as stated by Kakashi himself. Being tough doesn't mean anything since it only affects you internally. Without intel, Jyuken will come off as a surprise and a single hit can have a significant impact on the duration of the fight. This is shown to be the case when Hinata fixes Naruto's shoulder while he is in BM [

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], surpassing his insane durability while in that mode. Raikage will be no exception, since as shwon vs BM Naruto, there's no resistance to Jyuken. Hence if Sandaime tries to fight Hiashi in CQC, he'll end up having to deal with Hiashi's ability to one shot him. The strategy that Hiashi will utilise in this match is using small scale air palms and Jyuken to destroy the Sandaime Raikage. Using a small scale Air palm on his hell stab hand to push it back while in CQC range, would give Hiashi an open Jyuken attack; one that can end the fight. Jyuken used near the organs can easily end the match, and Jyuken used to dislocate a shoulder would also present dramatic difficulties for Sandaime Raikage. Let's also not forget that the 5 in Taijutsu (even above the likes of Kakashi) which Hiashi received in the databook is not there for nothing. In a straight up CQC fight, Sandaime will be incapable of doing anything against a Taijutsu master. Another easy way to bypass the Sandaime's durability is Twin Lion Fist. Although we haven't seen Hiashi use this jutsu, the databook states:

I fully agree that raikage isn't immune to gentle fist. But raikage can escape anything Hiashi can offer with his far greater speed.
Gentle fist has shown to be used against stationary opponents.

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And by this I mean the whole thing. Nothing short of the whole thing would even phase the raikage. Having one or two of his chakra points blocked won't slow raikage down one bit. He'd just move back before Hiashi can pull off the whole thing.
Air palm is either side stepped, or tanked with little to no damage. Rasenshuriken was able to put tiny cracks on his edo body. Neji's air palm couldn't even make Kisame to make a discomforting remark, let alone hurt him

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Raikage's body is far far above 30% kisame or 100% kisame by feats. Air palm is more than useless here.

However I have my doubts whether Jyuken can work here. Raikage's body is strong enough to survive light speed teleportation. For him to travel as fast as light, his particles have to change to light particles, meaning his entire molecular base is strong enough to be not turn into light particles. I doubt Jyuken can even displace a single molecule in raikage's body.

"Strong will held in the fists!!

Its form is double lion heads!!

A secret high-level Gentle Fist technique, taught only to the main family of the Hyūga Clan. By changing the shape of Chakra released from both hands, [the user] greatly increases reach and destructive power. The arms become entirely like lions which drain the Chakra network of those they touch.

Because it will fail at even the slightest mistake in Chakra control, it is extremely difficult to learn this ability, which is a feat that requires the Byakugan."

If it is taught to the main family, then Hiashi is the one teaching it. Thus, Hiashi can drain Sandaime's chakra with every touch. And 'every touch' will happen quite frequently given the range of the Lions [

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]. Look at how far back her arms are in comparison to the tip of the lion. That's comparable to having an arm 3 times as long, so Hell Stab's range will be a joke here. Let's assume Hiashi, who taught Hinata how to use it and is the head of the Hyuga, is only at her level and not far above it when it comes to this jutsu.

This technique ends hiashi sooner than it should. It isn't as fast as 64 hands, and Hiashi doesn't have reaction speed on par with SM Naruto to be able to counter raikage. Hiashi gets minced.

Strategy:
With no intel, Hiashi's Gentle Fist will have a huge impact on this fight. Sandaime is known to run around blitzing everything with his Hell Stab. This won't be possible against a Byakugan user who can see the chakra build up in his finger and his feet, anticipating the power of the Hell Stab and the speed of the Shunshin. With that, he can either use an Air Palm and send the Sandaime flying or fight head on. For safety purpose, Hiashi will use a Air Palm which will send the Sandaime 20 meters back and then quickly Shunshin somewhere into the forest behind the trees while the Raikage is flying looking upwards. Without sensory capabilities or acute senses, Hiashi will be hidden from Sandaime's sight, while Hiashi can see the Sandaime perfectly due to his Byakugan which has the capacity to see many kilometres away. Another air palm is used this time, but to the Raikage's side. This will send the Raikage further away from Hiashi, while Hiashi can Shunshin towards the Raikage (but this time, Raikage is looking to a different direction). Hiashi reaches and is either in range for 64 palms, or hits a Jyuken or two to the Sandaime's organs/dislocates his shoulders/destroys his throat/etc. The Raikage won't be doing much here other then being sent around the area while Hiashi follows up with Jyuken or Twin Lion Fist. In the case Raikage can surprise Hiashi and make it into his CQC range, then Hiashi still smashes him due to his mastery of Taijutsu. As we saw in the manga, being a master of Taijutsu is far more then just speed. 7G Gai could pressure JJ Madara with pure Taijutsu despite being far slower then JJ Madara. Speed is barely a factor in CQC when it comes to a Taijutsu master like Hiashi, and even if it was, his reaction speed is great as I have already shown.

I don't believe it is necessary for me to write a lot about Black Lightning because it's easily countered via rotation and Air Palm.

