[VS] Zoro vs Vergo
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Well i'd say that before G4, i'd say they were more or less comparable. The only area where Luffy had Zoro beat was in sheer speed(gear second). Zoro has superior endurance. Their reaction and striking speed is more or less the same. Zoro exceeded the max power of Luffy's elephant gatling with his sanzen sekai.
And unlike Luffy, his powerful attacks have no penality in striking speed. With armament you never know but considering it was Zoro's speciality, i always got the tendency to give Zoro the edge in the area, especially since Luffy has lackluster feats(Bellamy bypassing it when Zoro could bypass a full body haki user) and armament is really great defensive wise, especially when you add it to Zoro's heavy tankiness, so i always personally perceived Zoro as the better fighter(but i could understand if someone could think otherwise). So i assume that gear4 just allowed Luffy to create the gap enough for him to mid diff Zoro
In terms of potential, i'd say it would depend on what Ashura became after the timeskip. If it became a complete new and powerful mode, i could see Zoro closing the gap. It's for Sanji that i'm not certain because he already showed the evolution of his Enies Lobby power-up(Hell Memories), so unless he has a new mode(like 99 recept cuisine), it's hard to say
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Well damn I'll reply to this when I get on the computer lol.
While yes Zoro doesn't have to sacrifice speed, that doesn't necessarily mean that Zoro is fast enough to dodge and that doesn't necessarily make his moves slow and considering the large AoE of the gatling I don't see Zoro dodging. Luffy's feats aren't' lacklustre feats with haki or did you forget his clash with Chinjao, as for Hody as we've seen haki is weaker to pricing attacks. An example of this is when a regular sword slash from Law still makes Mingo's hand bleed, as for Bellamy Luffy was holding back a lot. Though I do think Zoro's CoA is a tad better of equal with Luffy's.
I doubt Ashura became a full mode but we still have thing like Zoro's other eye, along with other potential things he could do with haki. As for Sanji you really can't write off Hell's Memories as Sanji's progress because it really just ignited his body and nothing else I doubt Sanji's progression is that small.
I never said they weren't comparable because Luffy would struggle to beat Zoro before G4 no doubt. But I do disagree with what you said though. Luffy before G4 was faster in terms of footspeed but I would also say he trumps Zoro in raw physical strength along with his diverse move-set but most of it is useless against Zoro. As for his max output I honestly disagree Luffy's Gataling was going to destroy a ISLAND sized ship, while Zoro cut in half a arguably city level Golem. While Luffy is pulverizing Noah while cut in half Pica which overall packs less energy than Luffy's attack. At best the attack's are comparable with Luffy having the edge.
While yes Zoro doesn't have to sacrifice speed, that doesn't necessarily mean that Zoro is fast enough to dodge and that doesn't necessarily make his moves slow and considering the large AoE of the gatling I don't see Zoro dodging. Luffy's feats aren't' lacklustre feats with haki or did you forget his clash with Chinjao, as for Hody as we've seen haki is weaker to pricing attacks. An example of this is when a regular sword slash from Law still makes Mingo's hand bleed, as for Bellamy Luffy was holding back a lot. Though I do think Zoro's CoA is a tad better of equal with Luffy's.
I doubt Ashura became a full mode but we still have thing like Zoro's other eye, along with other potential things he could do with haki. As for Sanji you really can't write off Hell's Memories as Sanji's progress because it really just ignited his body and nothing else I doubt Sanji's progression is that small.
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I disagree with Luffy having more physical strength than Zoro. Luffy uses the elaticity of his rubber to increase the damage and it's impossible that base Luffy has more strength than Zoro. It was said by Brook that the power behind your flying slashes depends on physical strength(but i guess swordsmanship skill also has something to do with it) and Zoro's 1080Pound Cannon matched the power of Luffy's grizzly magnum and Zoro likely didn't even use haki in it
Actually Noah is half island size. Besides, while it's true the sea king said he could have destroyed it with enough time, the damage output wasn't that great. In the end, when you look at the picture carefully, you'd realize, he only destroyed the superstructure of Noah.
And considering the amount of time he spent on it, i don't find it extremely impressive(it's impressive but not as much as moves like Punk Hazard Law's mountain cut or Dressrosa Zoro's golem Pica cut), because the energy in Zoro's singular Sanzen Sekai slash was much greater and it's a technique he can spam too.
