Deidara's C1 is the real game changer here but since you said your not going all into detail on it here's where i turn my Disadvantage into an Advantage. You Mentioned Deidara throwing his C1 at Hiruzen knowing that it the weakest usage of C1 he has done in the series it was more of a defense method than an attack. Deidara would start off with a distraction so he could get into the sky something such as his
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Which as you can see has a larger Aoe than most of his C1
Duly noted, but the counters listed in my opener still apply. There's no way a single bomb is going to provide a big enough distraction for him to get into the air when Hiruzen's scale is humongous, and when Hiruzen will be expecting him to do this. If Hiruzen attacks with Raiton then the bomb never even goes off, and there's a chance Deidara gets hit in the crossfire.
Then there's the fact that due to the AoE, he'll have to wait till he's not so close to it if he wants to detonate, otherwise he'll kill himself while Hiruzen is protected. C1's not a game changer.
explosions
considering
how high the water rouse it not only provides the necessary debri to fly around and dust it also causes a decent amount of damage as it down the 3 tailed beast so Hiruzen want stay to close. Deidara having full intel on Hiruzen knows about his long range attacks so would definitely get a further distance then his usually fighting distance for grounded opponents.
Read above. As for damage, not an issue due to Enma's cage or Doton Wall, which should at the very least, soften the damage from the attack. Downing the Sanbi isn't really a good feat considering it was wild with no Jinchuuriki, and Kishimoto decided to give the other Bijuu better abilities all around later on. C2 is much stronger and it couldn't even put down Hebi Sasuke. That offensive power isn't even going to make Hiruzen sweat.
If the bold refers to him getting higher in the air once he takes flight, then I've already addressed that in my post, so I'll assume you've addressed it later on in this post. If it refers to him getting his distance while on the ground, and THEN taking flight, then he just dies a terrible death. He won't be evading elemental streams that large w/ this starting distance. Don't forget that Hiruzen can make clones, and we still have Enma to factor in here.
Deidara has C1 birds that have good speed even noted by himself to be faster than his standard birds [
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] not only is that great speed the way they got around shakaku's giant hand (Which is Huge) was swift Hiruzen fuuton stream is easily dodged and that was only 2 of them Deidara has shown to use
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They can easily dodged Hiurzen's elemental attacks and they're small enough to fly right into Hiruzen if he try to use enma as a cage defense
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thats more than enough air space for the birds to evade. Giant shurikens are useless they're to big the birds dodges then or they can fly right through the gapping holes in them
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the mud wall is hardly a factor an explosion the size of the fish bomb blows it down then the other attack Hiruzen or they simply fly right around it.
The hand is not as large as Hiruzen's elemental attack. So it's size really isn't that much of a factor here. And it wasn't moving when Deidara's birds zoomed past the openings between it's fingers All those counters were for Deidara's regular C1 bombs, not the ones that can move on their own. Anyway,
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That's the moment where Hiruzen can set up something like his Earth Wall to block them. Not sure why you've mentioned the fish bomb here when the fish bomb and the homing C1 are not the same, nor would he be able to use the fish bomb to blow down the wall before the homing C1 gets blocked.
Then there's the fact that the hands were smaller, covered less area, and had openings where the birds could easily slip right through. No such opening exists with Hiruzen's techniques. So this barely counts as evidence for your claim. Barely.
I also suggest that you learn the limits of a homing object, cause the overrating of it's mobility is just too real. This is the size of
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It can be spewed from the mouth or it can
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Hiruzen's is larger than Kakashi's, and it's not even close.
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, so Hiruzen's would be stronger and take more punishment. C1-C0's explosions are very large, but not very focused, thus deal very little damage to the opponent compared to how big the explosion is. C1 isn't taking down the wall and doing serious damage to Hiruzen, if any at all. So it serves it's purpose.
But anyway, if something the size of Hiruzen's Earth Wall popped up right in front of the birds with literally only a few inches of distance to spare, they would try to maneuver around, but they'd just slam right into the wall and blow up. Homing means little if they aren't given the proper time and distance to maneuver around obstacles. That's pretty much how Gaara managed to block C1 despite it being a homing technique.
