[Discussion] IMHO Yamamoto>Hogyoku Aizen

[Forbidden Tale]

Visible age doesn't matter, Yama's Lieutenant is almost as old as he is and he doesn't look as old now does he? Toshiro is about as old as Momo, Rukia, and Renji yet he looks younger.

It was never said that Yamamoto's VC was nearly as old as Yamamoto. We just know that they are both older than 2000 years. In flaschback Yamamoto looks quite older than Chojiro.

Toshiro is special case.

And no, Ichibei should indeed be older, he pre-dates Soul Society. He named it and everything else after all.
Yamamot also said that he was only the strongest Shinigami within the last thousand years, which implies that there were those who were stronger than him.
Obviously Ichibei and Nimaiya should both be older and stronger. :hmm:

No, Ichibe don't pre dates Soul Society, Soul Society has history of million years. Because he named doesn't mean that he was first citizen of it. Ichibe renamed Shinuchi into bankai. It's same thing as other stuff in SS. They were called by "fake names" until Ichibe came and renamed them by their true names.

Yamamoto was even stated to have oldest zanpakuto, or one of the oldest, which prove how old he is, Oetsu is one who made zanpakutos.

Plus, all Royal Guards served under Yamamoto, if Ichibe or Oetsu are older/stronger than I'm sure they wouldn't really surve under him.

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[Lord of Akatsuki]

It was never said that Yamamoto's VC was nearly as old as Yamamoto. We just know that they are both older than 2000 years. In flaschback Yamamoto looks quite older than Chojiro.

I was using this as an example, we don't know their exact ages, just that Chojiro is almost as old.

Toshiro is special case.

Toshiro is not a special case, Ginrei is another who looks old, but isn't even close to Yamamoto's and Chojiro's age, Shinigami age differently.

No, Ichibe don't pre dates Soul Society, Soul Society has history of million years. Because he named doesn't mean that he was first citizen of it. Ichibe renamed Shinuchi into bankai. It's same thing as other stuff in SS. They were called by "fake names" until Ichibe came and renamed them by their true names.

Yamamoto was even stated to have oldest zanpakuto, or one of the oldest, which prove how old he is, Oetsu is one who made zanpakutos.

Sorry, I worded it badly.
But yeah, dude is the one that named everything. He does pre-date the Soul Society as it is known in the Manga.
What I actually meant to say is that he pre-dates the Shinigami.

Ichibe was probably the first ever Shinigami, which would make him logically more powerful than Yamamoto. Ichibe named everything in Soul Society, including words such as "Bankai" which have been in use for over 2,000 years (long before the Gotei 13 even existed). He was probably the one who changed the name from "Balancers" to "Shinigami", and was the first person to ever have Bankai due to his ability (and possibly Shikai).

Yamamoto was never stated to have the oldest, sure one of the oldest, but not the oldest.
Yep, Oestu Nimaiya created all Zanpakuto, that implies that he is older than Yamamoto.
Both Oestu and Ichibei are older than 2000 years old.
It was shown that in Yamamoto's young days people where carrying Zanpakutos (including himself).

With these conclusions you have to at least realise that both Oestu and Ichibei are older than Yamamoto.

Plus, all Royal Guards served under Yamamoto, if Ichibe or Oetsu are older/stronger than I'm sure they wouldn't really surve under him.

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There is no proof that Ichibei or Oetsu served under Yamamoto, only the other Royal Guard members did.
We're talking about the two oldest members of the RG organisation. What applies to the others doesn't for them unless proven otherwise.
Serving under someone doesn't necessarily mean your weaker either. But it doesn't matter, both Oestu and Ichibei pre-date Gotei, there's no proof that they both served, and were captains of the Gotei.

Edit: Your just trying to start a fight with me now aren't you. In two different threads as well. h:

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I was using this as an example, we don't know their exact ages, just that Chojiro is almost as old.

Your example is invalid, because Chojiro is not almost as old as Yamamoto. It's just that they are both older than 2000 years.

Toshiro is not a special case, Ginrei is another who looks old, but isn't even close to Yamamoto's and Chojiro's age, Shinigami age differently.

Toshiro is special case, because Toshiro always had younger appearance. Which is likely a consequence of the disorder. Even he said in his omake that it was weird that in a couple of years he didn't grow inch.

You have no proof to show that Ginrei just looks old. Because he was captain for no more than 100 years before TBTP arc, doesn't have to do with age, but with talent. Matter of fact it was stated in SS arc that Byakuya is stronger than him (same Byakuya that was no more than mid tier). So yeah his talent wasn't really big.

Sorry, I worded it badly.
But yeah, dude is the one that named everything. He does pre-date the Soul Society as it is known in the Manga.
What I actually meant to say is that he pre-dates the Shinigami.

Nope, you are wrong, again. He doesn't pre date SS, he just named everything. Just like he renamed bankai, he renamed other things in Soul Society.

Ichibe was probably the first ever Shinigami,

That probably is not just debetable, but it was never hinted in the manga.

which would make him logically more powerful than Yamamoto.

Which logicaly wouldn't, because he served under him.

Ichibe named everything in Soul Society, including words such as "Bankai" which have been in use for over 2,000 years (long before the Gotei 13 even existed). He was probably the one who changed the name from "Balancers" to "Shinigami", and was the first person to ever have Bankai due to his ability (and possibly Shikai).

It's obvious that he wasn't first person to have bankai. Because, if he was, than Shinuchi would never be used, he would named it right first time he saw it.

Yamamoto was never stated to have the oldest, sure one of the oldest, but not the oldest.

One of the translation says that Yamamoto's zanpakuto is oldest zanpakuto.
Other translatio says that it's oldest out of fire type zanpakutos. Fire type zanpakutos are wielded most in the series, so it's logical that first fire type zanpakuto comes as one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest zanpakuto or even oldest, prove that Yamamoto is at least from Nimaiya's period if not even older.

Yep, Oestu Nimaiya created all Zanpakuto, that implies that he is older than Yamamoto.

You are free to explain. Because I don't see how did you get that.

I explained above that Yamamoto is at least from Nimaiya's era if not even older.

Both Oestu and Ichibei are older than 2000 years old.

I agree that they are older. But it's assumptions.

