KidGamer65 (Itachi) vs Beans2 (SM Jiraiya)
- Thread starter Beans2
- Start date
Alright bro you could be the tiebreaker if we need one.
How else is it supposed to be judged?
Unorthodox
Active member
This thread will be judged the day KingHashirama makes a good post, FemmeFatale uses her brain before posting, and i change my avatar.
Zabuza>Darui btw
And the day zetsu pierces a Jubi jin super durable body with just his hands... oh wait
Zabuza>Darui btw
Ambivalence
Active member
Do so, please, there aren't any other announced judges, so Ice can still write his verdict after yours.
Unorthodox
Active member
1. It's*
2. You can say "Legend says," child.
And then they find another judge if each judge votes for a different debater? No thx jeff
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Beans' First Post
Intro: Using MS with Susanoo
I agree that if amaterasu is used with a V2 susanoo or higher, it will cause his susanoo to get dispelled allowing Jiraiya or his toads to take him out. Not entirely sure whether he can use Tsukuyomi while maintaining a ribcage susanoo. You said Jiraiya can manipulate his hair to shoot needles in every direction which is possible and will probably result in Itachi getting overwhelmed after a while as he can't dodge forever. If Jiraiya uses a stronger katon, wouldn't it cause the oil to turn into fire hence it won't even be Goemon anymore? Then you went on to overrate toad oil flame bomb, in no way shape or form is that damaging a V2 susanoo. Not entirely convinced that a COR would destroy V2 susanoo because Itachi's V2 susanoo>>>>>Madara's ribcage and the gap is bigger than SM Jiraiya's COR and base Naruto's COR. I do believe it would moderately damage Itachi's V2 susanoo though. I do agree that another COR to the same spot would bust through his susanoo and probably kill Itachi.
Countering Itachi's Moveset
Katon/Suiton: Agreed 100%.
Clones: Solid counter.
Genjutsu: Decent counter. It still takes time to sense the genjutsu's effect and then break it. Also you have to keep in mind that trying to take preventative measures can open Jiraiya up to other attacks in Itachi's arsenal. Also amaterasu's chakra build up doesn't apply to Tsukiyomi. Shadow clone feints are a problem for Itachi though.
Amaterasu: Itachi can prep amaterasu beforehand as I've told you a million times so Jiraiya won't know at what moment amaterasu will be released after it is prepped. Though let's see if KG catches up on this. Not sure whether Jman can escape Itachi's LoS and him escaping Pain's LoS doesn't mean a healthy Itachi's LoS will be escaped. Why will Itachi not follow up on Jiraiya's shunshin?
Yasaka Magatamas: Agreed.
Susanoo: You were talking about Jiraiya using COR but now you are claiming he is going to take Itachi out at medium or long range. Nice Jiraiya speed feats BTW.
How Jiraiya kills Itachi
Strategy 1: Not convinced that the barrier toad will be able to emerge out of the swamp again.
Strategy 2: This is a much better strategy which can work. Once frog call is used, things go downhill for Itachi from there. Itachi does have susanoo which he can use to pull himself out but Itachi's options are limited when he's paralysed. FCD on top of all that seals the deal.
KidGamer's First Post
Tsukiyomi Backlash
You claim amaterasu is more taxing than Tsukiyomi by feats but I don't see any comparisons from you to prove that this is true. While you are correct that a healthy Itachi can use Tsukuyomi without kneeling down, Beans is trying to say that in the same fight with sick Itachi, Itachi showed worse drawback with Tsukiyomi than amaterasu so his claim has more proof. It is true that Zetsu was surprised that Itachi fell to the floor but that isn't necessarily because it got broken but it could be because of his disease which Zetsu did not know about. You said Itachi can easily use Tsukuyomi with susanoo on but failed to mention which susanoo he'd be using.
Kebari senbon
You pointed out that Jiraiya can't change the hair faster than the senbons are fired out but that shouldn't matter when this is a continuous stream of senbons that could be sprayed at Itachi's position as he's changing it. I do agree that a full susanoo isn't even needed as even a susanoo arm would suffice and wouldn't have much of a drawback.
