Pope Francis credited with a half-miracle

[YowYan]

I like science I do and I agree that many things can be explained and likely this can as well, however, in truth most science fact is actually science theory and the scientific fact can be as well argued as the supernatural fact, in truth what we understand in most cases we only think we understand and there could be another explanation for it. In the end, the truth is the explanation we choose to except, very little is proven, even scientifically, beyond doubt.

But I'm not here to get into an argument that has no end. If people wish to believe the scientific side of things or the supernatural side of things, that is up to them. In the end my point of view has always been, that if the scientific community believe that everything can be explained and no supernatural truth exists, then they are comforting themselves and if the supernatural community believes that every little thing is supernatural then they are lying to themselves. I have a firm belief that there is a happy medium, but thats my opinion, which isn't worth much

You don't have to believe in scientifically proved phenomena. They're fact, wether you like it or not.
As for the supernatural; I conduct intention experiments, see auras and ghosts, have experience with telepathy and hyper sensitivity. Even all that can eventually be explained if science applies cymatics into their research. Everything in existence is the result of a frequency. Thoughts are vibrations. There's plenty of real knowledge and facts in religious scripts, too bad religious nutters can't read between the lines. 'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god'. Word stands for sound frequency. Not a external immeasurable phenomena that 'granted' us anything. No. An atom is almost entirely empty space. That empty space is probably energy and each molecule reverberates at a certain frequency. If you think in these terms (good example is nikola tesla's quote) you can start explaining some previously unexplainable events. Now we just need hard evidence. Some Russian and Japanese scientists are on it and supposedly had a breakthrough with proving the aura to be visible through some type of camera and plants' energy peaks changing abruptly as they're about to be cut with a scissor. There are many mysteries in this world but religion only stupifies and holds back that development. Wake up.

 

[NaNaNaaaaa]

You don't have to believe in scientifically proved phenomena. They're fact, wether you like it or not.
As for the supernatural; I conduct intention experiments, see auras and ghosts, have experience with telepathy and hyper sensitivity. Even all that can eventually be explained if science applies cymatics into their research. Everything in existence is the result of a frequency. Thoughts are vibrations. There's plenty of real knowledge and facts in religious scripts, too bad religious nutters can't read between the lines. 'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god'. Word stands for sound frequency. Not a external immeasurable phenomena that 'granted' us anything. No. An atom is almost entirely empty space. That empty space is probably energy and each molecule reverberates at a certain frequency. If you think in these terms (good example is nikola tesla's quote) you can start explaining some previously unexplainable events. Now we just need hard evidence. Some Russian and Japanese scientists are on it and supposedly had a breakthrough with proving the aura to be visible through some type of camera and plants' energy peaks changing abruptly as they're about to be cut with a scissor. There are many mysteries in this world but religion only stupifies and holds back that development. Wake up.

A good argument can be ruined by being too forceful :erm:

Science makes my faith stronger in many ways, the more miraculous things are, the more it makes me believe in God. I am entitled to that belief without having it attacked, the same as others are entitled to there beliefs as well. I am not saying you attacked me BTW, passing comment.

In short my points where.
Science cannot state fact when they have theory, state fact when they have fact.

Science should study to learn not to disprove

Just because I believe in God does not mean I cannot believe in science, the truth lies in the middle where its nice and wide, not on the sides where its narrow and suffocating.

The Church and God are very different things.

 

[YowYan]

A good argument can be ruined by being too forceful :erm:

Science makes my faith stronger in many ways, the more miraculous things are, the more it makes me believe in God. I am entitled to that belief without having it attacked, the same as others are entitled to there beliefs as well. I am not saying you attacked me BTW, passing comment.

In short my points where.
Science cannot state fact when they have theory, state fact when they have fact.

Science should study to learn not to disprove

Just because I believe in God does not mean I cannot believe in science, the truth lies in the middle where its nice and wide, not on the sides where its narrow and suffocating.

The Church and God are very different things.

Science should study to disprove delusions so we can actually learn without landing in another perpetual loop of gullible views.

Other than that; what you're referring to could be compared to combining esoterism and science. Which is a good thing.

And the church and the religious interpretation of god go hand in hand. Spirituality however, is separate from the church and it's servitude and lipservice to their lord.

 

[Babadook]

So much mess in one thread...Just to clear a few.

Miracles happen, people who believe that everything can be explained are just comforting themselves.

But then, the miracle itself becomes an explanation so indeed everything can be explained...

