[VS] Jiraiya vs. Kakuzu

[Ghost in the Shell]

It had no need to glide at all during its fight? As its jutsu height encompasses a pretty high vertical

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(Dont forget those trees are ginormous)

Impressive, a technique that's

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, and much smaller relative to a

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, Jiraiya's own vertical when we consider that he jumped onto a

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(Ken is the same size as Bunta, LeBrick James ain't got nothing on Jman u_u), and Katon: Gamayu Endan [

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].

Kakuzu's main priority will be getting the masks and himself out of Yomi Numa rather than attacking, which is

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, doesn't use the snake symbol usually utilized for Earth Release techniques, and which Kakuzu has no knowledge of per the thread's stipulations.

Also the flame mask has at least been shown to glide

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-

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They take off and last for two whole pages in the air (You can see them in the middle panel in the air as well curving and then ultimately changing directions as the last panel is going in a different direction which is evident that they can do more then fly) So if something that can definitely fly attaches to something that can glide... I don't see how it would make any difference here even if it can't fly as fast or as high its jutsu's range clearly makes up for that dis advantage if there is one.

Gliding isn't flying, and the mask will need to come back down to some type of surface at some point. The only mask that can fly for extended periods of time by virtue of having wings cannot attach itself to something it won't be able to support since it'll have to come down. Anyways the masks won't be getting the chance to jump, where they are vulnerable to getting crushed by Ranjishigami no Jutsu as well since I think Kakuzu can't use more than one attack separately except for a combination, which is still fired off in conjunction with each other.

Why does he need to use gian? His katon would suffice not to mention again they've all been shown to go aerial for a good amount of time, so its doubtful that he'll trap more then one thing at a time especially since they'll spread out here. J man is a sannin Kakuzu won't merely be trying to obtain a heart here like he was against team ten and Kakashi. Katon would harden the mud thus allowing him to break free with domu

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Pretty sure that Kakuzu starts in base in this scenario, and the process of

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takes longer than Yomi Numa's execution. Don't know how the masks will manage to spread out since they spawn near

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, and they can't use Kakuzu's body as a platform to jump either, so they will all get stuck in the swamp. Using Zukkoku in such a scenario will be a mistake since Jiraiya + his clones can just jump and spit oil from different angles at Kakuzu's general vincinity to bypass Zukkoku's AoE, which will turn himself and all of the masks into a fire ball. Kakuzu may survive due to Domu, but the masks won't, leaving him with one heart.

The grand total of one shadow clone he's shown to make my man? It would get pawned by gian upon creation.

Bruh, don't go all super yang on me and cry about how a character can't do more than what is logically within his/her capability despite never showing it in the manga. Jiraiya has enormous chakra levels as noted in the manga, and as noted by his 5/5 stat in the databook. He can feasibly create several shadow clones, and I think the most he'll need is 2 or 3. Unless you can link me to a scan of him doing so, Kakuzu can't us more than one seperate attack at a given time either, and he's going to be focusing on getting out of Yomi Numa.

Domu takes any and all of J mans katons. Oil merely hastens the spread of a flame does it not perhaps adding a bit more force to the eruption of the flames, however wind fuels it gives it more oxygen making the flames more potent along with giving it added combustion force I don't see how it could even stalemate Kakuzu's not to mention over power it. So yeah that can counter if needed

Wind/Fire combo is no where near TOFB's size and AoE if that's what you're getting at in the second half of this statement. Rasengan bypasses Domu if needed because it does heavy internal damage as opposed to external.

Ah so you're smart enough to know that he needs to be above I see im impressed most do not, I mean Kakuzu's domu can tank. It would be extremely unpleasant for a toad to have solid carbon inserting itself into its backside. If for some reason he can't feel Kakuzu well he'd get up and Kakuzu would be free either way thats not the way to go, nor would it damage masks as they've already shown to tank an extreme force

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Nah crushing force isn't the way to go against a guy who's threads can alter shape and form to cushion and take the force of almost any impact.

Are you talking about Choji's multi sized punch?? Yeah, FCD takes a dump on that move in terms of force and strength. Bijuu sized creature falling down with a good deal of speed >>>>> enlarged punches from Choji who is no where near the size of a bijuu in the state he showed in that scan. We can speculate all day about Domu tanking FCD, but the masks will get plastered no ifs, ands, or buts about that.

As for rasengan well, its not a move that can cause damage to ones heart, again the threads from Kakuzu's insides could even creep out and halt the rotation of it even if it comes into contact with Kakuzu rendering it useless. Either way it may throw Kakuzu back a bit but its not doing any internal damge to his one and only organ.. the heart

It causes severe internal damage all around the body's torso if landed on the chest, meaning that it'll do damage to the heart, don't know how you came to that conclusion. Rasengan isn't a piercing technique either, so it'll bypass Domu's defense quite easily, especially if Jiraiya uses Oodama Rasengan.

Pitty as I have official debating experience with SM J-Man base is mere childs play

Cool

 

[Zexion~]

Unless my memory is incorrect on how those hearts operate, genjutsu is most definitely a problem. If the genjutsu hits Kakuzu, it completely paralyzes his mind and body, and he's no longer able to control the hearts, so they'd be paralyzed too. Even if you want to argue they can move without Kakuzu being able to do anything/control them, it becomes a lot easier for Jiraiya/Fukasaku/Shima to cut them down without Kakuzu getting in the way, and that genjutsu lasts on the opponent until Fukasaku/Shima decide to lift it, so that's not a worry.

Saying the "toads can be taken care of" as if they're an after thought is a bit foolish. Gamahiro doesn't really have any significant abilities to worry about but he's decent with his swords. Gamaken is monster in CQC. Bunta is ridiculously fast for his size and has elemental abilities of his own. You could also grant Gamakichi in full size to this fight, but I'll assume for the sake of the argument that SM Jiraiya is only granted the toads that would have been usable when he was alive. While none of them by themselves present much of an issue to Kakuzu, all 3 together with SM Jiraiya most certainly do. The masks having to worry about being struck by Hiro/Gen/Bunta or shot down by Bunta's oil or suiton is a big factor.

And it being trollish isn't something I'll argue, but I didn't give her the ability to do it. That's Kishi for you.