Your strategy falls flat on its face when Raikage can easily side step Hiashi's air palm. It doesn't have the speed to remotely phase raikage. Even if he's hit and loses sight of Hiashi, it comes down to a battle of stamine, which raikage shit stomps Hiashi in it. With Raikage constantly moving around to look for Hiashi, and their huge gap between foot speed, Hiashi will have little luck trying to land a hit on raikage. Raikage will eventually find him.

Black lightning can come in handy for Raikage to see some of Hiashi's abilities. He can use it right off the bat and make Hiashi either counter with air palm or rotation, which will give their surprise factor away. If Hiashi uses air palm, Raikage will know to dodge the wind based attack next time, which he will know will be harmful to his lightning cloak. If he uses rotation, Raikage will know to not carelessly attack Hiashi straight on next time, and will play around the field to wait for the appropriate time to strike.

What I would like you to address thoroughly is Hiashi's reaction speed, and how he can effectively counter raikage's top speed.

 

[Unorthodox]

I'm glad Zexion shat on you in the debate smh.

LMFAO deeeaaaad.

This is for the tourney right....?

This tourny been going on forever if this is really apart of the tourny then


Apex as a debater > kratos

But the 3rd mauls Hiashi

could go either way

 

[Lord Tywin]

Apex as a debater > kratos

Imma come for that ass boi

 

[Unorthodox]

imma come for that ass boi

pause!!!!!!

 

[Lord Tywin]

pause!!!!!!

you twisted bro. Didn't mean it like that.

 

[Unorthodox]

you twisted bro. Didn't mean it like that.

CLEARLY lol but im not about to spamm your debate anymore

 

[EZQ]

Why are you brining this irrelevant stuff here? FOH

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[Apêx1]

We're doing 2 posts?

Ye

I agree with your explanation of Byakugan's insight and vision. However it still comes to your body being able to react. The same case as Sasuke vs Lee, or 2 tomoe Sasuke vs KM1 Naruto. Sasuke could see his opponent, but couldn't physically react to them. This is the case with Raikage vs Hiashi. Hiashi might be able to see raikage, but physically he wouldn't be able to react to him. One shortcoming of Byakugan is that it doesn't grant the user precognition, like Sharingan does. Byakugan user will have no problem seeing a sneak attack from an opponent comparable in speed. But what it can't do is let the user predict opponent's movement. In terms of precognition, Byakugan is no better than a normal eye. It lets you see around yourself, and lets you see the chakra network, or body's organs and bones. No precognition means the end of Hiashi against the Third. Naruto said this

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He needed SM to sense Raikage's attack. SM grants the user some kind of precognition, which again, Byakugan doesn't.

This all explains why if Hiashi won't physically react to Third. He might be able to see him, but he still won't be countering him.

Exactly. It comes down to your body being able to react. And if Dodai and Jugo reacted physically to v1 speed+, then Hiashi will do so easily. If Hiashi reacted to v2 Juubi tail then he's reacting to the nigh featless v1 speed that the Sandaime possesses. He's agile? Yes, he dodged FRS that was guided by chakra arms (making it slower), but even then, every 6POP dodged it apart from Animal Paths who's stationary. It's as simple as that. You keep telling me Hiashi lacks reaction feats but at the end of the day you're trying to attribute Ay's speed to Sandaime, when that's not the case. Naruto only ever said the Raikage's are all fast in the real translation, he didn't say they were equals or comparable. So now I ask you, what are the Sandaime's speed feats other then blitzing fodders? Dodai reacted easily to Sandaime speed, being a sensor does not grant pre-cognition like SM does, so don't even try to use that as an argument.
@bold Byakugan allows you to see chakra build up in the feet and it being expelled for high speed movement. So in that way, it is dramatically superior to the normal eye as the normal eye will only notice once you start moving, while the Byakugan will know before hand.
@underlined I suggest you improve your reading comprehension. Naruto said with Hermit Mode he'll be able to react at the very last second. That means he has the freedom of evading at any time, but chooses to do it at the last second so the Sandaime can't do anything about it in time. He says "with this it allows me to sense the enemy and dodge at the very last second." You said that means he needs it to react, but nowhere is that even implied. All that is implied is that it's needed for last second dodging, which isn't very surprising given Naruto's speed feats and reaction feats in base are horrendous and are portrayed as horrendous. I sincerely hope you don't think base Naruto is even in the same league as Hiashi. But anyways, Jugo reacted to v1 Ay's Shunshin, so that should've been the end of this debate anyways. He isn't a sensor nor can he see the chakra build up for Shunshin.

Dodai is known to be a sensor. He's part of the communication team.
There is also the case of Raikage being in mid air as well. Meaning that his speed wasn't constant, as the gravity is pulling him downward, and the his jump is losing its power and speed before he reached Naruto and Dodai.
It seems like you're reaching for Hiashi here. The cloud ninja that kidnapped Hinata was a fodder. We don't know anything about him. You're comparing the cloud ninja to Juugo and suigetsu, which is what laughable.