I'm 100% certain that everything can potentially be explained scientifically.

A scientific explanation doesn't necessarily cover the truth. Also, your 100% certainty is wishful thinking. I'm also 100% certain that God exists , period.

"I can't explain something? Must be God"

The logic is too strong. :bdpf:

I can't explain something > it mustn't be god. Same "strong" logic.

Also, explaining how something works doesn't necessarily explain how and why something came to be.

No, people of faith are just comforting themselves.

People of which faith? The ones different from yours?

 

[YowYan]

So much mess in one thread...Just to clear a few.


But then, the miracle itself becomes an explanation so indeed everything can be explained...

A scientific explanation doesn't necessarily cover the truth. Also, your 100% certainty is wishful thinking. I'm also 100% certain that God exists , period.

I can't explain something > it mustn't be god. Same "strong" logic.

Also, explaining how something works doesn't necessarily explain how and why something came to be.


People of which faith? The ones different from yours?

I'm not religious. As for my esoteric interests, I never claimed it to be irrefutable. The paranormal stuff, that is. Yet, I pointed out some ideas that point towards a legit possibility and how. Can't say that for beliebers.

 

[-Punk-]

Dumb arse sh1t.

 

[Babadook]

I'm not religious.

Yet you say you are a New Ager. Then, Wikipedia has bad news for you: "The New Age movement is a religious or spiritual movement..."

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religious:
...
- of or pertaining to religion
...

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Relating to or believing in a religion

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religion:
- an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

- an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

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"...the movement is characterised by a holistic view of the cosmos, a belief in an emergent Age of Aquarius ...,a belief in channeling, and an adoption of a "New Age science" that makes use of elements of the new physics...The New Age movement includes elements of older spiritual and religious traditions ranging from monotheism through pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, and polytheism combined with science and Gaia philosophy; particularly archaeoastronomy, astrology, ecology, environmentalism, the Gaia hypothesis, psychology, and physics. New Age practices and philosophies sometimes draw inspiration from major world religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Christianity, Hinduism, Sufism (Islam), Judaism (especially Kabbalah), Sikhism; with strong influences from East Asian religions, Esotericism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Idealism, Neopaganism, New Thought, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Universalism, and Wisdom tradition"

Give me a break.

But let me take a wild guess: this proves nothing and your point is that only organized religions are bad. Now the phrase is redundant, as a system of beliefs implies organization in itself. New Age is a movement, and as such, it requires organization. But never mind, in the end, your concepts of 'religion' and 'religious' may have a different meaning to you.

Now what is the church? It's but a societal institution. So is law. So is economics. So is the state. So...what's exactly wrong with organization? Let me tell you, the Pope and the bishops have far more knowledge than - I dare to say- any of us here. They're not some uneducated idiots mocking others on an animeforum. Though, you're right that the community of believers is referred to as flock even in the Bible. But the point is, the church has accumulated a vast knowledge throughout the ages that your so-much-more-spiritual movement is using as well. It's the priests that held that knowledge in the middle ages, and watered it down. Not to mention, the Church seems to be going with the flow of modern times, it only tries to keep some traditional values that noone really shoudl mock. Generalizing them as pedophiles is just stupid. Some of dem religious leaders have done more for the world than you will ever achieve.

Also, I think I've already told you. There are scientists who not only believe in God but also belong to a church. I doubt, though, that they are just brainwashed cattle.

And btw, I'm not even christian...

As for my esoteric interests, I never claimed it to be irrefutable. The paranormal stuff, that is. Yet, I pointed out some ideas that point towards a legit possibility and how. Can't say that for beliebers.

Or you just haven't looked deep enough, or you haven't met the right people...etc. One shall keep learning in all his life. If you think you've found the truth and you are so much more clever than all these sheep: then you have a great responsibility, my friend. Knowledge is power. Great power goes with great responsibility. So...is this the best way to use your wisdom to generalize catholics in a negative way, on an animeforum?

 

[YowYan]

Yet you say you are a New Ager. Then, Wikipedia has bad news for you: "The New Age movement is a religious or spiritual movement..."

You must be registered for see links

religious:
...
- of or pertaining to religion
...

