KCM Minato vs DSM Kabuto

[KidGamer65]

No he said it has better and faster. And BM doesn't develop his reaction speed or sensing ability. SM Naruto handle it quite well, especially when he sense no threat to the attack. So nothing changes here.

Yeah, his sensing, as in Sage Sensing>Negative Emotions sensing. Don't know where you are getting SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed from, but it's not the Manga.

Lol, slap yourself for the bold. ANY kind of speed boost increases reaction speed. Unless you'd like to admit that:

Base B=V1=v2 B in reaction speed.

Base Naruto=BM Naruto in reaction speed.

The only thing it doesn't develop is sensing, but by developing speed, you can perceive faster things. It doesn't get any simpler than that. 3-Tomoe Sasuke and 3-Tomoe Madara are NOT equal in speed, yet 3-Tomoe Madara can follow and react to things faster than Sasuke can track, because Madara himself is faster.

JJ Madara and Rinnegan Madara are nowhere near each other in speed, yet JJ Madara can follow Eighth Gate Gai's movements with his eyes despite Rinnegan Madara being unable to do so.

BSM Naruto can sense Juubito, but it doesn't mean shit if he's not fast enough to react to him. BSM Naruto's reaction speed>>>>>>SM Naruto's reaction speed.

Naruto need SM boost since KM chakra sense is of no use, thus he replied on its senses alone to react to Juubi's movements. So no point here.

Lol, do you even know what you are talking about at this point? You need your form of precognition AND your own reaction speed to be able to react to something. 2-Tomoe Sasuke could perceive Lee's movements, but couldn't react. His eyes can follow but his body couldn't.

Good thing Jiraya fits that category compare to other SM users. And no Jiraya does not have senses.

You can use that logic since it was SM Naruto who did react to Juubito with the support of Kurama.

Lol, so SM Naruto=BSM Naruto in reaction speed? Is this what we are resorting to asserting now?

 

[Icelerate]

Mention Sai here is useless since he push Naruto first. Blocking the attack =/= barely reacting. That was Naruto's choice of defense mechanism. There was, as I repeat, no threat in his attack. So it doesn't matter how you want to interpret it, since Naruto outright stated that SM is superior then KCM reaction. We have witness KCM succeeding in reacting to faster techs but sometimes fail to react to one too. Nothing different here.

Okay but even if SM reaction is superior to KCM reaction, it doesn't mean it is comparable to BSM reaction. Naruto was pushed off his feet so I doubt he reacted properly. Madara is obviously a serious threat so why would he let Madara smack him around like that if he could have prevented that? You have a point with your last point, reaction and speed in this manga have their inconsistencies.

BM is no different then KCM physically boost either. I didn't want to argue against KG last time since it was getting no where. As for this case here, ill use it.

Yes it is considering the

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after showcasing his speed in BM even though he already showed his KCM speed. A superior chakra mode will have greater speed.

BM Naruto had gain its own "technique DB thread" and here is what was translated:

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It allows Naruto only to what was stated (which makes sense in the manga too as we witness)

How does this dispute my point? He uses more power in that mode which means access to more speed as speed is also part of power. For example, V2 Bee is faster than V1 Bee due to possessing more power.

So none of these examples doesn't disprove the claim of SM sense ability and some exaggerated boost only can.

None of your examples prove any SM user, in particular Kabuto, can progressively react to Juubito's speed.

You and KG are outright showing bias here when it comes to the transfer argument. SM Naruto can react to V2 if he wanted to, doesnt mean he has to be that fast as him to react.

Your logic is also saying that Base Hashirama can do whatever EMS Madara can do. So since EMS Madara needs to adapt his Juubito's speed like Sasuke (since same eyes). And Hashirama automatically does it in Base? Base Hashirama progressively sense/react and tag Juubito?

P.S. your scans shows nothing of Kabuto getting caught. The clone just blows into crows which means nothing.

V2 Ay is far inferior to Juubito and no he can't react to such speeds whenever he wants to or else he'd have effortlessly reacted to Madara unless you're implying Madara is faster than V2 Ay.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Not to mention no evidence that Minato can summon him. They're summoning requirements to summon specific toads, such as chakra. Jiraya used a Ritual + Senjutsu chakra he gather to summon them. So evidence shows that senjutsu chakra is at least required to summon this toad. And Minato is trash when it comes to gathering this energy.

Evidence is plenty. Minato knows senjutsu, Fukasaku knows Minato, Fukasaku is the only one who could have taught minato senjutsu and contract with Bunta is a contract with all toads. Not rocket science to know that minato can summon the toad that taught him sage jutsu. Fukasaku even mentions Naruto surpassing minato and Jiraya in senjutsu, Fukasaku has obviously seen both minato and Jirayas abilities before. Suggessting minato has summoned him. Then we have the stages of toads sage training. First is learning to become one with nature and stillness. The second is Frog Kata. The third is the Amphibian technique. Minato never summoned them because e amphibian technique didn't work with kurama inside Naruto. Minato wouldn't have had that problem, so by logic, Fukasaku would have done this without minato as well.

There is no ritual, that is a misconception. Shima with one hand summoned 5 toads and Naruto. No ritual required. He Draws a line under both his eyes using his own blood. Using this as a substitute for the "contract seal of blood,"** he can summon the legendary Two Great Toad Sages into his own body- Databook
It's just a substitute, That's why Jiraya did that, it wasn't a ritual, the databook makes no mention of any rituals being needed. It was just a substitute method that Jiraya used becuase he wanted to summon the toads directly onto his body, hence why he drew lines under each side of his eyes.

