[VS] Kakuzu vs Sasori

[Worm]

While holding a brief case full of money while he also was just trying to release Hidan from the jutsu? Not to mention he wasn't really going all out if he stopped just because Asuma appeared.


Why would he go all out to kill when he doesn't know if their worth money or not? Not to mention feats provided after prove he's faster anyways.


@AC IS was tanked by a chakra shield, straight up didn't even dent it. Don't come here with that "Domu doesn't have enough feats to tank it shit". Its feats are

-Tanking Bijju attack (Physical)
-Tanking Bijju Fire Ball
-Tanking Iron Sword
-Breaking down an IRON wall door
-Tanking Chouji's human boulder
-Tanking Paper Bombs

More feats than the pathetic chakra shield has.

I'm not talking about the Iron Sand Spears though. Literally what? Their destruction capacity is pathetically below the heavy IS blocks. Of course Kakuzu tanks the spears. I'm waiting for feats that can tank the Iron Sand Triangle or Block. None of which you mentioned have caused destruction on that level.

 

[Apêx1]

1000 Chirping birds is a reference to the rapid vibrations of the lightning....so it actually makes sense if you're not an idiot.

And Diamond morph is a reference for a substance which is generally considered durable.

 

[Zexion~]

I'm not talking about the Iron Sand Spears though. Literally what? Their destruction capacity is pathetically below the heavy IS blocks. Of course Kakuzu tanks the spears. I'm waiting for feats that can tank the Iron Sand Triangle or Block. None of which you mentioned have caused destruction on that level.

Uh what? He doesn't have to his speed and agility are >>Early Part one Sakura, he avoids them then sends them back rapid fire at Sasori with a hardened fist, if fired horizontally he could send it back right away.

Domu would tank it easy though, Chouji's spiky human boulder simulates metal by increasing his hairs hardness. It had more damage to it yet Kakuzu still tanked it head on on top of its head. Do you not realize that Iron is literally the weakest of all metals? (Well weaponized ones) its literally just a large block of weak metal. How do you think brunt force is going to shatter apart something that literally is just hardened skin? It might throw him back a bit of course but he'd be fine with ease.

Only one that has a chance is the elongated pyrimid. However it gets elongated to the point where its basically just a bit larger than the IS Spears anyways.

And Diamond morph is a reference for a substance which is generally considered durable.

What? Doesn't make sense my man.

1000 Chirping Birds would actually cause a rapid vibration .-.

 

[Apêx1]

What? Doesn't make sense my man.

1000 Chirping Birds would actually cause a rapid vibration .-.

Dude what are you even on about. For one, electricity doesn't vibrate. Two, I am showing you that 1000 chirping birds is used as an indicator for what the jutsu sounds like. So why can't Diamond Morph be an indicator for something which is generally construed is a tough substance (when it's only hard, not tough)?

 

[Zexion~]

Dude what are you even on about. For one, electricity doesn't vibrate. Two, I am showing you that 1000 chirping birds is used as an indicator for what the jutsu sounds like. So why can't Diamond Morph be an indicator for something which is generally construed is a tough substance (when it's only hard, not tough)?

What? Have you not heard of Bee's raiton VIBRATING blades?

Chidori is essentially the same, it gets its amazing sharpness through vibrating electricity.


Edit-Nah Nvm...guess it really is just a reference to how it sounds .-.

 

[Apêx1]

What? Have you not heard of Bee's raiton VIBRATING blades?

Chidori is essentially the same, it gets its amazing sharpness through vibrating electricity.

Oh true, I remember Kisame saying Raiton vibrates. Doesn't change anything though, the point is that birds are representing the sound that Chidori makes in whatever way. The way doesn't matter, as birds are birds and Chidori is Chidori. In the same way, Diamond is thought to be extremely tough (it's only hard, not tough). So in that sense the name diamond morph is indicating the durability of Kakuzu's Domu. It's not actually representing it structurally as Diamond would get smashed by every tanked Domu has stopped. You can smash Diamond with ease.

didn't see your edit my b

 

[ARGUS]

Medium difficulty? Really?

Domu hasn't shown any feat to say it is capable of tanking Sasori's heavy IS attacks.

Why not? we know for a fact that Domu hardens kakuzus body to an extent where paper bomb attacks are completely useless,
and he has canonically used it to tank chojis human boulder with no damage whatsoever,
then there is the fact that kakuzu explicitly states

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, and sasoris IS melee weaponry more or less falls under the same category

then thers also the fact that sasoris ''heavy'' IS attacks have shown no output that lets it breach something like a diamond morph

Kakuzu lacks the evasive skill to evade most of his attacks and Sasori can increase the speed of his own attacks while Kakuzu cannot.

