Zabuza versus Haku

Ghost in the Shell

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Intel: Manga
Starting Distance: 35 meters
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Mindset: IC, to kill

A good argument can be made for Haku IMO.

Actually, I think Haku wins more often than not. I'd like to see someone put up an argument for Zabuza. By the way there is a water source in the location; there is a lake present.
 
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Zexion~

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Without a water source Zabuza isn't that strong....

So Haku wins this, if there is a water source though i'd give it to Zabuza.
 

Ambivalence

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Zabuza should win this. Since there is a water source nearby [ ], Zabuza would be able to use all his techniques without a problem. Haku also canonically lost to base Sasuke in taijutsu [ ], so getting close to Zabuza would be suicide. Even if he traps him in Demonic Ice Mirrors, Zabuza can still use his water techniques/clones and Hidden Mist jutsu to evade Haku's strikes, provided he's close enough to it.

If Haku gets Water Prison'd, it's game over.
 

Killua Zoldyck

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Haku is still weaker then Zabuza, his speed is =< Wave Arc Sasuke. Zabuza was able to contend with Kakashis speed for a bit, Mist is going up before Hakus Ice Mirror technique, from there Zabuza wins.
 

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Ahh yes then Zabuza takes this. Haku is basically done when he puts up Crystal Ice Mirrors as Giant Water Cyclone wrecks through that while taking down Haku as well. Not to mention he can trap himself inside water prison while he makes the hand-signs (Can't remember if that one took alot or if it was just Water Dragon) to defend against the needles.

Unless someone can make an argument for his ice crystals I don't see him winning at all.
 

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Zabuza should win this. Since there is a water source nearby [ ], Zabuza would be able to use all his techniques without a problem. Haku also canonically lost to base Sasuke in taijutsu [ ], so getting close to Zabuza would be suicide. Even if he traps him in Demonic Ice Mirrors, Zabuza can still use his water techniques/clones and Hidden Mist jutsu to evade Haku's strikes, provided he's close enough to it.
Both of Zabuza's strongest water techniques require a high amount of hand seals. Haku can either outright dodge them by forming an ice mirror in another location [ ][ ] or forcing Zabuza to by around him. Haku was just aiming at Sasuke's feet in that scan, just so you know. He can do this by manipulating the water in the surrounding area or even the water molecules in the air. Haku takes a dump on Zabuza in terms of jutsu execution speed, so he'll be able to do this feasibly. Hidden Mist jutsu isn't much of a problem since Haku has experience in silent killing and has accute senses, hearing, and reflexes that allowed him to notice Kakashi charging at Zabuza with Raikiri [ ][ ]. Not to mention that he can the air around him as well to act as a barrier.

If Haku gets Water Prison'd, it's game over.
Haku can just freeze the water around Zabuza's hand or form senbon around him to break his control over it.
 
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Zexion~

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Both of Zabuza's strongest water techniques require a high amount of hand seals. Haku can either outright dodge them by forming an ice mirror in another location [ ][ ] or forcing Zabuza to around him. Haku was just aiming at Sasuke's feet in that scan, just so you know. He can do this by manipulating the water in the surrounding area or even the water molecules in the air. Haku takes a dump on Zabuza in terms of jutsu execution speed, so he'll be able to do this feasibly. Hidden Mist jutsu isn't much of a problem since Haku has experience in silent killing and has accute senses, hearing, and reflexes that allowed him to notice Kakashi charging at Zabuza with Raikiri [ ][ ]. Not to mention that he can the air around him as well to act as a barrier.



Haku can just freeze the water around Zabuza's hand or form senbon around him to break his control over it.
I mean not really hardcore into this debate but.

-He can form another Ice Mirror yeah but that doesn't do anything in stopping Zabuza.

-Zabuza would be inside the water dome. Protecting himself from senbon barage. while casting jutsu

Your forming senbon scan doesn't work... but do you mean his ice needles? Zabuza can easily avoid those :|

Although I could see how Zabuza's lack of speed in ..... anything could lead to his downfall
 

Ambivalence

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Both of Zabuza's strongest water techniques require a high amount of hand seals. Haku can either outright dodge them by forming an ice mirror in another location [ ][ ] or forcing Zabuza to by around him.
Zabuza could just do this [ ], instead of spewing it out he'll use the water in the lake, and block every senbon thrown at him.