It was shown that in Yamamoto's young days people where carrying Zanpakutos (including himself).

You are talking about this guys [x] and say in his young days, I am sure he had younger days, man.

With these conclusions you have to at least realise that both Oestu and Ichibei are older than Yamamoto.

You didn't even give solid argument to believe so.

There is no proof that Ichibei or Oetsu served under Yamamoto, only the other Royal Guard members did.

I posted you picture where it say "Zero Squad that are picked from Gotei captains".

We're talking about the two oldest members of the RG organisation. What applies to the others doesn't for them unless proven otherwise.

First you would need to prove that they are oldest RG members. And even if they are that still don't hold much water in "because of that they didn't serve under Yamamoto".

Serving under someone doesn't necessarily mean your weaker either.

True. But if Ichibe and Oetsu are both stronger and older than Yama, like you claim, than I don't see why they didn't became leader of shinigamis instead of him.

But it doesn't matter, both Oestu and Ichibei pre-date Gotei, there's no proof that they both served, and were captains of the Gotei.

I already gave you a proof.

It's true that they pre-date Gotei but it doesn't matter we know that Unohana, Chojiro, Tenjiro, Yamamoto (4 at least)
pre-data Gotei.

Edit: Your just trying to start a fight with me now aren't you. In two different threads as well. h:

I don't undersatnd what you mean when you say "fight". If you mean debate, than no. I don't see that in Rank the Espada thread, debate at all.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Your example is invalid, because Chojiro is not almost as old as Yamamoto. It's just that they are both older than 2000 years.

He is indeed close to Yama's age.

Toshiro is special case, because Toshiro always had younger appearance. Which is likely a consequence of the disorder. Even he said in his omake that it was weird that in a couple of years he didn't grow inch.

You have no proof to show that Ginrei just looks old. Because he was captain for no more than 100 years before TBTP arc, doesn't have to do with age, but with talent. Matter of fact it was stated in SS arc that Byakuya is stronger than him (same Byakuya that was no more than mid tier). So yeah his talent wasn't really big.

All Shinigami age differently.
Ginrei is not that old.

Nope, you are wrong, again. He doesn't pre date SS, he just named everything. Just like he renamed bankai, he renamed other things in Soul Society.

:hyper: He named the Soul Society. That's why I said he pre-dates it as we know it in the Manga.

That probably is not just debetable, but it was never hinted in the manga.



Which logicaly wouldn't, because he served under him.

Yeah, there were definitely hints.
He didn't serve under Yamamoto. :Omg:

It's obvious that he wasn't first person to have bankai. Because, if he was, than Shinuchi would never be used, he would named it right first time he saw it.

Sorry, I meant he was the first person who used Shinuchi, which is the original name for Bankai.

One of the translation says that Yamamoto's zanpakuto is oldest zanpakuto.
Other translatio says that it's oldest out of fire type zanpakutos. Fire type zanpakutos are wielded most in the series, so it's logical that first fire type zanpakuto comes as one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest zanpakuto or even oldest, prove that Yamamoto is at least from Nimaiya's period if not even older.


You are free to explain. Because I don't see how did you get that.

I explained above that Yamamoto is at least from Nimaiya's era if not even older.

Other translations are other translations
.
Dude, Nimaiya should be at the very least slightly older than Yamamoto.
I'm not gonna bother explaining.

I agree that they are older. But it's assumptions.

Not really, its clearly hinted that they are indeed older.

You are talking about this guys [x] and say in his young days, I am sure he had younger days, man.



You didn't even give solid argument to believe so.

Dude, if Yamamoto had a Zanpakuto in his younger days, as did everyone else around him, than its an obvious conclusion that not only has the Zan's been around for a while, but that the maker has been making them for a long time.

I posted you picture where it say "Zero Squad that are picked from Gotei captains".



First you would need to prove that they are oldest RG members. And even if they are that still don't hold much water in "because of that they didn't serve under Yamamoto".



True. But if Ichibe and Oetsu are both stronger and older than Yama, like you claim, than I don't see why they didn't became leader of shinigamis instead of him.

Yeah, that is only for the other members, it was mentioned somewhere that Ichibei and Nimaiya become RG members because of their contributions, which is different then being a Squad Captain.
Its obvious that they are the oldest besides Tenjiro.

:xD: Lol, you've obviously missed something in the Manga. Ichibei was revealed to be the actual 'Head of Shinigami.' Ichibei outranks Yamamoto, he is the Leader of The Royal Guard.

I already gave you a proof.

It's true that they pre-date Gotei but it doesn't matter we know that Unohana, Chojiro, Tenjiro, Yamamoto (4 at least)
pre-data Gotei.



I don't undersatnd what you mean when you say "fight". If you mean debate, than no. I don't see that in Rank the Espada thread, debate at all.

No you didn't, merely proof that the other RG members were captains.

I was saying your starting a fight with me across different threads just for the sake of it, in the previous post.

Edit: It doesn't matter anyway mate, I was just overacting. We are only debating after all.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

He is indeed close to Yama's age.

I am not not sure where are you getting this. It is quite obvious that it's not the case.

Let's look at that from this side. Kyoraku and Ukitake are a lot younger than Yamamoto. Byakuya said "Chojiro achived bankai even before Kyoraku/Ukitake", if Chojiro is close to Yamamoto's age than Byakuya's statament wouldn't make any sense, consdering, Chojiro would be much older than Kyoraku/Ukitake and than it wouldn't be weird that he achived his bankai before them. Byakuya said that because Chojiro is around same age as Kyoraku/Ukitake.

All Shinigami age differently.
Ginrei is not that old.

Again, I don't see where are you getting that Shinigami age differently. And how you know that Ginrei is not that old.

:hyper: He named the Soul Society. That's why I said he pre-dates it as we know it in the Manga.

That depends what you think when you say "pre-dates Soul Society". If you are thinking he pre dates existence of Soul Society, than you would be obviously wrong, because Soul Society has history of million years. If you think he pre dates Soul Society thinking that he pre dates it's name, but not it's history itself than I could agree. But that wouldn't prove that he is older than Yamamoto.

Yeah, there were definitely hints.

You would need to give me manga pages.