Early part 2 sakura and old lady chiyo had the speed to evade nearly all of sasoris attacks bar Iron Forest
Kakuzus speed feat of intercepting kakashis raikiri

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and kicking him meters away alone puts him at a much higher level than sakura and chiyo,

he has also shown superior reactions to hidan who was briefly able to match kakashi in a CQC brawl, and seeing how kakuzu can use his tendrils to further assist his mobility ensures that sasoris slow attacks are evaded,

i would need proof for the bold

And his elemental attacks haven't shown the capability to even stand up to Iron Sand. Maybe Gian. But it should be clear why the hearts are gonna just be picked off by a bunch of Iron Sand Spears if Kakuzu actually releases them considering they are too slow to dodge them.

not seeing why youre overrating the speed of sasoris attacks,

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just how kakuzu is, they arent getting caught that easily,
worst case scenario, kakuzu can take precautionary measures and

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him having the extra tendrils along with speed faster than old lady chiyo and sakura means that sasori isnt catching him, ever.

as for gian, well, it required the equivalent of 2 raikiris to be able to cancel it out, meaning that it definitely has the firepower to breach the IS defense,

Sasori's puppetry is faster. Kakuzu tries to close in? Sasori pulls out another puppet and forces him back or to use Domu.

No its not, mind you that this iis the same guy who got blitzed by the likes of sai with no reaction whatsoever
his reactions are much slower than kakuzu, meaning that this isnt cutting it,, not to mention that once kakuzu closes in, sasori gets restrained by tendrils or obliterated by either a domu fist, or his elemental attacks, that can come from 4 different directions plus he has to worry about kakzuu himself, Lol he is never changing his puppet from a distance that close,

Or simply uses his own flamethrowers.

Domu tanks, or his plausible suiton negates,
kakuzus katon vastly overpowers,
its non factor at its finest

Tendrils either get cut up by his backblades, another puppet, Iron Sand or burns them via flamethrowers.

Puppets get overpowered and obliterated by elemental attacks,
tendrils may get cut up but kakuzu has the speed to evade them, whilst flamethrowers are non factor as stated above

At best, Sasori could easily just fly off on an Iron Sand platform which leaves only Atsugai and Gian as the only usable form of offense.

he isnt flying off to an extent wherre kakuzu cant get to him,
atsugai can still get him and a precisely aimed gian kills him

It's high difficulty for either of these characters if they're winning.

To this day i havnt seen what sasori has that lets him breach domu when his arsenal is just based on puppet weaponry

 

[Zexion~]

Oh true, I remember Kisame saying Raiton vibrates. Doesn't change anything though, the point is that birds are representing the sound that Chidori makes in whatever way. The way doesn't matter, as birds are birds and Chidori is Chidori. In the same way, Diamond is thought to be extremely tough (it's only hard, not tough). So in that sense the name diamond morph is indicating the durability of Kakuzu's Domu. It's not actually representing it structurally as Diamond would get smashed by every tanked Domu has stopped. You can smash Diamond with ease.

didn't see your edit my b

Yeah reverberating raiton makes it sharper I believe.

But DB entry states its merely the sound it makes :lol

 

[Worm]

Why not? we know for a fact that Domu hardens kakuzus body to an extent where paper bomb attacks are completely useless,
and he has canonically used it to tank chojis human boulder with no damage whatsoever,
then there is the fact that kakuzu explicitly states

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, and sasoris IS melee weaponry more or less falls under the same category

Because we've seen it pulverize through bedrock with simplistic ease. [

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] Choji's human boulder is not a good comparison. The level of destruction both of these cause is massively different. More so when it comes to the Triangle which has a sharp edge to it instead of just blunt force. It's a large ass triangle that gets flung at Kakuzu with massive force through magnetism and along with the already existant weight of the Iron Sand, both the impact and piercing force of the triangle should easily smash through Domu since Domu has not shown anything on that level. The destruction caused by the Triangle and the Block's attacks - mostly Triangle because it's far more destructive - literally dwarfed the boulder in front of the cave that Sakura smashed and that one easily dwarfed humans. [

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] I mean, the impact should affect his non-hardened insides, too, if we're gonna talk about it. Paper bombs - which Sakura tanked in early part 2 against Sasori [

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] - and a boulder that didn't cause destruction bigger than a human being really can't comparable at all to Sasori's Iron Sand. Especially since the Triangle can always be increased in weight by adding more Iron Sand to it.

then thers also the fact that sasoris ''heavy'' IS attacks have shown no output that lets it breach something like a diamond morph

Proof is above. If anything, they've shown far better destructive force than Kakuzu's Domu defense. Diamond Morph doesn't mean what it says at face value. That's the jutsu's name. Not an actual description of what Domu does or how hard it is. It's just there to imply that Domu is a hard substance like Apex said.

Early part 2 sakura and old lady chiyo had the speed to evade nearly all of sasoris attacks bar Iron Forest
Kakuzus speed feat of intercepting kakashis raikiri

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and kicking him meters away alone puts him at a much higher level than sakura and chiyo,

he has also shown superior reactions to hidan who was briefly able to match kakashi in a CQC brawl, and seeing how kakuzu can use his tendrils to further assist his mobility ensures that sasoris slow attacks are evaded,

Lets backtrack back a bit. Sakura and Chiyo had enough speed? Not really. Sakura fell on her ass trying to evade Sasori's stuff and was mostly saved due to being pulled around by Chiyo, too. [

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] You know what they had? Evasive skill. Speed isn't evasiveness. Speed is just the definition of crossing extended amounts of ground in a short period of time. Evasiveness is different than speed. It is literally moving your body in complex movements and throwing yourself away from a speeding projectile, i.e. evading it. The whole point of that fight was that Sakura and Chiyo were highly trained in evasive skill despite being unable to actually keep up with Sasori's attacks. Which let them survive. They lacked the speed, but had high evasive skill. Hence why Sakura managed to survive the Iron Sand World despite having not even near enough speed to actually outrun said attack.