Or Hiruzen can just attack and defend from it from multiple angles. A wall blocks the front, and then a Katon such as
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, which spreads out into
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to get them as they go around the wall. Or he can just use a Raiton or Fuuton technique to do so as they come around the wall.
Your right about one thing Hiruzen is not dodging them Sasuke who is a great margin above Hiruzen in the speed department dodged by a mere hair. The birds can dodge his elemental attacks especially his ration because its like a single lighting bolt they caught up to Sasuke who is fast enough on feet to dodge most elemental projectile attacks and what do you mean linear in that scan you post the bird clearly curved to the right intercepting Sasuke
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you can clearly see where Sasuke ran from as the movement marking shows the bird clearly turns to cut him off futhermore Deidara always explode his bomb prematurely
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Hiruzen is definitely thrown off his feet and if Hiruzen opts to use his useless enma cage its cuts off his elemental attacks because they're not burning or cutting through enma giving Deidara birds more room to operate and getting closer so the explosion can be more dangerous.
Read above. That strategy pretty much handles all homing bombs, C2 even more so since there's no feat that shows them being more agile than C1, which would be a no brainer due to the size. Sasuke was thrown off his feet, but landed right back on them. If anything it looks like he merely jumped away. Either way, it doesn't really change the outcome of the fight since Hiruzen won't try to evade them because he won't be able to, and he has better options.
Enma's Durability throws up alot of red flags he is proclaimed to be harder than diamond yet
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this sword is made of no special metal or anything just or average run a the mil blade futhermore enma's durability and defense is a nonfactor. Enma defense is like a tiny house with windows at the top bottom and all over the sides no matter what material its made out of when you have all those holes in your defense your not blocking from an explosion thats easily block level so hiruzen gets toasted in that cage and enma takes good damage aswell and they're is no way enma is taking repeated explosions on these levels plus they get bigger with every tailed sucked up (
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) this blows Enma and Hiruzen back to their generation.
It would leave him sore. Never said that it'd do any real damage to his body let alone actually cut through it. It being a "run of the mil blade" is pretty much a terrible, and utterly false, assumption from you, and it contradicts pretty much everything we know about the blade.
-Kusanagi is a legendary blade. Why are you trying to compare to stuff like what the samurai's use?
-Has special abilities as we have seen.
-Orochimaru was surprised that it couldn't cut through KN4.
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If this blade wasn't significantly stronger than regular swords, then Orochimaru would have no reason to be surprised that he can't cut through Naruto's cloak. After all it'd just be your ordinary metal. This blade would cut Stage 2 Sasuke apart, yet Enma said it'd only leave him sore. Putting Enma's durability so low that it wouldn't be able to block what one of Sasuke's wings blocked is pure nonsense.
He said: "Not even the sword of Kusanagi is able to cut through" Key words:
"Not even"
Lmao, and ordinary blade. Nice joke there. If Kusanagi can leave him sore, then it's a feat for Kusanagi. Not a minus for Enma.
Then there's the fact that the Enma cage is a bunch of Enma's put together. It's defensive capability can't be compared to a single Enma.
Enma having small holes in it doesn't change the fact that the brunt of the explosion will be blocked. The explosion isn't like water or fire. It's not going to seep through the holes and blow Hiruzen to bits at it's full power. Sasuke blocked with his wing, and his wing was blown apart and he got some scuff marks. God knows his wing didn't cover his whole entire body like a cocoon since it's not large enough.
Repeated explosions? Never said Enma would tank repeated explosions. The only way it'll come to that is if Hiruzen goes off the offensive altogether.
Uh..no...it doesn't get bigger as more of the tail is used up. The more tail that is used in one instance, the bigger it can get. We don't know Deidara's limit or how big he can actually make it, or if he can make it as big as he wants. So it's best to simply stick with what was shown. Especially since you don't know how large it'd get if the rest of tail was used.
