Edo Hiruzen (KG65) vs. Deidara (unorthodox)

[KidGamer65]

Once again we're overestimated the size of his elemental attacks especially his lighting

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a fairly skinny stream thats expected when where talking about a lighting strike Deidara C1 birds dodges them with ease

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not only were the arms much bigger than Hiruzen's lighting attack they can move to counter an attack even with all that mobility they we're still effortlessly dodged by those birds Hiruzen lighting stream does nothing especially when Deidara can use multiply c1 bombs at a time

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so even if he manages to get about 2 he has to defend against 15 if not more and with the speed Hiruzen is blown to pieces if he's to persistent.

Dude...lmao. Can we please drop this argument? You make no sense. The thinness of the Raiton Stream doesn't really affect much considering I never said that only a single elemental attack will be used to counter C1 since it can home in on it's target. Then there's the fact that Hiruzen's elemental jutsu are the same as Shinsuusenju's. Shinsuusenju was about to wipe out the alliance there. So your little "They are only half as big as the total clash" is obviously wrong. They are large enough to at least reach down to where the shinobi were. Deidara isn't dodging it. No one ever said that he only had to use the Raiton element to counter anyway. That would just defuse the bombs. Anything else would obliterate them.

Why are you still using Deidara making a dozen palm sized C1 bombs as proof that he can use the same amount, and even more, when it comes to larger and different types of bombs? Literally makes no sense. Deidara is not using 15 C1 homing birds at once. He's using 2, maybe a bit more. But that's it.

What's hilarious about this whole "counter" is that I was referring to the fish bomb. Which you mentioned in your post. Fish Bomb being operating on land is fanfic in itself. Let alone the fish bomb being fast enough to evade Hiruzen's attacks. Stop giving C1 birds feats in air to a C1 FISH on land. There is literally no basis for this comparison. C1 Fish bomb is countered with ease on land. Let alone him using 15 or more. That's pure nonsense.

Deidara killing himself with c1 is a pure joke he detonated a c1 attack

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Deidara explains how when detonating a c1 explosive the chakra of his c1 attack can protect

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meaning c1 killing or even damaging Deidara is a joke and with his

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he gets his distance then can take flight.

What's funny is that you say it can't damage him, but he was shown with minor damage and scuffs after the explosion. Not to mention we have no idea how that C1 chakra saved him. Whether or not it made him immune or whether or not it just increased his durability to the point where he could take a bomb of that level and not be blown to smithereens. Him being able to survive the weakest (second weakest?) C1 bomb he's ever used in this series isn't proof that he'll survive the Fish Bomb if he were to be caught in it's explosion. None whatsoever. Then there's the fact that you think Deidara w/ C1 chakra can take a Fish Bomb w/ zero damage, but you argue that weaker C1 would plow through the Doton Wall. What a joke.

Deidara's bomb never goes off. The fish bomb that is. C1 guided birds are blocked by Doton Wall or elemental attacks while the original and some other clones prevent Deidara from getting too high up in the air.

Doton wall is fodder the birds simply fly right around it why its still being mentioned here is beyond me furthermore. his c1 explosions are very capable of destroying it

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Enma's cage is still being brought up Deidara birds fly right into it through the square blocks

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Bijuu getting new abilities has nothing to do with there durability instead of trying to downgrade Deidara's explosion you should give credit to Sasuke for tanking an attack like that.

I've already explained why they won't be able to fly around it in an earlier post. Repeating the same statement isn't a counter. Saying it's fodder isn't a counter either. Refute that, or don't bother posting at all.

C1 being bigger than the Wall doesn't mean that C1 is strong enough to take down the wall AND kill Hiruzen. What's equally hilarious as the stuff above, is that my counter referred to the only bomb you mentioned right here. The fish bomb. So why are you now switching up your argument as if you never mentioned the fish bomb? I guess you realized how dumb an argument it was.

-Enma's cage? Never mentioned it against the C1 guided birds.
-Never said new ability=better durability. I said Sanbi's better feats in the war means that it's much stronger than what Kishimoto showed it to be when Deidara defeated it. War Sanbi easily tanks a bomb far weaker than the one that Hebi Sasuke tanked with his body. Lmao. Please don't argue otherwise.

I have debunked your elemental attacks especially the lighting the other elements can be counter with a c1 explosion giving Deidara his room to make a bird which he has shown he can do fairly quickly even after his arm is ripped off

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attacks it would not slow him down not one bit. Hiruzen only has room for about 5 clones using 1 of the elemental attacks hiding like a mole makes nearly all of them useless aswell ill get to Enma later on in my post. Yea your right the starting distance is clearly in Hiruzen's favor avg starting distance is like 60m but even with that blip your still going to lose.

Not really. You tried to say they weren't as long as I claimed they were, but to hit the SA...they have to be. The width isn't that important when he has other attacks supporting the Raiton, something I've also mentioned. But I see no counter here. The other attacks won't be countered by C1. They blow right past C1 and take Deidara out. The scale of regular C1 birds is pathetic in comparison to Hiruzen's jutsu.

I know that he can use 5 clones, but I never said that they'll all use elemental attacks. I said 1 or 2 can use elemental attacks while the rest support with clones of Enma.

@bold: LMAO! Tell me another joke pal. Where in the hell do you see matches start at 60m? That's long range. Not the average starting distance. 30 is near average. That's a larger distance than most battles in the Manga started at. Not in favor of Deidara=/=In favor of Hiruzen.

The hand is indeed Larger than those elemental attacks especially the lighting one, did you just say those hands we'
re not

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Gaara arms movements suggest otherwise furthermore they we're chasing Deidara why would they just stop? Those bombs clearly move on their own like all of his bird bombs do. The only ones that dont move on their own are the ones he throws even the spider bombs jump and crawl on the enemy

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Deidara making his hand sigh saying cha is much to fast for Hiruzen making a hand sigh then spitting up an entire wall,

I meant to say it's fingers, but it doesn't matter anyway. And no, they aren't larger than Hiruzen's attacks.

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For those who can't see the above image.

Spoiler

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Full scale of Hiruzen's attacks when it comes to length, minus some of the bursting from the middle.

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For those who can't see the above image.

Spoiler

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Gaara's in comparison to him and Hiruzen and Hiruzen's techs. The different is obvious as all hell.

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There is time in between Deidara making the action, Deidara completing the action, and Deidara's bomb going off. Gaara was able to set up an entire sand sphere before he received the blunt of the attack. Sasuke was able to completely evade C1 when Deidara used it against him despite him being mid air and in the middle of an attack on Deidara. Not to mention Hiruzen doesn't have to spit up the wall. He can use it how Kakashi uses it. By having it erupt from the ground. Then there's the fact that Hiruzen can take a step back and then do this to minimize the chances of him getting caught in the explosion.

Furthermore that is a terrible plan Hiruzen would be focusing on dodging them rather then trying to anticipate when Deidara blows them up. Deidara could also just let his birds get near Hiruzen then lift up the hand sign to blow them but does not to force Hiruzen to use his mud wall prematurely then once they get around it blow them up Hiruzen trying to anticipate when Deidara will blow them gets him no where but dead. The fish bombs are utilized for the large aoe not for they're attack just a way for him to get to the skies they're a distraction nothing more.

Why would he be focusing on dodging the birds when he knows that he can't dodge the birds? Lmao. If he does it how Gaara did it then this isn't going to work regardless. All he needs to do is use it right when the bomb is near him. Predicting Deidara isn't the only necessary option nor did I mean that he'd sit and watch Deidara to predict his movements. I was just pointing out the moment where shields could be made. And that's right when the bomb is near him as that is when Deidara will blow it up.

He'd have to know what Hiruzen was doing anyway even if he wanted to do what you are saying he would do. But he has zero idea. Stop mentioning the fish bombs. They are useless on land.

Your harping on Deidara not getting into the sky is pretty pathetic to be honest. His elemental attacks are to straight forward with no guidance Shukaku's hands are larger and faster proof is that 3 hands we're created from a sand wave that puts the sand villiage to shame in size itself

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and we all know how large the

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so those hands were pretty larges also it had arms aswell i think i can get into an estimation how a single hand of a bijuu is larger than that fake Shinsuusenjutsu that was larger then those elemental attacks . Then you claim a elemental attacks such a spitting fire and water have no openings please the bird swirl right around the fire, water,lighting, wind, and the useless earth to get to hiruzen also Hiruzen is not hitting 20 of them even with 5 clones spitting so its all in a fail effort to began with.

What's pathetic is that you can't read. Never said he wouldn't get in the air. I specifically stated that he won't get high enough to evade all of Hiruzen's attacks.

Lmao. Already countered the Sand Hand nonsense. Smh. What's even funnier is that despite the comparison drawn between them and Gaara, you are actually crazy enough to believe that they are larger than the whole sand village. Lmao. Especially since nothing you showed in that picture shows that wave being larger than the sand wave. Not to mention 3 hands being made from that sand=/=Those hands being the same size or even near it individually. Then there's the fact that Deidara's birds slipped through the openings, something I already addressed. So they didn't "completely evade the entirety of Gaara's hands" so this isn't even a feat that allows you to say they run circles around his elemental attacks. Not sure what the nonsense in this part of your post is, but it's not a counter. The evade the elemental attacks, they need to evade them all in their entirety. There are no gaps in the attacks that they can slip through and that's a fact. Not sure what:

he bird swirl right around the fire, water,lighting, wind, and the useless earth to

This is supposed to mean here. But it's irrelevant and useless. You haven't even given me significant proof that they easily evade one let alone multiple. And please cut that 20 guided c1 bomb nonsense out. When I get a panel of Deidara doing it, or legit reasoning for him being able to do it then we can talk.


LMAOOO! What the hell? A Bijuu's hand larger than Zetsu's Shinsuusenju? I didn't think you were going to go full retard here of all places at a time like this, but I guess I was wrong.