The whole point of putting yourself through medic-nin training is making up for the lack of speed with evasive skill instead so you don't get it. In other words, the whole point was to basically read your opponent's attack pattern and start evading his attacks because a medic-nin isn't allowed to get hit. Nevermind the fact that Sakura and Chiyo were completely uncapable of actually dodging some of Sasori's attacks and had to put up shields instead. They weren't out-speeding anything. The very fact that Sasori kept them so pressured and that Sakura couldn't advance towards Sasori is testimony to that.

i would need proof for the bold

Alright. I'll just copy paste this from another thread where I had to explain it, too. [

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][

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] Increasing the magnetic force will increase the repellant property which can be used to increase speed further. The stronger the magnetic force, the stronger the repellant property. It is as simple as that. As long as Sasori is capable of pumping chakra into the Kazekage and increasing it's magnetic force even further, he'll be able to speed up his attacks. And considering Sasori has around 200+ containers of chakra, that isn't really a problem for him.

More so, we've seen bigger Satetsu attacks that are faster than the smaller Satetsu attacks already. Notably, the Satetsu Spears [

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] which's speed is highlighted by the fact that they: a) elongated after being launched at full speed, b) had the sfx: whoosh effect to highlight the speed they were travelling at, c) had a clear effect on the atmosphere/space surrounding it - most likely breaking the sound barrier. Same doesn't go for the small Drizzle. [

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] Spears are a lot bigger. [

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] Want to know why the spears were faster? Sasori pumped more magnetic force into them. [

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] Point? Bigger Satetsu weaponry can be faster than smaller ones as long as Sasori uses the appropriate amount of magnetic force.

not seeing why youre overrating the speed of sasoris attacks,

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just how kakuzu is, they arent getting caught that easily,
worst case scenario, kakuzu can take precautionary measures and

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him having the extra tendrils along with speed faster than old lady chiyo and sakura means that sasori isnt catching him, ever.

The reason I'm ''overrating'' it is above. The spears have shown to be a lot faster than the hearts and without shields to put up, the spears will literally pick them all out as soon as Sasori decides to do so. The scan you linked doesn't particulary mean much to me as it simply jumped up behind Hidan and fired a jutsu at them when they were in mid air. I don't see the bursts of speed or any kind of evasive mobility. Especially since Choji easily tagged two hearts while in his expanded form, although their construction and Choji's attack being simple blunt force managed to let them escape. Your worst case scenario involves the negation of Kakuzu's Domu heart since opening up skin will remove the problem of actually ripping through Kakuzu's skin. Nevermind that he'll be one huge target and Sasori won't have to multi-task as much anymore.

as for gian, well, it required the equivalent of 2 raikiris to be able to cancel it out, meaning that it definitely has the firepower to breach the IS defense,

It's also stated that it's best destructive capability is to gouge a boulder in the databook. Sasori's IS shown both better destruction and defense than that. Especially since Sakura's punch couldn't really do anything to it and it could pulverize the cave rather easily. Nevermind that Gian would end up losing shape and it's electricity going through the iron since it would conduct it. A simple counter is to create rods and re-direct the electricity into the ground. Not saying that it really needs to do that since Sasori can counter Gian by sending a spear flying towards it's way and with far more destructive capacity plus far more weight and the force it was launched at, it will literally cut through it like butter.

No its not, mind you that this iis the same guy who got blitzed by the likes of sai with no reaction whatsoever
his reactions are much slower than kakuzu, meaning that this isnt cutting it,, not to mention that once kakuzu closes in, sasori gets restrained by tendrils or obliterated by either a domu fist, or his elemental attacks, that can come from 4 different directions plus he has to worry about kakzuu himself, Lol he is never changing his puppet from a distance that close,

Is that it? Lets pick out one scenario where someone gets blitzed and say he wouldn't be able to react to such speed in a different scenario? The very fact that Deidara got ''blitzed'', too, despite showing far better reaction before is testimony to the fact that one case doesn't drive home the point. Your case also refers to leg movement and reaction in general. It doesn't prove that Sasori's arm movement and puppetry isn't faster because he's definitely shown better finger and arm movement that allows him to control his puppets at great speed. And he is very much pulling out another puppet. They take an instant to pull out. [

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][

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] This was Chiyo's feat - someone who's puppet skill is slower than Sasori's. Proof? Can't be arsed to write up about Sasori's reaction, speed or observation feats again so I'll just be copy pasting it again.

