I guess, so, but that SFX used for shunshin translates to "fast movement" so I don't think it will be used on something that doesn't involve actual movement like S-T teleportation.
lol
Anyway, there is a difference between saying that Naruto blitzed her and that he can just blitz her. I haven't been here in a while, but a few mounts ago the arguments of Naruto being able to solo Kaguya were a little too widespread, maybe that changed.
I guess, so, but that SFX used for shunshin translates to "fast movement" so I don't think it will be used on something that doesn't involve actual movement like S-T teleportation.
Thank you.
lol
Anyway, there is a difference between saying that Naruto blitzed her and that he can just blitz her. I haven't been here in a while, but a few mounts ago the arguments of Naruto being able to solo Kaguya were a little too widespread, maybe that changed.
Not quite. A lack of SFX is generally either due to a more recent/louder SFX taking their places, such as getting stabbed and hitting the ground in Madara/Minato's case or the editors taking the freedom of translating them into what they deem to be the implied meaning like the first Sasuke case :
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The final Hirashin case is probably a mistake from Kishimoto's part as Minato is using the hand signs for the Shunshin justu with shunshin SFX but teleporting to a Kunai instead. So either he used Hiraishin to teleport somewhere then Shunshin to that spot or it's simply a mistake since Hiraishin was not very well established back then.
I find it strange that you believe the SFX for 4th hokage could be an error -
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- but not for Naruto -
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Besides, there are 2 flaws in your theory.
1 - There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything prior or after the attack -
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- It would be very dumb and danger for Sasuke to use his S/T on Naruto without telling him against Kaguya. Naruto wasn't surprise during his attack. If Sasuke have S/T Naruto he would have been surprise.
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
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that Naruto did -
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Either Kishi made a mistake twice or he will use that SFX for a character's physical speed. I believe the later because the bottom marks "the 2 dots about the slash" are a SFX for movement/speed used through manga:
Good morning/afternoon/evening everyone. It has been a while.
I have noticed that quite a few (many) people are confused about what actually happened in chapter 687 when Naruto cut-off Kaguya's arm, which is understandable to some degree, so I thought I should make this thread to help clarifying a bit. But first, since I know some people will undeniably jump to conclusions :
By no means am I trying to downplay Naruto's speed, or strip him of one of his feats. I always give credit where it's due and this regardless of which character or even series is being discussed, Naruto is not an exception. So while reading please keep in mind that the only purpose of this thread is correcting a flawed misinterpretation that has, unfortunately, been around for too long doing the series more harm than good, both debates wise and consistency wise.
With that out of the way, we can start.
The misconception : Naruto is faster than Kaguya and can just speed blitz her
Origin :
Back in chapter 687 we saw a pissed off Naruto seemingly blitzing Kaguya and cutting her arm off.
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Flawed interpretation :
Naruto is fast enough to rush all the way towards Kaguya and cut her arm off faster than she could react. He is simply too fast for her and could have solo'd her if not for the sealing requirement.
Explanation & Counter Argument:
As I previously said, it's rather easy for people to misinterpret what happened in this instance, especially since Kaguya was never very liked (being polite here) or respected as a villain and people would rather hype the protagonist than justify the villains low-end feat. However, there is some context behind this feat that needs to be taken into account to get an objective view of what happened.
1) Kaguya slowed down due to being low on chakra :
I think that this is an obvious fact to anyone who read the fight. During the battle Kaguya was seen repetitively using her S-T jutsu Amenominaka, which is a justu that consumes massive amounts of chakra as stated by Black Zetsu.
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This was later confirmed by both Obito and Sasuke on two separate occasions :
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And as explained by BZ, Kaguya's speed and strength are proportional to how much chakra she has left :
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So one can safely say that Naruto would not be able to replicate the feat against a standard Kaguya, which seems obvious considering how he needed to use distractions to tag her previously.
2) Naruto did not reach Kaguya through sheer speed, he was teleported by Sasuke.
I know that some people must be like 'lol what ?' after reading this, but judging by the manga this is indeed what happened. What makes this obvious is the fact that Kishimoto has consistently been shown to use two distinct SFXs for speed/Shunshin jutsus and Space-time Ninjutsu.
For instance here are a few examples of people using Shunshin/speed, notice the SFX used.
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And here are instances of people using S-T ninjutsu, notice that a different SFX is used.
Hiraishin :
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Amenominaka :
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Amenotejikira :
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Now comparing to the SFX shown when Naruto 'blitzed' Kaguya :
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That SFX is very clearly the one used for Space-time Ninjutsu, so unless Naruto has some unknown S-T jutsu which he can only use once in his life, I think that it's more logical to assume that Sasuke who was next to him and happens to be a S-T ninjutsu user teleported him.
Certainly, there have been instances of missing SFXs before, so before the argument shows up let me just say that the lack of S-T SFX in these instance, like Madara getting stabbed by the teleported sword for example, is due to a more important, louder or simply more recent SFX taking it's place, and that this does not in any way affect the solidity of the argument, as it's quite normal for a 'getting stabbed' SFX to be present in a scene where someone got stabbed even in the S-T SFX is not present, but one can't say that it's normal for a space-time teleportation SFX to be found where (supposedly) no S-T took place.
Once again, I'd like to point out that this thread isn't meant to downplay Naruto in any way and I certainly hope that people will not derail it into some Naruto vs Sasuke speed debate because that has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.
There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything immediately prior or after the attack -
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- It would be very dumb and danger for Sasuke to use his S/T on Naruto without telling him against Kaguya. Naruto wasn't surprise during his attack. If Sasuke have S/T Naruto he would have been surprise.