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-Kakashi compared to Bijuu Hand.

Already posted a scan showing SS and the elemental attacks. The attacks dwarf Hiruzen. The Bijuu's hand does not dwarf Kakashi and Obito, who are bigger than Hiruzen. Smh. Yet somehow a single hand of a Bijuu is larger, or anywhere near for that matter, than SS?

Still talking about this doton wall huh? Raikiri is a bad example same as chidori to focused furthermore raikiri would have went through the wall if Kakashi used his body instead of using raikiri as a punch, now if rasengan would have hit that doton wall it would have exploded or went tumbling down the same applies for Deidara's bombs. We've seen kid sasuke who was inexperienced with chidori

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and you expect me to believe an adult Kakashi using raikiri cant go arm deep into a wall made of rock when he was choping bijuu cloaks for play? nice try though. Deidara bombs blow them apart or once again they just go right around them lol.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Nothing but assumptions here. Sasuke blowing those holes in a giant boulder proves my point clown.

1. Doton Wall is much more durable than regular rock. Please don't ever make that comparison again. Never.

Earth Release: Earth Style Wall (土遁・土流壁, Doton: Doryuu Heki)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Sandaime Hokage

An earthen barrier, rising up in an instant!!

This ninjutsu defends oneself against an incoming attack by creating a solid wall of earth. Chakra is converted to earth within the body and then spit out. This earth then instantly rises up and takes form. The barrier itself is also coated with chakra, making its strength incomparable to that of a normal mud wall. Because of the earth's special characteristics, the wall is highly resistant against, for instance, fire and water. Also, for a Hokage-class shinobi it is possible to create a vast volume of earth...!!

[picture of the Sandaime Hokage performing a handseal]
[picture of the Sandaime Hokage spitting out the earth]
↑→The Sandaime Hokage displays a great performance by changing his chakra into a vast volume of earth and forming it into a gigantic wall!!
↓It perfectly blocks even the fury of the Nidaime Hokage's Water Release ninjutsu!!
[picture of the Sandaime Hokage using the Earth Style Wall to protect against the Nidaime Hokage's Water Dragon Bullet]

A perfect blockade!!

2. Sasuke's Chidori blew those holes into the rocks. Yet Raikiri couldn't do the same to Doton Wall.

3. Hiruzen's Doton Wall is larger than Kakashi's.

End result. C1 does not get past it.

Deidara bombs do not blow up with just simple contact they need to be detonated by Deidara or crushed with a strong force flying into a wall is not going to bring on such a force, furthermore Hiruzen putting a mud wall in exact calculation so that the birds have no choice but to slam into the wall is a stretch especially giving that Deidara bird's have legs to land on the wall with then fly around it and he's being engaged by multiple birds they're not just flying in one direction they're coming from above side to side everywhere but from underground mud wall is way to one dimensional to do anything here once again this doton wall shit falls short.

Who said they will? When they get close, Deidara will detonate them. That simple. Hiruzen puts up the wall, and the explosion is blocked.

Lmao, what the hell are you even talking about? Not only has he never shown to use that many C1 birds at once. They all come from Deidara and they all head towards a single target. They are homing missiles. Not remote control airplanes. This isn't Shin we are talking about here. They can't come from multiple directions because Deidara can't attack from multiple directions at once.

If Doton Wall doesn't work, there are still elemental attacks. C1 is not a major factor.

A katon will not detonate his bombs or atleast not quick enough for him to be completely untouched once they explode the explosion would cause hiruzen atleast to be knocked off his balance slowing down his fire spitting process with that happening it would leave his wind clone alone to get bombarded also the bombs that came towards the doton wall would travel though it like they did Gaara's sand

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can travel through doton techniques same as his smaller creatures Gaara did not notice that even though he can sense through his sand Hiruzen being focused on blowing away and blowing up Deidara bombs certainly will not blowing his back up.

Who said they'd detonate his bombs? They'd melt them or burn them into nothing. Considering it's clay he's using they'd probably harden and be useless. Though I'm pretty sure that if a bomb were to get hit by a fire, it'd blow up. Lmao. Whatever happens, Hiruzen doesn't get it. It's obviously not going to soar through the flame and hit Hiruzen anyway.

So no, he doesn't get knocked off his balance or anything. Not sure why his Wind clone would be bombarded when their attacks are the things clearing up the bombs. Lmao. Then there's the bold....lmao. Wtf? Sand and Rock are completely different materials. Do you even know why Deidara's bombs were able to enter the sand?

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Deidara didn't move anything. He put it inside the sand when it was coiled around his arm and then Gaara brought that sand back to himself and used it to guard himself and thus Deidara was able to blow it up.

Being able to use Doton doesn't mean that his birds can magically enter the wall and come out of the other side. Not sure if this is worse than you claiming a Bijuu's hand>SS used by Zetsu in size. Then there's the fact that Gaara can only sense through his special sensor sand. Not all his sand is sensor sand.

C2 attacks will not need agility when they're fast enough to dodge his elemental attacks

Do you even realize how little sense this makes? If they don't have any agility at all, then instead of weaving away from the attacks when they are launched at it, it gets hit. Learn what agility is please.

Sasuke did not bother to try a counter attack why because his fire style would be to slow for him to form same with his chidori variants instead he relied on his speed which got him no where.

Just an assumption. Not to mention Chidori and Katon have little to do with anything here when:

1. Hiruzen's elemental attacks are stronger than Sasuke's.

2. Sasuke didn't know he could counter his bombs with Raiton at that point in time. He only realized it later on. Using Chidori Senbon against Deidara's C1 was

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He only suspected there was a weakness after that.

Being too slow is just an assumption from you, one with no evidence of course.

They're also faster than hebi sasuke considering the bird caught him fairly easily and did you say Sasuke jumped he was clearly thrown

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he caught his balance when he hit the ground clearly not a jump Hiruzen who is not as well balanced as Sasuke takes a tumble.

Can we stop with the assumptions? Anyway, the bold is irrelevant since I never once said Hiruzen will dodge C2. Why are you even bringing up these points?

C2 birds are the size of Deidara's standard flying bird which is by far his fastest the can dodge Hiruzen elemental attacks all day long he dodged something far bigger and faster

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Same size as=/=Same type of bird. Lmao. What's next? You are going to claim Deidara's C1 bird can fly as fast as C2 can move? Let's stick with feats please and not terrible transitions of feats. Already countered this Shukaku's hand BS. Not only is it not larger, they went through the openings in the hand. Meaning they didn't evade the entirety of the hand. They got by because it had cracks to slip through.

Leaving him sore slows him down puts him and pain meaning his body is nowhere near the durability level of a 4TK naruto which is not even tough enough to withstand a raikiri.

Slows him down? How do you slow a shield/weapon down? lmao. Doesn't even make sense. His durability being less than KN4 is irrelevant, nor has Raikiri ever cut through a v2 Jins cloak. He only cut the tails. When he came in contact with the cloak....

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ZERO Damage. Lmao. ZERO.

Kusanagi being legendary does not make it better than your run a the mil blade especially when it failed to cut anything impressive. I should not this blade is special becuase it can extend and retract also be use by the users command its cutting feats is lower than that of a raikiri which had no problem dispatching a bijuu chakra cloak. Sasuke using ration on his blade believed it was tougher than orochimaru's kusanagi having been called legendary means nothing when it has the cutting feats of your standard samurai blade.

This is the 3rd time you've said something extremely dumb. What's worse is that you ignored my post. If it's cutting ability weren't superior to regular swords, then Oro wouldn't have said "EVEN Kusanagi can't cut him" I don't care about it's feats when statements have made it clear that it's better than a regular blade.

Enma is as hard as diamond, yet he said Kusanagi would leave him sore. Where is the evidence any regular blade can do the same? Lmao. Just stop it. You are making yourself look foolish.

Based off what exactly Sasuke has tanked a forest size explosion with those wings shrugged off fire styles and withstood amaterasu for some time yet he gets pierced by this blade strong bias on your side, but lets say this is true this means nothing because Deidara's bombs destroy with more of a radius while penetrating attacks such as a blade is focused per square inch. No one said anything about him dying enma clearly has a pain tolerance and if clashing with orochimaru's blade makes his body sore Deidara's C2 messes him up badly.

C2 is not a forest sized explosion. For the love of God. Are you blind? He shrugged off Katon? Big deal. Amaterasu would've burned him into nothing. Why are you even comparing KATON with a sword? Being able to tank Katon doesn't mean that you can tank a blade to your back. Hidan shrugged off Asuma's Katon when it hit him. Didn't really do that much damage. Guess he can tank a sword too.

You do know that Deidara's bombs not being as focused as blades proves MY point right? Not yours? Lmao. That only makes it easier for Kusanagi to run Hebi Sasuke through.

Enma is a weapon. Him getting sore doesn't mean he'll revert to normal. The only way to stop him is if he dies. That simple.

Enma's cage is like a jungle gym its not like enma's durability is doubled because he has more of him out they're is like if a bunch of humans form a cage around someone a bullet that could go through 1 human would be able to go through them all its just the number of people might get lucky and get the bullet stuck in one of them. If oro would have jabbed at the cage enma would still have been sore your logic is makes no sense.

Considering the attack that it's trying to block isn't focused towards one spot of the cage, having more of him is only going to soak up more damage.