I won't say too much but Kakuzu was dead and they still operated meaning the brain was completely cut off.

But thats not how he counters that Kakuzu's fuuton causes extreme air pressure to explode within the blast radius. As we all know sound waves are shredded within area's with extreme pressure.....

The toads are still toads they're skin is vulnerable Gian can pierce them pretty quickly with multiple bolts only problem would be bunta's bullets but even still Gians pretty fast

Toads also have leather skin so its not flame redundant his Katon + Faton combo is hard to avoid

Those toads couldn't even hit a less air-agile Deva path never mind the masks that can fly/glide with more precise movements

 

[Zexion~]

Impressive, a technique that's

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, and much smaller relative to a

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, Jiraiya's own vertical when we consider that he jumped onto a

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(Ken is the same size as Bunta, LeBrick James ain't got nothing on Jman u_u), and Katon: Gamayu Endan [

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].

My man come on now all these times and you still haven't read the Kakuzu fight avidly I see. Those are far from normal sized tree's

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If you can scale you can tell they are as tale if not taller then Bunta even in his largest form. Also Jiraiya clearly summoned that toad under him directly my man he didn't jump.

Kakuzu's main priority will be getting the masks and himself out of Yomi Numa rather than attacking, which is

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, doesn't use the snake symbol usually utilized for Earth Release techniques, and which Kakuzu has no knowledge of per the thread's stipulations.

Masks would be in the air and in separate places then Kakuzu though. Again it will take him seconds to get out of that with his Katon mud is hardened

Gliding isn't flying, and the mask will need to come back down to some type of surface at some point. The only mask that can fly for extended periods of time by virtue of having wings cannot attach itself to something it won't be able to support since it'll have to come down.

They don't have to permanently fly against an opponent who doesn't either. Gliding is still enough to constantly bother Jiraiya on his toad with jutsu and what not. Yes but the wind hearts speed is pretty fast notice how it was able to fly, cast

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then immediately appear right back at Kakuzus side

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So he can do the same here

Anyways the masks won't be getting the chance to jump, where they are vulnerable to getting crushed by Ranjishigami no Jutsu as well since I think Kakuzu can't use more than one attack separately except for a combination, which is still fired off in conjunction with each other.

What? You just stated a major contradiction you say Kakuzu can't fire off more then one jutsu at once but then clearly state that he can use two jutsu at the same time for a combo? He's already shown he can do so even when not combining for an attack

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Pretty sure that Kakuzu starts in base in this scenario, and the process of

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takes longer than Yomi Numa's execution. Don't know how the masks will manage to spread out since they spawn near

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,

Oh man you're having Kakuzu trapped before he even lets out his masks, noob move my man, he's already shown he can fire off jutsu when the masks are in his body...His katon jutsu drops a fireball towards the ground meaning that if he uses it while its own his back the fireball would still strike the mud and harden it... Domu would protect Kakuzu from any harm himeslf. Even if you don't want to accept that truth you have already admitted that they can glide? No reason they can't glide right out of the body

Using Zukkoku in such a scenario will be a mistake since Jiraiya + his clones can just jump and spit oil from different angles at Kakuzu's general vincinity to bypass Zukkoku's AoE, which will turn himself and all of the masks into a fire ball. Kakuzu may survive due to Domu, but the masks won't, leaving him with one heart.

So jiraiya is going to be able to have all four of his clones converge before a fireball less then 5 feet from the ground reaches it? Thats fan fiction my man. Also Domu clearly protects the masks when they are on his back as well (Tanked a Bijuu fireball and Chouji's human bolder which should have caused some damage to his back as well).

Bruh, don't go all super yang on me and cry about how a character can't do more than what is logically within his/her capability despite never showing it in the manga. Jiraiya has enormous chakra levels as noted in the manga, and as noted by his 5/5 stat in the databook. He can feasibly create several shadow clones, and I think the most he'll need is 2 or 3. Unless you can link me to a scan of him doing so, Kakuzu can't us more than one seperate attack at a given time either, and he's going to be focusing on getting out of Yomi Numa.

Oh man so you want to go that route you've just given me permission to wreck your clones

Spoiler

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Read the caption "Multiple enemies" and by your J Man clone logic Kakuzu has enough chakra to use dozen of that jutsu as he took on how many enemies without breaking a sweat or showing any sign of chakra depletion? In fact before he was trolled by Naruto his chakra was even said to have grown

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Yeah underrated fact about Kakuzu he's a stamina beast.

Wind/Fire combo is no where near TOFB's size and AoE if that's what you're getting at in the second half of this statement. Rasengan bypasses Domu if needed because it does heavy internal damage as opposed to external.

Take another look at those tree's and my description of physics with flames and wind/oil.

Kakuzu inerds are pure threads my man no organs?

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So what is there for the Rasengan to do damage to? Again you're ignoring the threads basically cushioning the brunt force of rasengan.

Are you talking about Choji's multi sized punch?? Yeah, FCD takes a dump on that move in terms of force and strength. Bijuu sized creature falling down with a good deal of speed >>>>> enlarged punches from Choji who is no where near the size of a bijuu in the state he showed in that scan. We can speculate all day about Domu tanking FCD, but the masks will get plastered no ifs, ands, or buts about that.

You realize the legs of the toad will actually lessen the impact right? Its meant for large targets.... either way threads have already shown to dig through the earth quick enough for it to be completely hidden before a burst of smoke blows away

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It causes severe internal damage all around the body's torso if landed on the chest, meaning that it'll do damage to the heart, don't know how you came to that conclusion. Rasengan isn't a piercing technique either, so it'll bypass Domu's defense quite easily, especially if Jiraiya uses Oodama Rasengan.

Shouldn't chouji's attack have given Kakuzu a concussion then? No? Threads tank any internal shockwaves Domu cant prevent, its a one two punch in terms of defense my man that only Kakuzu can use you're overlooking quite a lot of things my man. Rasengan ins't working here


Sorry for the lessening grammar its getting kind of late where I am

 

[super yang]

Raiton: Gian, making posters feel awkward since 2003.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I won't say too much but Kakuzu was dead and they still operated meaning the brain was completely cut off.

Fair enough, my memory was wrong. That doesn't stop it from being easy for SM Jiraiya to take the masks out once Kakuzu is out of the picture, though.

