Three-Headed Kurama Avatar

[lndra]

It wouldn't. No avatar made by Naruto or Sasuke could survive. The Three-Headed Kurama Avatar and Tailed Beast Susano'o only held up long enough for the explosion to pass them. Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o would do the same.

That doesn't sound surprising when you have the world's amount of natural energy collide with a lot of the tailed beasts' chakra.

No, it wouldn't. Both Kurama Avatar, and Perfect Susano'o are the same varingy when it comes to power disruption and durability, in that sense of both creations are on the same level.

Then you should understand why they wouldn't survive.

 

[Holy God]

I think I know the thought processes behind each of your answers.

URH: You believe that because the Shadow Clone Jutsu splits chakra equally, that logically when combined back together, the chakra potency should be the same. Which is understandable.

However, this is untrue, and please allow me to explain it with math.

Let's say for all intents and purposes, Naruto has 100 units of Chakra. Now let's say hypothetically the Kurama Avatar takes 20 Chakra to create and maintain. Now, you would be absolutely correct if the Kurama avatar took a percentage or even all of Naruto's chakra. But it doesn't. One Kurama avatar logically takes no more chakra to make than another Kurama Avatar.

Now, because Kurama's avatar takes a flat amount of chakra. "20 units out of 100," even when Naruto's chakra is split 3 ways, into 33 units, 33 units, and 33 units, it still takes 20 units of chakra to create the Kurama avatar. Now, instead of there being 3 sets of 20% of 33% of Naruto's total chakra, which would still equal 20% of his chakra, there are 60 units of chakra combined together.

Long story short, because jutsus take a flat amount of chakra, rather than a percentage of chakra, combining the jutsus of clones combine the power equally, which is why this worked.

Spoiler

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And wasn't only as powerful as 100% Naruto's Oodama Rasengan.

Pure chakra techniques should be extendable though. Using your example, if a Rasengan took 10 units of chakra I could make a clone that uses it as well, therefore it takes 20 units of chakra, and produces twice the force. Why make a clone, when I could simply use add 10 to what I already have, therefore making it larger and forming a Giant Rasengan(as it has been done). This is how Amaterasu varies in area coverage looking at a single point and how Madara's and Obito's "ten-tails sized" fire-style techniques were larger than anything we've seen before. Naruto decided to form three already made clones, or 60 units of chakra, when he could have simply imported 40 more into his already made one.

 

[The Necromancer]

I'm not really sure I understand what you are trying to say. I am taking Kurama avatar to be an individual entity(basically naruto + kurama in one), as it performs the tech. So kurama avatar makes 2 clones and recombines them. So imagine kurama avatar was just naruto, explain how he makes clones of himself and recombines to be more powerful.

-Naruto makes 2 clones. Each has 33% of his chakra.
-Each clone makes 1 Kurama Avatar.

Now, because the chakra is split, if 100% Naruto could make 10 Kurama Avatars before running out of chakra, each clone can make 3 or so, because the Avatar doesn't use a percentage of chakra, but a flat amount of chakra every time.

These avatars are not 1/3 as powerful as 100% Naruto, because the starting amount of chakra doesn't matter, it's the cost of the jutsu that matters.

By your logic, for every clone naruto makes, his rasengan's power is split in half, and we know that's absolutely not true.

Pure chakra techniques should be extendable though. Using your example, if a Rasengan took 10 units of chakra I could make a clone that uses it as well, therefore it takes 20 units of chakra, and produces twice the force. Why make a clone, when I could simply use add 10 to what I already have, therefore making it larger and forming a Giant Rasengan(as it has been done). This is how Amaterasu varies in area coverage looking at a single point and how Madara's and Obito's "ten-tails sized" fire-style techniques were larger than anything we've seen before. Naruto decided to form three already made clones, or 60 units of chakra, when he could have simply imported 40 more into his already made one.

