KidGamer65 (Itachi) vs Beans2 (SM Jiraiya)
- Thread starter Beans2
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Wait. Moments later? In the time elapsed between those two events (5 chapters) Itachi fully recovered at that point and taken a "breather" as you called it. Those two uses of Tsukuyomi aren't even comparable. In that arc Sasuke was limited to two uses of chidori without CM which he
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, but then
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versus Itachi proving that enough time had passed to where chakra was recovered. So no, Itachi was never a stamina guy even in Pt. 1. He needed a breather after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu once each.Itachi didn't cut his chakra in half when he detonated his exploding clone. Not when he used Tsukuyomi immediately afterward. Would Itachi throw away half his chakra just to kill Kurenai, when his objective wasn't to fight in a battle which he said was
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? I doubt it. When clones are dispelled by the user, the chakra returns to the original as seen with SM Naruto. The chakra in the kage bunshin probably returned to Itachi upon detonation.I'll agree with the Mei bit. Moving on...
How can you say Tsukuyomi's backlash is increased when broken by the target? Once Itachi casts genjutsu on the target, it's over. He's used it. Just like any jutsu in the manga, countering it after it's already been used doesn't change the impact on the caster.
Example A: Sasuke and Itachi remain under genjutsu even after Kabuto
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and therefore not "maintaining" the genjutsu in any sense.Example B: Kabuto stays in Izanami even after Edo Itachi returned to the Pure World [
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].Unless you are saying, that with Tsukuyomi Itachi is maintaining the genjutsu the whole time his target is under its effect. Which is not the case otherwise Itachi would be in two different genjutsu worlds at the same time [
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].Zetsu was surprised that Sasuke wasn't collapsed on the ground because he didn't expect that Sasuke would break the genjutsu, that's it. Not sure why you're using Zetsu's reaction as evidence that the backlash was caused by Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi, especially since we don't know if Zetsu even knows about Tsukuyomi's side effects. He
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because he just saw Sasuke fall to the ground
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.So yes Itachi fell to the ground because sick Itachi can't use Tsukuyomi without collapsing, which is why I can compare it to sick Itachi's feats with Amaterasu. Not saying Itachi can't use Tsuku without keeling over tho.
1. Being able to use Tsukuyomi without collapsing isn't proof he can use it with Susanoo.
2. He still experienced
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even if we don't take into account the fact that he keeled over. In the same fight after he used Tsukuyomi, he used Amaterasu five times [
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][
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] then used his
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[
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] but didn't show backlash like he did with Tsukuyomi. Unless you count
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as backlash (which is a different condition entirely).3. No where did you actually give proof that Amaterasu is more taxing than Tsukuyomi. Evidence shows the contrary. Itachi went blind in his right eye after using the Mangekyo for Amaterasu 5+ times. He went blind in his left eye after using Tsukuyomi once, and holding up Susanoo for a few seconds to block Kirin.
Itachi still can't evade the needles if Jiraiya employs the strategy I'm using. He needs to block.
@Bold, that's exactly what I said originally. Read my statement again. Jiraiya can either use
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or manipulate his hair in some other way so that the needles are fired in every direction. If Itachi uses Susanoo to block, he can't use Tsukuyomi without intense strain on his eyes, if he can at all. If he uses Amaterasu, the fire will just be intercepted by the needles and fired back at Itachi.
No what I'm saying is that Jiraiya uses Dai Endan while either Fukusaku or Shima spit oil from their mouths. Dai Endan>>> Shima's katon attack, by a significant margin. How do I know? Because even with Shima supplying fire, Goemon is still
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(bottom panel). Contrast that with TOFB where Bunta provides much more oil than Jiraiya did, but base Jiraiya's katon still
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. More fire = hotter temperature thus this modified Goemon > Goemon = Mei's lava. In terms of temperature.How do I know one of the other toads can use oil?
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Shima had to tell them what element to use. If neither her nor Pa could use oil, she would only have to say "Use Goemon!" and Jiraiya would already know he'd have to bring the oil. Besides, it wouldn't make sense if Bunta could use oil but the two Sage toads with 800+ years of training at Myoboku can't.
Jiraiya can make sure Goemon hits. All he needs to do is use Yomi Numa first to slow him down (he can
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first so Itachi doesn't see it and dodge, or he makes a clone which uses YN right when Jiraiya uses Goemon.) So a ribcage would get melted through pretty easily from a few seconds of exposure making Itachi power up to V2 in which case neither Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi are being used.I'll agree that Toad Flame Oil Bullet isn't a good idea since Susanoo would tank and Gamabunta would die.
Jiraiya's strategy isn't to bust through Susanoo, it's so Itachi keeps it up so he doesn't attack with his one shotters. Itachi isn't using Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi in V2/V3 Susanoo. If he dispells it, guess what? Jiraiya attacks with Goemon and Itachi has to put it up again. Goemon+COR would obliterate V2 Susanoo. Mei's lava was affecting Madara's V2 which is >>>> Itachi's V2. So much stronger in fact that it takes on
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whereas Itachi's is still
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. You only need to compare their V4 Susanoos to see the gap.
