I am not going to step in this debate between you two, but he isn't talking about PS here. Onoki is talking about how Madara wasn't taking him seriously then, and fast forward in time, the situation is the same now. "Even then" doesn't mean he's talking about an object, but a point in time, and the argument here is 'he held back and didn't take them seriously'.
It doesn't even remotely imply that he used Susano'o or PS against them.
Point taken. Madara stating "it is said that anyone who sees it dies" should be proof enough that Madara had used PS before. The fact that this guy is saying EMS Madara doesn't have PS.....Lol
Point taken. Madara stating "it is said that anyone who sees it dies" should be proof enough that Madara had used PS before. The fact that this guy is saying EMS Madara doesn't have PS.....Lol
No I disagree on that part with him. Madara did have PS. We saw him use it against Hashirama. Not to mention the dialogue you talked about. It's proof enough that he had had PS for a long time before his battle with Hashirama.
Yes. He did. Anyone who can read the Manga knows that he did.
1. Madara had PS w/ EMS.
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Tsunade is amazed that Hashirama fought this thing. Onoki asks why Madara held back. (held PS back) Madara says that adults don't beat up kids w/ their full power, confirming that he had PS back then. Confirming that he used it on Hashirama.
2. Madara
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-Same Mountain Cutting abilities.
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-Same Swords, shoulder guards, tengu nose, and diamond as the regular PS.
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Now we have Sasuke's PS on Kurama.
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Too similar to PS for anyone to logically say that it's not PS, but some other version of Susanoo that looks nothing like what's in the pic.
3. Sasuke states he's doing what Madara did in the past.
1. That's not relevant. Why he waited till the end to use it doesn't change the fact that he has it.
2. Either because he chose not to, or because he unlocked it on the spot. Either way, it's irrelevant. I can ask you why he didn't use Iso Susanoo from the start instead of fighting Obito separately.
PS on it's own is weaker than a fusion with a Bijuu. It lacks the firepower, and technically speaking, is also weaker defensively since it doesn't have the extra layer of the Bijuu. And in the case of Naruto's Avatar along with the Senjutsu it has, it already has really good durability feats, and to add that to Sasuke's PS was the best case scenario/idea for them, as opposed to going at Obito separately which obviously didn't work out the first time they tried it.
No I disagree on that part with him. Madara did have PS. We saw him use it against Hashirama. Not to mention the dialogue you talked about. It's proof enough that he had had PS for a long time before his battle with Hashirama.
The only reason why I discontinued my belief of EMS Madara having Perfect Susanoo is because of the DB requirements in bold:
Magical garb Susano'o (Iso Susano'o)
Ninjutsu kekke genkai close range supplementary Users: Uchiha Madara/Uchiha Sasuke
Turbulent God, dressed into the gold impregnable armor (likely some kind of mythological armor)!
This jutsu is 9-tailed fox (kuuybi no yoko), sheathed(armored) in clad "Susano'o" armor. Gallantly using weapons that "Susano'o" carry in its front paws(hands),just like the fangs of the predator...!!It also combines the absolute defense and attack power of the "Susano'o" and 9-tails, this jutsu allows the user perfectly utilize different abilities of both (9-tails and Susano'o).
Picture:defense ,that had been invented by Uchiha Madara s "doujutsu" against Hashirama.
Ok,so it is now pretty clear that neither Sasuke nor Madara used Absolute/Complete Susano'o in their battles against obito/Hashirama. It's was just "Susno'o" wrapped around 9-tails. Likely 9-tails physical power allowed to slash that mountains,as Susano'o is only a garb/armor in this jutsu
This was very hard (especially preamble)
Complete( literally full body)Susano'o
Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive.
Users: Uchiha Madara
Eternity reigns within these pupils,allowing to shape the bravery into clad blue!
The power of the "Mangekyo Sharingan" is able to activate incredible ninjutsu.Enormous chakra clad jutsu materialize, towering over the mountains( exceeding the height of the mountains), taking authority over battlefield to its hands(changing the flow of battle).Appearance of the complete jutsu differs in accordance to the user.Moreover for users that are good at ninjutsu "Susano'o"themselves,becomes possible to enter/trigger the invocation of the complete body(kanseitai).Furthermore Susano'o in next form can wear special armor which can shape/turn on wings that allow it to fly.