With normal jutsus this is true. A fireball can be made into a bigger fireball, and a rasengan can be made into a bigger rasengan. But for reasons we don't know, it is apparent that the BM cloak cannot be increased in potency simply by adding chakra, probably because of Naruto's skill or their level of sync.

Naruto's combining of the avatars proves this rule, rather than being an exception to it.

 

[KingHashirama]

O_O, people are really saying the clones Naruto used to make the 3 headed avatar, somehow give him a boost?


His only boost was the Senjutsu chakra, other than that he did not recieve any sort of boost.

 

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

-Naruto makes 2 clones. Each has 33% of his chakra.
-Each clone makes 1 Kurama Avatar.

Now, because the chakra is split, if 100% Naruto could make 10 Kurama Avatars before running out of chakra, each clone can make 3 or so, because the Avatar doesn't use a percentage of chakra, but a flat amount of chakra every time.

These avatars are not 1/3 as powerful as 100% Naruto, because the starting amount of chakra doesn't matter, it's the cost of the jutsu that matters.

By your logic, for every clone naruto makes, his rasengan's power is split in half, and we know that's absolutely not true.

yeah, i updated my post above. I understand your point. But check the update i replied there.

 

[The Necromancer]

O_O, people are really saying the clones Naruto used to make the 3 headed avatar, somehow give him a boost?


His only boost was the Senjutsu chakra, other than that he did not recieve any sort of boost.

So you think Naruto hitting someone with 3 rasengan made by himself and 2 clones, is just as effective as Naruto hitting that person with a single rasengan by himself?

yeah, i updated my post above. I understand your point. But check the update i replied there.

Honestly, I have no idea what happens chakra wise when a jutsu is cloned, rather than a clone making that jutsu.

 

[Holy God]

No, it wouldn't. Both Kurama Avatar, and Perfect Susano'o are the same varingy when it comes to power disruption and durability, in that sense of both creations are on the same level.

Then you should understand why they wouldn't survive.

Correct in that they are on the same level. However, this doesn't show why Naruto would be completely destroyed along with his regular avatar, unlike having only the avatar disappear as it did when three-headed. The only argument would be having more chakra, but Naruto could have easily adapted the sage chakra gathered by Kurama to his one-headed form.

 

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

So you think Naruto hitting someone with 3 rasengan made by himself and 2 clones, is just as effective as Naruto hitting that person with a single rasengan by himself?

Like I said, I understand your logic. But in this scenario, It's more similar to naruto creating a rasengan and then cloning himself AND the rasengan and hitting someone with both. It would be just as effective as hitting that person with a single rasengan by himself.

 

[lndra]

Correct in that they are on the same level. However, this doesn't show why Naruto would be completely destroyed along with his regular avatar, unlike having only the avatar disappear as it did when three-headed. The only argument would be having more chakra, but Naruto could have easily adapted the sage chakra gathered by Kurama to his one-headed form.

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Impossible. Naruto could never hold that level of power with a regular Kurama Avatar.
@UchihaRightfulHeir - Read below

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The problem here is the confusion on what Ashuar Avatar is, and how it came to be.

Naruto clones when they get destroyed, their chakra returns back to the owner. Understand this much. When Naruto creates clones, they basically can perform and act as the real Naruto. Meaning they are as powerful as the real Naruto (until they get destroyed obviously). When Naruto created Kurama Avatar clones and fused with them, their chakra didn't return to Naruto. Their powers fused together. Now that's where your confusion lies, because you believe if Naruto split his chakra evenly with the Kurama Clones, wouldn't the fusion to create the Ashura Avatar just make Naruto whole again? No.

You are forgetting that the fusion and the core principles in how they operate with Naruto. They aren't returning to the original, they boosting the original Kurama Avatar's power and durability. If the power was just to return to Naruto, then the chakra would dissipate and Naruto would be whole. Look at this example:

Spoiler

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Naruto couldn't perform that action alone which is why he created clones to help perform the task on entirely different level. The principles in how that functions are displayed with the Ashura Avatar just the same. What Naruto couldn't do alone, he creates the clones and fuse with them to boost his own power and achieve something greater than what he had before.