He didn't serve under Yamamoto. :Omg:

I gave you page where it was said.

Sorry, I meant he was the first person who used Shinuchi, which is the original name for Bankai.

Again, in that case he wouldn't be first to wield Shinuichi, because if he was, it's name would never be Shinuichi it would be bankai. He has power to see real name, so Shinuichi would never be used.

Other translations are other translations

What!? Both translation pretty much confirm that Yamamoto is from Nimaiya period.

Dude, Nimaiya should be at the very least slightly older than Yamamoto.
I'm not gonna bother explaining.

Not really, its clearly hinted that they are indeed older.

If you want to counter, you would need. Because I already give a couple of arguments

1. They served under him, if they were older they would be on his position, or they would be promoted to RG before he creation of G13. But as picture I said they all were captains of Gotei.
2. Yamamoto has one of the oldest, if not oldest zanpakuto, which prove that he is at least from Nimaiya's era.

And I forgot, Yamamoto was called "History of SS" by Aizen.

Dude, if Yamamoto had a Zanpakuto in his younger days, as did everyone else around him, than its an obvious conclusion that not only has the Zan's been around for a while, but that the maker has been making them for a long time.

You are forgetting that there exist even younger Yamamoto. [

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] This Yamamoto surely isn't youngest form of him. Your argument here is invalid, because if Yamamoto got his zanpakuto when he was this old, than it would stand, but Yamamoto had his zanpakuto alot earlier.

Yeah, that is only for the other members, it was mentioned somewhere that Ichibei and Nimaiya become RG members because of their contributions, which is different then being a Squad Captain.

Maybe, I am forgetting but I don't remember that being stated. Sorry but until you prove that I can't take that as fact. Tho, even if you prove that still wouldn't prove Ichigo/Nimaiya being older than Yamamoto.

Its obvious that they are the oldest besides Tenjiro.

As I said I would agree, but if you want to use that argument that would be logical fallacy, unwarranted assumptions.

:xD: Lol, you've obviously missed something in the Manga. Ichibei was revealed to be the actual 'Head of Shinigami.' Ichibei outranks Yamamoto, he is the Leader of The Royal Guard.

He wasn't revealed, Yhwach called him "Head of the Shinigami". I will remember you that Yhwach called Yamamoto by same name.

Ichibe doesn't outrank Yamamoto, because he is leader of the Royal Guard. He don't have authority over him. RG are just a couple of Shinigamis that protect SK. Only one who outrank Yamamoto are C46 and SK, they only have authority over Captain Commander postition.

The Structure of Soul Society show that as well. RG are just guards of the King, while KIng and C46 outranks CC. [

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]

No you didn't, merely proof that the other RG members were captains.

That would be true, if it was written like this "3 out of 5 members were picked from G13".

I was saying your starting a fight with me across different threads just for the sake of it, in the previous post.

Edit: It doesn't matter anyway mate, I was just overacting. We are only debating after all.

No problem.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

I am not not sure where are you getting this. It is quite obvious that it's not the case.

Let's look at that from this side. Kyoraku and Ukitake are a lot younger than Yamamoto. Byakuya said "Chojiro achived bankai even before Kyoraku/Ukitake", if Chojiro is close to Yamamoto's age than Byakuya's statament wouldn't make any sense, consdering, Chojiro would be much older than Kyoraku/Ukitake and than it wouldn't be weird that he achived his bankai before them. Byakuya said that because Chojiro is around same age as Kyoraku/Ukitake.

Chojiro was in the academy a 1000+ years before both Kyoraku and Ukitake.
I don't remember Byakuya saying that.
Chojiro is indeed older than Kyoraku and Ukitake, maybe not by much however I guess.

Again, I don't see where are you getting that Shinigami age differently. And how you know that Ginrei is not that old.

Its been noted many times that Shinigami age differently.

Unohana is older than both Kyoraku and Juushiro combined but actually looks younger.
Tenjiro doesn't look that old but he's old enough to have taught Unohana everything she knows, and he's able to refer to everyone as children (even Kyoraku and Juushiro).
Juushiro and Kyoraku are the same age but Juushiro looks younger.
Shutara looks young but she's old enough that she created the first Shihakusho uniforms. (I forgot about her).
Hiyori is a few centuries old at least, and is older than Rukia (at the very least), but looks small and young like Toshiro.
Ginrei is the 27th head of the Kuchiki family, he shouldn't be extremely old considering that there are those before him (and becasue he was only a captain 100 years ago). And many other people all seem to agree on that Ginrei is not extremely old.

That depends what you think when you say "pre-dates Soul Society". If you are thinking he pre dates existence of Soul Society, than you would be obviously wrong, because Soul Society has history of million years. If you think he pre dates Soul Society thinking that he pre dates it's name, but not it's history itself than I could agree. But that wouldn't prove that he is older than Yamamoto.

I'm talking about the latter. No one besides possibly the Soul King Pre-dates Soul Societies existence.

You would need to give me manga pages.



I gave you page where it was said.



Again, in that case he wouldn't be first to wield Shinuichi, because if he was, it's name would never be Shinuichi it would be bankai. He has power to see real name, so Shinuichi would never be used.

Don't feel like going through the manga dude, not right now.
No, you gave me pages where it was said that other members of the RG were selected from the Gotei.

May have gotten mixed up with the wiki lol.
I usually don't use it, but I do check it every so often to see what it gets wrong, recently it did get quite a few things wrong, but I do remember looking at Ichibei's profile and seeing something interesting, what that was I don't remember, but that may have been it. :'(

What!? Both translation pretty much confirm that Yamamoto is from Nimaiya period.

Please do explain. :dunno:

If you want to counter, you would need. Because I already give a couple of arguments

1. They served under him, if they were older they would be on his position, or they would be promoted to RG before he creation of G13. But as picture I said they all were captains of Gotei.
2. Yamamoto has one of the oldest, if not oldest zanpakuto, which prove that he is at least from Nimaiya's era.

And I forgot, Yamamoto was called "History of SS" by Aizen.

Manga scans that show they served under him??
Ichibei and the others were given a higher position, being in the Royal Guard.