Not seeing how this helps Hiruzen his body is still burnt with the pure heat furthermore the explosion would throw him all around killing him that way and enma would take serious damage also Deidara has fired his bird/bombs at a good pace
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even with Sasuke throwing Deidara off for a good second his Dragon still got to spit an even stronger explosion out Hiruzen is not uncaging himself before Deidara shoots another bird off leaving Hiruzen stagnant. Hiruzen has nothing that can get Deidara from the behind. Hiruzen going into the Enma cage is suicide i think i provided great examples why its useless weather Deidara is using C1 or C2.
He's an edo zombie. As long as his body isn't mangled to the point where he can't fight anymore, there's absolutely no way burns are going to do anything to him. He can have holes in his body and everything, unless the head is destroyed, the arms and legs are destroyed, or the body is vaporized completely. Hiruzen will still be able to fight.
Sasuke was forced to evade Deidara's first bomb, which gives him very little time to counter attack before Deidara preps another one. Hiruzen doesn't have that problem. He can corner any homing C2 bomb with multiple elemental blasts like I said he'd do to C1 above, or he can block with Enma. The fact that he has the ability to counter C2 before it actually gets to him, and the fact that he has the ability to block and not take damage to himself means that he won't get tripped up or thrown off by anything he does. Sasuke however:
-Had no knowledge.
-Had to evade the first bomb, which he didn't know was a homing bomb.
-Had to evade the landmine with CM2, something he also didn't see coming. Something Hiruzen can prevent from even being set up since Tobi isn't here to help him, and he can't afford to do it himself with Hiruzen on his tail.
-Had to block the second bomb with CM2 since he couldn't evade without the chance of getting turned to paste by the landmines, and he actually took damage from that, which would also affect the time it takes for him to retaliate.
There is literally no comparison when it comes to their situations. None at all. Not sure why Hiruzen isn't taking down the cage before Deidara preps another bird considering they are all just clones. All he (Or Enma?) has to do is think it and the cage vanishes just like any other clone jutsu. Now, unless Deidara can prep and fire C2 and then hit Hiuzen before he can use any jutsu, you have no point here.
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This is where we go back to stage 1 when i said Deidara could cause a distraction with his fish bombs which has a good aoe size explosion Hiruzen having full intel on Deidara he would want to stop him from getting into the sky leaving Hiruzen a bit reckless but as i explained above Deidara gets his air space once Deidara gets his distance after his c1 attacks he would summon his C2 dragon which he does not need to be on it to operate yes Deidara birds has shown to be self operated swooping Deidara up at the moment of attack
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Meaning without contact they can move on their own will Deidara flies on his casual speedy bird dodging Hiruzen easily while attacking with bigger explosive C1 to provide a great distraction. While his dragon is safe high in the sky spitting out the landmines for his clone to set up. Hiruzen shadow clones provide nothing here the Dragon may not be fast but with great distance it gives it good room to dodge his attack and also as i said before Deidara explodes his bombs prematurely throwing his opponents around the battlefield making them more disoriented furthermore he would also have to worry about the real Deidara on his bird with all this on his plate him seeing the clone would nearly be impossible as its underground aswell. Hiruzen seeing his clones produce nothing here withdraws them due to his spotty chakra reserves.
The distraction strategy is the bane of this part of your post, and I addressed it above. If he never gets his distance, then this isn't going to work.
Stop with the fish bomb. [
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It's best and only mobility feats are when it's underwater. It can't fly, so don't give it that ability. On land it's basically another C1 bomb that Hiruzen would easily counter with a small raiton stream. It won't be able to evade, nor will it blow up once it's been hit. Or Hiruzen can outright evade it and deal with Deidara and whatever he's trying to pull instead. Deidara isn't getting both his C2 Dragon and himself in the air with C1 as a distraction. Only a single Hiruzen is needed to ward off all C1 attempts. Old boy makes a clone and then goes after Deidara himself. Fish bomb is strong, but nigh useless here since we are on land. The rest can home, but Hiruzen can easily counter that as stated above.