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Madara's Susanoo was still partially melted
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. What offers more resistance, cold hard candle wax or soft wax that has partially melted? You get the analogy. Weakening Susanoo this way means that the follow up Chou Oodama Rasengan would destroy it with ease, especially when it does heavy damage to V2 on its own.The fact that the Rasengan's explosion would push back Jiraiya actually helps Jiraiya since it effectively puts distance between him and Susanoo following the attack.
Let me stand corrected, I meant to say chakra instead of MS strain. And nope, manifesting Susanoo takes a large initial burst of chakra, and then keeping it up continually takes chakra but less so than the initial burst. Otherwise you would have to claim that Madara can form and dispell PS ten times in ten minutes, and it would take the same amount of chakra as if he formed it once and kept it up for ten minutes. So yeah, Itachi's better off if he just keeps maintains Susanoo instead of constantly turning it on/off otherwise he throws away chakra, and as his chakra decreases his reactions and jutsu are decreased.
Sasuke tried to power up to a V2 Susanoo against Mei and failed [
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]. He didn't have enough chakra for that initial burst even though he was using it for an extended time when he was rested, and chose to maintain it. If manifesting Susanoo doesnt take any more chakra than simply maintaining it, all Sasuke would have had to do against Danzo is maintain a ribcage and power up to V3 each time he needed to take him out with a Susanoo arrow.Kabuto doesn't have a technique that takes out any clones in seconds from long range, and besides, Kabuto was distracted. Three heads is better than one, so even if two of the Sages are distracted the third one will notice the clone. Fukusaku and Shima can take them out with their tongues if any clones come close.
-Fukusaku and Shima can counter Amaterasu without Jiraiya on their own just fine.
-When has an MS user used genjutsu and Amaterasu in rapid succession? He'd have to do both in less than a second, which is not possible considering the buildup of chakra to use Amaterasu takes at least a second.
Avoiding eye contact is easy for Jiraiya if Itachi's in Susanoo. He doesn't even need to look at Itachi, he just needs to focus on Susanoo to defend himself. If he's at a distance, I doubt he can even clearly see Itachi's eyes through Susanoo which is partially opaque. Hence why Madara had to
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in order to force eye contact.That's if Itachi can even use Tsuku with Susanoo, and if he can it would put a strain on his eyes since it's much more taxing than Amaterasu. Sick Itachi went
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from using Amaterasu 5+ times. Itachi went blind in his other eye after using Tsukuyomi once, and then holding up Susanoo for a few seconds [
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]. Chou Oodama Rasengan pretty much spells the end for Itachi if he tries to get close in the smokescreen. Either his ribcage Susanoo gets obliterated while trying to use Amaterasu/Genjutsu, or he activates V2 to survive and therefore won't be able to use Tsuku/Ama to attack Jiraiya. COR acts as a shield from Susanoo if it attacks and its explosion blasts Jiraiya backwards to a safe distance. COR is also a shield from Amaterasu and blocks eye contact between the two.
Tsukuyomi is pre-programmed by the caster before it's actually used, not while the opponent is inside the genjutsu world. Otherwise Itachi himself would have had to be stabbing Kakashi for 72 hours, inside the same illusion Kakashi was in. When he's prepping it, That's when the chakra build up occurs. Both times Itachi used it in Part 1 he showed a delay time:
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You can't program a genjutsu without some sort of chakra build up involved. It's not as obvious as literal blood dripping from the eye, but it's clear Tsukuyomi isn't something like Shinra Tensei that can be activated any time with no chakra involved.
Only thing I agree with. The only purpose they'd serve is in attacks if Jiraiya wants to use more than one jutsu at the same time.
That's assuming the whole dust cloud would catch fire instantly. When Temari used fuuton on Amaterasu, the flames
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, in fact it appears they got smaller from before [
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]. If Amaterasu hits the dust cloud, it would catch fire sure but it wouldn't burn through the whole thing in seconds. Jiraiya would have ample time to get out of there. Katon would burn it a little faster, but Jiraiya would feel the heat and shunshin behind the dust cloud, still out of Itachi's view.And no, it wouldn't make a
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. That only happens when there's combustible or flammable debris in the air. Dust cloud is just ordinary fuuton blown at the ground so that it kicks up sand/dirt into the air.I agree that Jiraiya can't exit his line of sight in an open location, or evade with his raw speed. That doesn't mean Amaterasu will hit though. He can retreat into the
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when he senses Amaterasu. The treeline is not that far from Jiraiya. He's crossed greater distances before in less time, take for example how he appeared in a hotel room hallway and summoned a toad in an instant to intercept Kisame's attack. He can shunshin behind a tree before Amaterasu is used so it hits the tree instead of Jiraiya.Not only that, but the
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created when Jiraiya uses shunshin can repel Amaterasu. I know you think that's impossible. But this is actually a valid claim when it's been shown that a strong enough outward force will
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. How strong is a puff of smoke? With larger sized objects the sheer force produced by
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going outward will blow back objects [
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][
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][
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][
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]...something without force behind it like a small Amaterasu can be blown back easily so long as it doesn't hit Jiraiya directly first. And since Jiraiya can anticipate it, he can do this right.>Jiraiya sees Magatama being formed
>Jiraiya uses COR to shield himself
After Rasengan resolves, he just continues to do the same thing each time he sees Magatama being formed.