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
You're theory is wrong, at least when regarding Sasuke using his S/T on Naruto.
Usually we get some indication that Sasuke used it, and sometimes it is with the mark. However, there are times where it doesn't appear at all as shadowcb pointed out, and there are times where it's used without the use of S/T.
Ex.
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The marks appear to show Naruto activating his cloak and Madara getting away.
I honestly have no idea how Kaguya's powers work, but if it's anything like Sasuke's then you could be on to something as he lost his 6T after dimension swapping.
I'm poking around for anything :d no need to tell me.
We're doing a favor adding posts, in which would be vacant due to how valid,
and empty of controversy v.v
Read above.
He didn't prove anything. There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything immediately prior or after the attack -
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- It would be very dumb and danger for Sasuke to use his S/T on Naruto without telling him against Kaguya. Naruto wasn't surprise during his attack. If Sasuke have S/T Naruto he would have been surprise.
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
You talked about that in another thread and I responded to your post.
Your responds to me was you believe the 4th SFX was a error.
I find it strange that you believe the SFX for 4th hokage could be an error -
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- but not for Naruto -
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Besides, there are 2 flaws in your theory.
1 - There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything prior or after the attack -
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to
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
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that Naruto did -
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Either Kishi made a mistake twice or he will use that SFX for a character's physical speed. I believe the later because the bottom marks "the 2 dots about the slash" are a SFX for movement/speed used through manga:
I have already addressed most of those points in the previous thread. The reason, I called Minato's a possible mistake is due to the fact that Minato was quite clearly using the hand signs for Shunshin and SFX for Shunshin even though he teleported towards that kunai. So it's possible that Kishimoto simply made a mistake since that was among the earliest uses of the jutsu and S-T teleportation in general. So as I said, either it was a mistake or perhaps Minato used Hiraishin to escape then Shunshin to place the Kunai for some reason.
1) Sasuke needing to communicate his plan is irrelevant to Naruto not needing to. Naruto can and has communicated his thoughts telepathically to people before thanks to chakra linking and as Black Zetsu stated he was linked to Sasuke through the Yin-Yang chakra seals.
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2) That is actually a pretty good point. But Guy is the man capable of bending space in his 8th gate form similar to S-T jutsus so I'm not sure that should be considered a regular body flicker movement.
I'm not sure what your last argument is supposed to show ?
You're theory is wrong, at least when regarding Sasuke using his S/T on Naruto.
Usually we get some indication that Sasuke used it, and sometimes it is with the mark. However, there are times where it doesn't appear at all as shadowcb pointed out, and there are times where it's used without the use of S/T.
Ex.
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The marks appear to show Naruto activating his cloak and Madara getting away.
I honestly have no idea how Kaguya's powers work, but if it's anything like Sasuke's then you could be on to something as he lost his 6T after dimension swapping.
We do not need to have indicators as that's more for dramatic purpose and we actually the S-T SFX was shown on that Madara panel, check around his head.
Not really, Sasuke didn't need to focus his rinnegan the previous times he teleported. It seems to me more like he was about to teleport Sakura but noticed the Susanoo in that scan and stopped.
You talked about that in another thread and I responded to your post.
Your responds to me was you believe the 4th SFX was a error.
I find it strange that you believe the SFX for 4th hokage could be an error -
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- but not for Naruto -
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Besides, there are 2 flaws in your theory.
1 - There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything prior or after the attack -
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- It would be very dumb and danger for Sasuke to use his S/T on Naruto without telling him against Kaguya. Naruto wasn't surprise during his attack. If Sasuke have S/T Naruto he would have been surprise.
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
You must be registered for see links
that Naruto did -
You must be registered for see links
Either Kishi made a mistake twice or he will use that SFX for a character's physical speed. I believe the later because the bottom marks "the 2 dots about the slash" are a SFX for movement/speed used through manga:
There was no communication between Sasuke and Naruto before he attacked. We have seen Sasuke use his S/T on Naruto before and they communicated prior to the S/T being used. There was a plan. That didn't happen here. We don't see Sasuke doing anything immediately prior or after the attack -
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- It would be very dumb and danger for Sasuke to use his S/T on Naruto without telling him against Kaguya. Naruto wasn't surprise during his attack. If Sasuke have S/T Naruto he would have been surprise.
2 - Guy used the same SFX when he first used the 8th Gate -
The lack of communication doesn't matter. Back in part one, it was stressed that Naruto and Sasuke can pull off flawless teamwork without communication. Go back to where they did the Shadow Shuriken combo to Zabuza. It happened again when they combined Amaterasu with Rasenshuriken and while they were bonded with Kurama coated in Susano'o, they didn't need to talk for it to work.
Also, saying that the SFX doesn't work because Kishi doesn't always include them is like saying if Sasuke doesn't say Chidori, then the lightning in his palm isn't Chidori anymore. It doesn't matter that Kishi doesn't always include them. What matters is, when he does include them, he assigns specific SFX to the movement. What matters is the SFX for FTG is never used for anything but FTG; the SFX for Shunshiin is never used for anything but Shunshiin; the SFX for Ameno is never used for anything but Ameno.
So your theory is that Sasuke teleported Naruto to Kaguya who couldn't react due to low chakra. However this is flawed as:
Sasuke could quite have easily teleportd himself to Kaguya and done the same by that logic and yet he never touched her throughout the fight. Ever. Plus Naruto would have to be in on the plan which he absolutely wasn't.
Kaguya was perfectly capable of creating a world destroying Godoudama few moments after, poking a hole in the low chakra theory.