You must be registered for see links

Relating to or believing in a religion

You must be registered for see links

religion:
- an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

- an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

You must be registered for see links

"...the movement is characterised by a holistic view of the cosmos, a belief in an emergent Age of Aquarius ...,a belief in channeling, and an adoption of a "New Age science" that makes use of elements of the new physics...The New Age movement includes elements of older spiritual and religious traditions ranging from monotheism through pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, and polytheism combined with science and Gaia philosophy; particularly archaeoastronomy, astrology, ecology, environmentalism, the Gaia hypothesis, psychology, and physics. New Age practices and philosophies sometimes draw inspiration from major world religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Christianity, Hinduism, Sufism (Islam), Judaism (especially Kabbalah), Sikhism; with strong influences from East Asian religions, Esotericism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Idealism, Neopaganism, New Thought, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Universalism, and Wisdom tradition"

Give me a break.

But let me take a wild guess: this proves nothing and your point is that only organized religions are bad. Now the phrase is redundant, as a system of beliefs implies organization in itself. New Age is a movement, and as such, it requires organization. But never mind, in the end, your concepts of 'religion' and 'religious' may have a different meaning to you.

Now what is the church? It's but a societal institution. So is law. So is economics. So is the state. So...what's exactly wrong with organization? Let me tell you, the Pope and the bishops have far more knowledge than - I dare to say- any of us here. They're not some uneducated idiots mocking others on an animeforum. Though, you're right that the community of believers is referred to as flock even in the Bible. But the point is, the church has accumulated a vast knowledge throughout the ages that your so-much-more-spiritual movement is using as well. It's the priests that held that knowledge in the middle ages, and watered it down. Not to mention, the Church seems to be going with the flow of modern times, it only tries to keep some traditional values that noone really shoudl mock. Generalizing them as pedophiles is just stupid. Some of dem religious leaders have done more for the world that you will ever achieve.

Also, I think I've already told you. There are scientists who not only believe in God but also belong to a church. I doubt though, that they are just brainwashed cattle.

And btw, I'm not even christian...


Or you just haven't looked deep enough, or you haven't met the right people...etc. One shall keep learning in all his life. If you think you've foudn the truth and you are so much clever than all these sheep: then you have a great responsibility, my friend. Knowledge is power. Great power goes with great responsibility. So...is this the best way to use your wisdom to generalize catholics in a negative way, on an animeforum?

Someone's trying hard Lol

The new age outlook on universal principles is more in tune with nature and focuses on breaking down opinion structures that enslave the progress of thought. Religious principles are based on servitude and unquestionable loyalty. It doesn't follow a specific system with pride as religions and cultures do.

''an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group'' It is not that important to new age people to start worshipping the sun, nature, or whatever. They just adopt the message of positive vibrations/love into their everyday behaviour and habits. And most religious traditions teach you to glorify individuals and higher beings that are/were supposedly living the message of love.

As for my statement of not being religious. Let me clarify it for you; I do not follow any organised 'holy' cause that sets a standard of thought and opinion structures, imprisoning the mind. I just conduct intention experiments and try to implement the core of spiritual philosophies into my everyday life.

Ofcourse they have a lot of knowledge, they're high ranking masons. I wonder how many historical artifacts they keep hidden for the masses.

What's wrong about the organisation, which is the vatican city, is that it was and still is a separate state that conquered lands over the lives of thousands throughout the centuries to gain control over the world using the name of the lawd and it's holyness to justify their means. Nowadays, you can go see a magician performing incredible tricks. Thousands of catholics seriously are that gullible enough to still fall for magic tricks by a bunch of pedophiles that have been using the same trick for centuries to proof their semi-holyness and get the simpletons to take them seriously.

Here, you'll actually see a more logical connection to the vatican; [video=youtube;Kkt9OU-9h0E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkt9OU-9h0E[/video]

 

[The Dreamer]

Someone's trying hard Lol

The new age outlook on universal principles is more in tune with nature and focuses on breaking down opinion structures that enslave the progress of thought. Religious principles are based on servitude and unquestionable loyalty. It doesn't follow a specific system with pride as religions and cultures do.

Nice way to lump all the world's religions in one big pot. It's also not true that religious people aren't allowed to question their faith. Actually the entire meaning of faith is contradictive to blind belief. More on that below.

''an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group'' It is not that important to new age people to start worshipping the sun, nature, or whatever. They just adopt the message of positive vibrations/love into their everyday behaviour and habits. And most religious traditions teach you to glorify individuals and higher beings that are/were supposedly living the message of love.