 

[Holy God]

-Naruto makes 2 clones. Each has 33% of his chakra.
-Each clone makes 1 Kurama Avatar.

Now, because the chakra is split, if 100% Naruto could make 10 Kurama Avatars before running out of chakra, each clone can make 3 or so, because the Avatar doesn't use a percentage of chakra, but a flat amount of chakra every time.

These avatars are not 1/3 as powerful as 100% Naruto, because the starting amount of chakra doesn't matter, it's the cost of the jutsu that matters.

By your logic, for every clone naruto makes, his rasengan's power is split in half, and we know that's absolutely not true.



With normal jutsus this is true. A fireball can be made into a bigger fireball, and a rasengan can be made into a bigger rasengan. But for reasons we don't know, it is apparent that the BM cloak cannot be increased in potency simply by adding chakra, probably because of Naruto's skill or their level of sync.

Naruto's combining of the avatars proves this rule, rather than being an exception to it.

Naruto's synchronization with Kurama is perfect and his manipulation of chakra along with Kurama's knowledge should be top-tier(even the DataBook exaggerates him to being able to understand all things chakra while under Six Paths Sage Mode), so it couldn't be for those reasons. It simply doesn't make sense to me why a giant construct of chakra would not be changable unless receiving chakra from an external region. We've even seen Perfect Susano'o able to take the form of the nine-tails.

 

[Nagi]

Impossible. Naruto could never hold that level of power with a regular Kurama Avatar.

Naruto couldn't perform that action alone which is why he created clones to help perform the task on entirely different level. The principles in how that functions are displayed with the Ashura Avatar just the same. What Naruto couldn't do alone, he creates the clones and fuse with them to boost his own power and achieve something greater than what he had before.

This is why Sasuke is the best at chakra manipulation, chakra tranformation, and chakra control. Those are things that Naruto can't do by himself all the time. Need his clones to help with the manipulation.

 

[lndra]

This is why Sasuke is the best at chakra manipulation, chakra tranformation, and chakra control. Those are things that Naruto can't do by himself all the time. Need his clones to help with the manipulation.

Sasuke had to use the Bijuu power to amount to a whole new form, and created the attack with their power. He couldn't do that alone. As follows Naruto needed clones to fuse because obviously he cannot amount to that power alone either. I would say they are pretty even in those categories.

 

[UchihasRightfulHeir]

Impossible. Naruto could never hold that level of power with a regular Kurama Avatar.
@UchihaRightfulHeir - Read below

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The problem here is the confusion on what Ashuar Avatar is, and how it came to be.

Naruto clones when they get destroyed, their chakra returns back to the owner. Understand this much. When Naruto creates clones, they basically can perform and act as the real Naruto. Meaning they are as powerful as the real Naruto (until they get destroyed obviously). When Naruto created Kurama Avatar clones and fused with them, their chakra didn't return to Naruto. Their powers fused together. Now that's where your confusion lies, because you believe if Naruto split his chakra evenly with the Kurama Clones, wouldn't the fusion to create the Ashura Avatar just make Naruto whole again? No.

You are forgetting that the fusion and the core principles in how they operate with Naruto. They aren't returning to the original, they boosting the original Kurama Avatar's power and durability. If the power was just to return to Naruto, then the chakra would dissipate and Naruto would be whole. Look at this example:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Naruto couldn't perform that action alone which is why he created clones to help perform the task on entirely different level. The principles in how that functions are displayed with the Ashura Avatar just the same. What Naruto couldn't do alone, he creates the clones and fuse with them to boost his own power and achieve something greater than what he had before.

But they would be boosting the original Kurama avatar's(that now has a third of it's original power) power and durability. And I thought naruto creates clones to make rasengan simply for chakra manipulation purposes. I agree they help with chakra manipulation because it's True that single naruto on his own cannot form that, BUT he can output that level of power on his own, the clones just help chakra manipulation to change it's shape and imbibe wind element.