And your strategy assumes that once the C2 dragon has been formed, that Hiruzen will shift all his attention away from it and to Deidara specifically, even though given the C2 Dragon's lack of mobility feats, taking out while in the air isn't going to be a problem, at all. Enma extension, or Raiton would take it out before it ever got far. The only way it'll get a great distance is if Hiruzen lets it do so, or if Deidara can actually distract Hiruzen. Which he can't. C1 isn't going to do anything major since Hiruzen can have a clone or two counter it with techs like Earth Wall and Karyu Endan. Since C1 is a poor attempt at a distraction here, Deidara (or his clone, whatever he chooses) is easily noticed trying to sneak underground and then it promptly taken out by Hiruzen (or his clones, whatever he chooses. It's inconsequential)
This strategy would've worked if Hiruzen couldn't make clones to mutli task. One for defense. One to handle the giant C2 Dragon, and another to stop Deidara from prepping the landmines. Hell. If Hiruzen acts fast enough, which he should be able to given the infinitely faster jutsu casting time (one hand sign for his elemental techniques, including Karyu Endan. No hand signs for Doton Wall), stopping the C2 Dragon should foil the landmine strategy altogether.
Enma landing anything on Deidara is a joke at top speed Deidara dodges enma easily and with enma being that long its would logically be heavier and slower not only that it would leave Hiruzen wide open for all kinds of attacks as i mentioned before
Um. If he extends Enma as he swings it, the bold doesn't become an issue. Not to mention he doesn't just have to evade one Enma, he has to evade another Enma and then some elemental jutsu while he's at it. Did you just decide to ignore that part of my post? I clearly stated that Hiruzen would make clones so he can multi task. So no, he won't be left wide open nor will Deidara evade unless Hiruzen has let him reach his optimal, highest altitude. And like I've stated multiple times, Hiruzen strikes while Deidara is on the ground, or while he's trying to get high in the air. Deidara isn't going to be out of Hiruzen's reach the moment he gets on the bird. He has plenty of time to attack.
Not to mention Enma extended with enough force behind it to push Full Kurama out of the village. So it has to move fast since I doubt that it's mass alone is what let it generate enough force to push it out of the village.
Deidara exceptionally fast 4 winged birds which would get to Hiruzen before he could retract enma and you must know if enma is extended that long Hiruzen is not doing any other jutsu as he would need to hold it with both hands and if he could straight forward attacks are just not cutting it Deidara dodged Gaara while attacking well over village level and Deidara being this high does not mean it gives Hiruzen a better chance to hit his birds as i said before using 20 of them flying in different directions would screw Hiruzen over.
4 winged birds? What you are talking about? Meh, either way. I've already covered all C1-C2 variants above. Apply the same argumentation right here. Not to mention this whole point of yours ignores the fact that I clearly stated Hiruzen would use clones to attack, so no. Whether or not he can act while retracting Enma doesn't matter when he has his clones to defend him from C1 and C2. Not to mention Deidara using attacks while Hiruzen is trying to whack him is only going to slow him down and cause him to get hit, while Hiruzen blocks whatever attack Deidara has sent down.
There is no "this high". You don't have a legit strategy as to how he gets so far off the ground that Hiruzen's attacks wouldn't be able to hit him. Hiruzen isn't going to sit down and let him get out of his range, not when he has the means to stop it.
Using 20 of them flying in different directions is fanfic. Deidara can fit one homing bird in one hand. The 20 bombs nonsense is another, smaller variant of C1 that he can use in bulk. Not to mention they are homing, and Hiruzen is the target. That makes it relatively easy to block them, and I've already stated above how he blocks all C1 and C2 variants. Blocking them while Deidara is busy trying not to get hit only makes it easier. Not sure why you say "straight forward attacks" aren't cutting it when Hiruzen isn't using a single straight forward attack. Not sure why you say Gaara was using village scaled attacks and still missing. Blatant lie or misinterpretation of what really happened.
-Deidara evades a basic sand attack. Nowhere near village level. [
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-He evaded
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initial assault, but it was only one hand, and again, nowhere near village level.
