KCM Minato vs DSM Kabuto

[Brother Numpsay]

I didn't want an in depth explanation on how RNY functions but my point is accessing bijuu chakra modes increase speed/reactions. The stronger the mode, the better this increase is. Increase in chakra flow generally correlates with an increase in speed/reactions as was the case when Deidara upgraded his chakra, it increased his speed/reaction (

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). This makes sense because the more flow of chakra, the more chakra flows in the brain which allows the brain to process information faster.

You have no evidence that Buijuu chakra increasing reactions. Otherwise Obito didn't need Sharingan/Renne for his Paths. Just rely on Buijuu chakra for reaction feats. P.S. you took that scan of out context. The context of chakra level Deidara was talking about is the explosive power he is going to start out with

Well if we are talking about

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, Naruto easily blocked that and clashed attacks. He didn't show signs of almost not being able to react unlike against Madara where he couldn't properly defend himself and instead opted to block in a haphazard manner instead of actively clash hand to hand like KCM Naruto did with Edo Han.

SM Naruto easily blocked Madara too. The point of that scan was to prove that even though KCM>>>Han, he still needed to block an block/react to an attack that he would easily run pass him. Since your arguing SM Naruto if "woulda" "shoulda" done to Blind Madara he would of "done it". Thus isn't a fair argument your displaying, if I were to use a same example here.

What feats are these? Pretty sure that the point of the new mode was so that Naruto can counter the other five bijuu or else he'd get decimated so if KCM Naruto had this power, they were never in dangerous which contradicts with the manga since if it wasn't for Naruto's BM, it would have been Gai accessing 8th gate to deflect these TBBs. Also just because KCM Naruto moves faster than TBB doesn't mean he can deflect it through sheer speed because he may not have the momentum to do so. Momentum = Mass X Velocity so KCM Naruto needs a much higher velocity to compensate for his smaller mass in comparison to a TBB. Kakashi and Gai's hype>>>Tsunade's considering both are faster than her.

Naruto pushed Bee's TBB to break out of barrier. He had the strength to repel a TBB. The reason why Naruto was able to do five this time was because now Kurama is physically helping, so no contradictions here or my point. Nothing supports BM moving faster then he could already move.

Kisame's method of absorbing was to swing his blade as Bee comes to him which was successful when Bee was in V1 but when Bee was in V2, Kisame couldn't swing in time, nor could he physically outmanoeuvre and had to resort to bracing himself with his sword sticking in front of him.

That was Kisame's choice and he admitted wasn't his best choice. Either way I rather drop this point, since Bee's power up =/= Naruto power up. Bee has more tail power up against Kisame while Naruto has full power tails chakra. A new KCM gown doesn't mean he had more tails to access to.

I know but to what extent do sensory abilities give better reaction? I know for a fact they aren't as great as you claim them to be.

How am I suppose to answer this question? Kishimoto gave us feats of each sensory type and what they are capable of. And Im strictly going by what they are capable of.

Lmao, when one uses shadow clone jutsu, it replicates everything the user has so Minato can have thousands of kunai. These snakes aren't doing squat especially if Minato marks the ground. With so many clones around, Kabuto will be forced to spam Muki Tensei to keep up with all the tags on the battlefield giving Minato an opening to hit him with bijuu rasengan which will be easy as Kabuto won't be able to put any offensive pressure on Minato if he is this focussed on manipulating the tags.

Clones go "poof" so does the things it replicates. Nothing is stopping Kabuto to use to whole cave to crush the clones. So either method is good here. But good point of using the ground, even though it isn't going to help much.

I never saw Minato used a buijuu rasengan so I have no reason for him to start the battle with it. And by the time he does Kabuto should of adjust to his speed.

Speed adaptation and the fact the Muki Tensei can ruin Minato's footing, Kabuto will never be in a position where he get overwhelmed. Especially when Den'ien'ei can be use for multi tasking.

No, Minato can still teleport for a few seconds until white rage's effects diminish. Not to mention that in a cave without much distance, Minato's clones will be all around the cave so Kabuto can't hide and can't run due to Minato's superior speed and numbers. Also white rage won't effect Minato as badly as it effected Sasuke due to KCM granting Minato greater resilience.

@Bold: Is there evidence for that claim you made?

Addressed the clone situation.

@Underline: resilience isn't going to block light. resilience isn't going to block the effect of sound. resilience isn't going to block the effects of vibration. Resilience has no function under these conditions.

The location is a cave so the battlefield isn't very big and will be flooded with clones, all of whom can use FTG and have faster shunshin than Kabuto. Kabuto was being pressured by Itachi and Sasuke, Minato's clone army does him much much worse.

Address above.

Sure though Minato and his clones keep on bombarding him with bijuu rasengan and retagging him. Sooner than later, Kabuto won't even be able to use sage mode properly while having to constantly use oral rebirth.

Address above.

Bijuu Rasengan and COR are going to do a shit load of damage, leaving Kabuto vulnerable for even more attacks while he can't go on the offensive due to desperately clinging to life.

Again non of these moves can move at the same speed as the caster, and Muki Tensei is also going to make sure of it, since its all about the way they move, which Muki Tensei can disrupt.

Assuming he can use whatever Nenkin no Yoroi is in time.

Minato wins mid difficulty at best.

Of course he can. All of Minato's attack builds chakra in his hand. If he senses danger in the attack he will be prepared for it.

Muki Tensei screws up all of Minato strategy, blitzing, and attack movement. Minato can't plant any Kunai place, can get eaten, crushed (clones) and move to Kabuto's desired location, even if printing the ground.

No counter to White Rage: Which leaves options to end the match. Bones forest. Earth Dome (when FTG is taken care of). Chakra scalpel. White Snake vapor poison, etc.

Not to mention for further support, can use Shadow Clone. Since DB stated he can use all of Orochimaru's ability. So he is never at a disadvantage. While Mianto will always be at a disadvantage

 

[Valhorus]

Minato mid diff . The man with the WC avatar needs to go there .

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Minato mid diff . The man with the WC avatar needs to go there .

*Goes there*

There.