The Elephant Gatling on the other side is multiple Elephant Gun used in succession. The power between a singular Elephant Gun is roughly town level. With Elephant Gatling he gains great area of destructive effect, but not more destructive power
Here is the final damage he made, despite the considerable amount of time he spent on it with his elephant gatling attack
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Via calculations, it was rated to be roughly 2Megatons of destructive power as opposed to Zoro's 11megatons(roughly) of destructive power
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w.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=25238I don't think Zoro needs to dodge it. There is a speed penality in Luffy's gear3 moves. The time Luffy would take to pump his arms, throw them, retract them back and so on and so on with the weighting effect created by the large arms in gear3 reducing his speed, Zoro has all the time it take to fire of a flying slash and stop him mid-attack and those flying slashes are extremely fast to cast. Even someoe like Pica who can instantly maneuver through rock couldn't react to it the time it took him to look away from Zoro for a second
No, i'm not forgetting the Chinjao clash, but according to Diamante, it was a conqueror haki demonstration. It seems that Oda draw conqueror haki clashes in black(like for armament) but alongside electrical effect surrounding the area. It's how he drew the conqueror haki clash between Doflamingo and Luffy too. So i'm not certain how they compare to each other in actual armament. Yes i know he won the final clash, but i always assumed it was because of the superiority in fire power behind his Thor Elephant comparatively to Chinjao's attack. Not to mention, Chinjao even implied that he was sick even before the tournament and that the fight against Luffy worsened his state and we know through Whitebeard that sickness can affect your haki
It's true, but at the same time, Pica seemed to be sure Zoro couldn't cut through him despite his haki and Doflamingo also thought Vergo could block Law's cutting ability with his haki, so it seems that maybe it's just Mingo or Luffy who are lackluster in armament. Considering how complete of a character Mingo, it's possible that he neglected some haki area training like Rayleigh implied during Luffy's training(that there are some who tend to develop the forms of haki irrationally)
Well i think Ashura may become a mode mainly because the name is "demonic spirit: 9swords style", something heavily suggesting that it can become a new style just like Itoryu, Nitoryu, Santoryu were for Zoro. Before the timeskip, i always assumed he couldn't integrate it into a mode because he didn't have much control of it, but after 2years of training i don't see the idea far-fetched really, but of course, it will remain a speculation until proven wrong. For Sanji i wasn't trying to say it was all of his evolution. After all, no one could have thought Luffy had a gear4 before 2-3 chapters, so why not Sanji?
But i was just pointing out the fact it's hard to imagine his development unlike with Zoro for example who still had something left in the bag that we know. I don't get how hell memories actually works because while ignitating his entire body in fire, he still hits people with his kicks, so what's the purpose really? Is it that the flames around it are cumulating on a singular point or something when he attacks? Maybe just like for Diable Jambe, he can use multiple attacks in this state. I guess only time could tell
No necessarily Luffy has shown time and time again that he has more strength than Zoro even without his DF. A prime example would be Luffy easily flinging to gold ball about along with himself being able to push two city blocks down while being jammed between them. Flying slashes arent' directly link to strength as in Thriller Bark when Zoro gets Shisui he notes that his pound canon is stronger.
Fishman Island is multiple KM wide so even being half of that is still impressive, the Sea King said he would of destroyed it so we can't assume he would of been able to destroy before it hit the Fishman Island and as for the damage input Luffy was injured and about to pass out while trying to destroy Noah.
That's not really fair, Luffy's attack consist of move which require multiple blows and off the bat the attack hich only uses one blow is going to be stronger than move which uses multiple blows when you compare them blow for blow.
The DC of each individual blow isn't stronger but the overall DC of the gatling is much higher that not really debatable.
Here is the final damage he made, despite the considerable amount of time he spent on it with his elephant gatling attack
Again Zoro's move is going to pack more of a punch hence if they were to collide blow for blow but the gatling can overall do more in one go and I don't see how Zoro would block it with
G3 isn't as nearly as slow as you're implying hence why it's hit many fast people like Lucci before, plus I doubt Zoro is firing off really strong slash before Lufy could fire his gatling so at best Luffy will take an attack to give one out.
Terry please stop tell me you're joking, it's painfully obvious they was using haki. Oda wouldn't confuse the user and made King's haki black aswell, again Luffy and Mingo was using hardening haki aswell while you also have a point a part of him beating Chinjao was due to the attack superiority but the same could be said for most clashes. While you do have a point that Chinajo didn't look well but it's still impressive regardless.