Haku was just aiming at Sasuke's feet in that scan, just so you know. He can do this by manipulating the water in the surrounding area or even the water molecules in the air.
He aimed at his feet, but I still don't see Zabuza being hit with an attack like that, after it being dodged by base Sasuke. Also, you're assuming Haku will somehow keep up with Zabuza in close range, and also that Zabuza won't fake him out with Water Clones.

Haku takes a dump on Zabuza in terms of jutsu execution speed, so he'll be able to do this feasibly.
This part is true, though only concerning his own one-handed signs jutsu.

Hidden Mist jutsu isn't much of a problem since Haku has experience in silent killing and has accute senses, hearing, and reflexes that allowed him to notice Kakashi charging at Zabuza with Raikiri
Haku has never been shown to fare against Hidden Mist, though, and a loud chirping ball of light and chakra being noticed isn't what I'd call impressive. Regardless, I admit that that his assassination experience will be viable, though Kakashi had to resort to his Ninja Hounds' smell to catch Zabuza.

[ ][ ]. Not to mention that he can the air around him as well to act as a barrier.
Is that even durable enough withstand multiple Kubikiribōcho hits? It did tank some explosive tags [ ], albeit about to break at the end, so I'm not really sure here.

Haku can just freeze the water around Zabuza's hand or form senbon around him to break his control over it.
Haku has never frozen water for offensive purposes except when making his mirrors, but I can see him doing it, so I agree on this point.
 
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Zabuza could just do this [ ], instead of spewing it out he'll use the water in the lake, and block every senbon thrown at him.
That still prevents him from forming his water jutsu.

He aimed at his feet, but I still don't see Zabuza being hit with an attack like that, after it being dodged by base Sasuke. Also, you're assuming Haku will somehow keep up with Zabuza in close range, and also that Zabuza won't fake him out with Water Clones.
The point of the senbon was to stop Zabuza from forming his jutsu, not to hit him. I think Zabuza can dodge even though his reactions aren't anything special.

The utility of Haku's Ice Mirrors allow him to outspeed Zabuza and his clones and catch him off guard. If Zabuza doesn't use Hidden Mist to occult himself I don't know how he'll be able to react to strikes from multiple directions, not to mention that he can freeze the blood and water inside of Zabuza's body with just a touch.

Haku has never been shown to fare against Hidden Mist, though, and a loud chirping ball of light and chakra being noticed isn't what I'd call impressive. Regardless, I admit that that his assassination experience will be viable, though Kakashi had to resort to his Ninja Hounds' smell to catch Zabuza.
Haku was Zabuza's student and the latter's main method of assasination was Hidden Mist-silent killing. He's already taught Haku the art of silent killing. This, and given his mobility while using the Ice Mirrors, should allow him to maneuver inside the mist just fine. Neither Sakura, Tezuna, or Naruto heard Raikiri despite being in his general vincinity.

Is that even durable enough withstand multiple Kubikiribōcho hits? It did tank some explosive tags [ ], albeit about to break at the end, so I'm not really sure here.
Haku can easily raise the density and thickness of the ice in proportion to Zabuza's sword.

Both of those techniques require him to make hand seals, and the only one who's ever moved successfully to do anything in the Water Prison was Kisame, and that was because he used it as defense. Haku has also never frozen water for offensive purposes except when making his mirrors.
This doesn't mean that Haku can't do so. Him freezing water = he can freeze more water, and he's able to do so just by gathering the water molecules in the air which is harder than manipulating water in liquid form. He can do that without hand seals. Water Prison traps the opponent, it doesn't immobilize them, so he can form seals inside of the water anyway.

I think Haku wins with high difficulty. Zabuza can't react to his attacks while he's using the Ice Crystal Mirrors, which can counter water clones just fine due to the speed with which he can transport himself from mirror to mirror and throw senbon simultaneously. He counter Zabuza's sillent killing and Hidden Mist through his own reflexes, experience, perception, Ice domes, and Ice mirrors. Zabuza's water jutsu aren't much of a problem. He has the advantage in CQC but I believe that Haku's intangibles give him the win at the end of the day.
 