But Susanoo is heavy. Itachi can't shunshin if he was holding giant barbells. Nor can he shunshin while holding up a heavy durable shield of chakra. Its size and durability alone should be enough to prove it's not something light, let alone the fact that it
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and still was standing upright. Don't say it's just a physical strength feat of Susanoo, because if someone strong like Tsunade or Kisame tried anchoring themseves with an arm their whole body would be pulled toward Baku whereas Susanoo was standing upright. Something that large, durable, and strong can't be light. Maybe he can use max shunshin in a ribcage. Anything above that? Itachi's shunshin speed gets significantly decreased if his Susanoo is moving with him. If you're claiming Susanoo is light, then by feats Jiraiya can kick around Susanoo with his SM strength.As for the Nagato instance, how is that a speed feat for Itachi using Susanoo when we don't even know if Itachi was using Susanoo prior to cutting of Nagato's arm? The Rinnegan's linked vision would have quickly picked up a giant skeleton so it's obvious Itachi manifested Susanoo after he poked out the animal summons' eyes with shuriken.
>Itachi uses shuriken to target the Rinnegan's blind spots.
>shunshins close to Nagato's position.
>activates Susanoo.
>Chops of Nagato's arm.
That sequence of events is the only logical way to describe that instance, and Nagato being unable to sense him doesn't constitute proof of any kind when he was A) being controlled by Kabuto whose target was the Jinchuuriki B) focusing on taking out said jinchuuriki and C) Nagato's sensing radius reaches all the way back to Kabuto's cave so there's no way Itachi shunshined from outside to inside his sensing range. Sensors can be distracted, I shouldn't have to explain that. The fact that he cut off Nagato's arm and snatched up Naruto and Bee isn't as impressive as you're saying since Susanoo was using three arms to multitask.
I don't understand the bold. Using shunshin while carrying extra weight will be slower than using shunshin while carrying only your body weight. Any proof that Sasuke covered that short distance very quickly?
Itachi
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shortening the distance between Kabuto and Sasuke and then yells "Sasuke!". That's enough time for Sasuke to close whatever distance remains which is not very much at all. And that still, was only in a V2 Susanoo. I don't see how you can claim the distance doesn't matter when speed is literally defined as distance over time.Uh, Jiraiya has several ways he can escape his own swamp.
1. Jiraiya can just undo Yomi Numa.
2. Jiraiya or a
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can just summon the barrier toad back above ground with the Sage toads inside. NO, Jiraiya doesn't exit SM when the toads leave his shoulders since it's fact he can use it without Ma and Pa [
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] he only needs them to enter SM in the first place. If you bring up the example of him leaving SM once Ma leaves his shoulder, that could be because his body was in a weakened state and couldn't handle Sage chakra. Or, you know a shadow clone can summon him back.3. Jiraiya uses his hair (
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) to grip the edges of the swamp and pull himself out.4. Summon a boss toad below him which pushes away the mud and push him above the swamp.
Already addressed the part about the dust cloud.
-Boss toads can cover enormous distances with their leaps [
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][
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][
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] so they can jump away from Susanoo's attacks and evade a few times. Yasaka Magatama is only doing minor damage to toads and can be deflected by the toad's weapons [
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] or blocked with water bullets for Bunta [
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]. Itachi can't target their vitals with Magatama and have them hit while they're in midair since their position is constantly changing midair.-Jiraiya's clone isn't getting targeted with Amaterasu if he's a small target at a distance. He can literally hide anywhere in the toad's body including its mouth or inside its clothes. Using a
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, he can create big clouds of smoke to push Amaterasu back from the target. If a toad does get hit, there's always Jiraiya's fire sealing scroll which can
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before it does fatal damage to the toad. Besides, if Itachi drops Susanoo to use Amaterasu the other toads can attack him while he targets the other toad.-If Itachi genjutsu's a toad, the clone breaks it out with partner method.
-Jiraiya can even go on the offensive, having attacks like Swamp of the Underworld or TOFB to slow down Itachi.
All of this isn't to prove 4 boss toads + a SM clone can handle Itachi. It's to prove they can prolong the battle for at least a minute or two to prepare the genjutsu. They can counter Itachi's attacks to a degree once or twice. That's all that's needed since putting down four boss toads is not something that can be done all that quickly. Plus, using techniques to deal with these toads puts a serious drain on Itachi's chakra and MS, whether he's fighting them with genjutsu, Amaterasu, or Susanoo.