You are forgetting that there exist even younger Yamamoto. [

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] This Yamamoto surely isn't youngest form of him. Your argument here is invalid, because if Yamamoto got his zanpakuto when he was this old, than it would stand, but Yamamoto had his zanpakuto alot earlier.

We have no idea if he was much older at that point, considering that Shingami age weirdly he could very well be only a few centuries old at that time.

Maybe, I am forgetting but I don't remember that being stated. Sorry but until you prove that I can't take that as fact. Tho, even if you prove that still wouldn't prove Ichigo/Nimaiya being older than Yamamoto.



As I said I would agree, but if you want to use that argument that would be logical fallacy, unwarranted assumptions.

I don't remember where, but I'm 90% certain that is was stated somewhere. No, merely that they didn't serve under him. :heh:
Good, than maybe we could stop with the age arguments?

He wasn't revealed, Yhwach called him "Head of the Shinigami". I will remember you that Yhwach called Yamamoto by same name.

Ichibe doesn't outrank Yamamoto, because he is leader of the Royal Guard. He don't have authority over him. RG are just a couple of Shinigamis that protect SK. Only one who outrank Yamamoto are C46 and SK, they only have authority over Captain Commander postition.

The Structure of Soul Society show that as well. RG are just guards of the King, while KIng and C46 outranks CC. [

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]



That would be true, if it was written like this "3 out of 5 members were picked from G13".

No problem.

Ichibei does indeed outrank Yamamoto, the entire Royal Guard outranks the Gotei 13. That's why they are 'promoted' into the position.
The Royal Guard are the Soul King's defence, and Ichibei is the Soul King's last line of defence, with him gone the Soul King can be assassinated, as per rankings, that puts him above the rest, which is why he's the Leader of The Royal Guard.
Ichibei and the entire Royal Guard only answer to the Soul King himself.
The Royal Guard is above the Gotei 13, that means they outrank them. Right?
Ichibei is the actual 'Head of the Shinigami.'


Well anyway, as for Ichibei being stronger than Yamamoto.
Yhwach regained the power he had 1000 years ago ages ago.

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Bleach chapter 546.
The way Yhwach's powers work is that he keeps getting stronger and stronger, and that he can steal his enemies powers.

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It is obvious that ichibei fought a much stronger Yhwach (and lost). Going by showings and feats, Ichibei is faster, probably stronger physically, has similar sword skill, is better at Kido, and is more hax.
I'd still say that they're pretty close in ability, but that Ichibei is still stronger. Even if Ichibei really did actually serve under Yamamoto, that doesn't mean he didn't get stronger in the RG realm.

I definitely believe that Ichibei > Yamamoto in terms of power and abilities.

While Yamamoto immediately used his Shikai and Bankai against fake Bach (who he was actually fooled by), Ichibei was pushing Yhwach when he was just using the paintbrush and the Hidden Kidou, and completely dominated Yhwach once he activated Ichimonji.

Yhwach had to activate the 'Almighty' in order to defeat Ichibei. This Yhwach is also much stronger than his 1000 year self.
Ichibei has been portrayed as stronger than Yamamoto.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Chojiro was in the academy a 1000+ years before both Kyoraku and Ukitake
I don't remember Byakuya saying that.
Chojiro is indeed older than Kyoraku and Ukitake, maybe not by much however I guess.

- You don't know when Kyoraku and Ukitake joined academy.
- Sure he did. [

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]
- He could be older, but not by much, otherwise Byakuya's statament wouldn't make sense. We know for the fact that Kyoraku and Ukitake are much younger than Yamamoto, they even call him father, no way that Chojiro is even close to Yama in age.

Its been noted many times that Shinigami age differently.

I don't remember. You would need to post reference.

Unohana is older than both Kyoraku and Juushiro combined but actually looks younger.

That's because of her healing kido. Same as Tsunade.

Tenjiro doesn't look that old but he's old enough to have taught Unohana everything she knows, and he's able to refer to everyone as children (even Kyoraku and Juushiro).

Same healing kido. Tho, in this case I could agree, but only when it comes to RG members. Because they live in dimension full of abnormal reishi.

Juushiro and Kyoraku are the same age but Juushiro looks younger.

I disagree that Juushiro looks younger.

Shutara looks young but she's old enough that she created the first Shihakusho uniforms. (I forgot about her).

I explained RG's situation. Plus, Shutara's creation is uknown.

Hiyori is a few centuries old at least, and is older than Rukia (at the very least), but looks small and young like Toshiro.

Because she is small that doesn't mean she is younger. I am 18, and I know guys who are 15 and are taller than me. Her face is not that young, at all, she looks older than Rukia.

Ginrei is the 27th head of the Kuchiki family, he shouldn't be extremely old considering that there are those before him (and becasue he was only a captain 100 years ago).

You don't know when 26th head dies, to say that Ginrei shouldn't be exremly old. As I already said, he not being captain has to do with his talent. Byakuya was already stronger than him in SS arc, but Byakuya couldn't even beat Ichigo.

And many other people all seem to agree on that Ginrei is not extremely old.

You are making another Logical Fallacy, called, appeal to popularity.

I'm talking about the latter. No one besides possibly the Soul King Pre-dates Soul Societies existence.

Alright, I agree with that.

Don't feel like going through the manga dude, not right now.

Fair, but you didn't conviced me.

No, you gave me pages where it was said that other members of the RG were selected from the Gotei.

I already gave you page where it says that they are picked from the captains of Gotei 13.

Please do explain. :dunno:

First translation [

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]: "Oldest zanpakuto"

I don't need to explain anything here, it's evident.

Second translation [

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]: "oldest heat based zanpakuto"

Well here it only says it's oldest fire zanpakuto, but that pretty much put it as one of the oldest zanpakutos overall. It's not just because it's oldest fire, but because fire based zanpakutos are most wielded zanpakutos in series.
(Yamamoto, Love, Isshin, Hinamori).

Manga scans that show they served under him??

I gave you omake page that was written by Kubo when he was on 3 weeks brake before war arc.

Ichibei and the others were given a higher position, being in the Royal Guard.

To some extent yes, to some one. Yes, because it's huge honor to protect King, but on the other no, because they don't have authority over Yamamoto.

We have no idea if he was much older at that point, considering that Shingami age weirdly he could very well be only a few centuries old at that time.