Spoiler

Sasori hasn't shown any good reaction or observation skills? Uhuh. Lets not downplay him. First of all, he was capable of smacking down a Shuriken thrown at him without even looking at it's direction and looking Deidara. [

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][

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] The likes of Sakura and Naruto are even baffled by his skill. Also, nevermind the fact that Sasori was sitting in Hiruko with a full black cloth over his head. Sasori has shown more than enough fast movement to be able to almost hit Deidara with Hiruko's tail [

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], surprising Deidara despite the fact that Deidara knew he was making him furious and knew of Sasori's highly aggressive personality. Judging from Sasori's reaction ''tch..'', it proves that he wasn't even surprised by Deidara's movement. He just found it a pity that the tail wasn't fast enough to reach Deidara. Not a problem of Sasori's reaction and movement speed, but his tail's movement. Point? Sasori is at Deidara's level in terms of reactions so if Deidara can react to Sasuke like that. There is no reason Sasori shouldn't be able to do so. And it's not like he didn't easily react to Sakura being controlled by Chiyo's strings [

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] when Chiyo managed to move Sakura so close to him from this distance. [

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] And Chiyo couldn't pull Sakura back in time, even stated that Sasori is fast. [

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][

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] Even after Chiyo halts Sasori's puppet with Hiruko's tail [

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], Sasori activates another technique right after and manages to intercept Chiyo pulling Sakura back again. [

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][

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] This proves that Sasori's movements [

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] are immensely fast.

Guess who has faster movement than Chiyo could pull back Sakura the third time [

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][

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] even though she was in the process of moving Sakura back before Sasori. [

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] This is what? Literally the third time in a row he has completely baffled Chiyo - an extremely experienced and hyped up fighter who fought Hanzo all the time - with his movement speed? Kunai can't magically wrap around you when shot out with a rope, which means Sasori wrapped them around Sakura before Chiyo could even pull her back again. Nevermind the fact that Sasori reacted to Chiyo's puppets suddenly flying up to his own while he was deattaching his arm and then countered by fighting against two puppets at once just fine. [

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][

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]

I don't really think I need to prove how fast Chiyo can move her puppets/people she controls, but let me do it regardless. Chiyo managed to fly down her puppet from above here [

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], grab Sakura [

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] and move out of the Satetsu Drizzle's way [

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] despite the databook describing this drizzle as extremely fast and that anything more than a split-second decision can kill you. Chiyo managed to move her puppet from being next to Sakura [

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] to being in front of Sakura with a shield [

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] before the Satetsu Spear striked them down. And Satetsu Spears broke the sound barrier. Proof? [

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] Not only did they have effect on the atmosphere around them, Kishi highlighted their speed with ''sfx: whooosh'' and the fact that they were elognated before striking the ground. That's how they fast they went. Sakura didn't even have the time to react to anything judging by her ''!'' shocked reactiong. Sasori reacted just fine seeing as how he wasn't surprised by Sakura surviving. The only thing he was shocked by was the fact that Chiyo rigged her own body. [

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]

After that Chiyo was one-armed so her control feats weren't as good. [

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] Sakura had a really hard time reacting to Sasori's stuff afterwards seeing as how she fell down while trying to get away. [

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] Only thing that got her out was her evasiveness along with Chiyo's help. Level of evasiveness that Sasuke hasn't showcased. Not like Sasori was uncapable of tagging her when he wanted to. [

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]

Lastly, Sasori reacted to Sakura throwing Chiyo's ball at him at full strenght. He only saw it when it transformed, i.e. was near him. [

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] And by then, it was already this close. [

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] He not only reacted to it, but he also was fast enough to pinpoint a new puppet body and transfer to it without Chiyo and Sakura noticing it. Do I need to remind you how fast that ball was considering it was thrown through Sakura's strenght? Not only was Sakura capable of smashing a large ass boulder, but she literally managed to pull out a whole bundle of wire [

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] in a matter of less than a second before Sasori could strike down Chiyo [

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]. That's how strong she is. Nevermind the fact that she punched back a large Iron Sand construct that immediately hit the other side of the cave in the next panel judging by the vibrations in the water. [

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][

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] Sasori moved out of the way there, too. Oh, and Deidara had full confidence in Sasori's ability to strike down the Kumo Ninja who's name escapes me before he could reach Deidara.

Yeah, yeah. ''No good reaction or observational feats''.

Also, Sasori isn't changing puppets. He's just pulling out another one for a quick counter-attack. A guy who can control one-hundred puppets at once could easily control at least two with no problems.

Domu tanks, or his plausible suiton negates,
kakuzus katon vastly overpowers,
its non factor at its finest

This is another discussion. What you were saying is that Kakuzu could suddenly advance at Sasori and expect to blitz him. He can't. The very fact that he'd have to stop to use Domu in order to tank the flamethrowers already negates this scenario. Why are Kakuzu's Masks being mentioned? If he's gonna try an advance, he's gonna need to have something that helps him to fight off the Iron Sand so they're not really an option to help Kakuzu in this case unless he wants Sasori's Iron Sand following. Albeit, Sasori could always produce more Iron Sand so it'll be following him either way and he'd be bound to have some Iron Sand protecting him from attempts of attack at himself.