Itachi's now in a position where he's left defenseless and can't evade the next attack due to being midair. Kebari Senbon turns his ass into a pincushion, or Jiraiya makes another Yomi Numa aimed at his landing spot.
Dust cloud or smoke bombs let them hide their hand sign, if you can call it a hand sign since it's literally just them clapping their hands together. So Itachi doesn't predict their move.
He can't weave hand seals for Suiton if he's paralyzed.
A large portion of this text is false. Very little time elapsed between the two pages you linked me.
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Everything that happened in these pages happened in the time span it takes for Animal Path to fall to the ground where Jiraiya was, where he was greeted with a kick.
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Animal Path is sent flying by the kick. Your argument that Human Path would have been submerged if YN pulled in the opponent is flawed considering the whole process took only a couple seconds. Adhesive=sticky. Being a swamp that's sticky doesn't explain why Human Path was getting pulled in, against gravity as I showed you with his forearm.
Frog Call's duration shown in the manga is long enough for Itachi to be sunk by a SM swamp. Susanoo doesn't help as it would sink with Itachi, and its added weight would just make it sink faster.
-Can't weave hand seals for Katon when he's paralyzed.
-Can't turn his head to look at the ground when he's paralyzed. Therefore he can't cast Amaterasu directly on the swamp and he doesn't have enton like Sasuke. Jiraiya can easily provide a
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to ensure Itachi is looking the way he wants him to if necessary. Assuming Itachi is looking straight ahead, then maybe he can cast Amaterasu on the portion of the swamp surrounding him by the time he's sunk so far in he's eye level with it. But by then, it's too late since another second later he's submerged. All that's left is to summon a Food Cart Destroyer above the swamp and crush him. Amaterasu won't dry up the swamp fast enough.
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"It can't even sink in such a small swamp" = Base Jiraiya's regular swamp is deep enough to completely submerge a boss snake in that given time frame. He made that remark immediately after he saw the effects of the swamp.
Read above. I've given reasons why Itachi would get caught.
Jiraiya's strategy will literally be to attack him as much as possible so he's forced to keep up Susanoo. Running and defending was never part of my argument. And he won't be closing the distance if he's keeping up Susanoo, plus a COR explosion blasts Jiraiya back and is always a good method for retreat.
The resultant explosion from COR will blast back Jiraiya putting him at a distance where he can counter Amaterasu through smokescreens or using shunshin to go behind a tree (the smoke clearing provides Jiraiya with extra cover). Madara was only able to knock Naruto away so easily since his Rasengan never actually exploded, if it was then the Susanoo hand which smacked him away would have been destroyed. Jiraiya can perfectly time when to explode his Rasengan given his sensing and reactions which are well above Base Naruto's (who was caught by surprise that Madara had Susanoo at all.)
Smoke doesn't provide cover for shit since Jiraiya and the toads can sense multiple presences on the battlefield and mow down the clones with Kebari Senbon before it gets close. You're forgetting Ma and Pa can take out the crow clone on their own (with their tongues) and Jiraiya counters Amaterasu with shunshining into the forest. OR, Jiraiya takes out the clone and Ma/Pa counter the follow up Amaterasu with smokescreens.
>Itachi tries to close distance.
>Jiraiya uses COR (shield against Amaterasu, breaks eye contact, poses threat to Itachi).
>Itachi uses Susanoo to tank COR.
>COR explosion
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back to the distance he was originally at. Same thing happens again if Itachi tries to do it again.I never used clones to counter Amaterasu in my argument.
KidGamer65
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KidGamer65
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Alright. I'll agree that the two uses of Tsukuyomi don't go together, but whether or not he was stamina guy wasn't my point as we all know he has never had top tier stamina. My point is, his stamina is nowhere near as bad as it was during his fight with Sasuke considering after using two MS techs in a row he'd be on the ground.
"When clones are dispelled by the user..."
That's all that needs to be said here. He didn't dispel that clone. He spent that chakra and it was destroyed when it blew up, so yes, he did split his chakra in half and use Tsukuyomi immediately after.
Because it was implied, pretty sure it was outright stated AND he used Tsukuyomi in Part 1 without any such backlash. Not sure why you are giving me this explanation when Manga reactions and statements and previous feats show that collapsing after Tsukuyomi is not normal.
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Once again. Zetsu is surprised that Itachi is the one who has fallen on the floor and not Sasuke.
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Zetsu notes that Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi is what gave him the upper hand. Another hint that it being broken is why Itachi fell on the floor. Sasuke also asks if Tsukuyomi is causing any side effects. But the major giveaway is the lack of blurred vision and pain in his left eye after it's usage before.
Your two examples are irrelevant because Izanami and Sound Genjutsu are completely different in almost every way besides the fact that they are Genjutsu.