Picture: the great complete Susano'o cutting strength that can cut-off mountain peaks,is easily enough to shut down even iron hard resistance (or is enough to make even iron-hard enemies to forfeit the battle).
This is just a form of PS. IT coats Kurama with itself. It's still PS. Sasuke coated his PS on Naruto's avatar. So obviously, it was not going to exceed in size as it was meant to completely solder itself to it.
That PS with wings is also PS. You are getting confused by different forms explanation. Nothing more. Also PS is Complete Susano'o. The small - or big difference - between them is Stability and Instability of Chakra. The Databook probably forgot to mention that, but Madara does.
PS on it's own is weaker than a fusion with a Bijuu. It lacks the firepower, and technically speaking, is also weaker defensively since it doesn't have the extra layer of the Bijuu. And in the case of Naruto's Avatar along with the Senjutsu it has, it already has really good durability feats, and to add that to Sasuke's PS was the best case scenario/idea for them, as opposed to going at Obito separately which obviously didn't work out the first time they tried it.
No. If Sasuke had pulled out flying PS with Juugo supplying it with his senjutsu and Naruto went BSM against Juubito, that would have been a better plan, in many ways.
Like I mentioned in another thread, Sasuke with Naruto's cloak =
No. If Sasuke had pulled out flying PS with Juugo supplying it with his senjutsu and Naruto went BSM against Juubito, that would have been a better plan, in many ways.
Like I mentioned in another thread, Sasuke with Naruto's cloak =
Eye power is different from other power ups.. Eye power takes time to develop a jutsu, in Sasuke's case, he only had the use of MS /EMS for about three weeks.. Meaning if he had the chakra he didn't have the jutsu.(PS)
This is proven by itachi and Kakashi. The both had there eyes for years compared to Sasuke's weeks. Neither had the chakra but as soon as Kakashi gain the chakra he pop out PS... It's from having developing time and chakra..
Eye power is different from other power ups.. Eye power takes time to develop a jutsu, in Sasuke's case, he only had the use of MS /EMS for about three weeks.. Meaning if he had the chakra he didn't have the jutsu.(PS)
This is proven by itachi and Kakashi. The both had there eyes for years compared to Sasuke's weeks. Neither had the chakra but as soon as Kakashi gain the chakra he pop out PS... It's from having developing time and chakra..
No we're not talking about "if" or what could have been or should have been we are talking about did Sasuke have PS before gaining Hagoromo's chakra. And the answer is no. No he didn't.
No we're not talking about "if" or what could have been or should have been we are talking about did Sasuke have PS before gaining Hagoromo's chakra. And the answer is no. No he didn't.
Then I'll accept your concession, cause you've literally decided to ignore an argument because you don't care. Reply back when you can actually form a real counter instead of this nonsense. Counter my post or concede.
Magical garb Susano'o (Iso Susano'o)
Ninjutsu kekke genkai close range supplementary
Users: Uchiha Madara/Uchiha Sasuke
Turbulent God, dressed into the gold impregnable armor (likely some kind of mythological armor)!
This jutsu is 9-tailed fox (kuuybi no yoko), sheathed(armored) in clad "Susano'o" armor. Gallantly using weapons that "Susano'o" carry in its front paws(hands),just like the fangs of the predator...!!It also combines the absolute defense and attack power of the "Susano'o" and 9-tails, this jutsu allows the user perfectly utilize different abilities of both (9-tails and Susano'o).
Picture:defense ,that had been invented by Uchiha Madara s "doujutsu" against Hashirama.
Then I'll accept your concession, cause you've literally decided to ignore an argument because you don't care. Reply back when you can actually form a real counter instead of this nonsense. Counter my post or concede.
Heading: Turbulent God, dressed into the gold impregnable armor (likely some kind of mythological armor)!
Classification: Ninjutsu/Kekkei Genkai
Rank: No Rank
Class: Supplementary
Range: Short-Range
User(s): Uchiha Madara, Uchiha Sasuke
This technique is Nine Tails, sheathed (armored) in clad Susanoo armor. Gallantly using weapons that Susanoo carry in its front paws (hands) ,just like the fangs of the predator...!! It also combines the absolute defense and attack power of the Susanoo and Nine Tails, this technique allows the user perfectly utilize different abilities of both.
→ Defense, that had been invented by Uchiha Madara's Dōjutsu against Hashirama.