Do you have any idea how explosions work? When something explodes the explosion is like a balloon being blown into it expand until it reaches max capacity Enma has windows all through his defense the explosion is much larger than the cage so it engulfs it with swallowing Hiruzen in it This is how Hiruzen enma's cage would look compared to a C2 explosion

Lmao, no it wouldn't. A signficant portion of the explosion is blocked. An explosion is not water. It's not going to just pass through the cage and hit Hiruzen in it's entirety. Then there's the fact that the gaps in between are

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. The explosion is blocked. It being dwarfed changes nothing. Not to mention I already mentioned how Sasuke saved his entire body with a wing despite not being able to cover his entire body with said wing.

it would go all through enma's cage just like that. Why are you trying to take away from a great durability feats Sasuke has shown he already withstood a fairly large explosion with little damage in his

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and one of those wings does not need to coil sasuke up like a cocoon to be effective especially when Deidara was

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meaning the heat alone was enough to vaporized his

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and if the explosion reached sasuke from the distance Deidara detonated it Just a little closer Hiruzen who's durability pales in comparison to sasuke's is roasted thus dies.

My God...

1. He didn't tank that. Please read the Manga.

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He flew upwards and dodged it, or he jumped. He obviously didn't tank that considering C2 blew off his wing a panel later. What's worse is that he didn't even guard against that one and you are suggesting he was strong enough to take it with zero damage. Jokes.

2. Deidara blowing them up before they making contact doesn't prove that the heat alone is what vaporized his wing. There is the actual explosion, and the heat from said explosion. Sasuke was caught in the ACTUAL explosion, thus he got his wing blown off.

Sasuke who is much faster than Hiruzen had no choice but to go the defense up until his shuriken jutsu Deidara uses rapid fire c2 attacks is happening considering the distance it throws you also the radius it has Sasuke was far from the bird with it exploded yet wing was vaporized Hiruzen trying to engage it only gets him killed faster.

-Sasuke didn't have the arsenal nor the knowledge to simply counter the techniques. Stop comparing the two.

-Rapid fire C2 isn't happening. There is a reload time for him as he has to suck clay from the tail and make the next bomb. Hiruzen suffers no recoil since he can block the attack unlike Sasuke, who had to dodge it, and then block it while getting injured.

What? the explosion obviously gets bigger and stronger hence why Sasuke was able to survive the first 1 yet the second one required him to use curse and risk his wind to survive and do i even need to compare the explosion radius of the two that dragon had 7 more lumps meaning 7 more explosions that would dwarf the size of the one we've seen in the manga and hiruzen certainly does not survive or dodge anything above that level.

Never said it doesn't get bigger and stronger. I said there is no proof Deidara can make it as large he pleases nor is there any proof that it'll continue to get larger and larger. Do you even know how C2 works? The more clay that is taken off from the bottom, the stronger it gets. If Deidara only uses one lump for each bomb, it'll be the same size. So no, simply using them in succession isn't going to make them increase in size.

The first one didn't even hit him anyway. He dodged it. The second one was the one that blew off his wing. The landmine is what he went Curse Mark to evade.

Deidara does not need to detonate his bomb in Hiruzen's face for it to be effect once he launches it then explodes it it not only gives him room to shoot more bcause the explosion is blocking Hiruzen's Los and the element even slowing his birds down is lighting which is easily dodged read above same with the Enma cage argument. Once Deidara's C2 dragon shoots its second bird which it does Hiruzen is thrown across the battlefield or vaporized like Sasuke's wing was furthermore did i not say the C2 dragon would be self operated while the real Deidara strikes Hiurzen from his standard flying bird He is not blocking them both.

Having knowledge is only relevant when you can prevent someone from an attack as long as Deidara gets to the sky which he will Hiruzen simply is overwhelmed.

He won't get too far. Something I've already shown. Nothing more to say on this topic.

Irrelevant since Sasuke had nothing in his arsenal that could stop the bird to begin with.

Which only helps my point. He couldn't stop it so he had to evade. Hiruzen doesn't. Stop comparing the two.

Wrong Sasuke actually did see the

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he has sharingan which can see chakra no matter if its underground or not, he simply was to engaged on the air attacks he could not steer clear of the landmines while also trying to dodge the air assault same things happens to Hiruzen in this fight.

It's funny how often you attempt to spit on the Manga with your opinion. If he saw the landmine, then why did he step on it? Smh. Being able to see it doesn't mean he saw it in the instance I'm referring to. And considering that he

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, I can tell you that he didn't see the landmine there.

Landmines won't even happen here. So it doesn't matter.

Deidara has this fight planed from the beginning Hiruzen having full intel hurts him more then it does Deidara because he will be to busy focusing on how to stop Deidara from flying he wont even notice a fake the same thing happened to a much more observant ninja named Sasuke uchiha he knew the landmines where underneath his feet he just could not focus on both effectively enough to not get caught Hiruzen is no Sasuke and you banking on his nonexistent sensing abilities does not help your case someone like sasuke who could actually pin point where the landmines would be could not avoid them and the air attacks Hiruzen is blown off the map.

Lmao. You sound foolish telling me that Hiruzen won't be able to stop Deidara from flying and notice his clone when Hiruzen has his own clones for that very same reason. Couldn't care less about Sasuke since Sasuke was alone in the fight with no one to watch his back. Focusing on Deidara means that he had ignore Tobi. Hiruzen knows what Deidara fights like, and he has clones to prevent C2 from being set up underground.

The fact you are resorting to this only shows me how weak a counterargument you have. Especially since what Sasuke was unable to do once the landmines were set up is completely irrelevant since Hiruzen won't let them get set up at all. Already provided evidence for his sensing. You never refuted it.

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"SFX: Sniff".

Why in the hell are you even talking about Hiruzen not knowing where the landmines were set up when I've already explained why and how the landmines will never even be set up to begin with? Lmao.

Sasuke knew were the land mines were at so that is no excuse he could not evade it because the aoe was to large to dodge and thats just that, He could not counter attack from two reasons his shuriken we're not set up yet and Deidara fired his birds and such good succession of each other it was simple impossible for him to do anything.

No, he didn't know where they were all at. Being able to see them doesn't mean he saw all of them at that moment in time. Stop with this nonsense. If he really knew where they all were from the get go, then he wouldn't have almost blown himself up by stepping on one. Then there's the fact that even if he knows where they are, if they are all around him, he won't be able to dodge effectively without stepping on one. So you have no point regardless.

Hiruzen wont put down his cage until the dust clears so he can actually prove he's save and when another bird rains down on him before the dust clear he is stuck in a lose lose situation.

What's funny is that the dust cleared and everything before Deidara was able to fire off his second bird, in canon.

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Lmao. Irrelevant point that has been settled by Manga Fact.

But he does get his distance so it works perfectly

Already countered.

Deidara can use his fish bombs as a throwing tool so they do not need to travel by themselves and using 20 of them at a time would provide good coverage from all of Hiruzen's clones especially if he uses them in a 360, then Deidara would travel underground with his Ultimate escape jutsu.

This 20 fish bombs at once bullshit has been countered on multiple occasions. Read above. Not repeating myself.

We've seen his birds have no problem moving through earth material so they are not slowed down by the ground once that happens he escape from the ground with his bird while leaving an unnoticed clone in the ground Hiruzen would be focused on Deidara flying to high into the sky to even be bothered with the notion he would even try to use landmines considering how ineffective he think they might be.

Lmao. Using sand as proof that they can move through Earth was probably the best joke I've heard all day. Countered above. The funniest part is that they didn't even move. Dumb luck is why Deidara got Gaara then, and he even admits it himself.

Already countered the nonsense about Hiruzen ignoring the landmines.

Once Deidara gets his distance he then summons his c2 dragon while his homing c1 distract Hiruzen before Hiruzen can take action he lures himself back into the battlefield luring Hiruzen's attention while his clone has traveled to the distance he flew collectiong the package (Landmines) which the dragon has spitting up, and that is basically the end of the beginning for Hiruzen.

That never happens, so this part doesn't even matter. Just a ridiculously biased scenario that one could only come up with if they made Hiruzen seem to be an incompetent fool who would ignore large parts of the enemy's arsenal just because they think so.

That is why Deidara would summon his C2 dragon once he got his distance so it would not be taking out by Hiruzen to quickly and once Deidara summoned it he would engage Hiruzen with a barrage of attacks image

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or a masked explosion so his dragon can get his distance. Once his Dragon his high enough and starts to shoot its c2 birds it pretty much over for Hiruzen. Deidara clone would have gotten into the ground with his first attempt on getting into the air so Hiruzen is not seeing shit. C1 is no a poor attempt at a distraction bird moving at the speed they do would cause Hiruzen some trouble him having 5 clones and 2 of the 5 having the proper elemental attacks to pose a threat to the birds moving that fast and swiftly definitely causes Hiruzen some trouble. Your giving Enma to much credit Hiruzen cannot use his elemental jutsu and enma at once his elemental jutsu requires a hand sign to be used Enma in stick form needs to be held and he cannot hold it while his hands are lock in the jutsu formation.

Except he'd never get his distance. Your only points are fanfic 20 fish bombs or c1 bird bombs being used at once. The only legit one was the fish bomb, and that is easily countered. The rest is stuff I've already addressed above, specifically this nonsense about Hiruzen not noticing Deidara's clone despite having:

-Intel
-Clones of his own.
-Sensing abilities.
-Sense of smell that is competent enough to allow him to detect people.


I suggest we spend less time making biased scenarios, and more time reading my arguments. I already stated that Enma could be cloned and wielded by Hiruzen's clones. That was in my first post, AND my second post. Some clones wield Enma, some use elemental attacks. What's so hard to grasp?

Also you have to choose Enma cannot be used as an effective attack if the cage is up and then Hiruzen has no defense once he's using Enma as strickly offense.

Read above.

But he will not if someone has full intel on Deidara the first thing they would think to do is stop him from getting into the skies in that is and will be Hiruzen main priority as i explained above Deidara sets this up pretty easily (To the judges i should not get points taken for referring to my counter to the same post so me saying as i explained above should be acceptable.) Except 1 clone cannot defend against all of Deidara's c1 attacks especially when they can only use 1 elemental jutsu at a time 20 birds gets clean around that some may get caught but he's not hitting them all before he gets got. The C2 dragon is far out of Hiruzen's reach when it is summoned Deidara had no problem flying village radius against Gaara Hiruzen and no shape or form is catching Deidara or stopping him from getting to far away from him so that c2 dragon can be effective.