How does the bold make sense? Why would Itachi be in two Genjutsu worlds at once? He casts Tsukuyomi, so he'd be in the Tsukuyomi Genjutsu world. Not any other Genjutsu world. Not to mention he really isn't in any Genjutsu world to begin with, so how is this point even relevant?
Not sure what you are talking about here. Zetsu had two reactions. One to Sasuke getting up, and another one to Itachi falling on the ground and holding his eye. He didn't only react to Sasuke getting up, which nulls your point. There'd be no reason for Zetsu to be surprised at Itachi's fall if it was normal MS backlash. Zetsu's statement obviously means that he knew about Tsukuyomi's abilities even before Sasuke collapsed. He knows that getting hit by Tsukuyomi means that you shouldn't be able to move anymore after that. Seeing Sasuke collapse isn't going to tell him that Sasuke should be rendered immobile and incapable of fighting for the rest of the match. It's only going to tell him that he collapsed.
Then there's the fact that Itachi hit Sasuke with Tskuyomi, but only collapsed when Sasuke had broken out of it. If what you were saying is true and using it is what gives him the backlash, then he would've collapsed the moment he hit Sasuke, not the very moment he breaks out of the jutsu. That clearly isn't a coincidence. If what you were saying is true and he wasn't maintaining Tsukuyomi, then he'd feel the backlash from the moment he hit Sasuke, not the moment Sasuke broke out.
Nope. Read above.
You claimed that he wouldn't be able to use it with Susanoo without any proof, probably basing it off of Amaterasu, which is a completely different jutsu. Not to mention the strain has shown to be greater when Amaterasu is in use, while Tsukuyomi has no backlash unless the tech is broken out of.
Once again, what you are describing is because of Tsukuyomi. None of his symptoms started until the very moment Sasuke broke out of Tsukyomi.
He didn't go blind first of all. His vision became blurry. Even then that was only because Tsukuyomi was broken, not because he used it. That conclusion makes zero sense when we've seen him use it without the blurry vision, and him kneeling over and holding his eyes. So in reality using Tsukuyomi has never caused him the amount of strain using Amaterasu has. None of Itachi's eyes ever went blind until he had gotten his Tsukuyomi broken, used Amaterasu, and then used Susanoo for much longer than a few seconds unless you think everything from Kirin being tanked to Itachi's death lasted only "a few seconds". Which is obviously not true.
Then I misinterpreted.
If he uses Susanoo to block, then he wouldn't even need Tsukuyomi in that instance. Then there's the fact that Tsukuyomi has shown to not be as straining as Amaterasu, and there's the fact that I said all he needs to do is use a hand, not a full Ribcage or a V2. So the "Sasuke couldn't use Amaterasu w/ V2" example doesn't even apply here.
Lmao. Then that makes much more sense. I'll agree that they can use oil. But since when was more flame=hotter temperature? Fire only gets hotter when you add more fuel to it. Meaning fire is only going to get hotter when you mix wind with it, or if it's a different type of flame altogether. (Amaterasu) Not to mention a hotter flame hit the oil Jiraiya produced for Goemon yet it is still oil. Ma tells Pa to fan the flames, so that's a Katon and a Fuuton together hitting the oil Jiraiya makes. Jiraiya only used
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to ignite Bunta's oil, which shouldn't be hotter than a Katon Fuuton combo (with Senjutsu in it no less) yet somehow the Endan changed it all to fire. And it definitely doesn't make sense for a hotter Katon to not change oil into fire unless there was some other explanation. Pretty sure that the wind makes it not become completely fire for some reason. Dai Endan maybe stronger than Shima's Katon, but by a large margin? Nothing supports it.
Sharingan
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So that won't hide his hand sign. The clone plan might work, but if they use them at the same time, Itachi still only needs to dodge in one direction since he knows as long as he moves he's evaded Yomi Numa, thus he can focus on Goemon. Then there's the fact that it's
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Jumping up would let him evade both attacks regardless of whether or not they can attack.Or he could just tank with Susanoo since the attack doesn't last forever. Once he's in the clear, he can downgrade if needed.
If he puts it down and Jiraiya attacks with Goemon straight up, then why would he need to tank it when the battlefield is one giant grassland? He'd just evade it. Agreed that Goemon+COR would obliterate V2, but your scaling for Madara and Itachi's Susanoo are way way off.
1. Why would you compare Madara's Armored Susanoo to Itachi's Armored Susanoo and then use that gap as evidence that the gap between Itachi's V2 and Madara's V2 are similar when the size difference between Itachi and Madara's V2 is ridiculous. More chakra=Harder to get through=Can tank much more. Madara only has the chakra advantage when it comes to V2, but he has the chakra and ridiculous size advantage when it comes to V2 as well.
2. What you are showing me is Madara's V2 transforming into a V3. Not Madara's V2 standalone.
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Just like Itachi and Sasuke's. I already agreed that V2 would be heavily damaged by COR alone, so I'll just agree here. Though regardless of the accuracy of your analogy, the damage Madara's Susanoo took was still negligible at best. So the difference between what it can take and what an undamaged Susanoo can take is also negligible.