But thats not how he counters that Kakuzu's fuuton causes extreme air pressure to explode within the blast radius. As we all know sound waves are shredded within area's with extreme pressure.....

I question how he's going to know when the right moment is to even do this, considering he has no intel. You can make an argument that he might recognize it's genjutsu, cause Nagato did, but he's got no way of knowing when the effect is supposed to kick in. And that futon mask isn't going to be able to spam when the 3 toads are attacking.

The toads are still toads they're skin is vulnerable Gian can pierce them pretty quickly with multiple bolts only problem would be bunta's bullets but even still Gians pretty fast

There's Bunta's bullets/speed and Ken's shield(I dunno how much of gian it can take, but it took on the full force of Pain's bird summon drilling in to it..it should be able to take a hit or two at least). While the raiton mask is attacking one toad, it can be attacked by SM Jiraiya or one of the other two toads.

Toads also have leather skin so its not flame redundant his Katon + Faton combo is hard to avoid

It's overwhelmed by goemon or gamayu endan or multiple suiton blasts from Bunta, though.

Those toads couldn't even hit a less air-agile Deva path never mind the masks that can fly/glide with more precise movements

When did they even try attacking Deva without getting pushed back by shinra tensei?

 

[Zexion~]

Fair enough, my memory was wrong. That doesn't stop it from being easy for SM Jiraiya to take the masks out once Kakuzu is out of the picture, though.



I question how he's going to know when the right moment is to even do this, considering he has no intel. You can make an argument that he might recognize it's genjutsu, cause Nagato did, but he's got no way of knowing when the effect is supposed to kick in. And that futon mask isn't going to be able to spam when the 3 toads are attacking.



There's Bunta's bullets/speed and Ken's shield(I dunno how much of gian it can take, but it took on the full force of Pain's bird summon drilling in to it..it should be able to take a hit or two at least). While the raiton mask is attacking one toad, it can be attacked by SM Jiraiya or one of the other two toads.



It's overwhelmed by goemon or gamayu endan or multiple suiton blasts from Bunta, though.



When did they even try attacking Deva without getting pushed back by shinra tensei?

Mind if I just counter a few things that other post drained me lml

-I wouldn't say goamen (Lava attack) Would counter the combo as its still a liquid that remains on the ground and if its in an open area its a decently easy jutsu to avoid ( Didn't check the loctation tbh) So its arguable if liquid on the ground will fully halt something thats actually quite big

-Eh even with the combined use of the pipes it still took enough time for pain to reach them. Oh you mean that they could continue it after? As I stated in the post for PN Kakuzu is a stamina beast my man, however he wouldn't really have to spam it people don't realize that the J man V.S Pain setting was very advantageous for SM's jutsu out in an open battle field not only would the atsugi rip the shockwaves but it would also force J man to retreat backwards pretty sure if they are even interrupted once they have to start over anyways wasn't that stated? Or am I remembering wrong either way I dont think that is whats going to be taking him down.
Oh you said when the three toads are attacking ... perhaps don't forget thats the mask that can definitely fly with agility so theres that plus the fuuton should still cause some damage to the toads.

-The toads were getting quite embarrassed hold on

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I guess there is only this but still their attacks seem pretty clunky compared to agile humans

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

My man come on now all these times and you still haven't read the Kakuzu fight avidly I see. Those are far from normal sized tree's

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If you can scale you can tell they are as tale if not taller then Bunta even in his largest form. Also Jiraiya clearly summoned that toad under him directly my man he didn't jump.

All this time and you're sticking to that weak tree argument? Trees look so much bigger when the manga closes up on them, especially when we consider that the whole Kakuzu and Hidan fight closed up on the characters instead of the landscape, and shinobi obviously look comparatively smaller to the trees. Bunta is as large as the Kyuubi who was towering over an entire village. He was also towering over

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, which is more or less on par with that one if we actually apply scaling. Jiraiya did jump, and then he summoned Ken under himself if you look at the scans again, and he landed right on top of Ken. Not even MJ has anything on Jman ^_^

Masks would be in the air and in separate places then Kakuzu though. Again it will take him seconds to get out of that with his Katon mud is hardened

They'll land right on the swamp as Jiraiya gets ready to attack.

They don't have to permanently fly against an opponent who doesn't either. Gliding is still enough to constantly bother Jiraiya on his toad with jutsu and what not. Yes but the wind hearts speed is pretty fast notice how it was able to fly, cast

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then immediately appear right back at Kakuzus side

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So he can do the same here

They won't be gliding or flying stuck on a swamp. The wind mask never got far away from Kakuzu.

What? You just stated a major contradiction you say Kakuzu can't fire off more then one jutsu at once but then clearly state that he can use two jutsu at the same time for a combo? He's already shown he can do so even when not combining for an attack

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That was when he was fused to his masks in EGF mode, he could just knead his chakra directly on to them instead of having to form hand seals. The combination counts as one attack since the masks fused. He can't do that with the masks separated unless you show me that he can fire off separate attacks at different times like the anime showed.

Oh man you're having Kakuzu trapped before he even lets out his masks, noob move my man, he's already shown he can fire off jutsu when the masks are in his body...His katon jutsu drops a fireball towards the ground meaning that if he uses it while its own his back the fireball would still strike the mud and harden it... Domu would protect Kakuzu from any harm himeslf. Even if you don't want to accept that truth you have already admitted that they can glide? No reason they can't glide right out of the body

Doubt Kakuzu can use Domu and Zukkoku at the same time. If he uses Zukkoku first to harden the swamp and the masks aren't out its even better since Jiraiya can just spit oil at him and have all the masks within his body get incinerated. They can't glide out of the body because they need a strong platform with which to jump from like in the

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you showed, bruh.

So jiraiya is going to be able to have all four of his clones converge before a fireball less then 5 feet from the ground reaches it? Thats fan fiction my man. Also Domu clearly protects the masks when they are on his back as well (Tanked a Bijuu fireball and Chouji's human bolder which should have caused some damage to his back as well).