 

[Holy God]

Impossible. Naruto could never hold that level of power with a regular Kurama Avatar.
@UchihaRightfulHeir - Read below

-


The problem here is the confusion on what Ashuar Avatar is, and how it came to be.

Naruto clones when they get destroyed, their chakra returns back to the owner. Understand this much. When Naruto creates clones, they basically can perform and act as the real Naruto. Meaning they are as powerful as the real Naruto (until they get destroyed obviously). When Naruto created Kurama Avatar clones and fused with them, their chakra didn't return to Naruto. Their powers fused together. Now that's where your confusion lies, because you believe if Naruto split his chakra evenly with the Kurama Clones, wouldn't the fusion to create the Ashura Avatar just make Naruto whole again? No.

You are forgetting that the fusion and the core principles in how they operate with Naruto. They aren't returning to the original, they boosting the original Kurama Avatar's power and durability. If the power was just to return to Naruto, then the chakra would dissipate and Naruto would be whole. Look at this example:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Naruto couldn't perform that action alone which is why he created clones to help perform the task on entirely different level. The principles in how that functions are displayed with the Ashura Avatar just the same. What Naruto couldn't do alone, he creates the clones and fuse with them to boost his own power and achieve something greater than what he had before.

I understand that your saying that the chakra of the two other cloaks are going straight to the original's. That is perfectly understandable. The problem is establishing why Naruto can't simply increase the chakra the original already has. If three people, one with a shotgun, one with a rocket launcher, and another with an assault rifle shoot at a target, then there is quite a lot of damage. If one person were to have a gun that shoots all the same bullets together, then the damage is going to be equivalent to the previous.

Your Naruto example, while appearing that it'd explain your exact theory, is actually showcasing Naruto's lack of skill at the technique. He couldn't perform the task by himself because of the amount of shape manipulation required. It's not a factor of chakra because he had enough to do it himself. The clones from the fight with Sasuke do nothing to aid Naruto except move closer as to join chakra.

 

[Nagi]

Sasuke had to use the Bijuu power to amount to a whole new form, and created the attack with their power. He couldn't do that alone. As follows Naruto needed clones to fuse because obviously he cannot amount to that power alone either. I would say they are pretty even in those categories.

Ain't talking about the result. I'm talking about the process of creating that result. How did naruto did his first rasengan? He used a shadow clone to help him create it. What Im saying is that Naruto gotta break out the shadow clones to create an OP Jutsu while Sasuke just do it himself. But gotta give Naruto credit for coming up with the idea of using shadow clones for that type of shit.

 

[lndra]

But they would be boosting the original Kurama avatar's(that now has a third of it's original power) power and durability. And I thought naruto creates clones to make rasengan simply for chakra manipulation purposes. I agree they help with chakra manipulation because it's True that single naruto on his own cannot form that, BUT he can output that level of power on his own, the clones just help chakra manipulation to change it's shape and imbibe wind element.

No, they are combining efforts. Basically think of it like like a megazord from power rangers (if you have seen that as a kid).

You have three zords (clones), that are strong by themselves, but when they fuse together and create the megazoard (Ashura Avatar) they become stronger, and more durable than what they could do alone. It's basically those same fundamentals being displayed here.

I understand that your saying that the chakra of the two other cloaks are going straight to the originals. That is perfectly understandable. The problem is establishing why Naruto can't simply increase the chakra the original already has. If three people, one with a shotgun, one with a rocket launcher, and another with an assault rifle shoot at a target, then there is quite a lot of damage. If one person were to have a gun that shoots all the same bullets together, then the damage is going to be equivalent to the previous.

Your Naruto example, while appearing that it'd explain your exact theory, is actually showcasing Naruto's lack of skill at the technique. He couldn't perform the task. It's not a factor of chakra however because he had enough to do it himself. The clones from the fight with Sasuke do nothing to aid Naruto except move closer as to join chakra.