Ok.
No. Why would the initial burst be more taxing on the reserves when the
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Sasuke put a ribcage up with no effort only to reel over in pain because he said he's maintained it too long. But I'll agree that the initial burst costs chakra. But the only way that keeping it up the whole time will be better is if he tried to respawn Susanoo many times in succession, cause the keeping it up is what is tiring, mainly because the chakra spent over such a long period of time is obviously going to be more than what you used to make the Susanoo in the first place.-Sasuke uses a Ribcage Susanoo, then holds it up for an extended period of time against Ay, and then uses V2 for a second only to retract it and go on to Mei. By the time he's reached Mei and has used Ribcage again, he's reeling in pain from keeping Susanoo on too long,
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-Madara used PS at VoTe and was relatively fine, but by the time the clash with Hashirama was over,
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That doesn't prove your point considering you are referencing two completely different stages of Susanoo. Not having the chakra to maintain V2 Susanoo once he reached Mei doesn't prove your point, especially since he was not using that same Susanoo for an extended period of time. He only used it to tank the combined attack from the Kage+bodyguards and then he cut the pillars and escaped.
I'll just agree here. Don't think clones are a wise idea anyway.
I hope you tell me how.
Come on now. Itachi has used Amaterasu back to back. No reason why he wouldn't be able to use any kind of Ocular Genjutsu in a second Amaterasu's stead. Why would he have to do both in less than a second anyway? The Genjutsu traps them, and then he has a second or two to use Amaterasu. It'll take a second for them to break him out of Genjutsu, but if was trapped in Genjutsu while Amaterasu was building up, then he has no way to stop it since he can't outright evade it.
But yeah, that's if Genjutsu lands. Not necessarily arguing that it will.
As long as he's far away from Itachi then I'll agree with this, but if he's not and it becomes CQC, Itachi would just pull a Madara and snatch Jiraiya up and Genjutsu him. But I'd prefer not to rely on a Genjutsu strategy.
This has been addressed above. Unless Itachi has some kind of super sense or something, the loss of his MS pattern does not mean that he was blind. Not when he was taking apart Orochimaru's Hydra, and taking out Oro himself. Not to mention he walked right towards Sasuke, poked him in the forehead and everything. Things he would not be able to do unless he were able to see somewhat.
There's no way Jiraiya would be able to hit him and kill him with COR all before he can activate a V3 Susanoo, so I guess Itachi just tanks Jiraiya's attack and Jiraiya falls back. Right back to square 1.
I'll just agree with the Genjutsu part here, mainly cause I don't really think it'll be a factor.
Two completely different scenarios, mainly because Itachi can produce much more Amaterasu than that and he'd directly hit the dust cloud fuuton. I'm 99% sure Temari only used Kamaitachi to cut up the Samurai's Armor. If she hit the whole entire Samurai, she would've cut up all of his armor.
And we've already seen a Fuuton vs. Amaterasu scenario. Fuuton was eaten up in a matter of seconds.
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But I agree that Jiraiya would escape this, but then whatever strategy he was going to use this dust cloud isn't going to happen. But he'd have to use the flame on the Fuuton itself, not the dust that arises from the Fuuton.
Alright. You have a point here.
Retreating into the forest from the distance you are suggesting he does so is still the same thing as saying that he evades Amaterasu, which he factually cannot do. The
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away from where Jiraiya would start. Even if he can sense, unless he can retreat into the forest before Itachi actually uses Amaterasu, he's screwed. And considering Amaterasu can be used this quickly, I'm going to go with the clear notion that he's screwed.
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We don't know where exactly he was before he appeared, nor did they even show him traveling. So how did you come to the conclusion that he crossed a distance greater than 30m in a timeframe before Amaterasu could be used? Off panel entry feats aren't valid for that exact reason. Then there's the fact that even if he made it, we've already seen how fast
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Jiraiya would either die in a forest fire made of black flame, or he'd be smoked out of the forest and taken out by either a second Amaterasu or Susanoo.:|
None of those scans show anything being pushed back by the cloud of smoke created by the summoning.
-Kurama's weight or it's movement is what caused the shockwaves near it's feet. Not the smoke.
-Manda II shows nothing being pushed back.
-Bunta and the Centipede are literally the same as the Kurama incident.
What's worse is that the cloud of smoke doesn't emanate from the user's body when Shunshin is used, so how is it going to push Amaterasu off? Not to mention this requires him to be on fire first. There is no "doesn't hit Jiraiya directly first". Amaterasu doesn't appear until it's appeared on the target. The only way to blow it away is for him to blow it away once it's formed completely, on his body since he can't dodge it.
Ok.