 

[Icelerate]

You have no evidence that Buijuu chakra increasing reactions. Otherwise Obito didn't need Sharingan/Renne for his Paths. Just rely on Buijuu chakra for reaction feats. P.S. you took that scan of out context. The context of chakra level Deidara was talking about is the explosive power he is going to start out with

I've provided plenty of evidence that bijuu chakra increases reaction and there are so many examples such as Gaara becoming faster with Shukaku chakra even though he's slow and was getting blitzed by Sasuke before. Naruto started manhandling 2 tomoe Sasuke even though prior to that, in base Naruto never stood a chance. You also didn't respond to my claim that bijuu chakra would increase chakra flow to the brain, giving the brain more energy which would allow it to process information faster. Obito never needed to put sharingan and Rinnegan, it was done automatically because Obito, the controller of the six paths, had the two eyes. Furthermore, the sharingan precog and linked vision was an added bonus on top of the bijuu chakra. No, you're taking Deidara's statement out of context, not me. Deidara is saying I need to keep up with his movements because he is having trouble doing so. Afterwards, Deidara says that he escaped the explosion because the C1 chakra helped him escape (

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). Escaping a bomb blast means to get out of its damage radius which requires speed so the C1 chakra that he was working with increased his speed/reactions to do so. Furthermore, Deidara had

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so you saying he was talking about using C1 bombs is wrong.

SM Naruto easily blocked Madara too. The point of that scan was to prove that even though KCM>>>Han, he still needed to block an block/react to an attack that he would easily run pass him. Since your arguing SM Naruto if "woulda" "shoulda" done to Blind Madara he would of "done it". Thus isn't a fair argument your displaying, if I were to use a same example here.

Naruto did not easily block Madara. He got sent flying and didn't have the time to brace himself. Against Han, he managed to even land a punch to counter Han's own whereas against Madara, he couldn't go on the offensive.

Naruto pushed Bee's TBB to break out of barrier. He had the strength to repel a TBB. The reason why Naruto was able to do five this time was because now Kurama is physically helping, so no contradictions here or my point. Nothing supports BM moving faster then he could already move.

Pushing something with physical strength isn't the same as deflecting something without making contact with it. Bee's TBB was initially stationary with no momentum, just weight. If Kurama was physically helping, it improved Naruto's physical abilities which includes raw speed so once again, you prove my point.

That was Kisame's choice and he admitted wasn't his best choice. Either way I rather drop this point, since Bee's power up =/= Naruto power up. Bee has more tail power up against Kisame while Naruto has full power tails chakra. A new KCM gown doesn't mean he had more tails to access to.

The databook entry you posted says that Kurama mode gives access to Naruto's full bijuu powers so he does get a powerup that gives him access to Kurama's full power which means more speed as the more bijuu power you have, the faster you get.

How am I suppose to answer this question? Kishimoto gave us feats of each sensory type and what they are capable of. And Im strictly going by what they are capable of.

No you are giving other senjutsu user's feats to make Kabuto look better.

Clones go "poof" so does the things it replicates. Nothing is stopping Kabuto to use to whole cave to crush the clones. So either method is good here. But good point of using the ground, even though it isn't going to help much.

I never saw Minato used a buijuu rasengan so I have no reason for him to start the battle with it. And by the time he does Kabuto should of adjust to his speed.

Speed adaptation and the fact the Muki Tensei can ruin Minato's footing, Kabuto will never be in a position where he get overwhelmed. Especially when Den'ien'ei can be use for multi tasking.

Good point, but my point is that as long as the clones are present, the kunais will be everywhere. Kabuto can't distinguish real FTG kunais with fakes so he won't be able to get rid of them via the method you outlined. If Kabuto decides to crush Minato's clones with muki tensei, Minato's clones simply destroy any rock that Kabuto sends his way via rasengan variants or chakra arms.

This is very hypocritical coming from you but I agree. If Minato's rasengan fails to do much damage to Kabuto, which it will, he'll opt to use BR.

Minato can use chakra arms or have his clones use them to stabilize Minato's footing or Minato teleports to a more stable platform. I can say the same for Minato and to what extent can Den'ien'ei be used to multitask?

@Bold: Is there evidence for that claim you made?

Addressed the clone situation.

@Underline: resilience isn't going to block light. resilience isn't going to block the effect of sound. resilience isn't going to block the effects of vibration. Resilience has no function under these conditions.

FTG requires a mental reaction, not active movement and hardly any effort on Minato's part. Itachi was able to

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even though white rage caused him to

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due to the agonizing sound.

Resilience isn't going to block its effects but it gives Minato the ability to withstand some of it much like how Itachi's edo tensei body allowed him to function better than Sasuke in the same situation. It's about mental resilience allowing Minato to withstand the pain which makes sense because bijuu chakra has shown to heal injuries so it has some internal healing properties.

Again non of these moves can move at the same speed as the caster, and Muki Tensei is also going to make sure of it, since its all about the way they move, which Muki Tensei can disrupt.

These are all close ranged attacks, not ranged thrown attacks so the speed of these attacks does depend on the caster. Regardless, one of the Minato clones can charge at Kabuto, giving other clones an opening on the real Kabuto. Already countered Muki Tensei but it holds no offensive meaning and will only be a stalling tactic.

Of course he can. All of Minato's attack builds chakra in his hand. If he senses danger in the attack he will be prepared for it.

Muki Tensei screws up all of Minato strategy, blitzing, and attack movement. Minato can't plant any Kunai place, can get eaten, crushed (clones) and move to Kabuto's desired location, even if printing the ground.

No counter to White Rage: Which leaves options to end the match. Bones forest. Earth Dome (when FTG is taken care of). Chakra scalpel. White Snake vapor poison, etc.