Goemon
You misinterpreted Beans' modified Goemon. He isn't saying that there will be no oil but that the oil will be spit out by Ma instead whereas Jiraiya will be using the flame. Regardless you countered the jutsu fairly well and demonstrated that Itachi would move out of the way ASAP before he gets submerged. I agree that toad oil flame bomb is a non factor and will allow Itachi to take out Bunta via the cover offered by the flames.
Chou Odama Rasengan
KG agreed with Beans that COR would do heavy damage to V2 susanoo. You said that Goemon would do negligible damage to V2 susanoo although if you agree that COR does heavy damage on its own, a susanoo softened up with Goemon should be obliterated. KG showed that Itachi can hit Jiraiya away if he tries COR and even if he does get hit, he'll get sent flying back like Minato and Naruto did against Juubito. KG also showed that Jiraiya hasn't shown that he can use two CORs so there is a gap in between the two. Based on the Kurama example, I agree that V3 susanoo tanks COR with little damage.
Continuously using susanoo VS using and dropping it
Beans suggested that erecting susanoo over and over again will take more chakra but KG says maintaining it will take more chakra. I agree with Beans but neither of you actually proved the other wrong. For now, I'll assume they are equally chakra taxing as each other. My argument in favour of Beans is that erecting susanoo forces you to use a lot of chakra to erect it because erecting something from nothing over and over again is much harder than erecting it once and then maintaining it. Beans didn't use the simple building analogy which would have easily allowed him to prove his point but instead used assumptions much like KG.
Clones
While Beans suggested Jiraiya would mow down the clones easily with Kebari senbon, KG showed that Itachi feinted DSM Kabuto. You pointed out that Itachi can distinguish Jiraiya's clones from the original because he can't see three separate signatures but you fail to realize that Jiraiya with Ma and Pa are a fusion so their chakra should blend together.
Genjutsu
I agree that the brief second or two where Jiraiya is caught in the genjutsu will allow Itachi to finish him off. I also agree there won't be any noticeable chakra buildup for Jiraiya to sense.
Amaterasu
Pointed out that the dust cloud is a fuuton which would actually get engulfed by amaterasu easily. He also debunked Beans' claim that Jiraiya can escape Itachi's LoS. KidGamer also mentioned that Jiraiya being able to sense its preptime doesn't matter because when released, Itachi can adjust his eyesight.
Susanoo
KG mentioned that YMs are still a threat to Jiraiya because he can fire at Jiraiya after COR runs out. I'm not buying KG's argument that Itachi can use his max shunshin. You said that chakra is focussed in the feet but how can you say max chakra can be focussed in the feet while maintaining susanoo? Susanoo might be heavy or it might not but I know for a fact I can't run at full speed with a backpack on me. Even then, I'd get tired easily so wouldn't Itachi running around in susanoo get tired easily? I'll wait to hear Beans' argument. Beans claimed that a short distance was covered but you said it doesn't really matter despite that shunshin feat something which Itachi/Sasuke can pull off with a small fraction of their full shunshin. The blindsiding feat of nagato, on the other hand, is a good one and with this I can agree that Nagato isn't getting blindsided by a gimped Itachi.
Countering Beans' strategy 1
I agree that Jiraiya can't simply emerge out of Yomi Numa for the reasons you said. This ruins Beans' strategy.
Countering Beans' strategy 2
You said susanoo would throw Itachi out of the mud but this gives Jiraiya the opening to finish him off. Suiton or katon isn't a good counter either as he won't be able to weave the hand seals. I do agree that Itachi can anticipate and evade the sound waves. I don't agree with Yomi Numa's pulling speed to be slow because there was a lot of artwork in between the two pages. I agree that Frog Call isn't lasting longer than its maximum amount of time used. I agree that by hovering at the top of susanoo it will take some time for Itachi to sink and that he can move again after frog call runs out but frog call can be used again.
Itachi finishing Jiraiya off
KG mentioned how Jiraiya attacking Itachi in CQC with a COR is a death sentence for Jiraiya. Widespread katon is easily tanked by susanoo and allows Itachi to have cover. Shadow clones can be distinguished due to lacking Ma and Pa and won't be as strong as the original Jiraiya. Not to mention amaterasu sweep can take them all out.