Puppets get overpowered and obliterated by elemental attacks,
tendrils may get cut up but kakuzu has the speed to evade them, whilst flamethrowers are non factor as stated above

It negates your scenario that Sasori could suddenly got strangled by Kakuzu after he advances on him. I obviously agree that Kakuzu could back off and overpower them with something, but the blitzing and strangling scenario isn't happening.

he isnt flying off to an extent wherre kakuzu cant get to him,
atsugai can still get him and a precisely aimed gian kills him

Why not? Not saying he's gonna do that, but it's a flyer's choice to do so and the sky is vast. Atsugai can't overpower the force of Sasori's magnetism and the weight of Iron Sand being launched at it since the former could only gouge the earth while the latter could pulverize it, showing which one has more force and weight behind it. It can be blocked by Iron Sand, too. A steel house overpowers a hurricane. Already addressed the Gian point.

To this day i havnt seen what sasori has that lets him breach domu when his arsenal is just based on puppet weaponry

Hopefully, I've convinced you now.

 

[Zexion~]

Spears can't pierce something that is constantly moving, they can only be fired in one direction. Had he fought someone NOT an old lady and a girl scared shitless (at first) His spears could have been dodged. Not to mention if he fires spears at one mask the other's take out the puppet itself.

 

[Varrah]

If I recall correctly, an argument was made by Varrah where Sasori would bypass Domu by shattering it; a diamond can't be scratched but it can be shattered pretty easily. If he utilizes his Satetsu to form a giant hammer, Kakuzu when immobile would be vulnerable to his attacks. And once done, Sasori would be able to tear him to shreds.

That's a horrendous argument. It doesn't become diamond, it's merely a metaphor for a substance which is generally considered 'hard' even though hard and tough are completely different. Regardless, it doesn't make him similar to diamond, and if it did he would have shattered long ago since he survived Matabi's punch and Choji's obese-roll.

I think it is important for me to explicitly state my exact propositions as to why I once thought this starting from the beginning. A proposition may be defined as anything that can asserted or denied, and an argument may be defined as set of propositions in which one or more propositions, the premises, purport to provide evidence for the truth of another proposition, the conclusion. ​

The exact propositions I made were thus: if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

These propositions are hypothetical propositions which has the form "if then q," where p and q are component propositions; that is, a combination of multiple propositions. The "if" component is the antecedent and the "then" component is the consequent. Thus, in the statement "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," the antecedent is "Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond ," and the consequent is "a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu." Hypothetical propositions identify relationships of dependence among things, and do not assert the truth of p or q; rather they mean that the truth of p would be sufficient to guarantee the truth of q. The only way q could fail to be true is for p to be false as well. ​

Now that we understand the logical form of hypothetical propositions "if p, then q," let me show you the inferences that can be made with hypothetical propositions. There are three valid forms of inference that you can consider and two forms to avoid. The first valid form of inference is the pure hypothetical syllogism, and it has the following form:​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

The q in the first premise in the consequent and the antecedent of the second premise. The q serves to link together p and r, which appear together in the conclusion. Any argument of this form is valid. Pure hypothetical syllogisms are used to to describe chain of events in which each event causes the next. Suppose I continue with my initial hypothetical propositions "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," it could take the form of the following pure hypothetical syllogisms: ​

If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.


If a high density configuration or configuration of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu, Kakuzu can be killed.


Therefore, if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then Kakuzu can be killed.​

Again:​

​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

In my above syllogism both premises are hypothetical, and so is the conclusion. At no point do I assert that p, q, or r is actually the case. My reasoning is purely hypothetical; but there is another sort of inference that allows me to derive a nonhypothetical conclusion. ​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond​

​

.

q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

In an argument of this form, the second premise is categorical; it affirms the antecedent of the hypothetical premise. This permits me to infer the consequent, which is also categorical. This type of inference is called a mixed hypothetical syllogism. Any argument of this form is valid because it merely unfolds what is implicit in the meaning of the hypothetical premise. That premise says that the truth of p would be sufficient for the truth of q is true also. If I assume p is true, I may conclude q is true as well. I can also work this in the opposite direction. If I assume that q is false, I can infer p is false for if p were not false, but true, then q could not have been false either. Thus the following mixed hypothetical syllogism is valid:​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.

not -q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu cannot bypasses Doton Domu.

not -p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are not that of diamond.​

In the above case, I denied the the consequent, and that allowed me to deny the antecedent. Again, the conclusion is a categorical proposition. Thus there exists two valid mixed hypothetical syllogisms; the first is called modus pollens: the method of affirming the antecedent, and the second is called modus tollens: the method of denying the consequent. Both methods are valid for their ability to spell out the implications of the hypothetical premise. By using contraposition, I can transform any modus tollen argument into modus ponens:​

If p, then q ← contrapositive → If not -q, then not -p

not -q not -q


not -p not -p ​

By taking the contrapositive of the hypothetical position, but leaving everything else unchanged, I have changed the modus tollen argument on the left into modus pollens on the right. There are two other forms of mixed hypothetical syllogisms, both are invalid:​

Denying the antecedent:​

If p, then q

not -p


not -q​

Affirming the consequent:​

If p, then q

p

q​

Ironically, Apêx calls my "argument" "horrendous" when his reasoning takes the same form as mine.​

That's a horrendous argument. It doesn't become diamond, it's merely a metaphor for a substance which is generally considered 'hard' even though hard and tough are completely different. Regardless, it doesn't make him similar to diamond, and if it did he would have shattered long ago since he survived Matabi's punch and Choji's obese-roll.