Not to mention for further support, can use Shadow Clone. Since DB stated he can use all of Orochimaru's ability. So he is never at a disadvantage. While Mianto will always be at a disadvantage

Minato (

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)(

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) can quickly prep rasengan variants but I agree that the bijuu dama takes time but with rasengan to keep Kabuto busy, Minato can surely prep it and then land the hit in conjuction with other clones. I've already dealt with most of this but a COR barrage should be able to overwhelm Kabuto in this cave location and plow through everything in his arsenal.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I've provided plenty of evidence that bijuu chakra increases reaction and there are so many examples such as Gaara becoming faster with Shukaku chakra even though he's slow and was getting blitzed by Sasuke before. Naruto started manhandling 2 tomoe Sasuke even though prior to that, in base Naruto never stood a chance. You also didn't respond to my claim that bijuu chakra would increase chakra flow to the brain, giving the brain more energy which would allow it to process information faster. Obito never needed to put sharingan and Rinnegan, it was done automatically because Obito, the controller of the six paths, had the two eyes. Furthermore, the sharingan precog and linked vision was an added bonus on top of the bijuu chakra. No, you're taking Deidara's statement out of context, not me. Deidara is saying I need to keep up with his movements because he is having trouble doing so. Afterwards, Deidara says that he escaped the explosion because the C1 chakra helped him escape (

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). Escaping a bomb blast means to get out of its damage radius which requires speed so the C1 chakra that he was working with increased his speed/reactions to do so. Furthermore, Deidara had

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so you saying he was talking about using C1 bombs is wrong.

I see no "plenty of evidence" of your behalf. Just manga scans being taken out of context and massive reaching to prove your point. Just like now, using Naruto vs Sasuke and Gaara example. If I didn't respond to your claim that Buijuu chakra increases chakra flow into the brain is because I see no where in the manga that states this, so I have no reason to respond to what the manga never claimed. Sharingan needs to be put in manually, so I have no idea where you got the idea that its automatic. If manga supports that Buijuu chakra boost reaction time then you have an argument. Otherwise it isn't a "bonus" you are arguing, to try and prove your point.

Listen to your argument. Your are desperately trying to cling in to prove your argument. So ill ask you. What is C1? What is C2-4? If you know what C1 means then you would understand the context behind him saying he needs "c1 chakra". And according to you [

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]. Face it, your wrong here.

Naruto did not easily block Madara. He got sent flying and didn't have the time to brace himself. Against Han, he managed to even land a punch to counter Han's own whereas against Madara, he couldn't go on the offensive.

Naruto never land a punch to counter Han. Naruto was clearly pushed away (

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),

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,

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.

Pushing something with physical strength isn't the same as deflecting something without making contact with it. Bee's TBB was initially stationary with no momentum, just weight. If Kurama was physically helping, it improved Naruto's physical abilities which includes raw speed so once again, you prove my point.

Doesnt matter since Naruto needed the same amount of strength to push it with the same force the TBB needs to go to break through the barrier.

If that proves your point then that would mean Kurama Avatar can go the same speed as Naruto cloak Mode. If your using that logic.

The databook entry you posted says that Kurama mode gives access to Naruto's full bijuu powers so he does get a powerup that gives him access to Kurama's full power which means more speed as the more bijuu power you have, the faster you get.

How about reading the whole thing instead of cherry picking that would fit your argument. It states what this transformation allows. Meaning the power ups of KCM that wasn't allowed to be access to, is now allowed with Kurama Mode.

No you are giving other senjutsu user's feats to make Kabuto look better.

I am? So this argument of logical transfer can only fit your arguments. And characters you would argue with such as Hashirama. Ok.

Good point, but my point is that as long as the clones are present, the kunais will be everywhere. Kabuto can't distinguish real FTG kunais with fakes so he won't be able to get rid of them via the method you outlined. If Kabuto decides to crush Minato's clones with muki tensei, Minato's clones simply destroy any rock that Kabuto sends his way via rasengan variants or chakra arms.

This is very hypocritical coming from you but I agree. If Minato's rasengan fails to do much damage to Kabuto, which it will, he'll opt to use BR.

Minato can use chakra arms or have his clones use them to stabilize Minato's footing or Minato teleports to a more stable platform. I can say the same for Minato and to what extent can Den'ien'ei be used to multitask?

We still dont know how Kunai's work in shadow clones, since shadow shiruken clone ability was created for a purpose (when Hiruzen can use both abilities). For all we know the items the caster is wielding is evenly distributed with clones, which makes much more sense here. Either way I dont see how my premise wouldnt work. Since he has snakes roaming plus Muki Tensei to kill all the clones, which will distinguish and not waste time eating a "clone version" (if thats true).

Rasengan isn't doing any significant damage to the cave [

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] so at best it will make multiple pot holes. Not only is the attack/movement pattern unpredictable, but my whole premise isn't just talking about the spikes in the cave, but the whole ceiling itself comes down and crushes the clones.

@Bold D'N'A can be used like how Sakon and Ukon worked together:
1. Protect the body from all angles.

2. Kabuto and DNA can simultaneously perform jutsus, working like two people. Kabuto does this while the DNA does that.

Basically twice the work is used here.

FTG requires a mental reaction, not active movement and hardly any effort on Minato's part. Itachi was able to

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even though white rage caused him to

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due to the agonizing sound.

Ok. White Rage is only a factor when Kabuto takes care of FTG tags.

Resilience isn't going to block its effects but it gives Minato the ability to withstand some of it much like how Itachi's edo tensei body allowed him to function better than Sasuke in the same situation. It's about mental resilience allowing Minato to withstand the pain which makes sense because bijuu chakra has shown to heal injuries so it has some internal healing properties.

Your argument would make sense if 1.) Edo Tensei and KCM share the same functionality.
2.) White Rage needs to be the opponent to heal after the attack.

The thing is KCM is vulnerable to internal attacks (as Hinata proved) . So no arguments can be made regardless

These are all close ranged attacks, not ranged thrown attacks so the speed of these attacks does depend on the caster. Regardless, one of the Minato clones can charge at Kabuto, giving other clones an opening on the real Kabuto. Already countered Muki Tensei but it holds no offensive meaning and will only be a stalling tactic.

Doesn't mater if its close range, since he still has to make it first before it can be used. Muki Tensei does hold offense to clones since they go down by direct hits. So it can work perfectly in any dangerous situation and not just stalling.

Minato (

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)(

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) can quickly prep rasengan variants but I agree that the bijuu dama takes time but with rasengan to keep Kabuto busy, Minato can surely prep it and then land the hit in conjuction with other clones. I've already dealt with most of this but a COR barrage should be able to overwhelm Kabuto in this cave location and plow through everything in his arsenal.

Again notice that this isn't Minato's full speed so not saying he can't form Rasegan fast, but its no where near his body flicker speed.