Beans' Last Post
Itachi's chakra reserves
Beans highlighted that Itachi's usage of Tsukiyomi against Kakashi happened before the other two uses of the MS allowing him to recover his chakra. You claim that Itachi didn't cut his chakra in half after using an exploding kage bunshin but the evidence you brought was weak such as Itachi using Tsukiyomi right afterwards. All that says is that 50% Itachi can use Tsukuyomi. The clone was never dispelled, it exploded. I do agree that it doesn't seem likely that Itachi would use up half his chakra on Kurenai but then again, didn't Kakashi use up half his chakra on Asura path?
Tsukiyomi being more taxing than amaterasu
Your argument of Tsukiyomi being more chakra taxing than amaterasu is solid. You did refute KG's claim that the backlash of the genjutsu being broken doesn't make sense or else Itachi would have been in two different genjutsu worlds when he freed Sasuke from sound genjutsu. The case of Izanami was also brought up proving that the genjutsu caster isn't maintaining their genjutsu so what happens afterwards shouldn't effect the caster. It was pointed out that Zetsu was surprised because Sasuke got back up and not because Itachi fainted. Nevertheless Beans agreed that Tsukiyomi can be used by a healthy Itachi without him collapsing on his knees but regardless, it was proven that Tsukiyomi is more taxing than amaterasu. There wasn't solid proof that Itachi can't use Tsukiyomi without ribcage susanoo though.
Kebari senbon
Both Beans and KG came to the conclusion that Itachi would need at least a susanoo arm to survive. Beans suggested that amaterasu is countered by firing off needles and that Tsukiyomi is too taxing to use while maintaining a susanoo arm although I'm not wholly convinced.
Goemon
You clarified what you meant by modified Yomi Numa but your explanation in it being hotter might actually turn the oil into fire thus turning it into a katon which would do no damage.
You used Yomi Numa as a sure way of making sure Itachi gets doused by it. You used the fact that Jiraiya can hide his hand seal to prevent Itachi from anticipating it.
Beans ended up admitting that toad oil flame bullet would be useless but work against Jiraiya/Bunta.
Chou Odama Rasengan
KG already agreed COR does heavy damage to V2 susanoo but pointed out that Goemon only did negligible damage, however, Beans corrected him by pointing out that Itachi's V2 is weaker than Madara's by showcasing that Madara's V2 was thicker. He also demonstrated that susanoo would become less durable after taking Goemon allowing COR to plow through completely. Beans pointed out that rasengan's explosion would help Jiraiya as opposed to Itachi because Jiraiya getting pushed back gives him distance once Itachi brings out his V3, which is Jiraiya's main goal to prevent Itachi from using amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.
Susanoo chakra drainage
Beans suggested that if turning susanoo on and off helped conserve chakra, it would have been done in the manga by Sasuke or Madara which is a weak argument but still a plausible one. Beans used the fact that Sasuke couldn't upgrade to V2 against Mei despite maintaining it while rested but I don't see how this proves his point because a rested Sasuke has more chakra than the one who fought Mei.
Itachi's clone feints
Three heads being better than one is a pretty good counter as it is unlikely that all three will be feinted at the same time.
Genjutsu
I don't get how Fukasaku and Shima counter Amaterasu. Not convinced that amaterasu can not follow shortly after genjutsu. I do agree that Jiraiya won't get caught based on him being able to follow susanoo movements, susanoo being partially opaque and Jiraiya's ability to fight at mid-long range. Also as the fight prolongs, Itachi's vision worsens.
Smokescreens
Beans countered KG's strategy where he has Itachi close the distance to see through the smokescreen by using COR. Beans showed how it takes time to prep Tsukiyomi where chakra is being used to prepare the genjutsu.
Jiraiya's shadow clones
Beans agreed that Jman's clones aren't much of a factor except if Jiraiya wants to use more than one jutsu at a time.
Dust cloud
I'm pretty sure that Temari never hit amaterasu when attacking the samurai armour. There being less amaterasu on the samurai after she uses her fuuton is definitely a drawing error. Beans countered KG's use of a potential dust explosion. Beans pointed out that if katon or amaterasu was used on the dust cloud, it would take some time to burn it all which would allow Jiraiya to shunshin backwards.