Lumping them all in again. And no. Christianity for instance is often attacked by the likes of you for supposedly doing this. However that utter bs. Christians (Catholics I persume you're aiming at since they have the concept of canonization of saints) only worship God. The individuals aren't glorified. When people say Catholics are praying to saints they fall flat right there. Catholics don't pray to saints. They pray WITH them. However, the concept of canonization is a different topic on it's own.

As for my statement of not being religious. Let me clarify it for you; I do not follow any organised 'holy' cause that sets a standard of thought and opinion structures, imprisoning the mind. I just conduct intention experiments and try to implement the core of spiritual philosophies into my everyday life.

Now I'll get to the word faith wich I mentioned earlier. The Greek word pistis wich is used in New Testament for faith actually is an old word wich means to furnish. It is often used in context of pursuing the evidence. I, myself a Christian, do not blindly follow what others tell me. I investigate all matters, I'm in constant pursuit of knowledge of my faith and the subject of it. Without understanding there cannot be true faith. In short, if I don't know what I believe in, then how can I believe it?

Ofcourse they have a lot of knowledge, they're high ranking masons. I wonder how many historical artifacts they keep hidden for the masses.

And I guess you have some evidence for every pope and high-ranking priest being a mason? And no, by proof I don't mean conspiracy theory material.

What's wrong about the organisation, which is the vatican city, is that it was and still is a separate state that conquered lands over the lives of thousands throughout the centuries to gain control over the world using the name of the lawd and it's holyness to justify their means. Nowadays, you can go see a magician performing incredible tricks. Thousands of catholics seriously are that gullible enough to still fall for magic tricks by a bunch of pedophiles that have been using the same trick for centuries to proof their semi-holyness and get the simpletons to take them seriously.

It is indeed true many horrible things have been done by the Church rulers and justified by belief, however Vatican alone doesn't help you much. Especially not since it wasn't around for the entirety of the Church history. Do a bit of research on Church's influence on the western world and how it reacted to some of the greatest crisis in our history. If you do, you'll see that the pros outweight the cons by a long shot.

But at the end of the day, the Church didn't do anything. The individuals did.

It's so funny how you call all priests pedophiles when the percent of those who have done the sexual crimes are insignificant to the group as a whole. Not to mention those magic tricks to wich all Catholics believe. My response on this thread is a clear proof of your statement being false. I am skeptical of these miracles and investigate them quite a lot. But guess what? So does the Church. The Church has special agencies that investigate matters to every detail and get in close contact with those who are a subject of the miracles. Some of the miracles indeed can be listed off as nothing special but some can't. However, this is closely related to the topic of sainthood so I won't go into it.

I'll just add that they don't perform tricks to entertain the weak minded. All the miracles that are accepted have supposedly happened after the saint's death. It's not a matter of trick or treat. Not to mention the Church has stayed neutral on this exact topic of liquifing blood. The one that called it a miracle is a cardinal. The pope merely made a joke about it.

Here, you'll actually see a more logical connection to the vatican; [video=youtube;Kkt9OU-9h0E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkt9OU-9h0E[/video]

Also the video is just a conspiracy theory. It fails right when it tries to connect the pyramid in the dollar bill with the eye of horus, wich they once again connect to the third eye. The eye of Horus is from Egiptian mythology and it has many differences from the all seing eye, as well as third eye. It's most notable differences are the two tears it bears. They were believed to be a symbol of healing and life, not a symbol of observing reality or getting to a higher spiritual plane.

 

[Callypigia]

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I'm 100% certain that everything can potentially be explained scientifically. Whether we have discovered or understood everything is another animal. That doesn't change the fact that these things can and potentially will be explained scientifically. I actually lol'd at this post Lol.


I didn't mean to ridicule anyone's faith. I just thought it was hilarious that they're passing off an obvious 'magic' trick as a miracle.

It's not a magic trick. It's just science that they don't understand.

 

[Multiply]

A scientific explanation doesn't necessarily cover the truth. Also, your 100% certainty is wishful thinking. I'm also 100% certain that God exists , period.

In which your 100% certainty would be 100% false. Please prove to me that you God exists. Now before you go ahead and pull the, "Prove to me a God does not exist" argument, the burden of proof lies with you. You claim something exists, now prove yourself. Do not present an argument with no evidence.

I'm glad to say your argument is... Destroyed? Lol

I can't explain something > it mustn't be god. Same "strong" logic.

Also, explaining how something works doesn't necessarily explain how and why something came to be.

That makes no sense. No scientist says I can't explain this but it definitely isn't God. Science is not there to disprove religion. Science is to understand what we do not understand. By saying, "I can't explain something > it mustn't be god." proves to me that you do not understand what the fundamentals of science are.