-Then Gaara ups the scale (still not village level) and catches this guy. [
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-He has to blast himself out of there before it's formed completely. [
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-Oops. Gets caught again. [
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The moment Gaara upped his scale was the moment this guy got himself caught. He never danced around Gaara's sand attacks nor does he have the potential to.
In what world is Hiruzen boxing Deidara in once he's already airborn
In the world where Hiruzen goes ham on him the moment the fight starts instead of letting him get so high up into the air that it becomes an uphill battle for him.
your also exaggerating his elemental attacks their not even that large in size
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if you scale off the clashes which makes it looks even bigger their size is mediocre taking the wings off are nothing Deidara has shown to create another bird in mid fall
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will not be enough he'll need to end him if he ever gets the chance to once he's in the air.
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The dishonesty is so strong right now. Learn what a mediocre elemental attack is. An elemental jutsu that is larger than the Bijuu is not mediocre. This is larger than Madara's Gouka Mekkyaku, as in the the Katon he used on the alliance, much larger. Gouka Mekkyaku is far from mediocre let alone this. As long as Hiruzen doesn't let him get too high in the air, these will suffice.
When I said clip it's wings, I didn't literally mean clip it's wings. I just meant that he'll destroy it. Isn't that thing a bomb anyway? If Hiruzen hits it hard enough with anything that isn't Raiton, it blows and Deidara dies a horrible death.
I already established how Deidara gets his distance now
You didn't. C1 was your only way, and that's easily blocked.
using c3 is fairly easily Hiruzen having full intel on it would know what it would look like giving its size but C3 does not start off that bigs its actually hand held when Deidara first makes it
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its clearly hand held Deidara would use his standard flying bird to close the distance from him and Hiruzen while keeping his c3 bomb and its mouth and yes it can hold it i mean the thing ate Gaara or atleast had him in its mouth once they're close enough Deidara expands and then detonates its we've seen Deidara detonate all his guided bombs without physical contact this is no different.
Wat? :| He's going to put C3 in his birds mouth, and then fly towards Hiruzen and blow him up with it? You do know that if Deidara does this he's going to die a terrible, terrible death right? Not to mention if he comes at Hiruzen with his standard flying bird, closing the distance and such. Every strategy I listed above for taking out his bird in mid air becomes a million times more probable to happen since he'll be attempting to get in Hiruzen's face. Either he realizes that he'll blow himself up and he turns around, or he gets blasted by Raiton or knocked off by Enma. Whichever one hits him first. Fuhma Shuriken Shadow Clone Jutsu can even be thrown in there to make it all the more difficult for Deidara to evade without getting clipped.
Then there's the obvious flaw that Deidara fills
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and then it expands. Then he drops it on the opponent. If he puts it in the bird's mouth while it's small, he won't be able to fill it up, thus it won't blow, and if it does blow the explosion would be pitiful. Deidara can't fill it up while it's in the bird.
Then there's the fact that it took him a little while to do this.
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In between that time, Kankuro was able to have a conversation with the Suna fodders, and then have a flashback to his talk with Gaara. Is Hiruzen going to be sitting on his arse sipping some tea Kermit style while Deidara is preparing a bomb that'll blow him to bits and pieces saying "It's none of my business"? Or is he going to be capitalizing on that time period? I'm gonna go with the latter. Deidara can't do jack while he's filling the doll with his C3 chakra. That's when Hiruzen takes him out, especially since he won't be getting very far off the ground to begin with. He can't afford to stop and fill C3 up. Gaara literally sat there while Deidara did this, but Hiruzen won't. He can't afford to.
So he either gets slayed trying to finish prepping C3, or C3 gets nullified by a Raiton Stream. Hell, C3 won't even happen since this dude is never going to get to a high enough point where he can safely drop C3 w/o killing himself in the process.
Or Deidara can take Hiruzen out an another way his clone that was underground that set the landmines could have tooken a bite out of his dragon before Deidara departed from it to explode like it
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right underneath Hiruzen feet killing him that way also deidara could use this method with his main flying bird take a bite of it then fly as close to hiruzen as possible to explode near his face basically its about 5 different outcomes with Deidara winning 0 with Hiruzen.