Raikage's true speed was shown when he was going head to head against SM Naruto.
Raikage was dodging KCM Naruto like nothing. This Naruto caught Muu off guard with Chakra arms, with one move at that. While Naruto had to use decoy and trickery to land a hit on Raikage.
Raikage was fast enough to dodge frs from point blank range

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And then came SM Naruto. His only chance was to beat him with SM's sensing, something Hiashi doesn't have.

Being a sensor doesn't mean anything though. It's been stated that you need to mould chakra to be sensing, and Kurama has told Minato in the past to switch to his sensory chakra. But assuming Dodai was sensing at that moment, I still don't see how that means anything since sensors don't possess any pre-cognition. That's exclusive to SM, learn the difference. Byakugan does the same thing sensing can do in terms of environmental intel, but has the added added advantage of anticipating the Shunshin. Raikage being in mid-air doesn't mean anything. Many people have been in mid-air in the past and every time gravity didn't matter.

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(makes no sense but this is a manga, stop trying to apply irl logic). Raikage Ay was repetitively shitting on Naruto despite him being mid-air, implying his speed is still considered 'top notch'. So fact remains that a falling Dodai could react to a jumping Sandaime by turning, using hand seals and releasing his jutsu before Sandaime could even close the distance [

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]. And don't forget Jugo reacting without the ability to anticipate Shunshin. Hiashi should be able to both react physically better then Jugo, and anticipate it better then Jugo due to his Byakugan and portrayal to be ~cloaked Hinata.

And nah, I'm not reaching. It was stated twice that he was the Cloud's Shinobi leader. That's enough for me to realise he's powerful, otherwise he wouldn't be a shinobi leader in the first place. And what the hell? I never compared cloud ninja to Suigetsu/Jugo. You're just twisting my words here to keep your argument alive. KCM Naruto's Shunshin was never dodged, stop making up your own feats lmfao. KCM Naruto's physical speed is not even good smh. Naruto caught Mu off guard because he didn't expect the speed acceleration through chakra arms while he was charging Jinton. Had he not been charging Jinton he wouldn't have been caught in the same way he wasn't caught by Gaara's sand when the Raikage was. And again, stop twisting manga. He only needed SM to hit Hiashi at the last second, nowhere is it implied that he needed it for anything else (he obviously had no other option to take down the Raikage since he doesn't have Jyuken).

you're telling me that all these random nobodies are on the level of Hiashi in terms of reaction?

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You even said Bee couldn't react, which in the scans I posted you see him not only reacting, he was fast enough to make a TBB.

You got baited pretty badly here. I was expecting this retarded argument. When Gai uses Gates, his reaction speed increases. He isn't moving faster then he can react. When he used 8G, his reaction speed increases once again, otherwise he wouldn't have been using EE at such speeds. When Bee uses v1 or v2, his reaction speed increases. If that wasn't the case, it would imply he can't react to his own speed, meaning he wouldn't be hitting anyone since he can't react to his own speed. When Naruto uses BM, he's capable of reacting to his own amazing Shunshin, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to react fast enough to hit the TBB's with his tails and slap them away like he did versus the 7 Bijuu (a page or so later you will see his tails missing in case you think he deflected them via Shunshin). When anyone gets a power-up, they power-up everything, not just physically. When Lee blitzed Madara, Lee was capable of kicking in time to cut Madara in half. Had he had his base reaction speed, he wouldn't have kicked because he wouldn't have reacted to his own speed. It's an absolutely ridiculous assertion to suggest the Kyuubi cloak wasn't the reason that all those 'nobodies' reacted to the Juubi. Mind you, a non-cloaked version gave Kakashi a 3x power boost. The Kyuubi cloak Hinata had was over 50x in power given the changes people had underwent, ie Lee blitzing, Akimichi's holding Juubi tail, Hinata going from 1 meter wide Air Palm that could barely reflect Juubi's Mokuton to Juubi tail level air palm. Please don't try to argue this again, because you have effectively gave me the ability to suggest Hiashi is about 50x the reaction speed of the likes of all those which received the Kyuubi cloak, easily fast enough to react to Sandaime Raikage. And what? I said Hachibi didn't react fast enough, as shown when he got slapped backwards along with the Kyuubi. It's a fact that he didn't react. A FACT. He only used TBB after he got smacked away smh. In case you missed it, looking at their mouths will indicate no TBB while their flying back. They only prep once they landed.

Now on your point about Kaiten
You see Neji coming to talk to Naruto

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Then Neji notices Juubi's hand coming behind Naruto.

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As you both Hiashi and Neji running behind Naruto.
Naruto was going to get blasted away because he didn't know the hands were coming for him, as the hands were coming from behind him. So once again, it seems like you're reaching.

What the hell? Do you not see everybody flying around and what not? It's releasing huge sound and everybody is screaming. If Naruto could react then he clearly would look, but that wasn't the case. Stop viewing this in such a narrow minded way. Hiashi and Neji ran towards it and then span at the moment it was next to them, meaning they could react to the Juubi tail's speed at the last moment, a speed far above Sandaime's.