That's because you made your own hypotesis about how Shinigami age. Look at Urahara/Aizen/Yoruichi/Shinji/Love/Rose/Kensei they are a few centuries old and they looks don't even come close to Yamamoto's.

Ichibei does indeed outrank Yamamoto, the entire Royal Guard outranks the Gotei 13. That's why they are 'promoted' into the position.

Captain Commander was never promoted to Royal Guard, just captain is. And CC is higher position than Captain.

As I said above. I agree to some extent, because it's honor, but they don't have authority over Captain Commander.

But only Soul King and C46 outrank Yamamoto. They are the only ones that has authority over him. Ichibe can't come down on his own will and say to Kyoraku what to do. He only can do that if SK sent him down, but than it's SK's will and SK's authority over G13.

You can see all that from the structure page I give you.

The Royal Guard are the Soul King's defence, and Ichibei is the Soul King's last line of defence, with him gone the Soul King can be assassinated, as per rankings, that puts him above the rest, which is why he's the Leader of The Royal Guard.
Ichibei and the entire Royal Guard only answer to the Soul King himself.

Okay.

The Royal Guard is above the Gotei 13, that means they outrank them. Right?

I explained you above how they outrank them, and how they doesn't outrank them.

Ichibei is the actual 'Head of the Shinigami.'

As well as Yamamoto.

Well anyway, as for Ichibei being stronger than Yamamoto.
Yhwach regained the power he had 1000 years ago ages ago.

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Bleach chapter 546.
The way Yhwach's powers work is that he keeps getting stronger and stronger, and that he can steal his enemies powers.

You must be registered for see images

It is obvious that ichibei fought a much stronger Yhwach (and lost). Going by showings and feats, Ichibei is faster, probably stronger physically, has similar sword skill, is better at Kido, and is more hax.
I'd still say that they're pretty close in ability, but that Ichibei is still stronger. Even if Ichibei really did actually serve under Yamamoto, that doesn't mean he didn't get stronger in the RG realm.

Yhwach gave a lot of powers to SS, so that they could be ressurected.

But the main problem is that Yamamoto was able to beat Yhwach, Ichibe was never able to do so. The only difference is that how much was Yhwach (vs Ichibe) stronger than Yhwach (vs Yama), if it's not by much, than yeah Yamamato is stronger than Ichibe, if by much, than likely Ichibe > Yamamoto.

I definitely believe that Ichibei > Yamamoto in terms of power and abilities.

I don't blame you. For me Ichibe is very close to Yamamoto, I wouldn't be much surprised if Ichibe is truly stronger than Yamamoto. But I still has to see more of him to believe so.

While Yamamoto immediately used his Shikai and Bankai against fake Bach (who he was actually fooled by), Ichibei was pushing Yhwach when he was just using the paintbrush and the Hidden Kidou, and completely dominated Yhwach once he activated Ichimonji.

Yamamoto said that he used his bankai only because he wanted to crush him with his full power. Yamamoto was dominating Yhwach with his shikai.

Yhwach had to activate the 'Almighty' in order to defeat Ichibei. This Yhwach is also much stronger than his 1000 year self.

But, Yhwach never stole Ichibe's bankai. Yhwach didn't activate "Almigthy" against Yamamoto, but he stole his bankai.

Ichibei has been portrayed as stronger than Yamamoto.

I disagree.

- Yamamoto was hyped to be strongest pure shinigami for most of the series.
- Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest.
- Two main villians had to left decoys to fight against Yamamoto (Aizen - Wonderweiss, Yhwach - Royd).
- Yhwach didn't go 1 vs 1 against Yamamoto while latter was at full power with bankai.
- Yhwach considered Yamamoto with not full powered bankai, with old age and with one arm still worth SWP, he didn't listed him only because latter got soft in last 1000 years. He never mentioned something like that for Ichibe.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

- You don't know when Kyoraku and Ukitake joined academy.
- Sure he did. [

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]
- He could be older, but not by much, otherwise Byakuya's statament wouldn't make sense. We know for the fact that Kyoraku and Ukitake are much younger than Yamamoto, they even call him father, no way that Chojiro is even close to Yama in age.

'
Very well, I'll concede on that one.

I don't remember. You would need to post reference.



That's because of her healing kido. Same as Tsunade.



Same healing kido. Tho, in this case I could agree, but only when it comes to RG members. Because they live in dimension full of abnormal reishi.



I disagree that Juushiro looks younger.



I explained RG's situation. Plus, Shutara's creation is uknown.



Because she is small that doesn't mean she is younger. I am 18, and I know guys who are 15 and are taller than me. Her face is not that young, at all, she looks older than Rukia.



You don't know when 26th head dies, to say that Ginrei shouldn't be exremly old. As I already said, he not being captain has to do with his talent. Byakuya was already stronger than him in SS arc, but Byakuya couldn't even beat Ichigo.



You are making another Logical Fallacy, called, appeal to popularity.



Alright, I agree with that.



Fair, but you didn't conviced me.

I'll do that later, as it'll take forever to find it and I'm not looking through a 600+ chapter manga for a single scan my friend.
I don't remember that, but your probably right.
Makes sense, The RG realm does have ridiculous Reiatsu.
Juushiro does look slightly younger than Shunsui.

Okay.

Really? Hmm, Hiyori really doesn't look that old to me, maybe its because I've always thought of her as immature and annoying?

Okay, I'll concede about Ginrei for now.

Okay.

By the way, Yachiru is actually older than Rukia but looks even younger than Toshiro.

I thought I wouldn't have managed to convince you. Your a tough one my friend.

I already gave you page where it says that they are picked from the captains of Gotei 13.



First translation [

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]: "Oldest zanpakuto"

I don't need to explain anything here, it's evident.

Second translation [

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]: "oldest heat based zanpakuto"

Well here it only says it's oldest fire zanpakuto, but that pretty much put it as one of the oldest zanpakutos overall. It's not just because it's oldest fire, but because fire based zanpakutos are most wielded zanpakutos in series.
(Yamamoto, Love, Isshin, Hinamori).

I'm still not convinced about that, besides that one scan there is no way of knowing if Ichibei was a part of the Gotei, I'm willing to concede to Nimaiya, but I do doubt it about Ichibei.