What are you talking about? They won't be jumping towards the fireball like you're insinuating, they'd shunshin or leap to either sides of the swamp and spit oil at Kakuzu. If anything the fire mask has to come out of Kakuzu's back first and then prep and fire off the attack [

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]-[

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].That gives Jiraiya enough time to employ his strategy. He can just spit oil right at Kakuzu after forming Yomi Numa as well, making using Zukoku, or even Gian a bad idea since the electric shock would light the oil on fire... Then we have the option of Jiraiya just summoning Bunta and releasing a fire storm onto Kakuzu and his hearts as well. Matatabi is just... pathetic for a bijuu, I'll just say that. It's fire release probably isn't as strong as Jiraiya's giant oil enhanced katon.

Oh man so you want to go that route you've just given me permission to wreck your clones

Spoiler

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Read the caption "Multiple enemies" and by your J Man clone logic Kakuzu has enough chakra to use dozen of that jutsu as he took on how many enemies without breaking a sweat or showing any sign of chakra depletion? In fact before he was trolled by Naruto his chakra was even said to have grown

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Yeah underrated fact about Kakuzu he's a stamina beast.

By my logic? By the manga's logic, bruh. Shadow clones split chakra by 50% giving them plenty of chakra to perform mid to high leveled techniques. Anyways what will Kakuzu do? Break out of the swamp or attack the clones? He can't do both at the same time with Gian, and that's still a ninjutsu that can be stalemated by katon which doesn't need hand seals to perform [

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], evaded jumping up or using shunshin, especially since that raiton technique also needs

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as well. If Kakuzu chooses to attack he'll get sunk deeper into the swamp, while Jiraiya can counter his jutsu rather feasibly.

Take another look at those tree's and my description of physics with flames and wind/oil.

I'd rather not... TOFB easily enveloped a bijuu sized creature in Manda and then some as shown by the scan I already posted. Your basis of the trees being as big or larger than Bunta to prove that the combo is bigger than TOFB is flawed as well.

Kakuzu inerds are pure threads my man no organs?

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So what is there for the Rasengan to do damage to? Again you're ignoring the threads basically cushioning the brunt force of rasengan.

A bunch of measely threads won't protect Kakuzu from Rasengan or Oodama Rasengan destroying his heart. I also have no clue why you're comparing Edo Kakuzu's body to alive Kakuzu's body.

You realize the legs of the toad will actually lessen the impact right? Its meant for large targets.... either way threads have already shown to dig through the earth quick enough for it to be completely hidden before a burst of smoke blows away

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Cool, won't stop the hearts from getting plastered. Clearly the way the hearts move on their own is different to how Kakuzu manipulates the threads from his own body, and Kakuzu won't be doing that inside Dark Swamp. The only conceivable way they don't get plastered by this technique is if Kakuzu uses Domu while they're all still inside his body... and that's still debatable, because by feats FCD crushes Domu.

Shouldn't chouji's attack have given Kakuzu a concussion then? No? Threads tank any internal shockwaves Domu cant prevent, its a one two punch in terms of defense my man that only Kakuzu can use you're overlooking quite a lot of things my man. Rasengan ins't working here

Chouji punched the hearts, which were away from Kakuzu's body, so I have no clue what your point is. No, the threads aren't protecting Kakuzu from Rasengan.

Sorry for the lessening grammar its getting kind of late where I am

I should probably start writing this essay I'm supposed to write so if you reply I'll most likely reply tomorrow.

 

[KidGamer65]

Read the caption "Multiple enemies" and by your J Man clone logic Kakuzu has enough chakra to use dozen of that jutsu as he took on how many enemies without breaking a sweat or showing any sign of chakra depletion? In fact before he was trolled by Naruto his chakra was even said to have grown (X) Yeah underrated fact about Kakuzu he's a stamina beast.

Lol, are you still using this argument? Multiple enemies means 2 or more. That's all he gets until something proves that he can use more than 2.

 

[Zexion~]

Lol, are you still using this argument? Multiple enemies means 2 or more. That's all he gets until something proves that he can use more than 2.

My man you're slipping the actual definition is

having or involving several parts, elements, or members.

Several is more then two.... sorry

more than two but not many.

So obviously he can't fire off like 20 but 7-10 is reasonable

 

[EliteKakashi]

Mind if I just counter a few things that other post drained me lml

-I wouldn't say goamen (Lava attack) Would counter the combo as its still a liquid that remains on the ground and if its in an open area its a decently easy jutsu to avoid ( Didn't check the loctation tbh) So its arguable if liquid on the ground will fully halt something thats actually quite big

Hard to say. Goemon is also katon and futon combined, just with oil added. In terms of being easy to avoid, I'm not sure. It seems to be pretty fast, and is extremely large jutsu.

This is shown as their battleground:

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This is how big goemon was:

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Notice how even though the Pains were elevated compared to Jiraiya, the "wave" of goemon was still taller than they were. Jiraiya even jumped up on to a wall to get out of it(at least I assume that's why..no other reason to):

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No idea if Kakuzu's combo could push that away or not.

-Eh even with the combined use of the pipes it still took enough time for pain to reach them. Oh you mean that they could continue it after? As I stated in the post for PN Kakuzu is a stamina beast my man, however he wouldn't really have to spam it people don't realize that the J man V.S Pain setting was very advantageous for SM's jutsu out in an open battle field not only would the atsugi rip the shockwaves but it would also force J man to retreat backwards pretty sure if they are even interrupted once they have to start over anyways wasn't that stated? Or am I remembering wrong either way I dont think that is whats going to be taking him down.

Well I meant they could just keep using it until the shockwave from the futon is gone. All it has to do is reach Kakuzu's sense of hearing. So long as Jiraiya avoids the blast of the futon(assuming the mask gets it off with the toads intervening). Jiraiya can move while they're performing the song without it interrupting them:

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And I dunno if it was stated or not anywhere, but that would be logical(them having to start over). They have to synch perfectly, so interrupting that would likely result in a start over. It's also not a technique they can spam because it hurts their throats, not sure how many uses they can get out of it if interrupted.

The location is set as Amakagure's tower. I do imagine with the blast radius of Jiraiya and Kakuzu's ninjutsu, they'd find themselves out in the open sooner or later, though.

Oh you said when the three toads are attacking ... perhaps don't forget thats the mask that can definitely fly with agility so theres that plus the fuuton should still cause some damage to the toads.