Now for the cloak argument.

Strength doesn't correlate with reaction speed. JJ Madara is massively above Sasuke in terms of dc, but he was unable to counter amenotejikara. Naruto is far above Sasuke in dc, but he was still caught by amenotejikara. Strength has nothing to do with being able to react. The claok they received gave their techniques a boost. It didn't let them see better.

I already addressed this bullshit. Being caught by a teleportation jutsu implying a lack of reaction speed has to be the most retarded thing I have heard all week. Naruto and JJ Madara both can react to Sasuke's Shunshin without trouble. Reacting to his teleportation is irrelevant smh.

This will again come to whether Hiashi can react to Raikage, which he can't. I've showed above raikage's feats against KCM Naruto, and Naruto needing some kind of precognition to land a hit on Raikage. Byakugan has no such ability.

Kaiten isn't a guaranteed counter to hell stab either.

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Kaiten was shown to break with a great amount of force, which Raikage posses. Raikage will either run through it with his 1 finger hell stab, or will punch it, similar to what Naruto did. Raikage, being the tank he is, will feel nothing, while Hiashi will receive heavy damage.
Naruto vs Neji shows just how much a broken Kaiten deals damage to the user. Neji wasn't even hurt before his kaiten was broken. But after Naruto broke it, Neji went down with one punch, and couldn't even get up.

I have proven he can multiple times. Jugo did it, Dodai did it with no problem, Hiashi does it with 0 problems too. Hiashi reacted to the Juubi tail at the last second physically when he used Kaiten, reacting to Sandaime physically should be no problem either. You have shown me Sandaime dodging a chakra arm speed FRS, which, isn't very impressive. Naruto didn't need pre-cog to land a hit in general, he needed pre-cog to land a hit at the last second.
@bold, PLEASE quote me EVER saying that Kaiten will be used against Hell Stab. I beg it. You're a horrendous straw man smh. I only ever said Air Palm counters Hell Stab. Seems like you're trying to seem like you made a strong counter argument when in fact you are just saying irrelevant shit as I never even mentioned Kaiten.

I fully agree that raikage isn't immune to gentle fist. But raikage can escape anything Hiashi can offer with his far greater speed.
Gentle fist has shown to be used against stationary opponents.

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And by this I mean the whole thing. Nothing short of the whole thing would even phase the raikage. Having one or two of his chakra points blocked won't slow raikage down one bit. He'd just move back before Hiashi can pull off the whole thing.
Air palm is either side stepped, or tanked with little to no damage. Rasenshuriken was able to put tiny cracks on his edo body. Neji's air palm couldn't even make Kisame to make a discomforting remark, let alone hurt him

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Raikage's body is far far above 30% kisame or 100% kisame by feats. Air palm is more than useless here.

Uh what the hell? You do know Gentle Fist isn't only about closing Tenketsu right? You realise using Gentle Fist on the throat or heart will pretty much kill you with one hit? It's a fact that you have Tenketsu all around your body, it was compared to your heart and veins/arteries. There's chakra coils around your heart, throat, etc (all organs).

@bold This is just frustrating now. Not only do you straw man again but your reading comprehension fails you. How can you side step Air Palm when you don't even see it? How do you side step it when you don't know how large it is? How do you side step it when Hiashi can decide if it's 1 meter wide or 100 meters wide? How do you side step it when it's shown to reach the Juubi's tail at a speed comparable to the speed in which the tail travels? How do you side step it when both hands are used to cover varying angles/jump? This being a forest makes it ever so hard given Hiashi hiding and using his air palms from a hidden place will be a 100% hit, in which case he can Shunshin to Hiashi and use his Gentle Fist or another air palm and follow the strategy I outlined in my initial post. The damage it deals is irrelevant. The Raikage takes 0.0000 damage from it. But he still flies backwards because of how the jutsu works. Him being durable doesn't mean he doesn't fly back, his weight isn't changing due to his durability after all. Kisame was sent back by Neji's, so Hiashi sends back Sandaime in the same way. I'm just gonna laugh if you try and arguing he'll be able to dodge it, especially the first one which will be a 100% hit given no intel. He follows the outlined strategy in my initial post and it's game over.

However I have my doubts whether Jyuken can work here. Raikage's body is strong enough to survive light speed teleportation. For him to travel as fast as light, his particles have to change to light particles, meaning his entire molecular base is strong enough to be not turn into light particles. I doubt Jyuken can even displace a single molecule in raikage's body.

How tough his body is is irrelevant. Ay tanked it and he was pierced by Chidori. Stop applying physics to it since you keep losing arguments due to it. Jyuken affects him because it was stated that regardless of how tough you are, Jyuken still affects you by Kakashi. Learn to accept what Kishi says rather then try to find ways around it.

This technique ends hiashi sooner than it should. It isn't as fast as 64 hands, and Hiashi doesn't have reaction speed on par with SM Naruto to be able to counter raikage. Hiashi gets minced.