*********** though a good site for Manga, sometimes has a habit of changing the words slightly. Which is why technically Manga Panda is more accurate, but makes less sense.

I gave you omake page that was written by Kubo when he was on 3 weeks brake before war arc.

I talked about that above ^

To some extent yes, to some one. Yes, because it's huge honor to protect King, but on the other no, because they don't have authority over Yamamoto.

Its never been expanded upon, but the Royal Guard litteray don't answer to anyone but the Soul King, there is clearly a distinction with them within the laws, whereas Yamamoto answered to two different Governing Powers.

That's because you made your own hypotesis about how Shinigami age. Look at Urahara/Aizen/Yoruichi/Shinji/Love/Rose/Kensei they are a few centuries old and they looks don't even come close to Yamamoto's.

Yeah, but Shinigami do age weirdly.
But okay, Yamamoto is indeed the oldest Shingami besides Ichibei and Nimaiya, and possibly Shutara, I don't know about Tenjiro, just because he's far older than Unohana means jack shit when it comes to Old Man Yama.

Captain Commander was never promoted to Royal Guard, just captain is. And CC is higher position than Captain.

As I said above. I agree to some extent, because it's honor, but they don't have authority over Captain Commander.

But only Soul King and C46 outrank Yamamoto. They are the only ones that has authority over him. Ichibe can't come down on his own will and say to Kyoraku what to do. He only can do that if SK sent him down, but than it's SK's will and SK's authority over G13.

You can see all that from the structure page I give you.

Okay.


I explained you above how they outrank them, and how they doesn't outrank them.

They kinda cancel each other out lol.
They are both higher positions than Captains.
Yeah, and only the Soul King outranks the Royal Guard.
Yeah, than they do have authority over the CC, because technically, the Royal Guards will is the Soul Kings will. The Royal Guard literately work through the Soul Kings will and authority, that should indeed put them on a higher pedestal than the CC.
Think of it like a King and his Right Hand Man (I know, strange point to use but it works lol).

Also, you pointed this out before.

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If you look at this, notice the group called the Royal Secret Service? That's the Royal Guard, its literary right beside the Royal Family and is above Central 46.
It explains that it is a special organisation that has a considerable amount of organisational and executive power compared to other organisations.

That indeed hints of it exceeding Gotei 13 and C46s power unless I'm reading it wrong.

As well as Yamamoto.

Lol, sure, but Ichibei is the real head of Shinigami.

Yhwach gave a lot of powers to SS, so that they could be ressurected.

But the main problem is that Yamamoto was able to beat Yhwach, Ichibe was never able to do so. The only difference is that how much was Yhwach (vs Ichibe) stronger than Yhwach (vs Yama), if it's not by much, than yeah Yamamato is stronger than Ichibe, if by much, than likely Ichibe > Yamamoto.

The Yhwach Yamamoto fought didn't use the 'Almighty,' and didn't have some of his crazy current powers, its also obvious that Yhwach gets stronger every time one of his Sternritter dies.
And if I must repeat myself, Ichibei had all of the information and data on Yhwach's battle with Yamamoto 1000 years ago, but clearly looked shocked when Yhwach revealed the 'Almighty' to him.
Ichibei was able to beat a Yhwach without the 'Almighty.'

Edit: Basically, whenever a Sternritter is taken out, Yhwach gains all of their abilities and Reiatsu. Just to put it into perspective, just going on that alone, however many Sternritter's have been taken out since Yamamoto's death, Yhwach has gained each and everyone of theirs abilities and Reiastu multiplied onto his own.
Yhwach gains power from everyone around, and not just the Sternritter and Quincy as well.
I hope this puts it into perspective for you.

Also, Royd was close to the Yhwach from 1000 years ago power and strength.

I don't blame you. For me Ichibe is very close to Yamamoto, I wouldn't be much surprised if Ichibe is truly stronger than Yamamoto. But I still has to see more of him to believe so.



Yamamoto said that he used his bankai only because he wanted to crush him with his full power. Yamamoto was dominating Yhwach with his shikai.



But, Yhwach never stole Ichibe's bankai. Yhwach didn't activate "Almigthy" against Yamamoto, but he stole his bankai.



I disagree.

- Yamamoto was hyped to be strongest pure shinigami for most of the series.
- Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest.
- Two main villians had to left decoys to fight against Yamamoto (Aizen - Wonderweiss, Yhwach - Royd).
- Yhwach didn't go 1 vs 1 against Yamamoto while latter was at full power with bankai.
- Yhwach considered Yamamoto with not full powered bankai, with old age and with one arm still worth SWP, he didn't listed him only because latter got soft in last 1000 years. He never mentioned something like that for Ichibe.

Ichibei in base is more impressive than Base and Shikai Yamamoto.

You mean fake Yhwach.

Common misconception, Yhwach did try to steal Ichibei's Bankai but was unable to do so.
Yhwach considered Yamamoto unworthy of fighting and mocked him many times, its quite clear that Yhwach didn't consider Yama a threat. Which is why he shat on him and bisected him.


Yamamoto was hyped as the strongest pure Shinigami in the last 1000 years.
Debatable, the statements were only referring to the Soul Soceity, and the Soul Kings realm is in an entirely different dimension.
I explained about Yhwach.
Already explained about that.
And why does it matter that he never mentioned Ichibei as being a possible SWP? I doubt he and many others even expected the Royal Guard to come down and fight.


Anyway, Royal Guard has been stated to be a superior fighting force to the Gotei 13, and Ichibei is the Leader of the Royal Guard, a much higher and honoured position than the Gotei 13s Captain-Commander.
That hype there says Ichibei>>>>>Yamamoto.
Yhwach considered Ichibei an opponent worth facing himself, even when taking into consideration the other Royal Guard. In fact, neither Ichibei, Nimaiya and Tenjiro even took Yhwach seriously, even after he killed Yamamoto.

Also, Yamamoto wasn't considered as an SWP because he got soft and he became predictable and easily counter-able, hence why he was not considered a threat.