I doubt it Mingo has solid haki and has been blocking the majority of Luffy's moves with it before G4, but I do think haki is better against blunt damage though. Because come on which is more powerful a normal sword slash from Law when he's not suing his DF or a jet atling (Mingo was bleeding from the sowrd but not the gatling).
You may have a point but it doesn't really seem like a thing Zoro can sustain for long and I can't imagine going into a melee with 3heads lol. As for Sanji I get what you're saying, Oda could pull anything from his ass and make it look good.
Not much to say here I agree.
Not really, those feats by no means proves that Luffy is more capable than Zoro. If you're going to say a character is better than other at something then you're supposed to compare their feats and if Luffy succeeded where Zoro failed then only you can say Luffy is better and vice versa at least not when the other guys gets same level of hype from the writer in that particular regard.
Remember one thing, swords doesn't make you strong like DF's no matter what. It's just that with shusui Zoro was able to give maximum output as the accuracy of the sword was more than the previous ones. No matter how good I am at something if I use faulty or low quality equipment then it'll end up reducing my performance as whole. Zoro always puts as much effort behind his attacks but all swords prior to shusui failed to produce accurate results because of lack of quality.
I did a quick research on Noah and it wasn't actually as big as half of FMI. It was much smaller and the part that was destroyed by Luffy was less than half of Noah. In below pit you can clearly see that Noah was twice as big as Royal palace or something and is much smaller than FMI.
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Luffy being injured is more or less irrelevant as it'd take just as many hits and as much struggle even if he wasn't injured. So the fact that Zoro was able to pull a level of feat which is more or less one par with that of Luffy without much struggle remains unchanged.
Regardless of whether it's fair or not which is a matter of opinion, the fact that G3 Luffy needs more time and more no of hits to replicate Zoro level feat remains intact. As Bogard said Luffy's capacity to destroy things is more than that of Zoro but Zoro's attacks are stronger which makes big difference in a battle. If Luffy were to fight Zoro and take his attack head on then he's suffer the damage without a doubt as he can't produce strong enough attack in time(In G3).
I don't really get what you're trying to imply here. Zoro hits Luffy even before Luffy can pump him arm with air let alone Luffy getting ready to use G3, imbuing haki, initiating the attack and slowly gaining speed. Zoro has plenty of time and within that time Zoro can even use multiple attacks of that level which far surpasses that of anything Luffy can produce in time which will result in Luffy getting injured.
Lucci dodged it like nothing and Luffy was only able to hit him because Lucci was heavily injured. A mere fodder reacted to Luffy's G2 and even inflected poison into his body so thinking Zoro couldn't react to G3 speed is nothing but a Joke at this point.
Not really, Minato was bleeding from regular punches and kicks of Luffy despite using COA so I doubt his haki is as great as people are making it out to be. Joker is more of a fruit user than haki user. Law's powers are well known to completely ignore the hardness of objects so you can't really decide the level of his haki based on that. It happened inside room which means that the cut was influenced by Law's powers. But I can't really see Vergo's haki being cut that easily, otherwise Law would never bother himself by making a mountain level room which would obviously consume decent amount of his stamina.
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Yes really, Zoro and Luffy don't have the same amount of hype from Oda sop get that out of your head. The gag fight at Whiskey peak isn't evidence, it's been clear as day Luffy is the strongest especially in terms of physical strength. Luffy's physical strength feats badly outclasses Zoro's who best feat is throwing a building while Luffy pushing two city blocks away and hurling a giant ball is much more impressive.
Irrelevant, Brook said that a physical strength is directly linked to your flying slash when that's clearly not the case and they are other factors.
Still doesn't matter FI is still multiple KM wide which would still make Noah larger than Pica in comparison by a lot.
Please tell me you're ****ing joking, Luffy was losing consciousness. If Luffy's is passing out the strength of his punches are not going to be as strong, or let me guess fading consciousness doesn't matter :sdo:.
Again this is only relevant if Luffy and Zoro decide to trade blows, Bogard said that Zoro's could destroy morw which is not the case, Luffy can destroy more but Zoro can do more in a single blow which only matter if both decide to trade blows.
Zoro has multiple attack stronger than the Elephant Gatling GTFO. Again the process for G3 isn't slowing and nether is the imbuing of haki, like DD was able to protect himself with haki when G4 Luffy hit him haki isn't slow. Though since Luffy hands are big it will take longer. Let me guess, you think doing the Gatling takes long because of the anime only scene of him staring slowly, when in the manga he goes from straight from a Elephant Gun into a fully speed Gatling.