I have no idea what you are even trying to argue here. How does Twin Lion Fist being slower then 64 hands mean it won't hit? Especially given the dramatic range increase the Lion Fist grants. Please think through your arguments more carefully in your next post. Hiashi isn't getting touched here since Sandaime will be hit several times first before Sandaime even reaches Hiashi. CQC range still means Hiashi wins due to his 5 in Taijutsu.

Your strategy falls flat on its face when Raikage can easily side step Hiashi's air palm. It doesn't have the speed to remotely phase raikage. Even if he's hit and loses sight of Hiashi, it comes down to a battle of stamine, which raikage shit stomps Hiashi in it. With Raikage constantly moving around to look for Hiashi, and their huge gap between foot speed, Hiashi will have little luck trying to land a hit on raikage. Raikage will eventually find him.

1. This strategy is being used initially without intel, so it's a guaranteed first hit, the second hit is guaranteed since Sandaime can't dodge while looking away or getting up.

2. Shit stomping Hiashi in stamina doesn't mean anything. It will never come down to a battle of attrition because once Sandaime is hit by air palm, immediate follow-up implies Hiashi will have Sandaime's organ(s) destroyed and the fight brought to an end. Not that Raikage's stamina will outlast after several hits from the absorptive Twin Lion Fist. Hiashi having lesser foot speed doesn't mean he can't shit on Raikage in CQC, especially given his striking speed would be far superior to Raikage's.

Black lightning can come in handy for Raikage to see some of Hiashi's abilities. He can use it right off the bat and make Hiashi either counter with air palm or rotation, which will give their surprise factor away. If Hiashi uses air palm, Raikage will know to dodge the wind based attack next time, which he will know will be harmful to his lightning cloak. If he uses rotation, Raikage will know to not carelessly attack Hiashi straight on next time, and will play around the field to wait for the appropriate time to strike.

What I would like you to address thoroughly is Hiashi's reaction speed, and how he can effectively counter raikage's top speed.

Air Palm smacking away Black Lightning still ends up hitting Sandaime since it will be aimed in that direction. Without intel he's hit and the strategy I outlined in my opener will be in effect. It's not a wind btw, it's a shockwave. He can't dodge it because he can't see it. And again, Hiashi is never using Rotation in this fight, ever.

I have done so in my opener and in this post. Last second Kaiten, comparable to v1 cloaked Shinobi's despite its huge power-up (no cloak and small amount was still 3x, this is far above), smacking away the tail with Air Palm, Jugo and Dodai reacting to v1 speed, etc. That's more then enough.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Exactly. It comes down to your body being able to react. And if Dodai and Jugo reacted physically to v1 speed+, then Hiashi will do so easily. If Hiashi reacted to v2 Juubi tail then he's reacting to the nigh featless v1 speed that the Sandaime possesses. He's agile? Yes, he dodged FRS that was guided by chakra arms (making it slower), but even then, every 6POP dodged it apart from Animal Paths who's stationary. It's as simple as that. You keep telling me Hiashi lacks reaction feats but at the end of the day you're trying to attribute Ay's speed to Sandaime, when that's not the case. Naruto only ever said the Raikage's are all fast in the real translation, he didn't say they were equals or comparable. So now I ask you, what are the Sandaime's speed feats other then blitzing fodders? Dodai reacted easily to Sandaime speed, being a sensor does not grant pre-cognition like SM does, so don't even try to use that as an argument.

@Bold, you keep saying this, but you haven't proved it yet. Dodai and Jugo's feats doesn't have anything to do with Hiashi. It's their feat, not Hiashi's.
@underline, slap yourself. For the first time, FRS was used by chakra arms, then it was thrown by the arm

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This one was this close to raikage

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There is nothing there to differentiate the speed between frs being thrown by Naruto's own hands or chakra arms. Then there is this scan I posted again, which shows raikage dodging a thrown frs point blank.

As far as we know, Saindaime's raiton armor makes him as fast as V1 Ay. Once again, nothing for use to differentiate it from, so we're giving it Ay's feats, since they're shrouds are both the same in v1.
I've said it in my first post. Raikage, Naruto, and Dodai were all in mid air when Dodai reacted to him. Raikage busted the rock Dodai was standing on, and jumped up to reach them. It's far different than keeping his speed constant, like being on the ground.

@bold Byakugan allows you to see chakra build up in the feet and it being expelled for high speed movement. So in that way, it is dramatically superior to the normal eye as the normal eye will only notice once you start moving, while the Byakugan will know before hand.

Smh so how does this change the fact that it doesn't grant them some kind of precognition? They can't predict where the opponent is trying to go.

@underlined I suggest you improve your reading comprehension. Naruto said with Hermit Mode he'll be able to reactat the very last second. That means he has the freedom of evading at any time, but chooses to do it at the last second so the Sandaime can't do anything about it in time. He says "with this it allows me to sense the enemy and dodge at the very last second." You said that means he needs it to react, but nowhere is that even implied. All that is implied is that it's needed for last second dodging, which isn't very surprising given Naruto's speed feats and reaction feats in base are horrendous and are portrayed as horrendous. I sincerely hope you don't think base Naruto is even in the same league as Hiashi. But anyways, Jugo reacted to v1 Ay's Shunshin, so that should've been the end of this debate anyways. He isn't a sensor nor can he see the chakra build up for Shunshin.