Because the Kurama Avatar clones aren't giving chakra to Naruto, they aren't increasing his overall input, they are increasing his OUTPUT. You see if Naruto's one head was creating a Tailed Beast Ball, it would be the normal and average size. But if all three heads together worked on creating the Bijuudama, it would amount to a whole new size, and power. Those very principles are being demonstrated here.

The example was used to showcase how the clones operate even when Naruto was not fused by himself. It wasn't that Naruto lacked the power to create it, it was that Naruto needed them to increase his output. A normal FRS would be about this size:

Spoiler

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Compare that with the scan I showed a post ago.

 

[Holy God]

No, they are combining efforts. Basically think of it like like a megazord from power rangers (if you have seen that as a kid).

You have three zords (clones), that are strong by themselves, but when they fuse together and create the megazoard (Ashura Avatar) they become stronger, and more durable than what they could do alone. It's basically those same fundamentals being displayed here.


Because the Kurama Avatar clones aren't giving chakra to Naruto, they aren't increasing his overall input, they are increasing his OUTPUT. You see if Naruto's one head was creating a Tailed Beast Ball, it would be the normal and average size. But if all three heads together worked on creating the Bijuudama, it would amount to a whole new size, and power. Those very principles are being demonstrated here.

The example was used to showcase how the clones operate even when Naruto was not fused by himself. It wasn't that Naruto lacked the power to create it, it was that Naruto needed them to increase his output. A normal FRS would be about this size:

Spoiler

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Compare that with the scan I showed a post ago.

I now see where you're getting at in that the extra hands support his attack to get them larger and stronger. The root problem though is why can't Naruto simply add the hands himself by introducing more chakra.

There's then also how the three-headed one would come out on top to the one-headed in anything other then the charging of techniques. Speed nor defensive capabilties should increase due to extra arms.

 

[KingHashirama]

So you think Naruto hitting someone with 3 rasengan made by himself and 2 clones, is just as effective as Naruto hitting that person with a single rasengan by himself?

Clones = Naruto's power

Naruto using clones =/= Him increasing the power

Naruto using clones = him using more of his power, while lessening his main's.

Increase in versatility = /= increase in power.

Unless you somehow believe him merging the clones back into himself that were made from the chakra he already had is going to make him stronger in power.. then go ahead.. but as far as power goes... they are the same.


With the extra arms hes able to focus his chakra more and at a faster rate. His power nonetheless is the SAME.

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[lndra]

I now see where you're getting at in that the extra hands support his attack to get them larger and stronger. The root problem though is why can't Naruto simply add the hands himself by introducing more chakra.

There's then also how the three-headed one would come out on top to the one-headed in anything other then the charging of techniques. Speed nor defensive capabilties should increase due to extra arms.

Because more chakra isn't the problem with the ability being stronger, it's really how much he can handle at one time by himself. It's not just hands that were used to create the TBBFRS, it was two other Naruto's who were inside of the Kurama Avatar's when fused to make the Ashura Avatar (look closer).

Spoiler

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They all had a play in making the TBBFRS. Similar to how clones help Naruto create the FRS.

 

[Transcendence]

There's an easy and simple way to disprove this thread without having to make this go to ten pages. First off, Kishimoto does scaling pretty well in terms of portrayal. In one on one fights, especially for rivals, during clashes, there's always a display of equality. The original Chidori vs Rasengan clash, the Shinsenjuu vs Armoured PS Kurama clash and most recently, the panels showing the Indra's Arrow Bow from the Bijuu PS contrary to Naruto's Ashura's Avatar. Now, PS and Naruto's regular avatar are right around or equal when it comes to durability, correct? When the Indra's Arrow and RS clash happened, both avatars were knocked out of the air but not destroyed. They slowly dissipated until they dissipated on the ground (evident by the size of the fall when they both fell to the ground and the way Kishi drew the impact). So that is concrete proof that they're equal in durability. Just like the equal PS and Kurama Avatar! So I don't get why you think that Ashura's Avatar wouldn't again stalemate the Bijuu PS. It's maniacal to think otherwise.