@Bold Actually this is the first time I actually pointed out Kabuto's arsenal here, other then his main Sage Art attacks. So I fail to see where you counter his whole arsenal that was never addressed.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Minato low difficulty. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

So basically you are still arguing that moving faster will always have a better perception to what you can react to. Despite that I showed a scan that that's not always true via no Sharingan Kid Kakashi (or even current).

Chidori and Raikiri are literally the ONLY cases of said thing in the manga. Feats for Naruto and everyone else who has ever gotten a boost from some external type of chakra agrees that this isn't the case for them. Base Naruto has no reaction feats that put him on Ay's level, or anywhere near it. I have no reason to believe that Base Naruto=KCM Naruto in reaction speed. Doesn't even begin to make sense.

Not to mention Kakashi's problem with Chidori/Raikiri had nothing to do with reaction. He ran so fast, that it created a tunnel vision effect, thus he couldn't perceive counter attacks. Nothing to do with reaction speed. So that obliterates your only point on the matter. Perception is NOT reaction.

Regardless of your argument or whatever we agree or disagree, I can use both. If I were to agree with you then Ill just add the transfer logic like you did for Hashirama, that enables him to progress, react/tag Juubito.

Hashirama only gets said feat because he's already on the necessary reaction speed level.

- Kabuto reacts to Arrow, which is the speed between V1 and V2 Ay. Meaning he can move in that speed, since his perception movement is that fast.

- That speed is around Madara's speed (according to you believing his speed), which you agree can progress his level to tag Juubito with the Sharingan.

Based on what exactly? Madara's speed being somewhere between V1 and V2 Ay's means nothing when that is a LARGE gap. A very very large gap. Both of them being in between doesn't even begin to mean that Madara=Kabuto in speed.

Not to mention someone's reaction speed is typically above their movement speed. Kabuto reacting as fast as Madara can move doesn't mean anything, since his reaction speed would need to be on his level to even begin thinking about giving his feat to Kabuto.

Kabuto's reaction speed=2
Madara's movement speed=2
Madara's reaction speed=10

Lol No point.

He knew it was too late in this scene, I didn't saw he can react at any given time, regardless if he changed his mind or not.

B hadn't even moved an inch. He knew he wouldn't be able to absorb it from the moment he saw it, but got blitzed instead.

Im arguing against the claim on why its wrong, you asking me to proof a claim yall made.

Huh? I said you have no proof that their modes DIDN'T increase their reaction speed. That's what you claimed.

Didn't say overall power. Yall just hyping up that it has to mean "speed" is a power up. BM Naruto has not shown moving faster then your couldnt already move

If a cloak gets stronger overall, speed is included. Hence the term overall. Unless you think Naruto's cloak is weaker, then he got faster too. Simple as that. The other parts have been replied to, by me and Icelerate.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Chidori and Raikiri are literally the ONLY cases of said thing in the manga. Feats for Naruto and everyone else who has ever gotten a boost from some external type of chakra agrees that this isn't the case for them. Base Naruto has no reaction feats that put him on Ay's level, or anywhere near it. I have no reason to believe that Base Naruto=KCM Naruto in reaction speed. Doesn't even begin to make sense.

I have no reason to believe Base Naruto = KCM Naruto either since KCM Naruto actually has a form of sensing to support his reaction other then Base Naruto.

Not to mention Kakashi's problem with Chidori/Raikiri had nothing to do with reaction. He ran so fast, that it created a tunnel vision effect, thus he couldn't perceive counter attacks. Nothing to do with reaction speed. So that obliterates your only point on the matter. Perception is NOT reaction.

Um except they coordinate with each other. You need a form perception in order for yourself to react to it. Its basic cause and effect.

Hashirama only gets said feat because he's already on the necessary reaction speed level.

Not by your premise he isn't. He is no where near as fast as Naruto on top of the fact that SM boost his perception.
And if you are saying so what: You are outright admitted that Base Hashirama = everything EMS Uchiha's can do. Since Hashirama does not rely on the Sharingan's precog to adapt and eventually tag Juubito, he needs his own perception keen senses to develop and tag Juubito too.

Based on what exactly? Madara's speed being somewhere between V1 and V2 Ay's means nothing when that is a LARGE gap. A very very large gap. Both of them being in between doesn't even begin to mean that Madara=Kabuto in speed.

Im going by your premise. Your basing that Base Hashirama can keep up with EMS Madara. Therefore his speed level and perception can do what Madara can do.

Not to mention someone's reaction speed is typically above their movement speed. Kabuto reacting as fast as Madara can move doesn't mean anything, since his reaction speed would need to be on his level to even begin thinking about giving his feat to Kabuto.

Kabuto's reaction speed=2
Madara's movement speed=2
Madara's reaction speed=10

Lol No point.

Base on what is EMS Madara's reaction speed superior to SM Kabuto?

B hadn't even moved an inch. He knew he wouldn't be able to absorb it from the moment he saw it, but got blitzed instead.

NOt going waste time against BEe anymore we can discussion this part all day. At the end of it this example isnt close to Naruto's power up version.

Huh? I said you have no proof that their modes DIDN'T increase their reaction speed. That's what you claimed.

Ok, ill prove negative?

If a cloak gets stronger overall, speed is included. Hence the term overall. Unless you think Naruto's cloak is weaker, then he got faster too. Simple as that. The other parts have been replied to, by me and Icelerate.

Cloak doesn't get stronger. The new gown signifies that Naruto and Kurama has synced, thus can use BM and BM abilities. Simple as that. You want me to continue believing in a hype that we fans made up cause it made sense during the time. Which was debunked by DB. So its hype vs the source.

 

[KidGamer65]

I have no reason to believe Base Naruto = KCM Naruto either since KCM Naruto actually has a form of sensing to support his reaction other then Base Naruto.

Doesn't change my point. Having negative emotions sensing isn't going to give such a big boost to his reaction speed that he'll go from having reaction speed on par with Sasuke's (who was blitzed even w/ Sharingan) to having reaction speed on par with the guy who blitzed him.

Doesn't change the fact with B either. V1 and V2 B's overall speed feats shit on Base B's.....but somehow, we are claiming that their reaction speed doesn't go up. Makes zero sense.