Edit: Also, I actually have something I remembered that I should mention about Oestu's age. Nimaiya himself said no Shinigami since the beginning of the Soul Society has ever unlocked their Zan power without his Asauchi. That certainly implies ridiculous age.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I'll do that later, as it'll take forever to find it and I'm not looking through a 600+ chapter manga for a single scan my friend.

Okay.

Juushiro does look slightly younger than Shunsui.

Even if I agree with that, but I am not sure do I, that wouldn't change. In my class, there exist people that looks older and younger than me, still we all are same age.

Really? Hmm, Hiyori really doesn't look that old to me, maybe its because I've always thought of her as immature and annoying?

Maybe.

Okay.

By the way, Yachiru is actually older than Rukia but looks even younger than Toshiro.

She is the mystery. From what we know she could be Zaraki's zanpakuto.

I'm still not convinced about that, besides that one scan there is no way of knowing if Ichibei was a part of the Gotei, I'm willing to concede to Nimaiya, but I do doubt it about Ichibei.

I gave you page. You are free to believe otherwise, tho.

*********** though a good site for Manga, sometimes has a habit of changing the words slightly. Which is why technically Manga Panda is more accurate, but makes less sense.

Mangapanda say same.

Its never been expanded upon, but the Royal Guard litteray don't answer to anyone but the Soul King, there is clearly a distinction with them within the laws, whereas Yamamoto answered to two different Governing Powers.

Well. C46 and SK are same. C46 exist only because SK lives in other dimension, C46 replace SK's absence.

Yeah, and only the Soul King outranks the Royal Guard.

No, because Soul King is not position, it's title. You can't be promoted to Soul King.

Yeah, than they do have authority over the CC, because technically, the Royal Guards will is the Soul Kings will. The Royal Guard literately work through the Soul Kings will and authority, that should indeed put them on a higher pedestal than the CC.
Think of it like a King and his Right Hand Man (I know, strange point to use but it works lol).

I agreed on that, but that don't give them authority over Yamamoto/Kyoraku.

Also, you pointed this out before.

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If you look at this, notice the group called the Royal Secret Service? That's the Royal Guard, its literary right beside the Royal Family and is above Central 46.
It explains that it is a special organisation that has a considerable amount of organisational and executive power compared to other organisations.

That indeed hints of it exceeding Gotei 13 and C46s power unless I'm reading it wrong.

That page exactly prove that RG aren't above C46 or G13 in authority. Because there don't exist direct line between RG and G13/C46.

The Yhwach Yamamoto fought didn't use the 'Almighty,' and didn't have some of his crazy current powers, its also obvious that Yhwach gets stronger every time one of his Sternritter dies.
And if I must repeat myself, Ichibei had all of the information and data on Yhwach's battle with Yamamoto 1000 years ago, but clearly looked shocked when Yhwach revealed the 'Almighty' to him.
Ichibei was able to beat a Yhwach without the 'Almighty.'

Even if I agree - but again I am not sure do I - Yamamoto also beat Yhwach without "Almighty". Yamamoto did that without full power of his bankai.

Edit: Basically, whenever a Sternritter is taken out, Yhwach gains all of their abilities and Reiatsu. Just to put it into perspective, just going on that alone, however many Sternritter's have been taken out since Yamamoto's death, Yhwach has gained each and everyone of theirs abilities and Reiastu multiplied onto his own.
Yhwach gains power from everyone around, and not just the Sternritter and Quincy as well.
I hope this puts it into perspective for you.

He gave that power to ressurect Shutzstaffel.

Also, Royd was close to the Yhwach from 1000 years ago power and strength.

Yes. Yamamoto easily overpowered him with shikai, one arm, and while being soft.

Ichibei in base is more impressive than Base and Shikai Yamamoto.

I disagree. Plus, you never saw Base Ichibe, he always used his partial Shikai.

Common misconception, Yhwach did try to steal Ichibei's Bankai but was unable to do so.

Nope, never happened.

Yhwach considered Yamamoto unworthy of fighting and mocked him many times, its quite clear that Yhwach didn't consider Yama a threat. Which is why he shat on him and bisected him.

Unworthy? Than he wouldn't leave decoy to exhaus Yamamoto.

Yamamoto was hyped as the strongest pure Shinigami in the last 1000 years.

That's taking into consideration his status as Captain Commander. Considering G13 exist only for 1000 years.

Debatable, the statements were only referring to the Soul Soceity, and the Soul Kings realm is in an entirely different dimension.

Aizen said that Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest zanpakuto. Aizen was aware of Royal Guards. Soul King doesn't has zanpakuto.

I explained about Yhwach.
Already explained about that.

You actually didn't.

And why does it matter that he never mentioned Ichibei as being a possible SWP? I doubt he and many others even expected the Royal Guard to come down and fight.

He expected. He said to Hashwalth after he killed Yamamoto that they should regrut before RG comes down. Plus it doesn't matter will they come down or not, when he would go to RR either way.

Anyway, Royal Guard has been stated to be a superior fighting force to the Gotei 13, and Ichibei is the Leader of the Royal Guard, a much higher and honoured position than the Gotei 13s Captain-Commander.
That hype there says Ichibei>>>>>Yamamoto.

It was said after Yamamoto's death.

Yhwach considered Ichibei an opponent worth facing himself, even when taking into consideration the other Royal Guard.

That speak for itself. Yhwach: "I can take alone Ichibe"..... Yhwach: "Oh, no, how will I fight Yamamoto, oh I know, I will let Royd fight him, than when he got tired, I will jump in and defeat him".

In fact, neither Ichibei, Nimaiya and Tenjiro even took Yhwach seriously, even after he killed Yamamoto

I am not doubting that 5 Royal Guards together are stronger than Yamamoto, by quite a margin, so I don't see why are you using this, when there were 5 of them.

Also, Yamamoto wasn't considered as an SWP because he got soft and he became predictable and easily counter-able, hence why he was not considered a threat.

This don't help you at all.

At least that prove that Yamamoto was something...

Edit: Also, I actually have something I remembered that I should mention about Oestu's age. Nimaiya himself said no Shinigami since the beginning of the Soul Society has ever unlocked their Zan power without his Asauchi. That certainly implies ridiculous age.

Okay, Yamamoto still has oldest or one of the oldest zanpakutos.