If they have full intel and clones, then their first move would be to stop him from getting in the air AND stop him from setting up landmines. Stop with this nonsense BS of Hiruzen ignoring the fact he has clones and focusing on Deidara alone, knowing that he'd be setting up landmines while he does so.

Except they can, and I've explained why above. And if that won't cut it, then he makes another clone, and that definitely cuts it. The 20 birds nonsense has been addressed a million times. Deidara never flew village radius against Gaara. They already started at a high elevation. He only had to fly a bit higher to get away from Gaara's attacks. Not to mention Gaara only used basic sand to attack him. Nothing compared to Hiruzen's attacks, and Enma.

Enma is not Gin ichimaru's bankai it does not extend instantly nor does it have the speed extending to catch Deidara, As if stated Hiruzen cannot swing 5 enma's and shoot 5 elements at the same time not physically possible but if he could Deidara has got out of much sticker situation then these straight forward attacks

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also Deidara does get high Hiruzen will also need to fend off 20 c1 birds that will cause him to slow down we've already seen how Deidara gets in the sky the moment he jumps on his bird

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Doesn't need to be Gin's Bankai to catch Deidara when Hiruzen is using more than one attack from more than one angle. Gin's Bankai would tear Deidara's bird a new one in a matter of seconds anyway.

-Never said he'd use 5 elements and 5 Enmas. Read more carefully.
-You haven't shown how he'll get high.
-20 C1 birds being used at once is fanfiction. What's funny is that you've ignored the fact that he can't fit that many in his hand, and the time it takes to make the birds. Fanfic fanfic fanfic.
-Deidara is only that high because he started at a high elevation. If they were both on the ground, it'd be clear that the distance he traveled there is insignificant compared to the elemental attacks and Enma's extension range.

No Enma is not even that fast Orochimaru already reacted to an extending Enma

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Enma is just a powerful staff but it never lands on Deidara.

Never said it'd be an extending blitz, nor did I say that only one Enma would attack. So this point is irrelevant.

Calm down Kidgamer no one is ignoring your post, in this post you claim the clones work together to defend off Deidara's C1 attacks yet you already made a statement saying one clone for each duty i did not even mention C2 because the clones cannot even protect against those assaults. Each clones has 5 pair of c1 birds to take care of they're not helping each other unless it to risk their lives that simple,

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are Deidara 4 winged birds.

This is that same 20 bombs nonsense that is nothing but fanfic. Read above for counters to C1. His 4 winged birds are also C1, one of the main ones that I was addressing anyway. This has all been addressed.

This high is

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well above village level i haved explained in my whole post how Deidara gets that high he far faster than all of Hiruzen's Long range attacks he has the dodging skills to do so considering he dodged shukaku's hands also Deidara is adept at dodging and fighting at the same time read above child.

What's hilarious about this whole thing is that you think throwing the term "above village level" means anything when it doesn't take much to fly above a village. Then there's the fact that Deidara can't effectively fight Hiruzen from that high. All his attacks would be easily evaded. The buildings look small let alone the people who are dwarfed by the buildings.

Everything else has been addressed.

All of his c1 birds start off near the same size

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Nope.

Deidara homing birds are actually smart

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not seeing how that making them easy targets they're distractions Hiruzen moving his head changing the course of his elemental attacks only helps Deidara more and iv already counter on how they cannot counter c2.

What? "Smart" obviously doesn't refer to intelligence. It's laughable that you'd even imply a bird with no consciousness or sentience is somehow intelligent. They are easy targets because they head right for the target at a ridiculously high speed, nor have they shown to be as agile as C1. So stop giving them C1's feats.

A Katon is a straight forward attack the move in such a linear fashion they're easily dodged. Only village level attack i said he dodged was those shukaku hands nothing else.

Yes. A Katon is. MULTIPLE attacks aren't. Not sure how many times I have to say this. That attack isn't even village level. Learn what village level is. That's not even larger than a Bijuu let alone Village level in scale. Size comparison is above.

Please stop trying to downscale his dodging abilities furthermore that does not help your case Gaara can bend his sand to his whim Elemental attacks are to 1 dimensional they go in one direction and never changes just keep on going they're useless. Well unless Hiruzen turns his head which he will if he wants to counter the incoming birds giving Diedara all his running room and firstly all those attack we're larger than Hiruzen's Elemental jutsu.

Lmao. Never compared the two. I only said Deidara didn't do what you said he did. That simple.

by the times it takes Hiruzen to form 5 clones 5 enma's Deidara has his 20 c1 bombs set up using them in the 360 fashion then going underground works soundly to Hiruzen trying to go ham lol.

Oh boy. Read above. Already countered.

Thats only the fire all the elements have different shapes. That is not good enough to catch Deidara his fire never catches that size if he is moving it to the side Deidara flying to the side then up and down easily counters that then on top of the fact that his bombs will not burn that quick by fire which burns things slow even amaterasu the get close enough to explode in Hiruzen's face. Larger than Bijuu child stop Obito is a ant compared to the palm of Gyuki's hand let alone the body

Different shapes. The same goddamn size. Lmao. The bold is a baseless assumption. The birds are made of clay. They get burned to ashes. The rest has been addressed.

Yet you expect anyone to believe its larger than a bijuu, and i sure as hell hoping your talking about the katon edo Madara used against onoki's division because if your talking about the juubi size katon them im done here. Wind does nothing to Dei's bombs same with water and earth fire burns to slow to be a factor what else is they're nothing so Deidara bombs are not exploding so easily in his face.

What's funny is that you mention Obito, but Obito is an ant compared to Hiruzen's attacks. And no, I'm talking about the one he used on onoki's division.

-Wind blows them away.
-Water knocks them away.
-Earth knocks them away.
-Fire burns them up, "Burns too slow" is not a counter.

The bird eats his c3 bomb then flys toward Hiruzen itself Deidara does not need to be on his bird ya fool.

Explained why this can't work.

Wrong he does not need to be anywhere near Hiruzen's face to kill him a bird not even close to the full power of his c2 dragon detonated whiles above Sasuke

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c3 which is a certified village buster Does not have to be anywhere near that close to whipe Hiruzen clean off the map.

Those obviously aren't miles. Not to mention I've explained why C3 happening isn't a possibility regardless.

Still talking about ration and Enma this far into the post huh? iv literally killed any hope of enma doing anything here yet its still being brought up? That ration stream is to small it gets dodged easily Enma is not doing a thing Enma trys to poke at the clay and it

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keeping Enma where its post to be then exploding and it does not need to be anywhere in Hiruzen's face its village level Hiruzen is not covering that distance in time. Shuriken are not guided either so they're dodged that simple.

This is all stuff I've addressed above. What's funny is that you assumed Enma would poke at the clay bird when the obvious thing to do is cut it apart. DB translation in my first post states Enma can cut like a blade, in a sense. Then there's the fact that Hiruzen has smashed the Shinju's branches on multiple occasions. He'd do the same to Deidara's bird.

Henge: Kongonyoi (Transformation: Adamantine Staff)
Name: Henge: Kongōnyoi, 変化・金剛如意, literally "Transformation: Adamantine Staff"
Type: No rank, Supplementary
Users: Enkōō: Enma
The Monkey King Enma turns himself into a large staff to be wielded by the Sandaime Hokage. This staff is harder than diamond and can extend to whatever length Enma or the Sandaime wishes. Despite its appearance, it can slice through any solid objects as easily as any blade. Also, in this form, Enma can "un-transform" areas of the staff into various body parts such as an eye, an ear, a leg, or even an arm.

All of the chakra be inside all of his clay creatures once they're spitting up by his hands all he does is expand them and he has expaned without touching them or he lets his bird rides as close as it needs to then detonates it either way Hiruzen gets killed.

That's not how it works for C3. We clearly see that Deidara has to fill it up with C3 Chakra. If it just expanded like the rest, then it wouldn't have taken a whole conversation and a flashback for him to complete it. It's really that simple.

Grasping at straws are we that is not a little while the only reason it took that long is because he was talking to much

Not really. He was only talking before and after he set up the bomb. Not during.

Your getting desperate i can tell that was nothing more than a lecture a thought process from Kankuro in the real world barely any time had passed furthermore Why cant deidara use that while moving? It takes Deidara no time to make clay bombs including c3 it was just a jump in between scenes he can even use c4 in a small time gap your desperate and if Deidara is that high Hiruzen is not catching him.

1. He was talking to someone.

2. A flashback isn't the same as a mere thought process when it comes to length.

3. He can't attack while using it, and I've already explained why he won't be easily evading Hiruzen's attacks with his bird.

C3 takes no prep thats your fanfic furthermore Hiruzen cannot catch Deidara so he cannot defeat him if he was trying to prep anything. Ration stream hitting is never going to happen sorry iv already killed that argument to many times today. He will and he does get that high read as above.

Read above. Nothing more to say here. Just a repeat of what was already stated.

Never once did i say his bird or any of his other explosive attack would take a bite out of another bird i said Deidara makes a clones that clones then stands on top of Deidara's standard flying bird eats a chuck out of it and while's its getting fatter the bird is closing the distance between it and Hiruzen that same clones Deidara blows up into a massive explosion killing Hiruzen, That is what i said can you understand child.

Oh. Then he counters this the same way he'd counter any homing bird. By taking out the bird before it gets to him.

What sensory ability i hope not the one you gave him here i work strictly off feats we're not jumping into conclusions here. sense of smell? what is Hiruzen akamaru now? what would Deidara clay even smell like to begin with. Why would Deidara's clone bite the bird before it closes the gap between him and Hiruzen first? and how does he block it with a puny mud wall lol i already killed this enma cage defense aswell get a new line this post was all types of stupid.