Um except they coordinate with each other. You need a form perception in order for yourself to react to it. Its basic cause and effect.

Does that mean that Perception is reaction? Does that mean that Kakashi's problem lies with his own speed? No, and no. Kakashi couldn't react because he couldn't perceive what was coming, not because he was too slow to react.

You have no point. I suggest we drop it.

Not by your premise he isn't. He is no where near as fast as Naruto on top of the fact that SM boost his perception.

Movement speed. Not reaction speed. Sasuke is not as fast as Naruto on foot, yet they both reacted to Juubito at the same exact time, and struck at the same exact speed.

You are outright admitted that Base Hashirama = everything EMS Uchiha's can do.

I said Base Hashirama is on par with Madara when it comes to reaction speed. That's it.

Since Hashirama does not rely on the Sharingan's precog to adapt and eventually tag Juubito, he needs his own perception keen senses to develop and tag Juubito too.

That's the only part where you might have a point.

Im going by your premise. Your basing that Base Hashirama can keep up with EMS Madara. Therefore his speed level and perception can do what Madara can do.

Uh-huh. Doesn't even begin to prove your point though.

Base on what is EMS Madara's reaction speed superior to SM Kabuto?

Based on Sasuke's reaction feats in the war. Based on Kabuto having no reaction feat that puts him on the level of EMS Madara, something Icelerate brought up, but never got a reply to. Based on Sasuke tagging Juubito w/ his EMS and his reaction speed.

Based on him moving as fast as Kabuto can react. Based on reaction speed being faster than a person's normal speed.

Ok, ill prove negative?

You better prove your claim, since you made it. Burden of proof buddy.

Cloak doesn't get stronger.

Based on nothing. Naruto can do things in that mode he couldn't do in the previous mode a second ago. It's stronger. No reason to believe otherwise.

The new gown signifies that Naruto and Kurama has synced,

Based on nothing, nor does it prove that the cloak isn't stronger. If them syncing was the cause, then Minato would have the same exact cloak. Wrong again.

thus can use BM and BM abilities. Simple as that. You want me to continue believing in a hype that we fans made up cause it made sense during the time. Which was debunked by DB. So its hype vs the source.

Based on nothing, and DB never said anything to debunk the cloak being stronger.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Doesn't change my point. Having negative emotions sensing isn't going to give such a big boost to his reaction speed that he'll go from having reaction speed on par with Sasuke's (who was blitzed even w/ Sharingan) to having reaction speed on par with the guy who blitzed him.

Your analogy is all over the place, since I dont under stand who is the person you are using as an example. What made his reaction speed on par with Sasuke, that Sasuke got blitz to. And who have reaction speed on par with the guy who blitz him.

Doesn't change the fact with B either. V1 and V2 B's overall speed feats shit on Base B's.....but somehow, we are claiming that their reaction speed doesn't go up. Makes zero sense.

Actually Base Bee has better feats since no where has V1 and V2, close the gap distance to where he appear to facing Team Taka, to a far away location, that needed Karin to sense him. But logically yes I agree. Reaction speed nope. No evidence

Does that mean that Perception is reaction? Does that mean that Kakashi's problem lies with his own speed? No, and no. Kakashi couldn't react because he couldn't perceive what was coming, not because he was too slow to react.

You have no point. I suggest we drop it.

Ok.

Movement speed. Not reaction speed. Sasuke is not as fast as Naruto on foot, yet they both reacted to Juubito at the same exact time, and struck at the same exact speed.

So moving faster to gain better perception has nothing to do with Tagging Obito other wise Sasuke shouldn't have replicated the same feat.

I said Base Hashirama is on par with Madara when it comes to reaction speed. That's it.


That's the only part where you might have a point.

Ok and how does it proves me "maybe".

Uh-huh. Doesn't even begin to prove your point though.

It does because both use different methods to react to one another. And both need different methods to tag Juubito.

Based on Sasuke's reaction feats in the war. Based on Kabuto having no reaction feat that puts him on the level of EMS Madara, something Icelerate brought up, but never got a reply to. Based on Sasuke tagging Juubito w/ his EMS and his reaction speed.

Sasuke actually has feats to progress his eyes to tag Juubito. That isn't close to prove Madara eyes automatically does this.

Kabuto feats reacted to Susanoo arrow, something better then anything Madara has react to.

Icelerate brought nothing on the table that shows feats the EMS Madara reacted to something superior then the speed of Susanoo arrow.

Based on him moving as fast as Kabuto can react. Based on reaction speed being faster than a person's normal speed.

You already argue that moving fast has nothing to do with reaction speed. I guess only if it fits your argument.

You better prove your claim, since you made it. Burden of proof buddy.

Nice fallacy. The burden of proof is on the individual proposing existence, not the one questioning existence.

Im the one questioning if cause claim exist.

Based on nothing. Naruto can do things in that mode he couldn't do in the previous mode a second ago. It's stronger. No reason to believe otherwise.

Base on DB. @Bold exactly my point, which has nothing to do with things he can could do previously gets another power boost.

The hype is debunked and all you have clinging is made up hype.

Based on nothing, nor does it prove that the cloak isn't stronger. If them syncing was the cause, then Minato would have the same exact cloak. Wrong again.

Actually DB is a source to where we are both in a disagreement on the interpretation. You have nothing but hype to misread and support your claim while I have DB for the correct interpretation on how to view the cloak.

Wrong, Minato using Kurama doesn't mean their hearts sync with Kurama.

Based on nothing, and DB never said anything to debunk the cloak being stronger.

The very fact that it didn't prove my point. And prove that Im interpreting it right.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your analogy is all over the place, since I dont under stand who is the person you are using as an example. What made his reaction speed on par with Sasuke, that Sasuke got blitz to. And who have reaction speed on par with the guy who blitz him

Naruto, Ay, and Sasuke. That's who I'm talking about. Naruto and Sasuke are on par in Base. Ay was too fast for Sasuke to follow. Thus the same thing should happen to Naruto, but it doesn't. Because KCM>>>

Actually Base Bee has better feats since no where has V1 and V2, close the gap distance to where he appear to facing Team Taka, to a far away location, that needed Karin to sense him. But logically yes I agree. Reaction speed nope. No evidence

Dafuq? Base B crossed that distance, and then V1 B crossed that same distance again with an attack implicated to be faster, in a factually faster state. Doesn't change the fact that you have no positive evidence for the claim "Boost in speed=/=Boost in reaction speed".