Amaterasu
You said that Jiraiya would exit to the treeline but wouldn't Itachi follow up on Jiraiya to prevent him from escaping? Your other counter to amaterasu is even more fishy considering the force comes from Jiraiya's feet, not anywhere else such as his face.
Susanoo
I agree that whenever Itachi preps YMs, Jiraiya can use COR.
I can agree that susanoo should be heavy based on it being a large and durable structure. The Baku suction point might not work because susanoo was anchoring itself. I agree that if susanoo is light, Jiraiya would smack it around like a ragdoll so good for you in using KG's point against him.
I also agree that we don't know when exactly Itachi utilised susanoo.
Strategy 1
1. No proof that Yomi Numa can be undone. For that to happen, Jiraiya has to turn the swamp back into rock but he doesn't have the jutsu to do that.
2. How does the toad or the Jiraiya clone know when to summon? If you are talking about from within the barrier toad, how exactly do they summon it to outside the swamp when they themselves are underneath it?
3. Would that really work in a practical manner? Ma and Pa wouldn't be able to breathe in the swamp and the whole prep is ruined.
4. I guess this can work unless the boss toad is already being used to fight Itachi.
I agree with your counters for YMs even if they are temporary. I agree that amaterasu can be sealed away by the Jiraiya clone if used against any of the boss summons. Not sure where you got four boss summons from when Jiraiya only had three at the time of his death.
Strategy 2
I agree that the dust cloud can prevent Itachi from seeing hand seals which means he can't anticipate either Yomi Numa or Frog call. You pointed out that Itachi can't weave hand seals when he is paralysed. You also pointed out how KG's strategy of throwing Itachi out of his susanoo to avoid Yomi Numa allows Jiraiya to finish Itachi off. I agree with your argument in regards to whether Yomi Numa can pull in opponents against gravity.
Chou Odama Rasengan VS Susanoo
I agree that the explosion of COR provides Jiraiya cover to counter amaterasu or any other attack and retreat. Not entirely sure how the rasengan user has timing on when the rasengan explodes. Pretty sure it explodes if it hits the susanoo though. I agree that KG's strategy of Itachi closing the distance to grab Jiraiya with susanoo is useless with the usage of COR.
KidGamer's final post
Itachi's Chakra Reserves
KG ended up agreeing with Beans' suggestion that Itachi had a breather in between his confrontation with Kakashi and Sasuke back in part one. I agree that his stamina is not as bad due to being able to run away right after using two MS back to back. You pointed out that Itachi didn't dispel the clone so he should have lost half his chakra.
Tsukiyomi backlash
You convinced me that Itachi only suffered the drawback after Sasuke broke the genjutsu and not while it was being prepped. Although I'm not convinced that the strain of amaterasu is greater than Tsukiyomi, if anything it depends on the amount of amaterasu used. You should just claim that healthy Itachi has better chakra control compared to the Sasuke who fought Raikage so Tsukiyomi can indeed be used while inside ribcage susanoo.
Needle Jizou
It seems like you agree that needle jizou is a viable counter to amaterasu. I agree amaterasu and Tsukiyomi can be used while maintaining a ribcage susanoo.
Goemon
Beans already explained why Jiraiya's Dai Endan is far hotter than Ma's fire in his first post. I agree that the wind makes the oil not turn into fire. The wind is cooling the oil just as fire is burning the oil so the oil doesn't burst into flames. Not to mention Shima's katon wasn't being enhanced by Pa's fuuton as they weren't directly in touch. I agree that Itachi can see through a smoke cloud but not a dust cloud. If Itachi focusses on Yomi Numa, he won't know when exactly Goemon will be used. You are wrong that they'll have to be used at the same time. If Yomi Numa traps Itachi, then Jiraiya can follow up with Goemon. Not to mention if Itachi dodges Goemon, Jiraiya can follow up with Yomi Numa right afterwards and then use Yomi Numa again. Though I agree that Itachi can simply tank with V2 or V3 susanoo. In the end KG ended up agreeing that V2 susanoo would get busted by COR after a follow up goemon to weaken it.