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I think Haku wins with high difficulty. Zabuza can't react to his attacks while he's using the Ice Crystal Mirrors, which can counter water clones just fine due to the speed with which he can transport himself from mirror to mirror and throw senbon simultaneously. He counter Zabuza's sillent killing and Hidden Mist through his own reflexes, experience, perception, Ice domes, and Ice mirrors. Zabuza's water jutsu aren't much of a problem. He has the advantage in CQC but I believe that Haku's intangibles give him the win at the end of the day.
Yeah, I think I'll agree with you, especially with the bold.. Honestly, I entered the argument completely forgetting Haku has Edo War Arc feats and not just his early Part 1's, which play a big role in this fight, so I concede that Haku does pull off a win against Zabuza.
 

EliteKakashi

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Zabuza is several tiers above Haku overall. Zabuza would destroy any ice mirrors with no difficulty, he has bunshin abilities that are on par with Kakashi, Haku's taijutsu is noted to be absolutely bottom tier(1), so close combat is going to go awfully for Haku, and he'll simply be overwhelmed, very quickly.

Haku was strong for his age, but only around a low-chuunin in terms of tier. Zabuza was mid, if not high end on the jounin tier. Common sense alone tells you who wins this fight, and how easily it's won.

No one is going to argue(at least I certainly hope not) that Haku stands a chance in hell at beating early part 1 Kakashi. The same logic should apply to Zabuza. I know A>B>C doesn't work in Naruto very much, but when the skill gap is this large, it does.
 

Magatsu Izanagi

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Haku wins.

Water source or not, Haku shouldn't have any trouble evading Zabuza's Suiton techs given his speed and reflexes (which both inherently outclass Zabuza's). This is supported with feats like hopping in midway through Kakashi's Raikiri attack , which should be enough to react to/avoid any kind of Suiton tech Zabuza pumps out.

CQC is Zabuza's only real advantage, and with a feat like , there's no reason he can't do the same against any of Zabuza's CQC-centric attacks, avoiding any detremental damage from his sword in the process.

Putting up the Mist shouldn't be an issue either, as Haku's senses, combined with superior speed/reflexes, should counteract any kind of advantage Zabuza would gain by putting the Mist up in the first place.

Haku should be able to put up the Crystal Ice Mirrors (takes a few seconds at most) and take the win there. Zabuza won't be able to destroy the mirrors, or at least not fast enough (Giant Cyclone requires lots of seals) before Haku starts cranking out attacks with Senbon at light-speed.
 
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Mugen Onsa

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Haku freezes that clown and makes him die of hypothermia. EliteKakashi Haku being low chuunin is the best joke I've heard in a while. Pretty sure even Zabuza said that Haku is more dangerous than he is in many ways. That doesn't amount to him being low chuunin and several tiers below Zabuza. Or maybe you forgot what he did in the war?
 

EliteKakashi

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Haku wins.

Water source or not, Haku shouldn't have any trouble evading Zabuza's Suiton techs given his speed and reflexes (which both inherently outclass Zabuza's). This is supported with feats like hopping in midway through Kakashi's Raikiri attack , which should be enough to react to/avoid any kind of Suiton tech Zabuza pumps out.
Kakashi was taking his time with this raikiri. His speed in using raikiri has been noted many times, even moving so quickly that someone as experienced Kakuzu was unable to hear or notice him. The manga even showed Kakashi moving with the raikiri, despite his ability to move with it at speeds so great that include matching Gai's punching in Asa Kujaku.

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And I'll just copy and paste my own post from the past explaining the raikiri/asa kujaku comparison:

EliteKakashi said:
I think you're mistaking at what I'm comparing here.

The comparison is Kakashi's foot speed in comparison to Gai's Asa Kujaku. I'm not comparing Kakashi's foot speed to Gai's foot speed in 6 Gates.

As your scans noted, Kakashi and Gai start their assaults(Gai's Asa Kujaku, Kakashi's Raiden) when they're back to back, started from the same point.

Gai stays stationary and uses Asa Kujaku on the acidic wave approaching him.

Kakashi launches forward to cut down the bijuu chakra arms with raiden.