Yes, the flying mask could prove to be annoying. Fukasaku's tounge should be able to take it down with how fast he is with it, but that would require support from the toads as well in defense against Kakuzu/the other masks as well.

-The toads were getting quite embarrassed hold on

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I guess there is only this but still their attacks seem pretty clunky compared to agile humans

I know after the toads dealt with the summons their use was limited, but I only remember it being because of Deva's abilities. Bunta and Ken's speed should allow numerous attacks in a row, though, even if they do miss. Especially Ken with his sasumata. As large as it is, it provides some room for error on the judgement of where the attack should be.

If nothing else, he could attempt to "smack" the masks with his shield, as large as it is.

 

[Zexion~]

All this time and you're sticking to that weak tree argument? Trees look so much bigger when the manga closes up on them, especially when we consider that the whole Kakuzu and Hidan fight closed up on the characters instead of the landscape, and shinobi obviously look comparatively smaller to the trees. Bunta is as large as the Kyuubi who was towering over an entire village. He was also towering over

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, which is more or less on par with that one if we actually apply scaling. Jiraiya did jump, and then he summoned Ken under himself if you look at the scans again, and he landed right on top of Ken. Not even MJ has anything on Jman ^_^

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here? Kishi has shown that his scaling even when close up against tree's is rather normal

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Most highly evident in the Deidara V.S Sasuke battle

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. So your claiming that randomly kishi decides to blow up a tree for no reason? While keeping it constant throughout the whole fight

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Also not focusing on the landscape? The battle clearly shows devastation to the landscape more then I have seen in other battles

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Even utilizing the tree's

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and guess what? You can never even see the top of it even when Hidans climbing up. Literally Hidan was in a free fall and he couldn't even show signs of reaching the bottom

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These clearly aren't normal trees. It doesn't really matter if he jumped or not.

Also old Japanese style villages aren't really known for they're height but yeah i'm not saying Bunta isn't huge but these trees are gigantic as well. Also the size clearly varies most likely depending on the opponent they are summoned against

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Pain was not really that small compared to them ( Look at middle scan)

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So yeah just thought i'd throw that out there.

They'll land right on the swamp as Jiraiya gets ready to attack.

What are you saying? Jiraiya has never shown to spawn Swamp in multiple places ? The largest swamp he spawned was certainly long but its width wasn't all that impressive (Snakes aren't that wide) Hearts can easily avoid that when landing, that is if they are already out in the first place you've said that he uses it before Kakuzu even releases them? Make up your mind my man.

They won't be gliding or flying stuck on a swamp. The wind mask never got far away from Kakuzu.

Biased statements I suppose. As we can see from this Kakashi perspective scan

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Kakuzu kicked him a good 10-15 meters away, now add the few more meters Hidan knocked Kakashi back

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Thats a good 20-23 meters in a second or two? Is it not?

Quick tip if you're going to make statements like "the wind mask never got far from Kakuzu" You should get some things to back it up

That was when he was fused to his masks in EGF mode, he could just knead his chakra directly on to them instead of having to form hand seals. The combination counts as one attack since the masks fused.

What? Is this his combination moves aren't KKG they don't combine different chakra elements to form one thing they are literally two attacks used simultaneously. Besides you're proven wrong by the simple fact that two masks still remain even when the bodies fuse? If it were one attack there would merely be one mask firing one jutsu.

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<<<That argument is proven wrong in this scan

The bodies fuse to make sure that it will be a combo. Kakuzu's not one to leave variables in his actions.

He can't do that with the masks separated unless you show me that he can fire off separate attacks at different times like the anime showed.

Again where is your logic to back this up? Each heart has its own individual chakra tubes with chakra in them. All Kakuzu needs to do is activate the jutsu, which he can do easily. Only ones that need handsigns are Katon and Fuuton and notice its the same handsign

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-

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, pretty sure actually that his handsign is specific to his kinjutsu that allows him to use any offensive jutsu. That or its just a coincidence but still either way logic is on the side that he can use both at the same time.

Doubt Kakuzu can use Domu and Zukkoku at the same time.

Lml what? Again the fire ball needs to drop first. So he activates the katon then activates his domu which was quick enough to react to an ambush Raikiri

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Unfortunately it did him no good in that situation but still.

If he uses Zukkoku first to harden the swamp and the masks aren't out its even better since Jiraiya can just spit oil at him and have all the masks within his body get incinerated. They can't glide out of the body because they need a strong platform with which to jump from like in the

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you showed, bruh.

Again with the oil :| Honestly if you think firing oil from wherever these clones would be ( Which is strange in itself as J man has no knowledge on Kakuzu so he won't know that he'd need clones to balance out the numbers if the hearts are still in his back) is quicker then a 6 foot drop then even I can't help you.

Also That's not stated at all? Is his body not a suitable platform? He would merely fire them out of his back and while already having momentum they would be able to glide at least the pathetic distance of the swamp? ( Width isn't that large)

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You can clearly see they are stretching/pushing with force out of his back. If they continue pushing once the thing restraining them (His back) is gone they would be shot like an elastic... Physics its a marvelous thing ( Even though i'm not all that suited in it i know this much)

But again he can use Zukkaku from his back no problem.

What are you talking about? They won't be jumping towards the fireball like you're insinuating, they'd shunshin or leap to either sides of the swamp and spit oil at Kakuzu.

So you're saying that before he even knows a katon attack is coming he's going to be spewing oil? Biased arguments as J man has no sensing abilities nor sharingan to read hand-signs.

If anything the fire mask has to come out of Kakuzu's back first and then prep and fire off the attack [

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]-[

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].That gives Jiraiya enough time to employ his strategy. He can just spit oil right at Kakuzu after forming Yomi Numa as well, making using Zukoku, or even Gian a bad idea since the electric shock would light the oil on fire.

My god this is getting rough. So you're saying the mask can't open within Kakuzu's back? Despite me already showing you scans of it doing so? Again you're making statements without logic why would he randomly put oil on Kakuzu when he's trapped in the swamp? Has he been shown to do so? Either way spewing oild<<<<A 6 foot drop of a fireball.

And for the last time Domu tanks any flames with or without oil. So this whole thing is incredibly pointless. As if the masks are in his body they are protected, if they are not they wouldn't be caught as J man cant use more then one swamp at a time.