Is this supposed to be ironic? Because you explained what I had in mind perfectly. Someone like Hiashi won't land a hit on Raikage without reacting at the last second. On the normal, Raikage is too fast to get hit by Hiashi, which Hiashi has to go head to head with him. When he doesn't have some kind of precognition, like SM Naruto, he won't be able to counter raikage at the very last second. Then raikage will counter Hiashi's immature movement accordingly.
Naruto's only choice was to hit Raikage at the very last second. This will be true for Hiashi as well. But no precognition>No last minute counter>Raikage seeing through Hiashi's movement>Minced Hiashi.
Then there is also Naruto reflecting back on Ay in his v1 when he faced the Third

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Further clue that the Third is as fast as v1 Ay

Being a sensor doesn't mean anything though. It's been stated that you need to mould chakra to be sensing, and Kurama has told Minato in the past to switch to his sensory chakra. But assuming Dodai was sensing at that moment, I still don't see how that means anything since sensors don't possess any pre-cognition. That's exclusive to SM, learn the difference. Byakugan does the same thing sensing can do in terms of environmental intel, but has the added added advantage of anticipating the Shunshin. Raikage being in mid-air doesn't mean anything. Many people have been in mid-air in the past and every time gravity didn't matter.

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(makes no sense but this is a manga, stop trying to apply irl logic). Raikage Ay was repetitively shitting on Naruto despite him being mid-air, implying his speed is still considered 'top notch'. So fact remains that a falling Dodai could react to a jumping Sandaime by turning, using hand seals and releasing his jutsu before Sandaime could even close the distance [

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]. And don't forget Jugo reacting without the ability to anticipate Shunshin. Hiashi should be able to both react physically better then Jugo, and anticipate it better then Jugo due to his Byakugan and portrayal to be ~cloaked Hinata.

It goes to you about the sensory argument.
It sounds dumb as hell for you to say just because Dodai was able to react to Raikage in mid air, Somebody else will do that on the ground, when the speed is constant. Fact.
How does any of the examples you've provided proved that Raikage, in mid air, still has the same speed as he does on the ground? He smashed the rock, which reduces his speed, as it acts like a cushion. You are grasping when you're saying Raikage didn't lose any speed in mid air.

And nah, I'm not reaching. It was stated twice that he was the Cloud's Shinobi leader. That's enough for me to realise he's powerful, otherwise he wouldn't be a shinobi leader in the first place. And what the hell? I never compared cloud ninja to Suigetsu/Jugo. You're just twisting my words here to keep your argument alive. KCM Naruto's Shunshin was never dodged, stop making up your own feats lmfao. KCM Naruto's physical speed is not even good smh. Naruto caught Mu off guard because he didn't expect the speed acceleration through chakra arms while he was charging Jinton. Had he not been charging Jinton he wouldn't have been caught in the same way he wasn't caught by Gaara's sand when the Raikage was. And again, stop twisting manga. He only needed SM to hit Hiashi at the last second, nowhere is it implied that he needed it for anything else (he obviously had no other option to take down the Raikage since he doesn't have Jyuken).

smh these two are shinobi leaders

Spoiler

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Does that mean they're strong?
This is what you said

The notion that people like Dodai and Jugo have even comparable reaction speed to a Byakugan user like Hiashi is laughable. He was confirmed far above that level when he 'quickly took care of the Cloud Shinobi leader' [

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] and was portrayed to be a god in front of Neji and Hinata.

"Hiashi is above the level of Jugo and Dodai when he quickly took care of Cloud shinobi leader". I'm not twisting shit here. You're implying Suigetsu or Dodai would have problem fighting the random fodder leader. I'm just bringing to light your outstanding logic.
Addressed the rest of this garbage

You got baited pretty badly here. I was expecting this retarded argument. When Gai uses Gates, his reaction speed increases. He isn't moving faster then he can react. When he used 8G, his reaction speed increases once again, otherwise he wouldn't have been using EE at such speeds. When Bee uses v1 or v2, his reaction speed increases. If that wasn't the case, it would imply he can't react to his own speed, meaning he wouldn't be hitting anyone since he can't react to his own speed. When Naruto uses BM, he's capable of reacting to his own amazing Shunshin, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to react fast enough to hit the TBB's with his tails and slap them away like he did versus the 7 Bijuu (a page or so later you will see his tails missing in case you think he deflected them via Shunshin). When anyone gets a power-up, they power-up everything, not just physically. When Lee blitzed Madara, Lee was capable of kicking in time to cut Madara in half. Had he had his base reaction speed, he wouldn't have kicked because he wouldn't have reacted to his own speed. It's an absolutely ridiculous assertion to suggest the Kyuubi cloak wasn't the reason that all those 'nobodies' reacted to the Juubi. Mind you, a non-cloaked version gave Kakashi a 3x power boost. The Kyuubi cloak Hinata had was over 50x in power given the changes people had underwent, ie Lee blitzing, Akimichi's holding Juubi tail, Hinata going from 1 meter wide Air Palm that could barely reflect Juubi's Mokuton to Juubi tail level air palm. Please don't try to argue this again, because you have effectively gave me the ability to suggest Hiashi is about 50x the reaction speed of the likes of all those which received the Kyuubi cloak, easily fast enough to react to Sandaime Raikage. And what? I said Hachibi didn't react fast enough, as shown when he got slapped backwards along with the Kyuubi. It's a fact that he didn't react. A FACT. He only used TBB after he got smacked away smh. In case you missed it, looking at their mouths will indicate no TBB while their flying back. They only prep once they landed.