-Posted feats that prove he has a sense of smell.
-Posted evidence that he can sense. You never refuted it. Don't care for your opinion on the matter if it's not supported with a counter argument and some evidence.
-What it smells like is irrelevant. It has a smell, so that's all that matters.
-The explosion was pathetic in size when used against Kakashi and co. A scan has been posted I believe. Mud wall easily blocks it for reasons stated above.
-The rest has been addressed.

Irrelevant they're dodged shuriken are the most easiest evaded tools in the ninja world same with kunai furthermore in all those example you gave they're were some type of physical bond connecting the user to their tool Hiruzen launching them breaks the bond thus no lighting the only one who attacked stayed infused was darui because suigetsu body was acting like an ignition to his lighting keep the bolt a float. C2 blows those shuriken out the sky with its birds nice try though.

C3 isn't homing. So no. Lmao. C2 has zero agility feats once it becomes that large. So once again, no. Especially since they can be used with the shadow shuriken clone technique. As for the rest of your post:

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Read. Read. Read. And don't make excuses. How the hell does the bold even make one bit of sense? Did you pull this out of your ass or what? Suigetsu's body being water doesn't mean that the lightning chakra will stay. Zero proof, none whatsoever. Water conducts lightning, and that's all.

And this panel shuts this whole dumb part of your post down anyway.

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Lmao. Get outta here with that nonsense. Not sure why you are mentioning C2 blowing it away when the C2 homing birds are the target, and when they get hit, they are nullified.

Hiruzen's Databook stats should not be even brought to the table he has a 5 in every category and he has not even shown any genjutsu we've seen taijutsu far above his so ill dismiss this post all together.

This literally doesn't change anything. But thanks for dismissing evidence w/o any counter argument. Only makes your argument look worse. Never showing Genjutsu is irrelevant when he was stated to be a master. Not sure why you are even mentioning this shit when I only mentioned his Ninjutsu stat.

Ill give you the taijutsu cqc nonsense since its the most illogical outcome of this fight. address all of your sensory points did not know they were much more to address Hiruzen got snuked by tobirama when he was in infinite darkness he relied on his getting whacked to determine a location where was his sensory then? im not going to harp an sensory when it has not been on his side at all throughout the series besides sensing 3rd greatest chakra force ever.

I've already provided evidence you never refuted. Not to mention he knew their position. He was getting smacked around because he couldn't see their attacks. Being able to sense doesn't change that.

 

[Unorthodox]

.........................................

 

[Zexion~]

Ok well round ends today, so if his post isn't up we'll just judge as is.

 

[Beans2]

Ok well round ends today, so if his post isn't up we'll just judge as is.

He has to post by midnight tonight. If he posts after that, it's up to the judges whether or not they incorporate his last post into their judgment.

 

[Unorthodox]

Judge this already

 

[Lariatoo]

Man...
Great debate! Cheering for both of you!
(Im gonna be biased and hope that KG wins that for my man Hiruzen but both did great!)

 

[Icelerate]

.........................................

I take this as a concession. Fine, KG wins.

 

[Apêx1]

My Judgement;

Unorthodox

Spoiler

Pros:

-You did well in countering Enma’s Staff extend, or at least, its lack of any apparent speed feats. You shut it down every time he mentioned it which was good.

-You were capable of making good points for Deidara’s small C1 birds and how they could bypass Hiruzen’s defences. Had you used strategy and kept the birds at 2-3 like shown those points could’ve made a huge difference.

-You made an excellent point when you gave evidence for Deidara’s foot speed. I thought you could've had Deidara going into the sky there but for whatever reason you didn’t keep expanding on that idea and moved to a next one as if you were rushing it all.

-You exploited the difference in speed between Deidara and Hiruzen well and used valid examples like Sasuke and Gaara as a testament to his superior speed.

-You still made good points for how Deidara could potentially go airborne in this match, regardless if I was convinced or not (was extremely close).

Cons:

-You should’ve dropped the fish bomb after the very first post. You kept bringing it up and grasping at straws and it worked against you pretty badly.

-You should’ve utilised Deidara’s Nendo Bunshin feints more effectively, as they are by far the most dangerous aspect of his arsenal. Byakugan and Sharingan users can't notice them, so Hiruzen surely won't either.

-Deidara can charge whatever chakra he chooses into his clay, C1, C2 and C3. [

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] That point would’ve easily allowed you to bust any doton wall and Hiruzen along with it

-You took the most insane outlier for biju comparison with a human. Humans have always looked dramatically larger compared to Bijuus, in exception of that single scan you posted, which made you seem like you were grasping at straws.

-You kept ignoring the fact that Enma can make more clones. He can defend and attack at the same time, and is not exclusive to one.

-You implied that Deidara can somehow simultaneously control more than 15 homing missiles at once. Not even asians can multi-task like that.

-Underground attacks by centipedes would’ve shut Hiruzen down for good, and you could’ve mentioned the speed in which Deidara can form his C1 bird.

-You made a huge amount of assumptions which didn’t work out very well for you. I would’ve given you credit if you were capable of convincing me in whatever way that said point held some merit.

Kidgamer

Spoiler

Pros:

-You countered the Fish bombs well and proved how they’re unviable in this match-up.

-Great refutations for the difference in size between Gaara’s hands and the ninjutsu that Hiruzen utilised.

-Convinced me that chakra enhancement on Hiruzen’s weapons should be possible given his prestige and the randoms who have shown it in the past, and for whatever reason he neglected it so that added to your overall control of this debate.

-Pretty much shut down C4 and C3 completely, to the point where he didn’t even mention them again.

-Kusanagi is far more powerful than normal blades. You were capable of explaining that well with the examples you provided i.e. Oro surprised that it didn’t pierce Naruto’s v2

-You were more than capable of debunking Unorthodox’s misconceptions and unviable points, which made you seem like you had an upper hand throughout the debate.

Cons:

-You made the claim that War Sanbi can easily tank an underwater explosion simply because it has better feats, and disregarded the fact that underwater explosions are far more powerful since the water becomes compressible and causes huge internal damage to anything, including Sanbi. Should’ve just claimed underwater explosions are not to be compared with normal explosions.

-You tried to suggest that because Chidori couldn’t pierce through the Doton wall, an explosion can’t simply knock it down without the need to destroy it. There's no comparison to draw out between the two.

-You claimed the Enma's Cage could lessen the damage of an explosion, when the pressure difference wouldn’t change at all given that it has holes on all sides. You got lucky Unorthodox didn't persist on that particular point.

-You made the statement that Deidara’s C3 needs prep time, but it is not actually the case. C3 is pretty similar in prep to all other jutsu he uses, except for the fact that it uses C3 chakra rather than C1 or C2 chakra. This is a common misconception.

-Adamantine is not diamond. Adamantine is an unbreakable substance whereas Diamond can easily be shattered with a hammer. Diamonds are only special because they can’t be scratch, but they aren’t very tough. That point was rather badly conveyed and could’ve been exploited by Unorthodox.

Verdict

Spoiler

I believe Kidgamer had the edge in this debate, even if I ignore the fact that Unorthodox was missing a post. His overall structure was far better. His arguments were much more clear and conveyed their points effectively. On the other hand, Unorthodox seemed like he was rushing the debate too much and thus, in my opinion, overlooked a lot of important aspects he could've exploited in this match-up. Kidgamer's arguments were more convincing overall, although I felt that Unorthodox could've potentially won the debate after his first post. But the difference in quality between Master Unorthodox's first post and second post is astounding, with the former being much, much better. #Deidarasolosmiddiffdoe

 

[Unorthodox]

I take this as a concession. Fine, KG wins.

what i did not concede stop trying to find the easy way out in judge

 

[Unorthodox]

My Judgement;

Unorthodox

Spoiler

Pros:

-You did well in countering Enma’s Staff extend, or at least, its lack of any apparent speed feats. You shut it down every time he mentioned it which was good.

-You were capable of making good points for Deidara’s small C1 birds and how they could bypass Hiruzen’s defences. Had you used strategy and kept the birds at 2-3 like shown those points could’ve made a huge difference.

-You made an excellent point when you gave evidence for Deidara’s foot speed. I thought you could've had Deidara going into the sky there but for whatever reason you didn’t keep expanding on that idea and moved to a next one as if you were rushing it all.

-You exploited the difference in speed between Deidara and Hiruzen well and used valid examples like Sasuke and Gaara as a testament to his superior speed.

-You still made good points for how Deidara could potentially go airborne in this match, regardless if I was convinced or not (was extremely close).

Cons:

-You should’ve dropped the fish bomb after the very first post. You kept bringing it up and grasping at straws and it worked against you pretty badly.

-You should’ve utilised Deidara’s Nendo Bunshin feints more effectively, as they are by far the most dangerous aspect of his arsenal. Byakugan and Sharingan users can't notice them, so Hiruzen surely won't either.

-Deidara can charge whatever chakra he chooses into his clay, C1, C2 and C3. [

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] That point would’ve easily allowed you to bust any doton wall and Hiruzen along with it

-You took the most insane outlier for biju comparison with a human. Humans have always looked dramatically larger compared to Bijuus, in exception of that single scan you posted, which made you seem like you were grasping at straws.

-You kept ignoring the fact that Enma can make more clones. He can defend and attack at the same time, and is not exclusive to one.

-You implied that Deidara can somehow simultaneously control more than 15 homing missiles at once. Not even asians can multi-task like that.

-Underground attacks by centipedes would’ve shut Hiruzen down for good, and you could’ve mentioned the speed in which Deidara can form his C1 bird.

-You made a huge amount of assumptions which didn’t work out very well for you. I would’ve given you credit if you were capable of convincing me in whatever way that said point held some merit.

Kidgamer

Spoiler

Pros:

-You countered the Fish bombs well and proved how they’re unviable in this match-up.