One thing Lucci was faster than Pre TS Zoro and still got hit by the giant pistol, while Luffys striking speed has increased a lot over the TS. Thinking Luffy can't tag Zoro with G3 at this point is a joke.
Mingo blocked a Jet Gatling and other attacks that hit him he said they tickled. Law's power can be negated by haki, plus his actual DF doesn't cut your skin but Mingo was bleeding. Dunno why you're bring up Vergo, but while we're on the case that cut didn't take up a lot of stamina Law seem fine after.
Bold claims without any back up are no good in a discussion. Zoro physically matched Luffy. Yet for someone reason (reason isn't given :yeah
it shouldn't be taken as an evidence. Again what you're doing is bad way of comparing two characters. It would have been cool if you actually explain why it's irrelevant. No one will take you seriously if you actually think a sword would magically make you strong. A sword is as strong as it's wilder and accuracy of an attack depends on the quality of the sword. There are swords of different qualities in OP world. Shusui happened to be a sword with more quality than any other sword of Zoro, that's it. Other than that it's nothing more than an iron object. Let Usopp have two swords with one of them being shusui and it makes no difference.
Are you telling me that your statements which has no explanation are more credible than a manga statement?
Why are you comparing Noah with FMI when Noah's barely bigger than Royal palace of FMI? Noah is bigger than Pica but not the part which was destroyed by Luffy. More than half of ship was intact so I don't even get why you tend to compare Pica with Noah when what actually destroyed by Luffy was Noah's super structure.
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Okay, how much powerful his punches would be if he was not losing concious? Can he destroy super structure in two hits? 5? Or 10? It doesn't really change the fact that it takes far more attacks from Luffy to pull it than what it taks for Zoro. Because his single hit attacks are far less powerful that of Zoro.
Obviously Luffy can destroy more but the difference is that Luffy need more time than Zoro in which case Zoro gains complete advantage over Luffy. If Luffy were to try and counter 10000 worlds with any of his G3 moves then Luffy will get cut without a doubt. Only possible option for him would be to avoid the attack.
It's physically impossible for Luffy to have maximum speed at the very beginning of the attack. It's been already hinted on multiple occasions that Luffy becomes slow in G3. Even Joker himself said that Luffy is wide open while using G3. Again even a fodder from FMI reacted to G2 which is far far faster than G3 so thinking Luffy's speed in G3 will be a problem for Zoro is nothing but a Joke.
Luffy never hit Lucci with G3 when he's trying to avoid.
We don't know whether if Luffy was using haki back then. As far as we know Luffy was overpowering Joker's haki with regular punches when their COA's clashed with each other. I ws saying that laws's haki can't be determined by his attacks as his attacks are always influenced by his fruit. Joker is fighting without any struggle despite being at verge of death , same goes for Law. Him looking fine is not equal to him not losing most of his stamina,. Law himself said that using his fruit would consume his stamina by a good deal yet he went as far as using biggest room apart form the one he used at Dressrosa to cut Vergo which explains that his haki can't be cut down by normal means where as that wasn't the case for Joker which would hint that his COA might actually be inferior to that of Vergo.
Sorry for the late reply. I wasn't finding motivation to continue here U_U
You must also take into consideration power scaling. Base Luffy's strength isn't what it used to be comparatively to post-timeskip character. Gear2 attacks were supposed to double his physical strength but we've seen multiple mid level characters like Caesar or Gladius brushing off those attacks without slowing down when back in Enies Lobby it was heavily hurting the likes of Lucci. Luffy's bazooka was matched Zoro's 108 pound cannon against the aqua laguna, when now Zoro's 1080pound cannon is comparable to Luffy's grizzly magnum(a hakified gear3 move), so i have a hard time seeing how base Luffy's physical strength compete again as it used to
On the other side, it took Luffy at the very least 3minutes(while being conservative) to destroy the superstructure of Noah(something rated to be roughly 800m)
Well maybe the quality of the blade has an influence, but physical strength still takes a great part of it if we take Brook's statement into consideration and he is a swordsman too, so i doubt he'd lack this much knowledge
You must also take into consideration power scaling. Base Luffy's strength isn't what it used to be comparatively to post-timeskip character. Gear2 attacks were supposed to double his physical strength but we've seen multiple mid level characters like Caesar or Gladius brushing off those attacks without slowing down when back in Enies Lobby it was heavily hurting the likes of Lucci. Luffy's bazooka was matched Zoro's 108 pound cannon against the aqua laguna, when now Zoro's 1080pound cannon is comparable to Luffy's grizzly magnum(a hakified gear3 move), so i have a hard time seeing how base Luffy's physical strength compete again as it used to