.. Then we have the option of Jiraiya just summoning Bunta and releasing a fire storm onto Kakuzu and his hearts as well. Matatabi is just... pathetic for a bijuu, I'll just say that. It's fire release probably isn't as strong as Jiraiya's giant oil enhanced katon.

Wait wut? Bunta knows no flame techniques.. so summoning him merely make your strategy take even longer for no reason. It wasn't a full Bijuu size wise at least. And pathetic for a Bijuu my god my man have you read this arc? One fire ball did

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And Kakuzu was unharmed as were his masks.

By my logic? By the manga's logic, bruh. Shadow clones split chakra by 50% giving them plenty of chakra to perform mid to high leveled techniques. Anyways what will Kakuzu do? Break out of the swamp or attack the clones? He can't do both at the same time with Gian,

*sigh* You realize that would be 50%^The number of shadow clones right? Making three shadow clones means thet its already at 12% of original chakra. Well I believe thats how it works anyways. Again if the masks are still in his back when swamp is used they can glide out of Kakuzu and proceed to Gian the few clones Jiraiya can make. If not the the clones can't really do anything as one of the masks> Jiraiyas clones.

and that's still a ninjutsu that can be stalemated by katon which doesn't need hand seals to perform [

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], evaded jumping up or using shunshin, especially since that raiton technique also needs

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as well. If Kakuzu chooses to attack he'll get sunk deeper into the swamp, while Jiraiya can counter his jutsu rather feasibly.

I really hope you're not trying to say that a feeble katon will stop Kakuzu's that was able to do this

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if you truly believe that and I mean like deep in your soul... then there is something wrong here. It obviously won't... Or are you trying to say that a feeble Katon can stop a raiton on par with Raikiri in terms of power?

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Either way it comes off as you being a little embarrassed.

I'd rather not... TOFB easily enveloped a bijuu sized creature in Manda and then some as shown by the scan I already posted. Your basis of the trees being as big or larger than Bunta to prove that the combo is bigger than TOFB is flawed as well.

I've seen the scan, We couldn't really tell if it enveloped him as he dug underground before it took full effect but again, the fact that it coldn't even melt one layer of snake skin completely ( It was still there) Doesn't give me all high expectations for this jutsu

A bunch of measely threads won't protect Kakuzu from Rasengan or Oodama Rasengan destroying his heart. I also have no clue why you're comparing Edo Kakuzu's body to alive Kakuzu's body.

Do you see any edo paper flying around? No? So then edo had no effect on anything that transpired there as if it did we would see the typical papers... A noob mistake so i'll let it slide U_U Do you not get it? Domu already tanks the brunt force of the attack any spiraling shock-waves are then cushioned by the threads leaving him unharmed I really wish you had a better grasp on physics.

Cool, won't stop the hearts from getting plastered. Clearly the way the hearts move on their own is different to how Kakuzu manipulates the threads from his own body, and Kakuzu won't be doing that inside Dark Swamp. The only conceivable way they don't get plastered by this technique is if Kakuzu uses Domu while they're all still inside his body... and that's still debatable, because by feats FCD crushes Domu.

Bias...Bias everywhere :|

Again a statement without any explanation? Why would they get plastered if they are underground? A toads legs are to have him land more gracefully as they absorb some of the force from a fall. How so? By feats Domu tanked something moving at a much faster speed with a much faster rotation? Also the toads can't weigh that much if they were thrown miles by one measly ST. Physics again so if you get it thats good.

Chouji punched the hearts, which were away from Kakuzu's body, so I have no clue what your point is. No, the threads aren't protecting Kakuzu from Rasengan.

And they came away unharmed?

Your statements need more explanation my man a simple tip from a debater to a debater I have no ill will against you or anything I thank you for doing this with me.

Oh and one more thing about your oil scenario with the swamp. As i've stated they would never beat the fireball to the ground and if the oil is launched AFTER Kakuzu's katon explodes then it would merely enhance Kakuzu's attack and engulf all the clones as well. So yeah may want to rethink that

 

[KidGamer65]

My man you're slipping the actual definition is



Several is more then two.... sorry



So obviously he can't fire off like 20 but 7-10 is reasonable

Lol...7-10? Not happening.

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Also, I'm fine. Courtesy of Merriam Webster. Multiple is only more than one.

 

[Amaterasu]

Jiraiya wins med-diff. He is better at Taijutsu, for different hearts of Ninjutsu, he can easily dodge them with his SM, and with the help of Ma and Pa, Kakuzu would not get rid of summons, also how can he break through Frog Song without being revaged by Jiraiya ?

 

[Zexion~]

Lol...7-10? Not happening.

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Also, I'm fine. Courtesy of Merriam Webster. Multiple is only more than one.

lml ****ing google can't even get this right

Anyways

many, manifold

Which leads to

consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number

Either way saying that he can only use two because he's only used the jutsu against two enemies is biased limitations. If it were merely two he could use the definition would say two. But it says multiple meaning more than one. Not two, but more than one.

With that we know he can make multiple

We know that he has vast chakra reserves

If you're going to state that someone can make more clones then they have shown its only fair that Kakuzu can make more raiton gians then he has shown as both have not been definitely dis proven merely not shown

 

[KidGamer65]

lml ****ing google can't even get this right

Anyways




Which leads to

If that's what the context supports, but it doesn't. It has a picture of him using two bolts, and says that multiple bolts can be used.

Either way saying that he can only use two because he's only used the jutsu against two enemies is biased limitations. If it were merely two he could use the definition would say two. But it says multiple meaning more than one. Not two, but more than one.

That's just your assumption.

We know that he has vast chakra reserves

If you're going to state that someone can make more clones then they have shown its only fair that Kakuzu can make more raiton gians then he has shown as both have not been definitely dis proven merely not shown

Except Gian and Shadow Clones don't have the same workings, so no, we shouldn't even begin to start using the same logic.

 

[Zexion~]

If that's what the context supports, but it doesn't. It has a picture of him using two bolts, and says that multiple bolts can be used.

Need I get the shadow clone Data Book page and see how many clones are being summoned?

That's just your assumption.

As it is yours that he can only fire two.