I've explained how the landmines aren't going to happen, so that kills this strategy right here. Not sure where this "take a bite of the bomb and blow it up" stuff is coming from, but where is evidence that this is even possible? The last one is probably the worst strategy I've seen in your post yet considering you are actually suggesting that Deidara's bird will fly in Hiruzen's face and blow him to bits while he sits there and does nothing. That gets countered the same way all of C1 and C2 gets countered.
Deidara and his clones are the only things that can take bites of clay and blow themselves up. What he basically did was a much smaller and slightly different version of C0. Zero evidence that Deidara's other clay constructions, which are all bombs, can eat another bomb and then blow up.
Even if by some miracle, Deidara's clone managed to elude Hiruzen's sight, sensory ability, and sense of smell and set up all these landmines...the moment he took a bite of the bird is the moment he'd blow up. That makes this strategy a fail strategy since Hiruzen would easily evade that, since it'd be closer to Deidara himself than it would be Hiruzen, and if not, he can block it the same way he blocks the rest of the bombs that aren't C3.
Or he can just infuse his Shuriken with the Raiton element and then clone it with Shadow Shuriken Clone Technique and nullify C3, and possibly C2 given it's large size and lack of mobility feats. Evidence that this is possible? Chakra flow isn't a difficult technique. People like:
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lol)
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-Naruto during the Rasen Shuriken training Arc.
-Danzo.
-Sasuke, w/ Shuriken and his Chokuto.
-Killer B.
-Kakashi.
Now. Hiruzen is a stated and confirmed master of all 5 basic nature transformations. Unlike most of the people who were given them in the DB 4, he's actually shown proficient usage of each one, so saying he can flow Raiton Chakra through his Shuriken shouldn't be too far fetched when people like Omoi, his son, Samurai, and Darui can do it. Their Ninjutsu prowess and overall knowledge and ability is nowhere near Hiruzen's, in any category. The only ones who can think of competing with Hiruzen when it comes to Ninjutsu ability are Kakashi and Sasuke, and even then, Hiruzen still trumps them both in the category.
If you are going to disagree and/or label it fanfic, at least have a good reason.
Hiruzen knowing that chakra is nothing special Orochimaru practically said the same about team Sasuke
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Madara was the second best thing to Kaguya at the time him saying that about Madara's chakra does not give him sensory feats. He did not own Orochimaru we must be looking at two different scans thats just a casual clash and they both tangled each other up. Deidara would never attempt CQC to begin with but let me clear something up Deidara with no arms fended off the whole team gai and
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and we all know she is a shuriken master that can be compared to hiruzen. Deidara has also shown great reaction time and reflexes dodging and counter attacking hebi Sasuke from close range
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Sasuke is much faster than Hiruzen so even if the fight was to somehow come to CQC i would not count Deidara out so quickly
Orochimaru had to use a jutsu to stop Hiruzen w/ Enma. When I made a section for close combat, I was only addressing what could be pulled off in a CQC battle, and Deidara's bombs are definitely not happening, so unless he can barehandedly take out Hiruzen. Reacting to Sasuke's Shunshin and dodging Tenten's attacks doesn't mean that he won't get overwhelmed in CQC, that just means that Hiruzen won't blitz him. Hiruzen has the better feats, and it's not even close.
-Far better weaponry. He has Fuhma Shuriken which can be cloned, and he has Enma.
-His Taijutsu skill is better by feats, and hype.
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Deidara doesn't even have any CQC feats. Not even sure where people got this "he fended off the whole Team Gai" stuff from anyway. Tenten attacks him, he deflects the weapons, and then he blows himself up, which is what he did because he knew he didn't stand a chance. Tenten being a weapons master means nothing when all she did was throw 3 Shuriken. Not the extent of her ability, nor is that superior to what Hiruzen can pull of in close quarters.
You didn't address all of the sensory points btw. Just the Madara's chakra vanishing one. So I'm going to assume that you have no counter, thus you are conceding that he can most likely sense.
Haven't seen these characters in a match-up ever.