-Great refutations for the difference in size between Gaara’s hands and the ninjutsu that Hiruzen utilised.

-Convinced me that chakra enhancement on Hiruzen’s weapons should be possible given his prestige and the randoms who have shown it in the past, and for whatever reason he neglected it so that added to your overall control of this debate.

-Pretty much shut down C4 and C3 completely, to the point where he didn’t even mention them again.

-Kusanagi is far more powerful than normal blades. You were capable of explaining that well with the examples you provided i.e. Oro surprised that it didn’t pierce Naruto’s v2

-You were more than capable of debunking Unorthodox’s misconceptions and unviable points, which made you seem like you had an upper hand throughout the debate.

Cons:

-You made the claim that War Sanbi can easily tank an underwater explosion simply because it has better feats, and disregarded the fact that underwater explosions are far more powerful since the water becomes compressible and causes huge internal damage to anything, including Sanbi. Should’ve just claimed underwater explosions are not to be compared with normal explosions.

-You tried to suggest that because Chidori couldn’t pierce through the Doton wall, an explosion can’t simply knock it down without the need to destroy it. There's no comparison to draw out between the two.

-You claimed the Enma's Cage could lessen the damage of an explosion, when the pressure difference wouldn’t change at all given that it has holes on all sides. You got lucky Unorthodox didn't persist on that particular point.

-You made the statement that Deidara’s C3 needs prep time, but it is not actually the case. C3 is pretty similar in prep to all other jutsu he uses, except for the fact that it uses C3 chakra rather than C1 or C2 chakra. This is a common misconception.

-Adamantine is not diamond. Adamantine is an unbreakable substance whereas Diamond can easily be shattered with a hammer. Diamonds are only special because they can’t be scratch, but they aren’t very tough. That point was rather badly conveyed and could’ve been exploited by Unorthodox.

Verdict

Spoiler

I believe Kidgamer had the edge in this debate, even if I ignore the fact that Unorthodox was missing a post. His overall structure was far better. His arguments were much more clear and conveyed their points effectively. On the other hand, Unorthodox seemed like he was rushing the debate too much and thus, in my opinion, overlooked a lot of important aspects he could've exploited in this match-up. Kidgamer's arguments were more convincing overall, although I felt that Unorthodox could've potentially won the debate after his first post. But the difference in quality between Master Unorthodox's first post and second post is astounding, with the former being much, much better. #Deidarasolosmiddiffdoe

Ahhhh, i respect your choice you can see the difference in my first post vs my second i killed it in the first one, but i knew i would be a little sloppy and the 2nd i even said that before i posted it usually i use images to blend with my text to make it more exciting. Not going to lie i rushed the second post because i thought i could end this easier than i actually could i did look over alot of arguments i think but #No excuses it stings to know i could lose this i seen myself in the finals really.

ill take what i learned from this and carry it on to my next debate whenever that maybe.

 

[Apêx1]

Ahhhh, i respect your choice you can see the difference in my first post vs my second i killed it in the first one, but i knew i would be a little sloppy and the 2nd i even said that before i posted it usually i use images to blend with my text to make it more exciting. Not going to lie i rushed the second post because i thought i could end this easier than i actually could i did look over alot of arguments i think but #No excuses it stings to know i could lose this i seen myself in the finals really.

ill take what i learned from this and carry it on to my next debate whenever that maybe.

Yea your first post was beast. I think it would've been really close if the second was similar, but great job anyways man.

 

[DrProof]

Dope debate. Would have quit though because wall of teeeeexxxxt. Y'all have heart.

 

[Unorthodox]

If i lose the debate tourny has just lost a star

 

[Lord Tywin]

Judges are in for a treat, man. Those posts are long as ****.

 

[Valhorus]

A bunch of fanboys and friens grouped up for a debate lel , judges clearly a biased for their favorite guy kidgamer and arei gnoring the truth , the truth my friends is that Unorthodox is simply the best debater out there and you guys hates to admit but that is the truth , everyone else are a bunch of fanboyzz cheering for their favorite character and a friend , all hail Master Unorthodox .

 

[RustledJimmies]

I take this as a concession. Fine, KG wins.

Lol someone is lazy.

 

[Icelerate]

Lol someone is lazy.

Unorthodox is the one who is lazy.

 

[RustledJimmies]

Unorthodox is the one who is lazy.

Blasphemy, don't dare insult the Prophet of Lord Sasuke.

 

[Icelerate]

KidGamer's First Post​

Spoiler

C1
I agree that Hiruzen can counter C1 easily via the methods you listed. It would be better if you had highlighted on the most chakra efficient method in countering C1 though.

C2
I agree that raiton streams should be able to nullify incoming missiles considering despite being guided, they'll run right into Hiruzen as explained by you. I also agree that if worst comes to worst, Enma cage should be able to tank it as it is more durable than CS2 Sasuke's wings by hype and common sense. I agree that unlike Sasuke, Hiruzen can make clones so he can engage the other Deidara clone, keeping him busy and not allow him to plant C2 mines and then take out the clone.

Based on the range of Hiruzen's element attacks and the height at which Deidara fought Sasuke with his C2 clay dragon, I agree that Hiruzen can take down the clay dragon rather easily if Deidara opts to fight at that height. Your three pronged attack with two Enmas and a raiton stream was well thought out and exploited but you should have posted a meaningful comparison to prove that this would be too much for Deidara to dodge. You stated that while Deidara is flying higher, Hiruzen will be giving chase but failed to explain how Hiruzen can give chase when he can't increase in elevation.

C3
I agree that C3 is easily countered because it is a linear projectile and while it is falling down, Hiruzen can nullify it. Deidara could prematurely detonate it before the raiton hits but you mentioned that Deidara can't afford to do so or else he'll get caught in the blast.

C4
You said that Sasuke was able to stay out of the range of C4 but said Hiruzen would replicate that same feat because he has full knowledge but you claimed Hiruzen is far slower than Sasuke so your claim is questionable but still plausible. You later on went to prove that Hiruzen is a sensor and Deidara's C4 has a good amount of prep so I guess your claim that Hiruzen can escape C4's cloud is valid. You also gave another counter to C4 by simply blowing it away. I did like how you made use of Hiruzen's edo body to prove that it is very possible for there to be no effect due to lacking a bloodstream.

All in all, due to multiple counters, this section was very solid.

CQC
Like you said, nothing needs to be said here and you gave some obvious reasons as to how Hiruzen will win the fight if/when it turns into a close range battle.

Enma
I liked how you exploited Enma's ability to clone himself, its defensive capability and its immense range.

Unorthodox's First Post​

Spoiler

C1
I liked your strategy of Deidara gaining more distance with a fish bomb whose AoE was proven to be pretty big. With all the dust and lethality of the attack, it forces Hiruzen on the defensive and gives Deidara cover. The cover part is useless if Hiruzen turns out to be a sensor.

Clay birds were shown to be faster than Gaara's Shukaku arms and small enough to get through Hiruzen's Enma cage, thus make it detrimental for Hiruzen to be inside it as opposed to an advantage. With their speed and small size, Unorthodox convinced me that they can dodge Hiruzen's elemental attacks and his shuriken. I agree that an earth wall can be blown apart by the fish bomb while simultaneously allowing a clay bird to pass through unhindered.

C2 Missiles
While you proved that they are faster than Sasuke who can dodge most elemental attacks but due to the fact they home towards their target, I'm not convinced they'll sidestep Hiruzen's attacks as a homing missile does not simply sidestep an incoming obstacle. It only changes direction if its target does. You claim Deidara will prematurely explode C2 but what stops Hiruzen from neutralizing it with raiton and if Deidara explodes it too prematurely, he'll either hurt himself or Hiruzen can easily evade the resulting explosion or block it with a small doton wall to save chakra.

I do agree that Hiruzen's Enma cage will end up preventing Hiruzen from going on the offensive but he does have clones.
I strongly disagree with the Kusanagi being an ordinary blade when both the manga and databook hype it to be legendary. Also making Enma sore is doing no real damage to Enma itself. I do agree that the holes inside the cage will allow a good amount of the explosion's energy to pass through, hurting Hiruzen. I also agree that repeated C2 explosions will be the end of Hiruzen and Enma, provided Hiruzen lets him blow them up.

How would the heat of the explosion damage Hiruzen especially when he is an edo and when the explosion hasn't generated much heat anywhere in the manga? How would an edo get killed by being thrown around the cage? Also I don't agree with Hiruzen not being able to uncage himself before they get hit by another C2 missile considering Sasuke could throw a shuriken towards Deidara before that happened and dispelling a transformation or a clone tech is much faster than physically throwing a shuriken.

Unorthodox's Multi Pronged Strategy - C1 and C2 Combined
Basically you said that after Deidara uses his fish bomb to keep Hiruzen on his tip toes, Deidara will gain distance and fly on his C1 bird. Once enough distance is gained, Deidara will summon his C2 dragon which will be far from Hiruzen and in the air while a Deidara clone preps mines. All the while this is happening, the real Deidara will pressure Hiruzen. This seems like a brilliant strategy for now, however, you underrated Hiruzen's clones and said they'll be useless without explaining why.

For now, I think that Gaara's sand is faster than Hiruzen swinging Enma so I think Deidara can dodge Enma. Even still, you failed to counter KG's multipronged strategy where two Enmas are used to box Deidara in and an elemental attack to finish him off.

I can agree that those fast C1 birds can overwhelm Hiruzen if they can attack from different directions.
Enma
You underrated Enma a lot such as its durability and speed to undo a transformation. You said that by extending Enma, it will become heavier so logically slower but fail to realise that manga logic is different as Chouji's punch doesn't become slower when he enlarges his arm and fist.

Hiruzen's elements
You are underrating their size and failed to counter KG's strategy of boxing Deidara in and clipping his wings. Sure he can make another one but Hiruzen just does it again.