Except Gian and Shadow Clones don't have the same workings, so no, we shouldn't even begin to start using the same logic.

How so? If you show a certain amount of shadow clones why cant we put a limit on the usage at that point? Its not like its that advanced shadow clone jutsu that Naruto has so they can't even use that many to begin with.

The databook literally states its converged lightning meaning he merely gathers electricity into a spear and launches it... Nothing states he can't gather it into three bolts lml it says he can increase the number of bolts to fire at will anyways

 

[Popeyes]

Base Jiraiya ain't shit. Kakuzu wins mid-high diff.

SM Jiraiya wins mid diff.

u dont know anything
Base Jiraiya can defeat him lol kakuzu isnt strong

 

[KidGamer65]

Need I get the shadow clone Data Book page and see how many clones are being summoned?

Considering Manga supports more than two being able to be made......

Don't bother.

As it is yours that he can only fire two.

Not really. That's all he's shown and there's no good reason to believe otherwise.

How so? If you show a certain amount of shadow clones why cant we put a limit on the usage at that point? Its not like its that advanced shadow clone jutsu that Naruto has so they can't even use that many to begin with.

Because, all Shadow Clones do are split the chakra of the user. Jutsu aren't like that. Can Naruto use a large ass Rasengan that he's never used in Base before just cause he has the chakra? Nope.

The databook literally states its converged lightning meaning he merely gathers electricity into a spear and launches it... Nothing states he can't gather it into three bolts lml it says he can increase the number of bolts to fire at will anyways

Yeah, he can increase it from one to two.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here? Kishi has shown that his scaling even when close up against tree's is rather normal

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Most highly evident in the Deidara V.S Sasuke battle

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. So your claiming that randomly kishi decides to blow up a tree for no reason? While keeping it constant throughout the whole fight

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Also not focusing on the landscape? The battle clearly shows devastation to the landscape more then I have seen in other battles

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Even utilizing the tree's

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and guess what? You can never even see the top of it even when Hidans climbing up. Literally Hidan was in a free fall and he couldn't even show signs of reaching the bottom

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These clearly aren't normal trees. It doesn't really matter if he jumped or not.

Also old Japanese style villages aren't really known for they're height but yeah i'm not saying Bunta isn't huge but these trees are gigantic as well. Also the size clearly varies most likely depending on the opponent they are summoned against

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Pain was not really that small compared to them ( Look at middle scan)

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So yeah just thought i'd throw that out there.

Please, just quit it with this argument. Bijuu sized trees, lmfao.

What are you saying? Jiraiya has never shown to spawn Swamp in multiple places ? The largest swamp he spawned was certainly long but its width wasn't all that impressive (Snakes aren't that wide) Hearts can easily avoid that when landing, that is if they are already out in the first place you've said that he uses it before Kakuzu even releases them? Make up your mind my man.

The AoE of Dark Swamp was large enough to sink two whole boss snakes, and Jiraiya used it when he was drugged. Its AoE should be much larger with him healthy. No, the hearts literally can't do anything to avoid it because they can't jump into the air from Kakuzu's back, sorry. I have no clue what you're talking about in regards to spawning multiple swamps. Whether he starts with the masks out or not they still get stuck in since the swamp spawns near instantly and the masks nor Kakuzu can react to it without some kind of visual or precognitive sensing, which they do not.

Biased statements I suppose. As we can see from this Kakashi perspective scan

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Kakuzu kicked him a good 10-15 meters away, now add the few more meters Hidan knocked Kakashi back

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Thats a good 20-23 meters in a second or two? Is it not?

Quick tip if you're going to make statements like "the wind mask never got far from Kakuzu" You should get some things to back it up

No, that isn't a very far distance away at all when you consider the amount of time the wind mask had to get back to Kakuzu's side.

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Up until the top panel of Shikamaru and Choji getting blown back.

What? Is this his combination moves aren't KKG they don't combine different chakra elements to form one thing they are literally two attacks used simultaneously. Besides you're proven wrong by the simple fact that two masks still remain even when the bodies fuse? If it were one attack there would merely be one mask firing one jutsu.

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<<<That argument is proven wrong in this scan

The bodies fuse to make sure that it will be a combo. Kakuzu's not one to leave variables in his actions.

That actually proves my argument becasue the masks were fused. Kakuzu can't use more than one seperate attack, and thae combo counts as one attack because the masks fused together, like I already said before.

Again where is your logic to back this up? Each heart has its own individual chakra tubes with chakra in them. All Kakuzu needs to do is activate the jutsu, which he can do easily. Only ones that need handsigns are Katon and Fuuton and notice its the same handsign

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-

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, pretty sure actually that his handsign is specific to his kinjutsu that allows him to use any offensive jutsu. That or its just a coincidence but still either way logic is on the side that he can use both at the same time.

...So you still can't prove that they can use more than one separate attack simultaneously or at different times. Combo counts as one attack because the masks fused.

Lml what? Again the fire ball needs to drop first. So he activates the katon then activates his domu which was quick enough to react to an ambush Raikiri

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Unfortunately it did him no good in that situation but still.

Lmfao, he doesn't need to have the sharingan or be a sensor to execute this strategy. Yomi Numa, immediately followed by spitting oil towards Kakuzu.

Again with the oil :| Honestly if you think firing oil from wherever these clones would be ( Which is strange in itself as J man has no knowledge on Kakuzu so he won't know that he'd need clones to balance out the numbers if the hearts are still in his back) is quicker then a 6 foot drop then even I can't help you.

How did you come to the conclusion of a 6 foot drop? Do you know how deep Yomi Numa is? Well I guess it doesn't really matter since it'll sink Kakuzu in all the way if he isn't fast enough about breaking himself out... which he won't be.

Also That's not stated at all? Is his body not a suitable platform? He would merely fire them out of his back and while already having momentum they would be able to glide at least the pathetic distance of the swamp? ( Width isn't that large)

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You can clearly see they are stretching/pushing with force out of his back. If they continue pushing once the thing restraining them (His back) is gone they would be shot like an elastic... Physics its a marvelous thing ( Even though i'm not all that suited in it i know this much)

Lol, I already addressed this. Where did the masks go after portruding out of Kakuzu's back? They landed on the ground.