Susanoo
KG argued that maintaining susanoo is more chakra taxing because of the duration of time but ended up agreeing with Beans that continuously putting up susanoo over and over again would be even more chakra taxing.
Clones
KG ended up agreeing that Itachi making clones wasn't a wise idea.
Genjutsu
KG is now saying he isn't going to use genjutsu in his argument but I do agree that if it lands, Itachi can follow up with Amaterasu. Not sure how Itachi can snatch Jiraiya with susanoo just like that.
Dust Cloud
KG agreed with Beans that Jiraiya can retreat and escape any katon or amaterasu attempt but claimed that Jiraiya can't use it for whatever strategy he was going to use it for. I disagree with this because Itachi using katon or amaterasu on the cloud will whip up an even bigger cloud so Jiraiya has ample time to cast Yomi Numa or whatever he wants without Itachi noticing.
Amaterasu
I agree that Jiraiya can't retreat into the forest before amaterasu is used and even if he does, he'll have to come out or else suffer from suffocation. I agree that Jiraiya making a smoke cloud via shunshin is a horrible counter to amaterasu.
Susanoo's weight
The barbell example was just a comparison Beans wanted to draw out but you are right that Naruto characters are physically very strong. Beans point is that even if one is strong enough to anchor themselves, their body would still get pulled towards the suction making it so that the body is no longer upright. Beans already stated that a large knight of condensed chakra ought to have a good amount of weight. Not to mention if Itachi's susanoo is light, Jiraiya would be able to smack it around like a ragdoll.
Susanoo's Speed
I'm not really sure where is the proof that Itachi used susanoo before he got to Nagato's location. Pretty sure the dust cloud could be made even if Itachi moved without susanoo and he can activate susanoo with whatever pose he wants. The susanoo speed feat against Kabuto was of a short distance but I guess that 10 m distance is similar to the one Hebi Sasuke covered against Deidara. Though how did you come to the realization that a very short time time passed?
Strategy 1
1. I agree there is no undoing Yomi Numa.
2. I agree that Itachi would shit on Jiraiya without the support of the elder toads. I also agree that since clones can't telepathically communicate, Jiraiya doesn't know when the genjutsu is prepped.
3. I agree that the hair isn't pulling Jiraiya out of his adhesive swamp.
4. YN being stronger doesn't matter when Jiraiya can obviously use a weaker one.
Not sure how the toads not having the same durability matters considering the shield Onoki and Gaara used considering the shield was pretty much intact and only suffered minor damage. I do agree that Itachi can hit their vitals but you didn't counter the fact that they can use their swords and shields to block/parry them.
You state that amaterasu sweep would be used against the boss summons but then went on to say that amaterasu won't be used against the toads.
I agree that genjutsu will be very effective against the boss toads allowing Itachi to take them out with YMs.
Strategy 2
Even if Itachi is in midair after being thrown out of the swamp's AoE, you countered Itachi's vulnerability by using susanoo hand. Also you showed that Yomi Numa can be countered again before Itachi falls by hardening it with katon.
Didn't dust cloud work against the Rinnegan which can also see chakra? Regardless sharingan has perceived through walls which the Rinnegan hasn't.
I agree that Jiraiya can't time a COR explosion.
Smokescreens from katon would be taken advantage of by Itachi but why are you claiming Itachi wouldn't use clones but now he uses them?
Summary
KG's strong points
He used amaterasu very effectively and persuaded me that amaterasu would end up taking Jiraiya down. He also countered the usage of smokescreens from Jiraiya and used them to Itachi's advantage in taking down boss summons. He persuaded me that Tsukiyomi drawback is worse when it is broken. KG also persuaded me that Jiraiya can't escape Yomi Numa so him entering it to prep frog song wasn't a good idea. KG also demonstrated that Jiraiya entering into close combat with susanoo will be his downfall.
KG's weak points
Made a contradiction on whether amaterasu will be used against boss summons or not. I got confused when he said it will be but then said it won't be. Ended up not using genjutsu but made a huge case defending genjutsu when he didn't even intend to use it in his argument. Made me waste time reading about genjutsu when you weren't even going to use it. Didn't really give speed feats from Itachi and just said Itachi would dodge Yomi Numa and other attacks without explaining how.