Well he started punching it sometime after Chopper used his Monster Point and was still punching it by the time he reverted back(and we know the mode last 3minutes), so during all that time he "only" destroyed the superstructure. Unless Noah was falling like a snail, i have a hard time believing he'd have managed, at least not with the move he was repeteadly using
Actually i think you're making a mistake here. Sanzen Sekai is a spamable move too:
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He slashed it something like a dozen time, all that before the upper half of the golem even moved much. On the other side, it took Luffy at the very least 3minutes(while being conservative) to destroy the superstructure of Noah(something rated to be roughly 800m)
You're making a mistake here i believe. Actually the DC rated here is the resultive energy after Luffy destroyed the superstructure, basically the resultive damage output on the ship after the Elephant gatling, not singular hits
Lucci has only been hit by G3 attacks one time and that was because he underestimated the power behind the attack, thinking he could block it with a crossed arm tekkai
We barely know a thing about the difference between black haki and invisible haki. All what we make in debates concerning it at this point in time is speculation and that's the result of the poor explanation Oda made around it in the manga, so i don't see the idea as far-fetched really. It's a fact that both times we've seen conqueror haki clashes(Doflamingo/Chinjao vs Luffy), the color was as black as with armament usage with the additional shockwave effect as the only distinction, so it's not at all unlikely that the color is also used to emphasize conqueror. Of course it's possible that both are combined, but we can't say one thing for sure at this point
I'm not saying Mingo doesn't have powerful armament, just saying it may not be his forte. But true you've a point that a stationary blade shouldn't have more power than a jet gatling. I guess sword represent a particular weakness of armament then. Though it probably varies from users to users(Vergo could block and it was implied Pica could too with Luffy saying it was a particular weakness of his haki) or attack power(Tashigi level attacks can't be compared to Zoro's for example)
Well just look at the fight against Kaku lol. He blasted through his amanedachi and went in melee range(Kaku was quite some distance away) to cut him
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Kiri Starstalker
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Uzumaki Macho
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Zoro physically matched Luffy at the start of the series in a gag fight, the points I made where later on where it's apparent Luffy pulled away from Zoro. Plus when he matched him it was in a gag fight.Bold claims without any back up are no good in a discussion. Zoro physically matched Luffy. Yet for someone reason (reason isn't given :yeah
Do you not have a brain..... It's irrelevant because you're saying that Brook said that a flying slahs in completely depends on someone's physical strength when Zoro shows us otherwise when he gets Shisui. Again you keep on saying the accuracy of the move is increased when Zoro says that the power of his slash increased. It's not rocket science....The power behind Zoro's flying slash was greater when he got Shisui meaning that physical strength isn't the only factor, im not saying that his slash is completely depends on the on the sword but it is a factor making Brook's statement incorrect.
Again it been smaller than the palace still makes him much bigger than Pica. Noah is about 2.6KM wide and 4.5KM thick so even half of Noah which Luffy took out is still bigger than Pica who's less than a KM in length and width plus what Luffy was doing (pulverizing the ship) takes a lot more energy than slicing it.
Not the point, Luffy would of destroyed Noah faster it's the fact you're shrugging off Luffy was losing conscious.
Again not really my point is that Luffy can destroy more and the comparison you made isn't relevant because Luffy does this in one move Zoro trying to spam moves that much will only tire him out, again Zoro's is only overpowering Luffy if they decide to trade blows.
Okay so I point out an example where Luffy goes to full speed straight away but you say no okay..... No Joker said that Luffy's attack were to slow to hit Joker (who's overall stronger than Zoro) when compared to his G2 which were fast but lacked the punch to finish DD. Again just because Luffy was using G2 doesn't mean he was going all out, people like the fodder reacted but when Luffy was pissed against people like Harjun they weren't able to react. So to think Zoro is dancing around Luffy's G3 is laughable.
Again Lucci was faster than Zoro pre TS so I don't get it?
Still doesn't matter Law wasn't suing haki either and he hurt DD unless Law's roomless hakiless sword slash isn't stronger than a jet gatling. Again his attack wasn't being influenced because he actually made DD bleed with his cuts and you should know by now that a Law's attacks when room is up don't do that. Law did not look low on stamina or out of breath when he attacked Vergo meaning that he was good stamina wise plus Law is a stamina freak.