 

[-Akuma-]

I dont see how Aizen can defeat him. Aizen admitted inferiority to him and hell without Wonderweiss Aizen would have died back in FKT arc.

The moment Yamamoto says "Bankai" its all over. Even Unohoha gave 0 ****s for Aizen but she was worried that Yammoto's Bankai would destroy Soul Society.

Maybe if Aizen still had his Zanpacto in his Hogyoku Mode it might be different.

And Aizens Hogyoku form was not impressive...all he did was bully fodders and got neg diffed by Ichigo

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3 low top tiers are fodders now..You're so ****ing dumb Aizen beats him/

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Okay.



Even if I agree with that, but I am not sure do I, that wouldn't change. In my class, there exist people that looks older and younger than me, still we all are same age.



Maybe.

Okay.



She is the mystery. From what we know she could be Zaraki's zanpakuto.



I gave you page. You are free to believe otherwise, tho.



Mangapanda say same.



Well. C46 and SK are same. C46 exist only because SK lives in other dimension, C46 replace SK's absence.



No, because Soul King is not position, it's title. You can't be promoted to Soul King.

Cool.

Indeed.

Okay.

I doubt it, Yachiru has her own Zanpakuto that is completely different to Zaraki's, not only that, but if she were his Zanpakuto I doubt anyone would be able to see her, even if it were possible, there's still the fact that she has been outside of his inner world for too long, there is a limit after all.

Yes, I am free to believe otherwise,.

Indeed, but they later changed it too an entirely different quote later on.

They aren't, Soul King is above the C46, so there is a difference between powers.

Yes, its not a position.

I agreed on that, but that don't give them authority over Yamamoto/Kyoraku.



That page exactly prove that RG aren't above C46 or G13 in authority. Because there don't exist direct line between RG and G13/C46.

Okay, but if its from the Soul King than they do have authority (like a king and his Right Hand Man).

That merely proves that the Royal Guard are not within the law itself, there is a direct line with them and the Royal Family however. It also said that they have considerable executive power compared to the other organisations.

Even if I agree - but again I am not sure do I - Yamamoto also beat Yhwach without "Almighty". Yamamoto did that without full power of his bankai.



He gave that power to ressurect Shutzstaffel.



Yes. Yamamoto easily overpowered him with shikai, one arm, and while being soft.

Yamamoto beat a much weaker base Yhwach without 'Almighty.'
But your right on that account.

Hmm? I don't know what your talking about, but Yhwach easily regains his power and continues to get stronger and stronger because of those around him. In the beginning of the arc and he had regained his powers from 1000 years ago, Haschwalth was actually close to his level. If not slightly stronger. Yhwach is now easily stronger than all of his subordinates.

Nope, Royd easily went up against Shikai Yamamoto, he was no joke, he tanked one of Yamamoto's Shikai attacks with a single hand and took no damage in base.
Yamamoto actually did need his Bankai against Royd; even then, Royd still managed to do pretty well against Bankai Yamamoto and was able to dodge some of Yamamoto's ultimate attacks with ease. This was a base Royd too (though he was only able to survive the flames because of Blut).
It was actually stated that Yamamoto technically got stronger in old age because his Bankai got stronger, so he may have one arm but compared to himself 1000 years ago he's actually stronger.
And going by the fact that Royd was comparable to Yhwach 1000 years ago, I think that says something about what the battle would've been like, it must've been spectacular and pretty damn close.

I disagree. Plus, you never saw Base Ichibe, he always used his partial Shikai.



Nope, never happened.



Unworthy? Than he wouldn't leave decoy to exhaus Yamamoto.



That's taking into consideration his status as Captain Commander. Considering G13 exist only for 1000 years.

Aizen said that Yamamoto's zanpakuto is strongest zanpakuto. Aizen was aware of Royal Guards. Soul King doesn't has zanpakuto.

Ichibei didn't go Shikai until he called out his Zanpakuto's name, he was indeed in base, and didn't use any of his actual Shikai abilities.

Sorry, your right, Yhwach tried to steal ichibei's Shikai and was unable to.

Yhwach mocked Yamamoto and didn't consider him a threat. Yhwach wasn't afraid of Yamamoto in the least.


Indeed, but that is what his statements consists of, a 1000 years. Its pretty clear.

You actually didn't.



He expected. He said to Hashwalth after he killed Yamamoto that they should regrut before RG comes down. Plus it doesn't matter will they come down or not, when he would go to RR either way.



It was said after Yamamoto's death.

I did, by explaining that Yhwach didn't consider Yamamoto a threat.

Your right, I remember that now.


It indeed still counts however.

That speak for itself. Yhwach: "I can take alone Ichibe"..... Yhwach: "Oh, no, how will I fight Yamamoto, oh I know, I will let Royd fight him, than when he got tired, I will jump in and defeat him".



I am not doubting that 5 Royal Guards together are stronger than Yamamoto, by quite a margin, so I don't see why are you using this, when there were 5 of them.



This don't help you at all.

At least that prove that Yamamoto was something...



Okay, Yamamoto still has oldest or one of the oldest zanpakutos.

It doesn't, Yhwach didn't consider Yamamoto a threat or worthy of fighting, which is why he fought him dishonourably and bisected him in one move after having one of his subordinates weaken him. Not to mention Yhwach would've been stronger than Royd who did well against Yamamoto in Shikai and even when the old man went Bankai (considering that he had Vollstanding among other abilities like Lezt Still), though Royd also had Vollstanding but didn't use it.

NVM, won't bother.

I was just saying why, it wasn't meant to help me, but there's a common misconception that the only reason why he wasn't considered an SWP was because he grew soft.


Indeed.
Beginning of Soul Society is 1 million years ago, that means Oestu and Ichibei are 1 million years old or older. That means the history of Shinuchi and the 'Balancers' is even older than suspected. It is also probable that they were the first two Royal Guard members and have always been a part of the organisation and weren't part of Gotei, but that's merely speculation.
Though considering it was the Soul King himself who bestowed onto Ichibei the honour of giving everything a name, that certainly implies that he was a member of the RG for a very long time. Also explains about why the moment he got Shinuchi he didn't name it Bankai straight away (if my thoughts [and wiki] before is correct that he had Shinuchi before everyone else).