So moving faster to gain better perception has nothing to do with Tagging Obito other wise Sasuke shouldn't have replicated the same feat.

Obviously not since Sasuke nor Naruto moved when they tagged Juubito.

Ok and how does it proves me "maybe".

I'll give you that point.

It does because both use different methods to react to one another. And both need different methods to tag Juubito.

I'm talking about your overall point, the main thing the argument is about. Not your point with Hashirama.

Sasuke actually has feats to progress his eyes to tag Juubito. That isn't close to prove Madara eyes automatically does this.

Never said it was, nor does it matter. Sasuke still had to be fast enough even w/ precognition.

Kabuto feats reacted to Susanoo arrow, something better then anything Madara has react to.

You already argue that moving fast has nothing to do with reaction speed. I guess only if it fits your argument.

Never said that. I said that your reaction speed is faster than your movement speed. Lol. Don't try to twist my words around. That's pathetic. If Kabuto's reaction speed is only on par with Madara's movement speed, then Madara's reaction speed is above Kabuto's reaction speed. That simple.

Nice fallacy. The burden of proof is on the individual proposing existence, not the one questioning existence.

You proposed that KCM doesn't increase Naruto's reaction speed. So you better prove that it doesn't.

Im the one questioning if cause claim exist.

Not really. You outright claimed that it didn't.

Base on DB.

DB says nothing that proves your point.

@Bold exactly my point, which has nothing to do with things he can could do previously gets another power boost.

Yes, that is exactly what that means. If the new cloak is letting him do new things, that means the new cloak is stronger than the old cloak. It's really that simple.

The hype is debunked and all you have clinging is made up hype.

There is no made up hype. You are trying to get something out of the DB's article that isn't there and it's getting pretty damn pathetic. Like I said to Gold Lightning in the other thread. Naruto got hype for his speed despite already showing off his max speed in KCM against Kisame, and dodging Ay's top speed, meaning he got faster, otherwise there would be no reason to hype him up.

Actually DB is a source to where we are both in a disagreement on the interpretation. You have nothing but hype to misread and support your claim while I have DB for the correct interpretation on how to view the cloak.

Wrong, Minato using Kurama doesn't mean their hearts sync with Kurama.

Now you are going to have to prove that this even happens let alone it being a cause for the change. So we've got you ignoring evidence, and making shit up to prove your claims?

The very fact that it didn't prove my point. And prove that Im interpreting it right.

All it said is that BM is the complete version of KCM, and that it lets Naruto use the Kurama Avatar. Where does that prove that the cloak Naruto has isn't stronger?

Oh wait. Nowhere.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Naruto, Ay, and Sasuke. That's who I'm talking about. Naruto and Sasuke are on par in Base. Ay was too fast for Sasuke to follow. Thus the same thing should happen to Naruto, but it doesn't. Because KCM>>>

Last time I check Base Sasuke blitz Base Naruto and schooled him along with Sai and Yamato. So they cant be the same in base.

Dafuq? Base B crossed that distance, and then V1 B crossed that same distance again with an attack implicated to be faster, in a factually faster state. Doesn't change the fact that you have no positive evidence for the claim "Boost in speed=/=Boost in reaction speed".

Agree with the Bee.

@Bold of course since its a negative claim.

Obviously not since Sasuke nor Naruto moved when they tagged Juubito.

Right so it was base on their perception. And speed gain, which = more perception gain had nothing to do with why Sasuke, whos inferior in speed, can reach a perception Naruto can.

I'll give you that point.

Clarify the point in a complete sentence so we are on the same page.

I'm talking about your overall point, the main thing the argument is about. Not your point with Hashirama.

Since Kabuto had better perception then a EMS user, that it is no different then your argument of transfers logic.

Hashirama perception can't be base on the Sharingan to eventually tag Juubito. He needs his senses to do that.

Your attempting to claim since Kabuto is no where near the speed of BM Naruto, his perception level already knocks Kabuto off his feet.

But at the same time so is Sasuke, Hashirama, and Madara. But you arent concluding this the very reason they can tag Juubito. They have their own methods.

So Sharingan users dont need Naruto's speed to reach the perception he can see. And as for Hashirama.

Never said it was, nor does it matter. Sasuke still had to be fast enough even w/ precognition.

And your claim is that Kabuto is not fast enough or at least not on Sasuke's level?

Never said that. I said that your reaction speed is faster than your movement speed. Lol. Don't try to twist my words around. That's pathetic. If Kabuto's reaction speed is only on par with Madara's movement speed, then Madara's reaction speed is above Kabuto's reaction speed. That simple.

And with that same logic Naruto's movement speed>>> Madara, Sasuke and Hashirama therefore his reaction speed is above theirs.

You proposed that KCM doesn't increase Naruto's reaction speed. So you better prove that it doesn't.

I stated his negative senses are the reason. Your the one that it isn't and it was the chakra itself. So you prove its the chakra itself that makes the reaction since Im wrong that it isn't the negative sense.

Not really. You outright claimed that it didn't.

Above.

DB says nothing that proves your point.

It does. Naruto couldnt do "this" and now he could do "that".

Yes, that is exactly what that means. If the new cloak is letting him do new things, that means the new cloak is stronger than the old cloak. It's really that simple.

Thats obivious. But what your trying to do is add hype that isn't included on what makes him stronger.

There is no made up hype. You are trying to get something out of the DB's article that isn't there and it's getting pretty damn pathetic. Like I said to Gold Lightning in the other thread. Naruto got hype for his speed despite already showing off his max speed in KCM against Kisame, and dodging Ay's top speed, meaning he got faster, otherwise there would be no reason to hype him up.

Um no its pathetic on your behalf, Naruto got hype in his speed to characters statement that has never seen him use his fastest speed yet. All of of his feats speed resembled the Yellow Flash or someones teacher.

Now you are going to have to prove that this even happens let alone it being a cause for the change. So we've got you ignoring evidence, and making shit up to prove your claims?