Beans' strong points
Firmly established how Jiraiya can force Itachi into using V3 susanoo. Destroyed any attempt at Itachi using genjutsu or Jiraiya getting clone feinted. Brought some nice speed feats to showcase Jiraiya's speed. I also agreed with Beans in regards to susanoo's weight considering its a large immensely durable construct which can in no way shape or form be light. Also a good example showcasing its weight was brought up. Furthermore, if susanoo is light, it allows Jiraiya to smack it around.
Beans' weak points
Made too many assumptions such as Jiraiya undoing Yomi Numa or Ma and Pa being able to use frog call for longer. Beans said Jiraiya would use COR to force Itachi to erect a V3 but then claimed he'd fight at long range. Beans mentioned clones but failed to use them effectively. To counter amaterasu, he used the largest delay that prepping amaterasu has been through. He also ended up claiming that using shunshin would cause amaterasu to get repelled like ST.
Overall in terms of how the fight plays out based on this particular debate, I see Itachi winning. Beans' strategy 1 doesn't work because Jiraiya isn't emerging out of the swamp due to multiple reasons such as Jiraiya clone not knowing when the genjutsu is prepped or because Itachi can take out the clone. Strategy 2 was pretty good but even if Itachi gets caught by Yomi Numa or frog call, Itachi can throw himself out of the swamp and use ribcage susanoo to defend himself from any long range attack in Jiraiya's arsenal. As for CQC, Jiraiya attacking Itachi with a COR spells his end because Itachi can hit him away before much like Madara did to SM Naruto. The explosion from COR might push Jiraiya back but it still leaves him defenceless for a follow up amaterasu. Beans ended up using the dust cloud to cloud Itachi's LoS but after KG found out that the dust cloud itself contains no chakra, he pointed out that it won't so amaterasu can still be used. Overall the complex strategies that Beans used didn't allow him to beat Itachi whereas a simple amaterasu from Itachi's side would end Jiraiya based on the way the arguments were presented.
All in all KidGamer is the victor.
Well, that's some wall.
We can't say you didn't read the debate lol.
I guess i'll try to stick to this type of veredict when i judge. It's great ice, congrats. Tough i can't say i agree on your veredict because i didn't read the arguments, i totally agree on the way you judged each one of them.
We can't say you didn't read the debate lol.
I guess i'll try to stick to this type of veredict when i judge. It's great ice, congrats. Tough i can't say i agree on your veredict because i didn't read the arguments, i totally agree on the way you judged each one of them.
Thanks to Icelerate for sifting through all those walls of text and doing a accurate post-by-post analysis which reflected how deeply you read into the debate. Everyone should rep this guy, probably took him a lot of time to read the debate and write his judgment.
There is one part of your judgment which I don't agree with though, and I'm bringing it up because I want to understand your reasoning for it (it wouldn't change the verdict though based on the way you judged the arguments.)
You completely discounted my offensive strategy #1 because you said Jiraiya can't escape Yomi Numa. This is false as my plan of Jiraiya summoning a boss toad in the swamp to disperse the mud and push Jiraiya above ground is legit and you even agreed to that.
KG countered that premise with this:
In the final summary you wrote this:
And SM Jiraiya has three boss toads at his disposal plus Gamakichi so that's not an issue. You used the exact same argument of Tsunade summoning Katsuyu to push herself above Yomi Numa when I debated Jiraiya vs Tsunade with you.
KG countered that premise with this:
I couldn't counter this since I had no posts left. However the bold doesn't matter when Jiraiya can just make the summoning jutsu hand seals when they're inside the barrier toad, then as Jiraiya
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and touches his hand to the mud to summon. The rest is irrelevant because Jiraiya doesn't have to make a full powered Yomi Numa to make him sink way deep into the swamp, and it doesn't matter if the toad get sunk because its only purpose is to push Jiraiya above the swamp upon it being summoned.In the final summary you wrote this:
So...while this doesn't change your verdict because Amaterasu was the game changer, I don't get why you were so quick to write off this strategy when it seems legit. Jiraiya can beat several opponents this way who he can't normally beat, such as the Third Raikage.
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