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Do you want another example? Here you go [

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]-[

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].

They break free from Kakuzu's body, then they have to land on the ground. No, Kakuzu's back isn't a suitable platform.

But again he can use Zukkaku from his back no problem.

Cool beansandcornbread, bruh

So you're saying that before he even knows a katon attack is coming he's going to be spewing oil? Biased arguments as J man has no sensing abilities nor sharingan to read hand-signs.

Yomi Numa, immediately followed by spitting oil at Kakuzu, that's the strategy. No need for any type of precognitive sense.

My god this is getting rough. So you're saying the mask can't open within Kakuzu's back? Despite me already showing you scans of it doing so? Again you're making statements without logic why would he randomly put oil on Kakuzu when he's trapped in the swamp? Has he been shown to do so? Either way spewing oild<<<<A 6 foot drop of a fireball.

This is getting rough, I know. You can't counter any of my points, and this debate is getting rather redundant. Again with the super yang logic "why would he randomly put oil on Kakuzu when he's trapped in the swamp? Has he been shown to do so?". Come back with a better argument, then we can talk.

And for the last time Domu tanks any flames with or without oil. So this whole thing is incredibly pointless. As if the masks are in his body they are protected, if they are not they wouldn't be caught as J man cant use more then one swamp at a time.

Never used "more than one swamp at a time", a drugged Jiraiya's Swamp of the Underworld's AoE is large enough to trap Kakuzu and his hearts if he brings them out instantly. Gamayu Endan would make a fireball out of Kakuzu whether he has Domu active or not due to Bunta's gamayudan, and rasengan >>> Domu.

Wait wut? Bunta knows no flame techniques.. so summoning him merely make your strategy take even longer for no reason. It wasn't a full Bijuu size wise at least. And pathetic for a Bijuu my god my man have you read this arc? One fire ball did

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And Kakuzu was unharmed as were his masks.

I was referring to TOFB. Obviously summoning Bunta would take bit longer and I just merely added that in as another option, but it doesn't mean that it won't be effective when we account for its power and range.

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oil enhanced attack takes a steamy dump on that measely fire attack.

*sigh* You realize that would be 50%^The number of shadow clones right? Making three shadow clones means thet its already at 12% of original chakra. Well I believe thats how it works anyways. Again if the masks are still in his back when swamp is used they can glide out of Kakuzu and proceed to Gian the few clones Jiraiya can make. If not the the clones can't really do anything as one of the masks> Jiraiyas clones.

Jiraiya is a stamina beast so making several shadow clones won't faze him in the least bit. No, they can't glide out of Kakuzu. KidGamer already said what I was going to say in respect to Gian so I won't even bother with that.

I really hope you're not trying to say that a feeble katon will stop Kakuzu's that was able to do this

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if you truly believe that and I mean like deep in your soul... then there is something wrong here. It obviously won't... Or are you trying to say that a feeble Katon can stop a raiton on par with Raikiri in terms of power?

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Either way it comes off as you being a little embarrassed.

This is practically the only shred of validity you have here, so I'll be nice and cede on this point. That still doesn't matter at all though, when he isn't even going to get a chance to fire off Gian before he gets trapped in an adhesive dark swamp and drenched in oil.

I've seen the scan, We couldn't really tell if it enveloped him as he dug underground before it took full effect but again, the fact that it coldn't even melt one layer of snake skin completely ( It was still there) Doesn't give me all high expectations for this jutsu

Clearly Manda's body was fully enveloped if you take closer look at the top panel relative to the bottom panels. I'll post it again for convenience then give several screenshots.

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-> Clearly Manda was fully enveloped because his body's shedded skin didn't start appearing after the flames started dissipating.

Do you see any edo paper flying around? No? So then edo had no effect on anything that transpired there as if it did we would see the typical papers... A noob mistake so i'll let it slide U_U Do you not get it? Domu already tanks the brunt force of the attack any spiraling shock-waves are then cushioned by the threads leaving him unharmed I really wish you had a better grasp on physics.

Edo flakes aren't really relevant because Kakuzu has an unique body structure by virtue of having Earth Grudge Fear. That scan still doesn't prove anything because edos aren't revived with any organs or blood. I wish you understood that FCD>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Domu has shown to tank.

Bias...Bias everywhere :

Yeah... that's kind of what I expected coming into this debate.

Again a statement without any explanation? Why would they get plastered if they are underground? A toads legs are to have him land more gracefully as they absorb some of the force from a fall. How so? By feats Domu tanked something moving at a much faster speed with a much faster rotation? Also the toads can't weigh that much if they were thrown miles by one measly ST. Physics again so if you get it thats good.

They'd get plastered because the sheer force of the weight of a bijuu sized creature would crush the masks whose best feats are tanking some chuunin level multi sized fist. Having a much faster rotation=/=having more force with the attacks. Pain used a wider scale Shinra Tensei, its power varies by how much gravitational force Pain uses with it. It can be either a small ST that pushed Kakashi back or Chou Shinra Tensei which destroyed Konoha. The ST used against the toads was somewhere in the middle leaning towards CST clearly because it knocked back several bijuu sized creatures at a time. Clearly the toads weigh a ****ton if Bunta pushed down the damn Kyuubi.

And they came away unharmed?

Your statements need more explanation my man a simple tip from a debater to a debater I have no ill will against you or anything I thank you for doing this with me.

They did come away unharmed, but they won't come away unharmed against an attack that's leagues above Chouji's attack. Your original point was that Chouji should have injured Kakuzu somehow but Chouji punched the masks when they were actually away from Kakuzu's body so he couldn't have been injured.

Well, If we can have a somewhat civilized discussion like this I won't have to act all sarcastic towards you either, and we can actually debate without having to throw petty jabs around, so +rep for at least being civil. No problem, though we probably aren't going to agree on anything.

Oh and one more thing about your oil scenario with the swamp. As i've stated they would never beat the fireball to the ground and if the oil is launched AFTER Kakuzu's katon explodes then it would merely enhance Kakuzu's attack and engulf all the clones as well. So yeah may want to rethink that

Already explained how Jiraiya would immediatly follow up Yomi Numa with

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, and Kakuzu can't really react.

 

[MasqueradeNX]

Jiraiya Takes both low-mid diff