I did outside source Stated to be the "complete version" of Nine Tails Chakra Mode, accomplished when Naruto and Kurama sync their hearts. And gives a picture of Naruto gaining a new gown.

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.

All it said is that BM is the complete version of KCM, and that it lets Naruto use the Kurama Avatar. Where does that prove that the cloak Naruto has isn't stronger?

Oh wait. Nowhere.

If I wrote it that way for you to interpret that way sorry.

The cloak shows that Naruto and Kurama are connected. Or you can say perfect jin now.
So the things he couldnt do now he could do.
Since he could move fast with Kurama chakra already he doesnt go faster.
Naruto can now complete a TBB.
Kurama can now physically help Naruto.
Naruto can now do partial transformation like Bee with Hachibi.

 

[Haizaki]

Minato wins med diff.

 

[Icelerate]

I see no "plenty of evidence" of your behalf. Just manga scans being taken out of context and massive reaching to prove your point. Just like now, using Naruto vs Sasuke and Gaara example. If I didn't respond to your claim that Buijuu chakra increases chakra flow into the brain is because I see no where in the manga that states this, so I have no reason to respond to what the manga never claimed. Sharingan needs to be put in manually, so I have no idea where you got the idea that its automatic. If manga supports that Buijuu chakra boost reaction time then you have an argument. Otherwise it isn't a "bonus" you are arguing, to try and prove your point.

Obviously the more chakra you have in your body, the more chakra is flowing in it. Chakra is energy and when this chakra flows through the brain, what do you think happens? Sharingan will aid in reactions even further. This does not prove that bijuu chakra doesn't increase reactions. If chakra doesn't increase reactions, how come people low on chakra can't react as fast as someone with full chakra? How come after acquiring the Yin seal, Sakura is a lot faster than before?

Listen to your argument. Your are desperately trying to cling in to prove your argument. So ill ask you. What is C1? What is C2-4? If you know what C1 means then you would understand the context behind him saying he needs "c1 chakra". And according to you [

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]. Face it, your wrong here.

The second scan talks about Deidara using C2, not C2 chakra.

Naruto never land a punch to counter Han. Naruto was clearly pushed away (

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),

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,

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.

I was talking about

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here.

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he got hit by Han.

Doesnt matter since Naruto needed the same amount of strength to push it with the same force the TBB needs to go to break through the barrier.

If that proves your point then that would mean Kurama Avatar can go the same speed as Naruto cloak Mode. If your using that logic.

BM Naruto deflected the TBBs without making contact with them despite them already having momentum. KCM Naruto needed to carry one TBB to do so which didn't even have any momentum to start off with. He only gave it momentum over time whereas in BM, he did it instantly with pure speed.

How about reading the whole thing instead of cherry picking that would fit your argument. It states what this transformation allows. Meaning the power ups of KCM that wasn't allowed to be access to, is now allowed with Kurama Mode.

Okay so you've proven to me that Kurama mode allows access to other bijuu techs such as TBB. It doesn't state anywhere that speed didn't increase.

I am? So this argument of logical transfer can only fit your arguments. And characters you would argue with such as Hashirama. Ok.

Base Hashirama is already faster than SM Kabuto to begin with so him having senjutsu just puts him at an even higher level of speed/reactions.

We still dont know how Kunai's work in shadow clones, since shadow shiruken clone ability was created for a purpose (when Hiruzen can use both abilities). For all we know the items the caster is wielding is evenly distributed with clones, which makes much more sense here. Either way I dont see how my premise wouldnt work. Since he has snakes roaming plus Muki Tensei to kill all the clones, which will distinguish and not waste time eating a "clone version" (if thats true).

Naruto used a large number of shadow clones and

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so it is possible for Minato to do the same. The items that the caster is wielding are copied and not evenly distributed or else Zabuza's sword wouldn't have

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if what you were saying is true. Snakes are fodder for KCM Minato and so is Muki Tensei which can't get through Minato's cloak.

Rasengan isn't doing any significant damage to the cave [

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] so at best it will make multiple pot holes. Not only is the attack/movement pattern unpredictable, but my whole premise isn't just talking about the spikes in the cave, but the whole ceiling itself comes down and crushes the clones.

You took such a weak impact from an extremely tired Naruto whose rasengan failed to explode. An ordinary Senpou rasengan can devastate the environment to this extent (

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)(

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). A COR has the hype of hollowing out a mountain so any sealing sized rocks are utterly decimated. If Kabuto even uses the sealing, he'll just open up the cave allowing Minato to escape into the open field where Kabuto's chances of victory drop to zero.

@Bold D'N'A can be used like how Sakon and Ukon worked together:
1. Protect the body from all angles.

2. Kabuto and DNA can simultaneously perform jutsus, working like two people. Kabuto does this while the DNA does that.

Basically twice the work is used here.

Okay but I want you to demonstrate to me how effective this will work out to be and to show me manga scan of this.

Ok. White Rage is only a factor when Kabuto takes care of FTG tags.

Too bad he won't be able to as Minato can spread them again but there will be too many to take care of and Minato isn't going to just stand there allowing Kabuto to do this.

Your argument would make sense if 1.) Edo Tensei and KCM share the same functionality.
2.) White Rage needs to be the opponent to heal after the attack.

The thing is KCM is vulnerable to internal attacks (as Hinata proved) . So no arguments can be made regardless

1) They don't have to share the same functionality. I was making a point that someone with increased physical resilience managed to withstand it more easily than someone with regular physical resilience.

2) Even though gentle fist can affect Naruto, the pain caused by it would be more easily tolerable by Naruto compared to ordinary shinobi. Even without Kyuubi chakra at hand, Naruto's resilience from his Uzumaki heritage, willpower and innate Kyuubi healing allowed him to continue standing even after getting hit by 64 palms despite it doing a massive amount of damage. Compare this to Kidomaru who started falling right after getting hit by some gentle fist or Hinata, who was about to have a heart attack despite Neji not using 64 palms. With Kurama cloak, this physical resilience will be far greater.

Doesn't mater if its close range, since he still has to make it first before it can be used. Muki Tensei does hold offense to clones since they go down by direct hits. So it can work perfectly in any dangerous situation and not just stalling.

No, Muki Tensei's best feat is impaling Itachi. Sage mode Naruto, who has inferior durability compared to KCM cloak withstood falling into spikes with no damage.

