Zabuza versus Haku

[Zexion~]

Lol wait...do people not realize that Dogs were literally on top of Zabuza holding him in place? Forget what happened in the Edo arc but pretty sure it was a mirror that got him there then.

Why are there elaborate scalings being done here? Does this mean Kakuzu can move faster than Gai can deliver two Morning Peacock punches? Oh goodie <3

 

[Mugen Onsa]

Kakuzu looks like a ragdolled-monkey with no swag. Enma is a monkey that has swag. Learn the difference, you mongrel.

 

[EliteKakashi]

That Hiruzen can use all of Konoha's jutsus, him being on par with Hashirama before Hashirama got feats. I remember you claiming that Kakashi said that no jutsu works twice as a legit argument as well.

That's hype that's never been disproven, and is further backed up by the hype of Orochimaru claiming that Hiruzen was considered a god. As I've said, I'm perfectly fine if people want to ignore hype. Makes me no difference, and I see why one would. However, hype that's never been disproven and is extremely recent is not comparable to hype that was disproven like a page after it was stated or w/e.

Why wouldn't I think Hiruzen was on par with Hashirama before Hashirama got feats? Considering the only real hype we got before Hashirama received his feats was that Kabuto said he was extremely powerful. Considering at the time we were comparing that to the fact that Hiruzen was considered a god, and even at his old age and way past his prime, was said to be the most powerful of the 5 kage, I dunno why thinking they were comparable is so wrong.

Especially when you consider the only feats Hashirama showed(basic mokuton, bringer of darkness) were hard countered by Hiruzen(Enma, sense of smell).

And yes, no jutsu works on Kakashi once he has knowledge of how it works, this of course barring him being up against someone that completely outclasses him/that he couldn't possibly defense, which I noted in that thread as well. This has been backed up numerous times in the manga, and in that thread, I showed numerous examples. That's one of Kakashi's biggest claims to fame, his battle intellect. Kakashi went against mist. He developed a counter for mist. Kakashi saw Deidara's flight/bombs, Kakashi countered Deidara's flight/bombs. Kakashi saw domu. He countered domu. Kakashi saw shinra tensei, he countered shinra tensei. Kakashi was given knowledge of all 6 paths abilities. Kakashi developed plans to defeat all 6. Kakashi went up against the god of the narutoverse herself. Kakashi developed the plan that defeated her.

So what's the issue here?

 

[EliteKakashi]

Why are there elaborate scalings being done here? Does this mean Kakuzu can move faster than Gai can deliver two Morning Peacock punches? Oh goodie <3

If Kakuzu had ever reacted to a full speed raikiri(he never reacted to raikiri at all for that manner)...sure.

Seeing as he's never done that, nope.

 

[Zexion~]

If Kakuzu had ever reacted to a full speed raikiri(he never reacted to raikiri at all for that manner)...sure.

Seeing as he's never done that, nope.

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How could you not remember the most bad-ass moment in the manga U_U

And he even was able to use Domu at the time he was pierced right through, if it wasn't raiton it would have been blocked.

Edit-Kakashi was pawned by Fire + Wind Combo twice U_U JS

 

[EliteKakashi]

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And he even was able to use Domu at the time he was pierced right through, if it wasn't raiton it would have been blocked.

Kakashi activating raikiri and beginning to take a step towards Hidan does not = reacting to raikiri, c'mon Zex, especially when it was shown on panel that Kakashi wasn't moving at full speed towards Hidan either(he had no reason to, Hidan was trapped), he was just beginning to run.

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There's no change in his skin or anything. Kakuzu even notes himself that he never noticed Kakashi, so no, there was no reaction to it.

 

[Izou Xaxa]

Zabuza wins

 

[Zexion~]

Kakashi activating raikiri and beginning to take a step towards Hidan does not = reacting to raikiri, c'mon Zex, especially when it was shown on panel that Kakashi wasn't moving at full speed towards Hidan either(he had no reason to, Hidan was trapped), he was just beginning to run.

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There's no change in his skin or anything. Kakuzu even notes himself that he never noticed Kakashi, so no, there was no reaction to it.

Lol I was joking about the first part, I know it isn't really that great of a speed feat XD


As for the second however you can clearly see him moving in that scan you posted Lol actually I see you conveniently cropped it out

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Compare top Kakuzu to bottom Kakuzu he clearly moved which you can't do with Domu... Don't think that's the original translation however that just adds to the theory that once invoked Domu blocks every physical attack automatically. As if Domu didn't even react there was no need for the spheal about "Oh not your lucky day because earth<lightning it wouldn't have had to even been brought up.

It also could just mean he didn't sense him on the battle-field at all Lol either way blame Kishi for the drawing mistake.
Although you've just reminded me of a pretty good idea about something hehehe....

 

[EliteKakashi]

Lol I was joking about the first part, I know it isn't really that great of a speed feat XD


As for the second however you can clearly see him moving in that scan you posted Lol actually I see you conveniently cropped it out

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Compare top Kakuzu to bottom Kakuzu he clearly moved which you can't do with Domu... Don't think that's the original translation however that just adds to the theory that once invoked Domu blocks every physical attack automatically. As if Domu didn't even react there was no need for the spheal about "Oh not your lucky day because earth<lightning it wouldn't have had to even been brought up.