As for the latter portion of your attempt at continuing this debate, that makes no sense either. There doesn't have to be a why, which is what so many people don't understand. The universe and time don't need a reason to exist. Those are human thought processes. "Why is this here and what does it do". The universe does not have to answer those questions. It's literally that simple.

In example. When someone says, " I don't understand how the universe would expand from a singularity, why would it happen?", the very question is flawed. The singularity does not have to do that. The only 'fact' is that it did happen.

Another question people like to ask is, "Well what was before the big bang, or the expansion of the singularity?", to which I reply that the question is again flawed. Nothing happened before the expansion of our universe because with the expansion of the universe came the existence of time itself as we know it. Now unless you believe in a multi-verse(which is a whole new animal itself) that is the only answer you would need.

 

[The Dreamer]

In which your 100% certainty would be 100% false. Please prove to me that you God exists. Now before you go ahead and pull the, "Prove to me a God does not exist" argument, the burden of proof lies with you. You claim something exists, now prove yourself. Do not present an argument with no evidence.

I'm glad to say your argument is... Destroyed? Lol



That makes no sense. No scientist says I can't explain this but it definitely isn't God. Science is not there to disprove religion. Science is to understand what we do not understand. By saying, "I can't explain something > it mustn't be god." proves to me that you do not understand what the fundamentals of science are.

As for the latter portion of your attempt at continuing this debate, that makes no sense either. There doesn't have to be a why, which is what so many people don't understand. The universe and time don't need a reason to exist. Those are human thought processes. "Why is this here and what does it do". The universe does not have to answer those questions. It's literally that simple.

In example. When someone says, " I don't understand how the universe would expand from a singularity, why would it happen?", the very question is flawed. The singularity does not have to do that. The only 'fact' is that it did happen.

Another question people like to ask is, "Well what was before the big bang, or the expansion of the singularity?", to which I reply that the question is again flawed. Nothing happened before the expansion of our universe because with the expansion of the universe came the existence of time itself as we know it. Now unless you believe in a multi-verse(which is a whole new animal itself) that is the only answer you would need.

Hey Dreamz mind if I jump in? I'm sure Baka would answer you but I wouldn't mind having a chat too.

 

[Multiply]

Hey Dreamz mind if I jump in? I'm sure Baka would answer you but I wouldn't mind having a chat too.

Go for it!

 

[The Dreamer]

Go for it!

We'll go way off topic so can we do this through VMs? Do note I'm working on my manga right now so I'll be slow with responding.

 

[Multiply]

We'll go way off topic so can we do this through VMs? Do note I'm working on my manga right now so I'll be slow with responding.

Eh I hate debating over vms :wesobi:

 

[The Dreamer]

Eh I hate debating over vms :wesobi:

Well we'll ruin this thread and there won't be interfering from anyone else so we'd have some privacy. Anyway, if you care message me.

 

[YowYan]

Also the video is just a conspiracy theory. It fails right when it tries to connect the pyramid in the dollar bill with the eye of horus, wich they once again connect to the third eye. The eye of Horus is from Egiptian mythology and it has many differences from the all seing eye, as well as third eye. It's most notable differences are the two tears it bears. They were believed to be a symbol of healing and life, not a symbol of observing reality or getting to a higher spiritual plane.

Healing and life are intertwined with consciousness, buddy. It didn't fail anywhere other than your lack of research.

 

[The Dreamer]

Healing and life are intertwined with consciousness, buddy. It didn't fail anywhere other than your lack of research.

Not in the context the ancient Egyptians used it. They didn't even know what consciousness is but rather represented it and coincense as a heart.

Also why not adress the other points?

 

[YowYan]

Not in the context the ancient Egyptians used it. They didn't even know what consciousness is but rather represented it and coincense as a heart.

Also why not adress the other points?

The heck do you know what the Egyptians knew Lol *dies*
And as for the conspiracy theory: The answers are visible in plain sight. As Jebus Christ said; People have eyes but don't see, ears but don't hear etc. Did you finish the whole vid, or?

 

[NaNaNaaaaa]

I just watched the video of this, Pope Francis is such a love, there he is waving the thing about and the its like 'hey, is it supposed to move like that' then to the guy next to him it was like 'I think i broke it' and then the guy is proclaiming this miracle and he is like 'you have to be kidding, I didn't do it'

It was very cute, miracle or not