This paragraph just told me you've never driven a car before. Have you drove in a highway in high speed, and see things move slower? This is the case with this argument. Let's say I'm driving 100 miles per hour. Everything else seems slower to me. My reaction speed hasn't changed, but just that because of the high speed I'm perceiving things slower. Reaction speed is a mental process. It's the time for your body to process the information it takes in from the environment, and makes sense out of it, and enables you to take action accordingly.
What the hell are you saying in bold?
You said first said Juubi's hands were too fast for Hachibi, and that he wasn't able to react to v1 Juubi.

Yet, we see the v1 Juubi attack so fast that BM Naruto, Hachibi and Kakashi could all not even see it (as noted by Kakashi himself)[

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]. And now we also remember.. That was the v1 Juubi which is exponentially weaker then the v2 Juubi.

Then we see Hachibi having no problem reacting to V2 Juubi's tails, having enough time to create a TBB. It destroys your argument on Hiashi's reaction feat(as you claim) of reacting to Juubi's v2 tails, and you saying Naruto and Bee couldn't react to V1 Juubi.

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What the hell? Do you not see everybody flying around and what not? It's releasing huge sound and everybody is screaming. If Naruto could react then he clearly would look, but that wasn't the case. Stop viewing this in such a narrow minded way. Hiashi and Neji ran towards it and then span at the moment it was next to them, meaning they could react to the Juubi tail's speed at the last moment, a speed far above Sandaime's.

smh Just stop. But let me spell out ever panel for you, since you're reaching this badly

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Neji comes to Naruto and starts talking to him. Naruto's back it towards the juubi. Then Neji notices something

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Neji sees the carnage behind Naruto due to Juubi. Naruto has no idea what's going on, hence the exclamation point.
Then Neji and Hiashi run towards the incoming hand.

Let me repeat it again. Naruto had no idea what was going on behind him. FACT. Overwanking simple things won't let you win the debate.

I already addressed this bullshit. Being caught by a teleportation jutsu implying a lack of reaction speed has to be the most retarded thing I have heard all week. Naruto and JJ Madara both can react to Sasuke's Shunshin without trouble. Reacting to his teleportation is irrelevant smh.

lmao Increase in strength=/=Increase in speed. You were blabbering about how the chakra cloak increased everything, which isn't true. Nothing to suggest it increased anything in SA regarding their speed and reaction time.

I have proven he can multiple times. Jugo did it, Dodai did it with no problem, Hiashi does it with 0 problems too. Hiashi reacted to the Juubi tail at the last second physically when he used Kaiten, reacting to Sandaime physically should be no problem either. You have shown me Sandaime dodging a chakra arm speed FRS, which, isn't very impressive. Naruto didn't need pre-cog to land a hit in general, he needed pre-cog to land a hit at the last second.
@bold, PLEASE quote me EVER saying that Kaiten will be used against Hell Stab. I beg it. You're a horrendous straw man smh. I only ever said Air Palm counters Hell Stab. Seems like you're trying to seem like you made a strong counter argument when in fact you are just saying irrelevant shit as I never even mentioned Kaiten.

I've posted scans of Raikage dodging a thrown FRS at point blank range. Enough said.
When in the hell did I imply you said anything like the bold? I was merely giving you some proof why Kaiten isn't a guaranteed counter. Never implied what you think I was trying to say.
We should remove the X from your name, as it describes you better. And the irony is that you're calling me a strawman, when you're overwanking Hiashi's feats.

"Oh Dodai did it to an airborne Raikage, then it means Hiashi can pull it off with raikage on ground". SMH

Uh what the hell? You do know Gentle Fist isn't only about closing Tenketsu right? You realise using Gentle Fist on the throat or heart will pretty much kill you with one hit? It's a fact that you have Tenketsu all around your body, it was compared to your heart and veins/arteries. There's chakra coils around your heart, throat, etc (all organs).

ok

@bold This is just frustrating now. Not only do you straw man again but your reading comprehension fails you. How can you side step Air Palm when you don't even see it? How do you side step it when you don't know how large it is? How do you side step it when Hiashi can decide if it's 1 meter wide or 100 meters wide? How do you side step it when it's shown to reach the Juubi's tail at a speed comparable to the speed in which the tail travels? How do you side step it when both hands are used to cover varying angles/jump? This being a forest makes it ever so hard given Hiashi hiding and using his air palms from a hidden place will be a 100% hit, in which case he can Shunshin to Hiashi and use his Gentle Fist or another air palm and follow the strategy I outlined in my initial post. The damage it deals is irrelevant. The Raikage takes 0.0000 damage from it. But he still flies backwards because of how the jutsu works. Him being durable doesn't mean he doesn't fly back, his weight isn't changing due to his durability after all. Kisame was sent back by Neji's, so Hiashi sends back Sandaime in the same way. I'm just gonna laugh if you try and arguing he'll be able to dodge it, especially the first one which will be a 100% hit given no intel. He follows the outlined strategy in my initial post and it's game over.