I don't know where the Susanoo is so heavy stuff came from, but literally nothing in this Manga implies that Susanoo is some kind of extremely heavy entity that makes the user practically immobile while he's in it. Your barbell example is poor since it'd have to be a heavy ass barbell considering strength feats from people below or near Itachi in the area.
-PTS Lee was ripping trees out of the ground with ease.
-PTS Sasuke was putting down giant boars with his strength alone, and Itachi manhandled that Sasuke.
Is it light? Obviously not. Is it heavy enough to make Itachi immobile? No. Susanoo would've been pulled away in a heartbeat if it offered no resistance, yet when it anchored itself to the ground it was safe against the suction. That's physical strength. Not physical strength+weight. Not to mention it doesn't all have to do with physical strength. The thing he's anchoring himself too is also a factor.
-Kisame is not as strong as Susanoo.
-Tsunade's feats are lifting and striking due to CES. What does that have to do with her anchoring herself?
What's worse is that none of these people can even dig their hands into the ground deep enough to anchor themselves.
Manifesting it after doesn't prove your point considering he can still activate Susanoo afterwards and then attack Nagato w/ Susanoo like I described.
Not really. Nagato being controlled by Kabuto changes what again? Last time I checked Nagato, nor any Edo, lost any ability of theirs when Kabuto took control of them. Sensing is active as long as you are kneading chakra, so unless you can prove that Nagato wasn't kneading chakra, then his sensory ability was intact. Whether or not Itachi wasn't sensed isn't the relevant part. The relevant part is that he was fast enough to do all this before Nagato could react to him. Nagato got blindsided. Unless you think Itachi is fast enough to blindside Nagato strolling through the battlefield, then you don't have a point.
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Then there's the fact that we can see the dust kicking up from Itachi's movement and you can see his pose. So he didn't just activate Susanoo and strike Nagato with the hand.
If what you are carrying is heavy enough to hinder you, then yes. Putting on extra weight isn't automatic proof that you'll get so much slower that the difference will affect your performance.
Wrong.
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The distance in these two scans are no different. Itachi pulled back on the snakes, but there's zero evidence for the claim that he pulled them back so close that Sasuke's feat is irrelevant. Speed being distance over time doesn't mean that you can't cross a short distance at a fast pace. There was a good 10m+ between Kabuto and the Uchiha Bros even in the scan where they are holding his snakes and pulling his hood off. Sasuke is in Susanoo next to Itachi one minute, then Itachi pulls on the snake and by that time Sasuke has already crossed 10+m in his V2 (almost V3 as half of it was transformed, seen on both their Susanoo at the time) Susanoo and grabbed Kabuto's hood. That's a speed feat.
Obviously not how Yomi Numa works. There is no "undoing it". Jiraiya uses the chakra to change the earth to the swamp, and that's it. He doesn't control the swamp or have any link to it after that. Not to mention there is zero proof for this claim.
Out of all these strategies, this is the only one that even comes close to making sense here. Jiraiya can't summon the barrier toad back considering you've stated that he enters the swamp with his toad. Unless you are implying that he stays behind and lets the barrier toad take the elders down under with him. If you are, then Itachi would shit on a Jiraiya w/o the Elder Sages support considering the most dangerous jutsu he has comes from them. A single Amaterasu would be good game since he can't evade it or block LoS w/o their help. Same thing happens if Jiraiya leaves a shadow clone behind to do it instead.
This strategy is also flawed either route you take it, especially since:
1. How would Jiraiya's clone or Jiraiya know when the Gama Rinsho is prepped? Clones can't telepathically communicate with the original IIRC. Only Hashirama and Moku Bunshin showed that ability. In fact, Kakashi teaching Naruto about the shadow clone's experience transfer proves that they don't have a connection like that. It's even worse if the original Jiraiya separates from them and lets them dive in since we both know that there is no kind of connection. Though I suppose that you could try and argue that Jiraiya knows the exact time the prep takes.
2. Itachi wouldn't be twiddling his thumbs while the prep period is going on. He'd be mowing down Jiraiya and his clones and his Toads. Mainly his clones first since they are the ones who can summon the elder toads back.
Not possible if he burrows down deep into the swamp. Not to mention he can't pull himself out of an adhesive swamp that can trap boss sized summons with ease. Especially with his hair. Zero strength feat for this. Not to mention his hair wouldn't even be able to travel through the swamp to begin with.
Impossible when he can't even move an inch when he's buried in an adhesive swamp. Not to mention that assumes the swamp isn't so deep that he doesn't get pushed above at all. Considering Drugged Jiraiya almost sunk a snake near the size of any Toad he can call, and considering that Regular Base Jiraiya>>Drugged Jiraiya, and considering that Sage Mode Jiraiya>>>Regular Jiraiya>>Drugged Jiraiya, I'm gonna go with the notion that Base Jiraiya can sink boss toad sized creatures let alone Sage Mode Jiraiya.