C3
I agree that Deidara can get distance. Your strategy has Deidara's clay bird swallow C3 but didn't show where it ate Gaara. Also does Deidara commit suicide or does he send a clone to do this while the real Deidara chills? I guess this is a plausible strategy if it is actually possible.

Hiruzen's chakra sensory abilities
While I agree that detecting Rikudo Madara's chakra doesn't grant chakra sensory abilities, you didn't refute KG's other proof where he shows that Hiruzen has to have knowledge on chakra signatures to use his telescopic technique.

CQC
I agree Deidara wouldn't attempt CQC but you didn't convince me that it would be a close fight in CQC as dodging weapons/blitz attempts while retreating doesn't show CQC skill but shows your speed, reactions and ability to retreat. Also you didn't show how Hiruzen stalemated with Oro when KG already showed Oro getting manhandled.

KidGamer's Second Post​

Spoiler

C1
I don't agree that the fish bomb can't provide a distraction for Deidara to fly away from Hiruzen just because Hiruzen's scale is humongous. As a matter of fact, Hiruzen's scale being humongous could possibly allow Deidara to conceal himself even easier. I do agree that Deidara will have to wait some time before exploding the fish bomb due to its immense AoE which gives Hiruzen the opportunity to defuse it.

I agree that downing the Sanbi isn't that great of a feat but not for the reasons you stated which are completely wrong. How is the Sanbi being wild make it less durable? Bijuu getting better abilities later on is just an assumption and even if it holds, it doesn't have anything to do with durability. The real reason why Deidara's feat against the Sanbi isn't that great is because it targeted the beast's eye. C2 not taking out Hebi Sasuke doesn't mean Hiruzen isn't going to sweat as he doesn't have CS2 wings or Oro's white snake powers.

Why can't Deidara evade Hiruzen's elemental attacks by going underground if he is on the ground?

C1's mobility and speed
You brought up a good point that Gaara's Shukaku arm was smaller than Hiruzen's elemental attacks. You also brought up the point that Deidara's C1 birds went through the finger openings and that no such openings exist in Hiruzen's elemental attacks. You also pointed out that Deidara makes a handsign to make the C1 explode which can give Hiruzen time to erect an earth wall to block the explosion regardless of its homing nature because once it explodes, it no longer moves manually. You mentioned why Unorthodox brought up the fish bomb to blow up the earth wall but he did so in order for the fish bomb to blow up the earth wall followed up by the birds. I think you misunderstood Unorthodox's strategy. You also brought up the strategy of defending from multiple angles which works but uses up a lot of chakra.

You are correct that C2 is no problem considering they are larger and have less maneuverability than C1.

Enma's Durability
You were spot on in correcting Unorthodox as to why the Kusanagi isn't an ordinary blade in offensive power. You also explained how making Enma sore isn't a big deal especially when the sword itself is legendary.

You explained that the bulk of the explosion will be blocked by Enma cage despite its holes because Sasuke wasn't covered entirely by his wing but he managed to survive it with a bunch of scuff marks. I think this is off because the holes in Enma leave more gaps than Sasuke's wing and the fact that Sasuke is already more durable than Hiruzen so a lessened attack would still deal more damage to Hiruzen than Sasuke.

C2's offense
You made a great use of Hiruzen's immortality which means burns won't do anything to him. You also analysed the condition that Sasuke was in which was worse due to land mines being buried whereas Hiruzen won't have to worry about them. You also mentioned that the cage is made up of Enma cloning himself and that cancelling out a clone is much faster than shooting a missile.

The only problem I have with part is that you said Hiruzen will use multiple elemental attacks to counter Deidara's C2 barrage but in your first post, you said Hiruzen will use a grand total of 3 to 4 elemental attacks even though he is using multiple just to counter C2.

Countering Unorthodox's Multi pronged strategy
I agree that fish bomb is easily countered by a small bolt of lightning. I agree that with clones, there will be three Hiruzens so the real Deidara on his C1 bird is engaged by one Hiruzen, another Hiruzen can go after the C2 clay dragon and another can go after the Deidara clone planting mines.

You failed to point out how Hiruzen takes out the Deidara clone underground when the elemental attacks nor Enma are underground attacks.

All in all I agree that Deidara can't distract Hiruzen but I disagree with Deidara not being able to make distance when he is faster than Hiruzen on his bird.

KG's strategy of Hiruzen taking down Deidara in the air
I agree that Enma won't be slower as it extends as it was very long when it pushed Kyuubi out of the village. I don't agree with Enma's weight not being an issue if Hiruzen swings it as it becomes larger though because won't it slow down under Unorthodox's assumption which you were trying to comply with?

I like how you pointed out that Deidara didn't consistently evade Gaara's sand and actually got caught once Gaara upped the scale.

I haven't seen Deidara using 20 C1 birds simultaneously so I'll agree this is fanfic for now unless Unorthdox explains where in the manga it was hinted Deidara can use so many at a given period of time. You also pointed out that they all home towards Hiruzen so they'll all get caught in the AoE of Hiruzen's attack.

Hiruzen's elemental attacks
I agree with you that Unorthodox is very wrong on the size of the elements being mediocre. However, I disagree with your notion of it being much larger than Madara's katon he used against the alliance and I don't see this being as large as bijuu, let alone above bijuu size. Anyway good point when it comes to Deidara's clay bird being explosive which will blow up if hit by anything other than raiton. That means Deidara can't just make another one.

Countering Unorthodox's C3 Strategy
You pointed out the flaw in Unorthodox's strategy of having the clay bird swallow the bomb up. It can't fit into the mouth when it becomes large. You also pointed out the massive prep time being problematic for Deidara, allowing Hiruzen to take him out during that time. Also your strategy of nullifying C3 just like the C1/C2 homing missiles still holds.

Countering Clone Explosion
You successfully countered it by explaining how Hiruzen's sensory abilities will pick up on the clone and once it gets close to blow up, a raiton enhanced shuriken will defuse the clone and take it out. You also explained how it applies to C2 missiles as well thus allowing Hiruzen to conserve chakra.

CQC
You explained how Oro using shadow snake arms doesn't mean Hiruzen got outdone in CQC as shadow snake arms was a ninjutsu so Hiruzen's superiority in straight up sword VS enma clash still holds. You also pointed out that what Tenten did wasn't the extent of her abilities and not superior to what Hiruzen can pull off. You also explained how Unorthodox's examples only prove that Deidara won't get blitzed by Hiruzen, but failed to prove that Deidara can hold his own in CQC.

Sensory abilities
Unorthodox didn't counter KG's second proof as to why Hiruzen is a sensor.

Unorthodox's Second Post​

Spoiler

C1
You pointed out that Hiruzen's raiton bolt is relatively skinny compared to Hiruzen's other attacks but failed to prove that Gaara's sand arms are far larger than the raiton bolts. You pointed out that Shukaku chakra arms have mobility yet the birds still slipped through. I agree that C1 birds can evade the raiton bolts but they still have to come close to Hiruzen to attack where Hiruzen can defend against them as KG outlined. Also why are you confusing KG's counter to fish bomb to his counter to flying birds? Please keep track of what you are countering. I do agree that Deidara can escape underground to evade all of Hiruzen's elemental streams and to gain distance before taking flight. I agree that KG shouldn't underrate the fish bomb with the fallacious logic he used but his point still stands on how Hiruzen counters it. I don't think ordinary C1 explosions being larger than Deidara is proof that they can blow up a doton wall.

Elemental attacks
How does a C1 explosion counter an elemental attack? Not powerful enough and if Deidara detonates them prematurely, that just protects Hiruzen. You claimed Deidara could still fight after getting hit by his elemental attacks by using proof that Deidara could still do so after losing an arm but this doesn't make sense if Deidara gets his whole body hit. I do agree that while on the ground, Deidara can simply evade those elemental techniques via hiding like a mole.

Premature C1 detonation
I agree that Gaara was still controlling his sand arms when the C1 clay birds slipped through them. You did make a good point that Deidara making the handsign to blow up his C1 bombs is faster than Hiruzen using an earth wall but you used the anime as a reference. You make a good point that Hiruzen won't anticipate Deidara trying to blow his explosives up if he is trying to dodge them. Deidara pretending to blow them up to force Hiruzen to make a premature earthwall is an excellent strategy.

Shukaku sand arms VS Hiruzen's elemental attacks
You did brought up a good point that Shukaku's sand arms are faster than Hiruzen's elemental attacks and can be manually controlled by Gaara whereas the same doesn't hold for Hiruzen's elemental attacks. You claimed that Shukaku sand arms were larger than the Shinsuusenju which was utterly baseless and completely wrong. You also didn't counter KG's claim that the birds merely slipped through the fingers of the Shukaku hands. Instead you reiterated that they'll fly around the elemental attacks despite those elements being much larger and no openings existing.

C1 VS Doton wall
How is being too focussed a bad example. If anything, being focussed makes the attack stronger in terms of piercing through yet Kakashi's raikiri didn't pierce through, so how will an equal non focussed rasengan destroy it completely? Why are you using non chakra enhanced rock with a chakra enhanced doton wall?

You made a good point that Hiruzen can't simply spawn a doton wall so precisely. While multiple birds coming from different directions may screw Hiruzen over, got proof he can make them home towards Hiruzen from all different directions? I don't see proof how C1 winged birds flying at full speed and colliding won't blow them up.

Not sure why you don't think katon can blow up C1. I don't understand why the wind shooting clone will get bombarded when it can take out the other bombs from the other direction. Deidara being a doton user doesn't mean his clay creations can also travel through earth, especially when it's infused with Hiruzen's chakra. It seeping through Gaara's sand is different considering Gaara's sand isn't a fully solid substance like a doton wall, as it consists of grains. No proof EP2 Gaara can sense through sand or even if he could, was using sensor sand when Deidara's clay bombs sneaked in.