 

[Zexion~]

I think it is important for me to explicitly state my exact propositions as to why I once thought this starting from the beginning. A proposition may be defined as anything that can asserted or denied, and an argument may be defined as set of propositions in which one or more propositions, the premises, purport to provide evidence for the truth of another proposition, the conclusion. ​

The exact propositions I made were thus: if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

These propositions are hypothetical propositions which has the form "if then q," where p and q are component propositions; that is, a combination of multiple propositions. The "if" component is the antecedent and the "then" component is the consequent. Thus, in the statement "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," the antecedent is "Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond ," and the consequent is "a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu." Hypothetical propositions identify relationships of dependence among things, and do not assert the truth of p or q; rather they mean that the truth of p would be sufficient to guarantee the truth of q. The only way q could fail to be true is for p to be false as well. ​

Now that we understand the logical form of hypothetical propositions "if p, then q," let me show you the inferences that can be made with hypothetical propositions. There are three valid forms of inference that you can consider and two forms to avoid. The first valid form of inference is the pure hypothetical syllogism, and it has the following form:​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

The q in the first premise in the consequent and the antecedent of the second premise. The q serves to link together p and r, which appear together in the conclusion. Any argument of this form is valid. Pure hypothetical syllogisms are used to to describe chain of events in which each event causes the next. Suppose I continue with my initial hypothetical propositions "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," it could take the form of the following pure hypothetical syllogisms: ​

If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.


If a high density configuration or configuration of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu, Kakuzu can be killed.


Therefore, if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then Kakuzu can be killed.​

Again:​

​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

In my above syllogism both premises are hypothetical, and so is the conclusion. At no point do I assert that p, q, or r is actually the case. My reasoning is purely hypothetical; but there is another sort of inference that allows me to derive a nonhypothetical conclusion. ​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond​

​

.

q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

In an argument of this form, the second premise is categorical; it affirms the antecedent of the hypothetical premise. This permits me to infer the consequent, which is also categorical. This type of inference is called a mixed hypothetical syllogism. Any argument of this form is valid because it merely unfolds what is implicit in the meaning of the hypothetical premise. That premise says that the truth of p would be sufficient for the truth of q is true also. If I assume p is true, I may conclude q is true as well. I can also work this in the opposite direction. If I assume that q is false, I can infer p is false for if p were not false, but true, then q could not have been false either. Thus the following mixed hypothetical syllogism is valid:​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.

not -q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu cannot bypasses Doton Domu.

not -p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are not that of diamond.​

In the above case, I denied the the consequent, and that allowed me to deny the antecedent. Again, the conclusion is a categorical proposition. Thus there exists two valid mixed hypothetical syllogisms; the first is called modus pollens: the method of affirming the antecedent, and the second is called modus tollens: the method of denying the consequent. Both methods are valid for their ability to spell out the implications of the hypothetical premise. By using contraposition, I can transform any modus tollen argument into modus ponens:​

If p, then q ← contrapositive → If not -q, then not -p

not -q not -q


not -p not -p ​

By taking the contrapositive of the hypothetical position, but leaving everything else unchanged, I have changed the modus tollen argument on the left into modus pollens on the right. There are two other forms of mixed hypothetical syllogisms, both are invalid:​

Denying the antecedent:​

If p, then q

not -p


not -q​

Affirming the consequent:​

If p, then q

p

q​

Ironically, Apêx calls my argument "horrendous" when his reasoning takes the same form as mine.​

I think you've just proven every stereotype ever made about you in one post .-.

IS is hard...Domu is harder ----> Domu wins.

 

[Varrah]

I think you've just proven every stereotype ever made about you in one post .-.

IS is hard...Domu is harder ----> Domu wins.

I didn't assert anything.

[Edit] — It could be argue that Sasori's bodily composition could allow him to create a configuration of Satetsu that is harder than Domu.​

 

[Zexion~]

I didn't assert anything.​

:lol Was joking.

I'll read it over and hopefully understand it when I return.

 

[Funky Tiger]

I think that iron, due to its much greater density than diamonds, can easily shatter diamonds. So if Kakuzu's Doton Domu has the characteristics of a diamond as you guys say, then Sasori's Iron Sand can easily shatter it to pieces. Now, if Kakuzu's shield was made of osmium or quark-gluon plasma, Sasori can't even hope to finish off Zexion's waifu Kakuzu.