This is where black lightning comes in handy. Raikage uses it, makes Hiashi use air palm. Now Hiashi has no idea how durable raikage is, so he will use his normal air palm. The one he used against Juubi is performed with 2 hands, thus the power behind it. Raikage either sees the air palm devouring black lightning, and gets hit with the air palm, or he gets out of the vicinity of the blast, having previously seen his lightning getting nullified by the air palm.
If he gets hit, he would barely be pushed back by a normal air palm. Next time Hiashi decides to use Air Palm, Rakage sees Hiashi's hands, and will get out of the way. Hiashi isn't fast enough to escape Raikage's line of sight.

Also your strategy is countered by Raikage moving around constantly, if Hiashi successfully gets out of Raikage's line of sight. Hiashi is vastly inferior in terms of movement, and he will have no luck on landing a hit on a moving raikage. Then it comes to the battle of stamina.

How tough his body is is irrelevant. Ay tanked it and he was pierced by Chidori. Stop applying physics to it since you keep losing arguments due to it. Jyuken affects him because it was stated that regardless of how tough you are, Jyuken still affects you by Kakashi. Learn to accept what Kishi says rather then try to find ways around it.

sure

I have no idea what you are even trying to argue here. How does Twin Lion Fist being slower then 64 hands mean it won't hit? Especially given the dramatic range increase the Lion Fist grants. Please think through your arguments more carefully in your next post. Hiashi isn't getting touched here since Sandaime will be hit several times first before Sandaime even reaches Hiashi. CQC range still means Hiashi wins due to his 5 in Taijutsu.

Dramatic range? You done speaking out the ass?

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Hiashi ain't touching Raikage with this. Not with raikage charging at him at full speed, and no precognition from Hiashi to counter him effectively.

1. This strategy is being used initially without intel, so it's a guaranteed first hit, the second hit is guaranteed since Sandaime can't dodge while looking away or getting up.

2. Shit stomping Hiashi in stamina doesn't mean anything. It will never come down to a battle of attrition because once Sandaime is hit by air palm, immediate follow-up implies Hiashi will have Sandaime's organ(s) destroyed and the fight brought to an end. Not that Raikage's stamina will outlast after several hits from the absorptive Twin Lion Fist. Hiashi having lesser foot speed doesn't mean he can't shit on Raikage in CQC, especially given his striking speed would be far superior to Raikage's.

1. Or that raikage uses black lightning and ruins your strategy by seeing air palm.
2. Which won't happen with Raikage constantly moving around at high speed to find Hiashi. He needs to caught up to him first.
Your entire basis of argument is Hiashi pulling out the first move, and then sneak attacking raikage. The first move is countered by black lightning, or if Hiashi pulls it off, Raikage's foot speed prevents Hiashi from reaching him and pulling a sneak attack. And if he gets found out, the it will even make it easier of raikage. He will know to move out of the path of Hiashi's hands.

Air Palm smacking away Black Lightning still ends up hitting Sandaime since it will be aimed in that direction. Without intel he's hit and the strategy I outlined in my opener will be in effect. It's not a wind btw, it's a shockwave. He can't dodge it because he can't see it. And again, Hiashi is never using Rotation in this fight, ever.

And now you say it's not wind. There is no guarantee that Air Palm can over power Black lightning in a direct contact. Shockwaves aren't lightning's natural weakness. Hiashi pulls off an Air palm with one hand, and raikage meets it with a black panther. Raikage might even overpower the air palm.

I have done so in my opener and in this post. Last second Kaiten, comparable to v1 cloaked Shinobi's despite its huge power-up (no cloak and small amount was still 3x, this is far above), smacking away the tail with Air Palm, Jugo and Dodai reacting to v1 speed, etc. That's more then enough.

Nothing more to say about this.

Judges(If there are any :lol) can do their work now.

 

[Apêx1]

Anyone want to judge? Debate is pretty short anyways.

 

[KidGamer65]

What if I were to judge this?

 

[KidGamer65]

Actually, I forgot, no contestants are allowed to judge.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Actually, I forgot, no contestants are allowed to judge.

I don't think anyone will care anymore about the rules. :lol

 

[Rιver]

Forget this debate guys new thing is here and it's, Za Warudo!!!!!!

Toki wo tomare!! Muda muda muda muda mudaaa!!!!