Again notice that this isn't Minato's full speed so not saying he can't form Rasegan fast, but its no where near his body flicker speed.

@Bold Actually this is the first time I actually pointed out Kabuto's arsenal here, other then his main Sage Art attacks. So I fail to see where you counter his whole arsenal that was never addressed.

Minato's striking speed was so fast that he hit Obito with rasengan before the latter could turn intangible again. It was also fast enough to catch Ay off guard. Kabuto showed us that despite being able to react to Itachi and Sasuke's attacks, there were times where he was distracted and caught off guard so the same will happen here albiet much more easily.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Obviously the more chakra you have in your body, the more chakra is flowing in it. Chakra is energy and when this chakra flows through the brain, what do you think happens? Sharingan will aid in reactions even further. This does not prove that bijuu chakra doesn't increase reactions. If chakra doesn't increase reactions, how come people low on chakra can't react as fast as someone with full chakra? How come after acquiring the Yin seal, Sakura is a lot faster than before?

Hashirama has more chakra then Ay, does that make him faster, if he were to add more chakra to use body flicker.
Your getting reaction speed and movement speed mixed up in your premise. Manga makes it clear that using up chakra uses up stamina of course you can't show better reaction then someone whos still has more stamina.

The second scan talks about Deidara using C2, not C2 chakra.

... Just admit your reaching here.

I was talking about

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here.

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he got hit by Han.

He wasn't pushed away "before". Bee helped him escaped. HE got hit by a bubble and was vulnerable for the next bubble blast.

BM Naruto deflected the TBBs without making contact with them despite them already having momentum. KCM Naruto needed to carry one TBB to do so which didn't even have any momentum to start off with. He only gave it momentum over time whereas in BM, he did it instantly with pure speed.

Again it doesnt matter how he did it differently its not going to change the results of strength. KCM had the strength to break the barrier, which needed the momentum of a TBB to break through. The TBB needs to move with the same mommentum do the amount damage it did last time. KCM pushed with enough strength did it. Therefore he has the strength to knock a TBB with the amount force.

Lol BM did not knock the balls with sheer speed alone.

Okay so you've proven to me that Kurama mode allows access to other bijuu techs such as TBB. It doesn't state anywhere that speed didn't increase.

@Bold thats exactly my point

Base Hashirama is already faster than SM Kabuto to begin with so him having senjutsu just puts him at an even higher level of speed/reactions.

Wheres your evidence that Base Hashirama is faster then SM Kabuto?

P.S. his battle with Madara does not prove that he moves faster just because he get keep up with his movements.

Naruto used a large number of shadow clones and

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so it is possible for Minato to do the same. The items that the caster is wielding are copied and not evenly distributed or else Zabuza's sword wouldn't have

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if what you were saying is true. Snakes are fodder for KCM Minato and so is Muki Tensei which can't get through Minato's cloak.

I concede that argument, but my point still stands on how to handle them.

@Bold. Snakes arent fodder to Kunai's are just use for marking location. Muki Tensei doesn't have to get through Minato's cloak. Just needs to knock Clones away to go poof.

You took such a weak impact from an extremely tired Naruto whose rasengan failed to explode. An ordinary Senpou rasengan can devastate the environment to this extent (

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)(

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). A COR has the hype of hollowing out a mountain so any sealing sized rocks are utterly decimated. If Kabuto even uses the sealing, he'll just open up the cave allowing Minato to escape into the open field where Kabuto's chances of victory drop to zero.

That was the momentum of Juubito falling, that makes that impact. I have no idea what your talking about "sealing". Do you mean ceiling?

Kabuto isn't going to make him make a bigger form of Rasengan without him doing nothing.

Kabuto guaranteed lost would require out side of battle field tags. Anything else is still arguable.

Okay but I want you to demonstrate to me how effective this will work out to be and to show me manga scan of this.

[

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] demonstrates that, reaction can be protected from all angles, or DNA can perform at any part of the body.
[

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] demonstrates that combo supports each other.
[

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] Jutsus can support one another.

Kabuto can choose what to do while DNA helps. If he wants he can react and move while DNA fires a projectile( from the list of projectiles he has in his arsenal) or perform Muki Tensei or Dorō Dōmu, non projectile attacks.

If he wants Kabuto can do a justu, while DNA protects him in CQC (so does his snake stomach).

If he wants Kabuto and DNA and perform ninjutsu, either firing twice the projectile or mixing it up.

Too bad he won't be able to as Minato can spread them again but there will be too many to take care of and Minato isn't going to just stand there allowto to do this.

Too bad my premise shows effective, regardless if Minato is going to do something about it.

1) They don't have to share the same functionality. I was making a point that someone with increased physical resilience managed to withstand it more easily than someone with regular physical resilience.

2) Even though gentle fist can affect Naruto, the pain caused by it would be more easily tolerable by Naruto compared to ordinary shinobi. Even without Kyuubi chakra at hand, Naruto's resilience from his Uzumaki heritage, willpower and innate Kyuubi healing allowed him to continue standing even after getting hit by 64 palms despite it doing a massive amount of damage. Compare this to Kidomaru who started falling right after getting hit by some gentle fist or Hinata, who was about to have a heart attack despite Neji not using 64 palms. With Kurama cloak, this physical resilience will be far greater.

1. So Naruto withstand Juubi roar more then the SA? If we were to use that logic. IF you agree wheres the proof.

2. 64 palms didnt attack vital points so moot point like Neji did with Hinta and Kidomaru. Naruto canonically almost face death to chakra scalpel, which Tsunade saved.

No, Muki Tensei's best feat is impaling Itachi. Sage mode Naruto, who has inferior durability compared to KCM cloak withstood falling into spikes with no damage.

Ok? Doesn't prove that Minato clones wont go poof.

Minato's striking speed was so fast that he hit Obito with rasengan before the latter could turn intangible again. It was also fast enough to catch Ay off guard. Kabuto showed us that despite being able to react to Itachi and Sasuke's attacks, there were times where he was distracted and caught off guard so the same will happen here albiet much more easily.

Not disagreeing. Never said Kabuto would be untouchable. I been making arguments to prevent too much damage.

You also skip my @Bold point