 

[Worm]

Kakuzu's skin isn't diamond. It is literally magic hardening one's skin. Never has it been stated that Domu takes on the Diamond's hardness at face value. Domu is literally just called Diamond Morph in English, but we've already been through this and as to why that doesn't literally mean what it means.

So unless someone actually provides proof as to why Kakuzu's Domu takes on actual properties of a diamond and not just hardness, the whole ''Diamonds can be crushed'' argumentation doesn't fit.

a) Domu isn't a diamond
b) even if it, hypothetically, was a ''diamond'', I don't remember there being specific proof that it takes on different attributes of an actual diamond

That said. I still believe Sasori's Iron Sand is fully capable of destroying Domu as I've argued in this thread. Just saying the ''diamonds can get crushed'' argument isn't what proves it.

 

[Rιver]

I think that iron, due to its much greater density than diamonds, can easily shatter diamonds. So if Kakuzu's Doton Domu has the characteristics of a diamond as you guys say, then Sasori's Iron Sand can easily shatter it to pieces. Now, if Kakuzu's shield was made of osmium or quark-gluon plasma, Sasori can't even hope to finish off Zexion's waifu Kakuzu.

Much truth in this post.

 

[Praydara]

I think Sasori's arsenal isn't specialized to get through durability like Kakuzu's. He has a lot of bladed weapons, and uses those to their fullest with poisons and stuff, but when it comes to ultra-hard material his only real option is either smashing his enemy with Iron Sand or using his gas-based poison. The problem is, Sasori is also fairly durable - getting punched by Sakura, who we all have to acknowledge is inhumanly strong, only resulted in his joints getting messed up, which was quickly fixed. He can also switch his body to another puppet's when in a tight spot, which doesn't require any handseals or movement...

I think Sasori can take it extremely high-diff. If he can avoid Kakuzu's attacks for long enough, which is possible through Iron Sand and his body's durability, he can eventually poison his hearts.

 

[Apêx1]

I think it is important for me to explicitly state my exact propositions as to why I once thought this starting from the beginning. A proposition may be defined as anything that can asserted or denied, and an argument may be defined as set of propositions in which one or more propositions, the premises, purport to provide evidence for the truth of another proposition, the conclusion. ​

The exact propositions I made were thus: if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

These propositions are hypothetical propositions which has the form "if then q," where p and q are component propositions; that is, a combination of multiple propositions. The "if" component is the antecedent and the "then" component is the consequent. Thus, in the statement "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," the antecedent is "Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond ," and the consequent is "a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu." Hypothetical propositions identify relationships of dependence among things, and do not assert the truth of p or q; rather they mean that the truth of p would be sufficient to guarantee the truth of q. The only way q could fail to be true is for p to be false as well. ​

Now that we understand the logical form of hypothetical propositions "if p, then q," let me show you the inferences that can be made with hypothetical propositions. There are three valid forms of inference that you can consider and two forms to avoid. The first valid form of inference is the pure hypothetical syllogism, and it has the following form:​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

The q in the first premise in the consequent and the antecedent of the second premise. The q serves to link together p and r, which appear together in the conclusion. Any argument of this form is valid. Pure hypothetical syllogisms are used to to describe chain of events in which each event causes the next. Suppose I continue with my initial hypothetical propositions "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," it could take the form of the following pure hypothetical syllogisms: ​

If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.


If a high density configuration or configuration of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu, Kakuzu can be killed.


Therefore, if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then Kakuzu can be killed.​

Again:​

​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

In my above syllogism both premises are hypothetical, and so is the conclusion. At no point do I assert that p, q, or r is actually the case. My reasoning is purely hypothetical; but there is another sort of inference that allows me to derive a nonhypothetical conclusion. ​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond​

​

.

q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

In an argument of this form, the second premise is categorical; it affirms the antecedent of the hypothetical premise. This permits me to infer the consequent, which is also categorical. This type of inference is called a mixed hypothetical syllogism. Any argument of this form is valid because it merely unfolds what is implicit in the meaning of the hypothetical premise. That premise says that the truth of p would be sufficient for the truth of q is true also. If I assume p is true, I may conclude q is true as well. I can also work this in the opposite direction. If I assume that q is false, I can infer p is false for if p were not false, but true, then q could not have been false either. Thus the following mixed hypothetical syllogism is valid:​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.

not -q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu cannot bypasses Doton Domu.

not -p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are not that of diamond.​

In the above case, I denied the the consequent, and that allowed me to deny the antecedent. Again, the conclusion is a categorical proposition. Thus there exists two valid mixed hypothetical syllogisms; the first is called modus pollens: the method of affirming the antecedent, and the second is called modus tollens: the method of denying the consequent. Both methods are valid for their ability to spell out the implications of the hypothetical premise. By using contraposition, I can transform any modus tollen argument into modus ponens:​

If p, then q ← contrapositive → If not -q, then not -p

not -q not -q


not -p not -p ​

By taking the contrapositive of the hypothetical position, but leaving everything else unchanged, I have changed the modus tollen argument on the left into modus pollens on the right. There are two other forms of mixed hypothetical syllogisms, both are invalid:​

Denying the antecedent:​

If p, then q

not -p


not -q​

Affirming the consequent:​

If p, then q

p

q​

All of this can be summarised with: "If Doton: Domu is structurally similar to diamond then it can be shattered by Sasori's high density configurations of Satetsu. If it's not structurally similar to diamond, and the 'diamond morph' was merely a metaphor for something which is commonly construed to be tough when it's only hard, a high density configuration may or may not have an effect on Doton: Domu." No need for all these unnecessary words which only add to the illusion of intelligence you create.