Their position constantly changing makes no difference when Sharingan precognition lets him track the trajectory of the toad's movement. He'd see where they'd go even before they'd go. Not to mention that's a feat that can be pulled off even w/o the need for Sharingan. If being in movement made it impossible for anyone to be hit, then moving people wouldn't be shot with guns. Moving animals wouldn't be shot with arrows.
And why would Yasaka only do minor damage to the toads when a bead smaller than
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went through Gaara's Sand Shield and cracked Onoki's golem? [
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] Madara's being stronger isn't an excuse since only one bead was enough to go through one spot on their defense. Toads have no durability feat that'd put them on par with Onoki and Gaara's shield, so Magatama kills them if aimed and shot through a vital point.If boss toads jump away, then Itachi would just put down Susanoo and use an Amaterasu sweep on them. [
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] A counter attack won't be a factor when they'll be far away from -Yeah, this only happens if we assume that Itachi only attempts to use Amaterasu until after Jiraiya has made a giant amount of distance between them with the Toad's leaps, and considering I said that Itachi. Unless Jiraiya starts this far away, or the toads are somehow fast enough to react to Amaterasu, grab Jiraiya and jump far away before it's used, Jiraiya's clone dies a terrible death. Combination Transformation isn't going to work since he'll need to be on top of the Toad if he wants to do that, and he's not doing that before Amaterasu roasts him. Fire sealing scroll is also useless since clones poof with minor damage let alone damage from Amaterasu. The only way this counter would work is if I had said that Itachi takes out the Toads first, but I only suggested two scenarios, not two connecting scenarios. Especially since Jiraiya is pretty much done for once his clone is destroyed, since no one will be able to retrieve him from the swamp otherwise, as no Toad bar maybe Gamakichi and the Elder Sages have shown summoning jutsu.
-Already addressed the smoke and Amaterasu thing.
-How will the other toads counter attack if they are at a distance like you said they'd be? Never said that Amaterasu would be used on the toads anyway so this part of the scenario never even happens.
And during the second or two it takes for Jiraiya to break out the Toad and for the Toad to realize what's happening, Itachi tosses a Magatama through it's gut/chest/head. Whatever works best.
Considering he can easily evade the swamp, and literally run through TOFB if he has a V2 Susanoo up, this won't slow him down. The smoke and flame would only give him cover to kill Bunta while or right after TOFB is used.
Ok.
Or Kebari Senbon is tanked by Itachi simply activating a Susanoo hand again. If Jiraiya makes another Yomi Numa, then Itachi can put down Susanoo and use a small Amaterasu on enough of the swamp so that he can stand on it without sinking, since the flame will harden the mud. Katon can also achieve this so he might not even have to put down Susanoo.
Considering Dust Cloud is just a bunch of dust being kicked up by Fuuton (Something I never knew till now), Sharingan easily sees through it just like it sees through walls as it's not made of chakra, only the stream kicking up the dust is chakra.
Lmfao. Forgot.
Fine. I'll agree here. But considering Itachi can escape getting paralyzed altogether, this doesn't affect much.
Agreed.
Partly addressed.
Ok.
Smokescreens don't work. Not only would the flame consume the smoke screen and anything in it, Jiraiya can't Shunshin behind a tree and
Lmao. And since when did Rasengan explode on command? Since never. The only time any jutsu resembling Rasengan has exploded on command is when Naruto used YRS, and possibly when he used FRS on Pain. Rasengan didn't explode because Madara smacked it away before it could explode, not because Naruto was too slow to detonate it.
So each and every time this guy attempts COR, V3 Susanoo would knock him away, and then Amaterasu would finish him off while he's mid air.
So could Kabuto. In fact his sensing was much better yet he was punked by the same exact move. Only this time Itachi has cover. You mentioned him being distracted, but what exactly are you referring to? The time the clone feint happened was when Itachi charged at Kabuto and then Kabuto attacked him. Sasuke was sitting on the sidelines watching that short exchange.
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The distraction they made is what caused him to be tagged by Susanoo Arrow. You also stated that sensors can be distracted, which is exactly what's going to happen here since:
1. Loss of vision due to smoke.
2. Giant chakra signature on the field due to Katon.
Kabuto missed the Susanoo Arrow because of the two explosions right next to him, and wasn't able to dodge on time despite being a sensor. Jiraiya spamming a giant ass chakra filled Katon would only do worse than 2 Magatama explosions.
Nothing to do with the clone feint. Already countered the Amaterasu dodging portion of your post.
-Itachi tries to close distance.
-Jiraiya uses COR.
-Itachi uses Susanoo to slap away COR and Jiraiya like I said.
-COR never explodes and Jiraiya is left wide open for Amaterasu, Magatama etc.
-Itachi dies.
Just making sure I covered everything in his arsenal.
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ekoms2:
Just like Ice is replying to my opener. Or Zex's match-up. Honestly, there should be a rule for debates: no walls of text lol. It's hard on the debater, well as the judges. Gets boring after scroll, and reading the same shit, but in different forms.