He covers this distance:

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In the same amount of time that Gai creates barely any more "peacocks" from Asa Kujaku(top scan is him starting the technique, bottom scan is how many more he's shown to have created in the time that Kakashi closed the distance from Gai to cutting through those bijuu arms):

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What this shows is Kakashi can move roughly as fast with Raiden/raikiri as Gai can punch with Asa Kujaku. This is an impressive speed feat because Asa Kujaku is Gai simply moving his fists so quickly he can produce flames:

3rd Databook Asa Kujaku said:
With speed so high that the friction produces flames
So no, it's not Kakashi keeping up with 6th Gate Gai. It's Kakashi keeping up with the speed of Asa Kujaku, the "technique" itself.
So, while I'm not ignoring it as a speed feat, it's hardly as impressive as someone may want to make it out to be, seeing as if Kakashi was actually going full speed with it and didn't take his time, Zabuza would have been dead before Haku even thought about moving.

In terms of it being enough to evade Zabuza's suiton? Possibly so. I don't have much issue with that statement, although Zabuza himself(granted the same speed as Haku in the databook, 4, and while I understand the databook isn't the end all, be all of discussion, it's the only reference point we have to compare) couldn't evade his own(copied) technique, though this can be accredited to him being angered/confused by Kakashi's sharingan.

So to wrap this up, Haku probably could avoid the suitons, however, the raikiri intercepting feat isn't as impressive as simply saying "Haku managed to intercept Kakashi using raikiri at it's max speed".

CQC is Zabuza's only real advantage, and with a feat like , there's no reason he can't do the same against any of Zabuza's CQC-centric attacks, avoiding any detremental damage from his sword in the process.
Zabuza has the advantage of the mist and silent killing on top of the CQC. Haku having knowledge of it doesn't save him from it, considering Kakashi, with knowledge of it, and with a sharingan(which is the only thing that saved him from death, managing to block Zabuza's shuriken at the last second, Zabuza even notes it's impressive he managed that even with the sharingan) , was only barely able to react to Zabuza's attacks in the mist.

And we have no reference point for Haku's "reaction"(which still resulted in Haku getting hit pretty hard, would result in death from getting hit by a blade), as if I recall correctly, it wasn't shown where Gai or Lee came from in terms of the angle or if Haku saw them before hand.

Putting up the Mist shouldn't be an issue either, as Haku's senses, combined with superior speed/reflexes, should counteract any kind of advantage Zabuza would gain by putting the Mist up in the first place.

Haku should be able to put up the Crystal Ice Mirrors (takes a few seconds at most) and take the win there. Zabuza won't be able to destroy the mirrors, or at least not fast enough (Giant Cyclone requires lots of seals) before Haku starts cranking out attacks with Senbon at light-speed.
You're trying to tell me Haku has reaction feats on par with Sharingan Kakashi, who struggled greatly in the mist, having to rely on letting himself get slashed to win? Yeah..no.

Given Zabuza makes no noise in the mist and Haku is completely lacking of anything like the sharingan that would allow him to react last second to anything Zabuza does to him(which as I showed above, Kakashi had to rely on to save his life).

Combining Zabuza's mist with his bunshin abilities that fooled even Kakashi(and you might claim intel saves Haku here, but Kakashi had knowledge of Zabuza's bunshins too) and Haku is completely outclassed. On the extremely rare and off chance Zabuza gets caught in the mirrors(and you're going to have a hard time explaining to me how he would be caught), he simply shatters one of them with his sword and leaves, but again, with his bunshin abilities and knowledge of mirrors, the only thing that would ever get trapped by Haku is a mizu bunshin.
 

EliteKakashi

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Haku freezes that clown and makes him die of hypothermia. EliteKakashi Haku being low chuunin is the best joke I've heard in a while. Pretty sure even Zabuza said that Haku is more dangerous than he is in many ways. That doesn't amount to him being low chuunin and several tiers below Zabuza. Or maybe you forgot what he did in the war?
A lot of characters have stated a lot of things. Deidara claimed Sasori is stronger than him, but we know that's a load of bull. I also don't recall Zabuza claiming Haku was superior, and even if he did/he felt that way, it was quickly disproven considering he thought Haku would neg-diff Sasuke only to see Sasuke match Haku in speed and CQC. He overhyped Haku's abilities and underestimated Sasuke's.
 

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A lot of characters have stated a lot of things. Deidara claimed Sasori is stronger than him, but we know that's a load of bull. I also don't recall Zabuza claiming Haku was superior, and even if he did/he felt that way, it was quickly disproven considering he thought Haku would neg-diff Sasuke only to see Sasuke match Haku in speed and CQC. He overhyped Haku's abilities and underestimated Sasuke's.
Yet you don't have an issue with the hyperbolic statements in regards to Hiruzen.
 
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