It also could just mean he didn't sense him on the battle-field at all Lol either way blame Kishi for the drawing mistake.
Although you've just reminded me of a pretty good idea about something hehehe....

I didn't conveniently crop it out. I simply thought it wasn't relevant. Kakuzu can choose what parts of his body harden, can't he(thus how he's able to punch with it)? It seems to me the explanation is he hardened the parts of his body necessary to block Chouji's attack, but his lower body/waist/etc weren't effected by his domu and thus him being able to still rise. Not sensing Kakashi would mean he has no reason to activate domu to defend against him, and we also see no handsigns(and were shown the panel right before Kakuzu gets hit, his hands are at his side, and we're show the panel after he's hit that the hands are indeed still at his side).

Kakashi spoke of lightning > earth because of domu still being active is what I took from the panels, or maybe he was just saying that so Kishi could make it a cool moment for him, I have no idea, but I think the first statement is correct.

 

[Icelerate]

That's hype that's never been disproven, and is further backed up by the hype of Orochimaru claiming that Hiruzen was considered a god. As I've said, I'm perfectly fine if people want to ignore hype. Makes me no difference, and I see why one would. However, hype that's never been disproven and is extremely recent is not comparable to hype that was disproven like a page after it was stated or w/e.

gods don't become less godlike overtime as they are eternal, hype disproven. Hiruzen's hype is very recent? Oh dear.

Why wouldn't I think Hiruzen was on par with Hashirama before Hashirama got feats? Considering the only real hype we got before Hashirama received his feats was that Kabuto said he was extremely powerful. Considering at the time we were comparing that to the fact that Hiruzen was considered a god, and even at his old age and way past his prime, was said to be the most powerful of the 5 kage, I dunno why thinking they were comparable is so wrong.

Well edo Madara's power level was already over the top to begin with. I mean saying Sasori>Deidara just because of hype is one thing as by feats they are relatively on par with each other but when the feats gap is so big, relying on hype is a bit desperate. BTW Haku bested Sai, the same guy who bested Deidara, the same guy Kakashi needed Naruto's help and Kamui. There goes A>B>C logic for you.

Especially when you consider the only feats Hashirama showed(basic mokuton, bringer of darkness) were hard countered by Hiruzen(Enma, sense of smell).

Flower tree world, large number of mokuton bunshin, healing abilities and massive stamina were still in Hashirama's favour.

And yes, no jutsu works on Kakashi once he has knowledge of how it works, this of course barring him being up against someone that completely outclasses him/that he couldn't possibly defense, which I noted in that thread as well. This has been backed up numerous times in the manga, and in that thread, I showed numerous examples. That's one of Kakashi's biggest claims to fame, his battle intellect. Kakashi went against mist. He developed a counter for mist. Kakashi saw Deidara's flight/bombs, Kakashi countered Deidara's flight/bombs. Kakashi saw domu. He countered domu. Kakashi saw shinra tensei, he countered shinra tensei. Kakashi was given knowledge of all 6 paths abilities. Kakashi developed plans to defeat all 6. Kakashi went up against the god of the narutoverse herself. Kakashi developed the plan that defeated her.

So what's the issue here?

I concede.

 

[EliteKakashi]

gods don't become less godlike overtime as they are eternal, hype disproven. Hiruzen's hype is very recent? Oh dear.

Are you seriously using this argument? Them being called a god is in respect to their power, not their lifespan. Let's not start playing stupid.

Yes. The 4th Databook is as recent as it gets, and it straight up states Hiruzen can use all Konoha jutsu, including clan jutsu. If that's not recent, I dunno what is.

Well edo Madara's power level was already over the top to begin with. I mean saying Sasori>Deidara just because of hype is one thing as by feats they are relatively on par with each other but when the feats gap is so big, relying on hype is a bit desperate. BTW Haku bested Sai, the same guy who bested Deidara, the same guy Kakashi needed Naruto's help and Kamui. There goes A>B>C logic for you.

You just made my argument for me, so I'm not really sure what you're even arguing here.

Flower tree world, large number of mokuton bunshin, healing abilities and massive stamina were still in Hashirama's favour.

I didn't claim Hiruzen > Hashirama or even = Hashirama after Edo Madara was shown using his abilities or hyping up his healing, so that's doesn't really apply here.

 

[Zexion~]

I didn't conveniently crop it out. I simply thought it wasn't relevant. Kakuzu can choose what parts of his body harden, can't he(thus how he's able to punch with it)? It seems to me the explanation is he hardened the parts of his body necessary to block Chouji's attack, but his lower body/waist/etc weren't effected by his domu and thus him being able to still rise. Not sensing Kakashi would mean he has no reason to activate domu to defend against him, and we also see no handsigns(and were shown the panel right before Kakuzu gets hit, his hands are at his side, and we're show the panel after he's hit that the hands are indeed still at his side).

Kakashi spoke of lightning > earth because of domu still being active is what I took from the panels, or maybe he was just saying that so Kishi could make it a cool moment for him, I have no idea, but I think the first statement is correct.

He didn't use a handsign multiple times he used Domu, he only has to use it once and he can mentally activate or deactivate the jutsu.

Also his back clearly straightened out as wel... but it doesn't really matter anyways Lol