Ironically, Apêx calls my "argument" "horrendous" when his reasoning takes the same form as mine.​

I was discrediting/insulting your argument because claiming Kishi genuinely meant it was structurally similar to diamond, or actually diamond, is fallacious. Why?
1. Because he wouldn't be immune to physical attacks.
2. Because the DB states all attacks would reflect off of him due to his diamond body.

If it was diamond, that would clearly not be the case, as Diamond cannot be immune to physical attacks when a real life hammer would easily smash it. Matabi is a Bijuu with more then enough power to crush diamond. Yet when Kakuzu took the hit he wasn't even scratched (by the end of the fight). Regardless, Doton: Domu would've not added any protection to him against any attacks hes stopped, nor would it have helped him when he knocked down the large steel door. So the assertion that there is even a possibility for Doton: Domu being diamond wouldn't hold regardless of your hypothetical syllogisms.

 

[DrProof]

I think it is important for me to explicitly state my exact propositions as to why I once thought this starting from the beginning. A proposition may be defined as anything that can asserted or denied, and an argument may be defined as set of propositions in which one or more propositions, the premises, purport to provide evidence for the truth of another proposition, the conclusion. ​

The exact propositions I made were thus: if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

These propositions are hypothetical propositions which has the form "if then q," where p and q are component propositions; that is, a combination of multiple propositions. The "if" component is the antecedent and the "then" component is the consequent. Thus, in the statement "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," the antecedent is "Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond ," and the consequent is "a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu." Hypothetical propositions identify relationships of dependence among things, and do not assert the truth of p or q; rather they mean that the truth of p would be sufficient to guarantee the truth of q. The only way q could fail to be true is for p to be false as well. ​

Now that we understand the logical form of hypothetical propositions "if p, then q," let me show you the inferences that can be made with hypothetical propositions. There are three valid forms of inference that you can consider and two forms to avoid. The first valid form of inference is the pure hypothetical syllogism, and it has the following form:​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

The q in the first premise in the consequent and the antecedent of the second premise. The q serves to link together p and r, which appear together in the conclusion. Any argument of this form is valid. Pure hypothetical syllogisms are used to to describe chain of events in which each event causes the next. Suppose I continue with my initial hypothetical propositions "if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu," it could take the form of the following pure hypothetical syllogisms: ​

If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.


If a high density configuration or configuration of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu, Kakuzu can be killed.


Therefore, if Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then Kakuzu can be killed.​

Again:​

​

If p, then q

If q, then r

If p, then r.​

In my above syllogism both premises are hypothetical, and so is the conclusion. At no point do I assert that p, q, or r is actually the case. My reasoning is purely hypothetical; but there is another sort of inference that allows me to derive a nonhypothetical conclusion. ​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond​

​

.

q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.​

In an argument of this form, the second premise is categorical; it affirms the antecedent of the hypothetical premise. This permits me to infer the consequent, which is also categorical. This type of inference is called a mixed hypothetical syllogism. Any argument of this form is valid because it merely unfolds what is implicit in the meaning of the hypothetical premise. That premise says that the truth of p would be sufficient for the truth of q is true also. If I assume p is true, I may conclude q is true as well. I can also work this in the opposite direction. If I assume that q is false, I can infer p is false for if p were not false, but true, then q could not have been false either. Thus the following mixed hypothetical syllogism is valid:​

If p, then q ~ If Doton Domu's attributes are that of diamond, then a high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu bypasses Doton Domu.

not -q ~ A high density configuration or configurations of Satetsu cannot bypasses Doton Domu.

not -p ~ Doton Domu's attributes are not that of diamond.​

In the above case, I denied the the consequent, and that allowed me to deny the antecedent. Again, the conclusion is a categorical proposition. Thus there exists two valid mixed hypothetical syllogisms; the first is called modus pollens: the method of affirming the antecedent, and the second is called modus tollens: the method of denying the consequent. Both methods are valid for their ability to spell out the implications of the hypothetical premise. By using contraposition, I can transform any modus tollen argument into modus ponens:​

If p, then q ← contrapositive → If not -q, then not -p

not -q not -q


not -p not -p ​

By taking the contrapositive of the hypothetical position, but leaving everything else unchanged, I have changed the modus tollen argument on the left into modus pollens on the right. There are two other forms of mixed hypothetical syllogisms, both are invalid:​

Denying the antecedent:​

If p, then q

not -p


not -q​

Affirming the consequent:​

If p, then q

p

q​

Ironically, Apêx calls my "argument" "horrendous" when his reasoning takes the same form as mine.​

You're doing too much.