C2's ability to dodge Hiruzen's attacks
Just because C2 missiles are incredibly fast doesn't mean they are agile enough to change their direction. Sasuke not using katon or chidori variants doesn't mean Hiruzen won't considering Sasuke could dodge those attacks whereas Hiruzen can not. Hiruzen is better at using elemental techs than Sasuke so why are you using Sasuke's inability to counter with elemental techs. C2 missiles being as large as Deidara's clay bird doesn't mean they'll be able to change their direction as freely considering C2 missiles home towards the target which doesn't mean they can run circles around their target.

Enma VS C2
While Enma might be sore, him being unable to be useful while in pain goes against the manga. Enma doesn't need to be as durable as 4TK to withstand C2 explosions considering Hebi Sasuke is no where near 4TK durability either. 4TK not being able to withstand Raikiri is a baseless assumption and one that is false considering how V2 jins can tank Raikiri.

Kusanagi not having many feats doesn't mean it is as strong as a standard blade. The white fang has no feats but that doesn't mean he'll lose to part one genin/chuunin level ninjas. You didn't counter KG's assertion that Oro was surprised that not even Kusanagi could cut through KN4.

Why are you comparing fire style and explosions to the far more focussed cutting attacks dealt by Kusanagi? Then you go on to use the damage per unit area argument even though it goes against your logic and just makes Kusanagi more impressive contrary to your argument.

I agree with your Enma cage argument considering multiple Enmas have more durability put together but their own durability is constant so if an attack can breach through one Enma, it can breach the cage from one direction. I also agree that due to the large holes in Enma cage, it will go through the holes but I disagree that all of it will engulf Hiruzen as part of it will be blocked by the multiple Enmas surrounding Hiruzen. Also it is great you pointed out that CS2 Sasuke even without coiling up with wings is way more durable than Hiruzen so KG's argument that the wing didn't cover Sasuke entirely doesn't mean it will work for Hiruzen.

C2 Pressure
I agree that C2 was pressuring Sasuke in spite of his speed but you are ignoring Hiruzen's clones and large scale elemental attacks, none of which Sasuke had.

C2's Power
To me, it makes no sense for C2 to be more powerful as more of the tail is used up as the fight prolongs. It should get more powerful if more of the tail is used up in one go. This is because the manga didn't imply the inner portion of the tail is stronger than the outer portion of the tail so it makes sense that to make a bigger C2 explosion, more of the tail will have to be used up. Regardless, you are right that there was still quite a bit of the tail left so your point still stands on C2 being made even more powerful.

Unorthodox's Multi Pronged strategy with C1 and C2
You say Deidara can blow up the bomb far from Hiruzen but that gives more time for Hiruzen to evade or block the explosion before it hits him. Blocking LoS isn't as bad as BoD. Comparing Sasuke to Hiruzen is a bad idea once again considering Hiruzen's elemental attacks and shadow clones.

I'm not sure why you think Deidara can and will use 20 fish bombs. Seems kind of useless and a waste of clay and chakra as Hiruzen can easily counter them all with his raiton.

I do agree Deidara can get his distance by going underground as KG didn't counter that part of your post. You also brought up the good point that Hiruzen will most likely be fixated with the real Deidara flying around with C1 but failed to counter Hiruzen's usage of shadow clones for multitasking.

My question to you is that if Deidara goes so far away from Hiruzen, how does Deidara actually plant C2 mines in Hiruzen's area? This strategy seems kind of redundant if the C2 dragon is spitting out the mines far away from Hiruzen allowing Hiruzen to focus on the real Deidara which you have noted will happen.

Once again you fail to realize Hiruzen has clones which can wield Enma and others can use elemental attacks so he can go on the offensive or defensive.

I agree that Deidara can fly far away at a distance far above a village but how does he fight Hiruzen if he is so far away? Also I don't see Deidara controlling 20 clay creations simultaneously.

I agree that Deidara's ability to go up, down and to each side allows him to evade Hiruzen's linear attacks but KG had Hiruzen corner Deidara with two Enma poles from two sides allowing an elemental attack to hit Deidara as he'll be too busy evading the two Enma poles. If Deidara focusses on the elemental attack, one of the Enma poles will hit Deidara as per KG's strategy outlined in his first post.

I can't believe you claimed smart bombs mean the bombs are intelligent. They are heading towards Hiruzen so they won't change their direction to dodge Hiruzen's attacks like you are saying but they'll only change direction if Hiruzen moves. Shukaku hands are nowhere near village level.

Instead of crying to KG because you feel he is underrating Deidara's flight speed, you should stop overrating it and accept the facts without any resistance. You bring a good point that Gaara's attacks change direction unlike Hiruzen's but ignore KG's post where he has Hiruzen use multiple attacks. Not to mention you don't have proof that Gaara's attacks had more AoE than Hiruzen's.

Hiruzen's elemental attacks
I disagree with Hiruzen's earth, water and wind not making the bombs explode prematurely. I agree that none of Hiruzen's elemental attacks are larger than bijuu, not even close. As a matter of fact, it would take all five of those elements to span a width larger than the bijuu.

C3
Unorthodox brought forth the AoE of C3 but overrated it by saying it could destroy the entire village. I do agree that the bomb doesn't need to explode close to Hiruzen to kill him. Your counter to KG's argument that the bird carrying the C3 won't fit C3 doesn't make sense to me. Clay clones were brought up and used to trap Enma which was good but it seems out of place to bring that up in this part of your post. I agree with your argument that Kankuro's flashback means little because that took place inside Kankuro's head, not real time. Due to the fact Deidara can continue to fly, I agree that he can prep C3 but you have to take it into account that he can't use any other attack when that is happening so your previous strategy of employing C1 and C2 goes to waste.

Clone Suicide Bombing
You brought forth a strategy of a clone getting close to Hiruzen on his bird and then blowing himself up. This was a nice strategy as clone feints can fool Hiruzen. I agree with you that Hiruzen can't simply evade or block that explosion.

Shadow shuriken enhanced with raiton
Your counter argument that once the shuriken is thrown, the chakra is no longer enhancing the shuriken is weak because we've seen Asuma throw a fuuton enhanced kunai which retains the fuuton chakra after it was thrown. Just because shinobi can dodge shuriken doesn't mean homing C2 missiles can.

Hiruzen's senses
You never countered KG's sensory argument and instead just brought of some vague examples to prove your point. You also downplayed Hiruzen's sense of smell.

KidGamer's Third Post​

Spoiler

C1
You clarified that Deidara can't use so many special C1 types at the same time. You also destroyed the fish bomb argument. You also pointed out Unorthodox's double standards where he claims Deidara can survive a fish bomb but weaker C1 takes out doton wall. I agree that his elements plow through C1 with ease and will get to Deidara if he doesn't dodge. I also agree that it should take two clones at most to counter all C1 attempts while the three other clones can box Deidara in with Enma clones. You proved that Gaara's sand arms are much smaller than Hiruzen's elements. You explained it quite nicely how the doton wall is fast enough if created from the ground instead of having it spit out. With this, you explained how it still takes time for the explosion to reach Hiruzen allowing him to step back and use doton wall. You also explained quite nicely that the C1 birds can simply curve around the elemental attacks.

You proved that C1 can't damage doton wall. I also agree that the homing birds can't simply bypass the doton wall and that they can't come from all around Hiruzen as they are guided towards him and come from Deidara himself.

Summary

Spoiler

Unorthodox
I believe Unorthodox overrated the dodging ability of the C1 birds a lot and KG explained how Hiruzen counters them. C2 is countered even easily due to their size and Unorthodox overrated those as well. Unorthodox doesn't seem to understand that a homing missile doesn't just evade attacks on its own. Those smart bombs aren't actually smart in that sense, they just lock on to the target, which will be Hiruzen and will fly towards him, allowing him to take them out. It would be better if Unorthodox expanded upon Hiruzen's chakra reserves and put more emphasis into the fact that KG was wasting a lot of chakra in countering C1.

Unorthodox failed to take into account Hiruzen's ability to use clones multiple times in the debate. I did like Unorthodox's strategy where he made good use of Deidara's clay bunshins so he should have expanded more upon clay bunshins as a cornerstone to his strategy.

Unorthodox showed how Deidara nigh instantly flew well over village level while dodging Gaara's controlled sand attacks which countered KG's point that Hiruzen can easily stop Deidara from flying too high.

KG
I think KG proved that Hiruzen is a sensor and Unorthodox didn't counter the point where Hiruzen uses a telescopic ability. Since KG proved Hiruzen was a sensor, it debunked many of Unorthodox's strategies where he made use of cover, clay mines and hiding like a mole technique. KG pointed out that Unorthodox's C3 strategy was flawed because a clay bird isn't large enough to swallow it up as it expands.

I liked how KG made good usage of shadow clones allowing Hiruzen to go on the offensive while keeping his defence. KG convinced me that Deidara isn't that fast on his bird considering Gaara tagged him twice. While Unorthodox claimed that Gaara's sand can be curved around unlike Hiruzen's elemental attacks making it harder to dodge, KG mentioned that Hiruzen's attacks are larger and he can use two Enmas which can be swung around to corner Deidara and create an opening.

Verdict

Spoiler

This was closer than expected. I give the victory to KidGamer65. His arguments were more consistent and easier to follow. Furthermore, he posted in a timely manner and made proper use of the English language.

Advice to both debaters

Spoiler

I was disappointed that Deidara's limited clay supplies and the chakra reserves of both shinobi weren't taken into account to a greater extent as that is a very critical point that both of you missed out on.

 

[DrProof]

This was closer than expected. I give the victory to KidGamer65. His arguments were more consistent and easier to follow. Furthermore, he posted in a timely manner and made proper use of the English language.

Lmao.

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Congrats to KG.