Amphibian technique is what Jiraya was performing, it's not that he couldn't summon them regularly.:

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Fukasaku uses the same hand signs to perform it on Naruto, so we know that's what Jiraya was doing:

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But Jiraya can't use sage mode efficiently without Fukasaku and Shima, so if he summoned them before using the amphibian technique and summoning them into his body, it would have been more inconvenient to perform in the midst of battle with them there. Amphibian technique can't be performed without these hand signs, either by the toad or the user.

You say evidence shows that senjutsu is required to summon the toads, yet Jiraya moved several times between chapter 375 page 2 to Page 13. How was he gathering sage chakra all that time when he moved so many times in between? Even if it was, minato can do that, but it's not required.

Really, minato is trash? Yet Jiraya can't even do it properly himself, unlike minato. Then add to the fact that the senjutsu chakra he gathers isn't perfectly balanced, unlike minato. In addition to that, based off the number of pages and manga panels, it took Jiraya longer to enter sage mode against pain, compared to the time minato started against Madara (it was like half the number of pages compared to Jiraya).if minato is trash, then Jiraya is garbage:

Spoiler

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[Brother Numpsay]

Okay but even if SM reaction is superior to KCM reaction, it doesn't mean it is comparable to BSM reaction. Naruto was pushed off his feet so I doubt he reacted properly. Madara is obviously a serious threat so why would he let Madara smack him around like that if he could have prevented that? You have a point with your last point, reaction and speed in this manga have their inconsistencies.

It has to be seen they both have the same reaction. BSM is using SM reaction. SM Naruto is using SM reaction. Kurama Mode give no boost in reaction, or anything that superior to SM. KM doesnt add sense boost to SM.

Madara had only his bare hands, why didn't KCM just dodge Edo Han, if he notice him from a mile away (expression)? If he thinks he can take it, then he thinks he can take it.

Yes it is considering the

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after showcasing his speed in BM even though he already showed his KCM speed. A superior chakra mode will have greater speed.

Theres no superior chakra mode. This is what we fans made up, since it didnt make sense to us. Naruto gets a new cloak, so it must mean "this and that". KCM is full power, he cant use any other tail level boost like other Jins. Which then DB explains what it means to have that new cloak.

How does this dispute my point? He uses more power in that mode which means access to more speed as speed is also part of power. For example, V2 Bee is faster than V1 Bee due to possessing more power.

Same as above. DB outright stated what this mode is capable of now, since KCM. Nothing else. We made up the extra boost since we thought it made sense at the time.

None of your examples prove any SM user, in particular Kabuto, can progressively react to Juubito's speed.

Im pretty sure it did. Not sure how we can keep dragging out this discussion (unless you debunks my claim that Kabuto is never going to react to Minato's speed.

V2 Ay is far inferior to Juubito and no he can't react to such speeds whenever he wants to or else he'd have effortlessly reacted to Madara unless you're implying Madara is faster than V2 Ay.

I dont need, I gave my reasons why he reacted to Madara a certain way. And I gave a reason why I stated he can react to V2 Ay, since SM Naruto out righted stated >> KCM in sensing/reaction.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Evidence is plenty. Minato knows senjutsu, Fukasaku knows Minato, Fukasaku is the only one who could have taught minato senjutsu and contract with Bunta is a contract with all toads. Not rocket science to know that minato can summon the toad that taught him sage jutsu. Fukasaku even mentions Naruto surpassing minato and Jiraya in senjutsu, Fukasaku has obviously seen both minato and Jirayas abilities before. Suggessting minato has summoned him. Then we have the stages of toads sage training. First is learning to become one with nature and stillness. The second is Frog Kata. The third is the Amphibian technique. Minato never summoned them because e amphibian technique didn't work with kurama inside Naruto. Minato wouldn't have had that problem, so by logic, Fukasaku would have done this without minato as well.

There is no ritual, that is a misconception. Shima with one hand summoned 5 toads and Naruto. No ritual required. He Draws a line under both his eyes using his own blood. Using this as a substitute for the "contract seal of blood,"** he can summon the legendary Two Great Toad Sages into his own body- Databook
It's just a substitute, That's why Jiraya did that, it wasn't a ritual, the databook makes no mention of any rituals being needed. It was just a substitute method that Jiraya used becuase he wanted to summon the toads directly onto his body, hence why he drew lines under each side of his eyes.

Amphibian technique is what Jiraya was performing, it's not that he couldn't summon them regularly.:

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Fukasaku uses the same hand signs to perform it on Naruto, so we know that's what Jiraya was doing:

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But Jiraya can't use sage mode efficiently without Fukasaku and Shima, so if he summoned them before using the amphibian technique and summoning them into his body, it would have been more inconvenient to perform in the midst of battle with them there. Amphibian technique can't be performed without these hand signs, either by the toad or the user.

You say evidence shows that senjutsu is required to summon the toads, yet Jiraya moved several times between chapter 375 page 2 to Page 13. How was he gathering sage chakra all that time when he moved so many times in between? Even if it was, minato can do that, but it's not required.

Really, minato is trash? Yet Jiraya can't even do it properly himself, unlike minato. Then add to the fact that the senjutsu chakra he gathers isn't perfectly balanced, unlike minato. In addition to that, based off the number of pages and manga panels, it took Jiraya longer to enter sage mode against pain, compared to the time minato started against Madara (it was like half the number of pages compared to Jiraya).if minato is trash, then Jiraya is garbage:

Spoiler

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Long as paragraph to things I already know in the manga. While having misconceptions to back up your point. Minato is going to need to stand still to gather senjutsu, fact. And in no time will Kabuto allow that. And Minato gather nature speed, has no feats to suggest he will do it in time.

 

[KidGamer65]

Theres no superior chakra mode. This is what we fans made up, since it didnt make sense to us. Naruto gets a new cloak, so it must mean "this and that". KCM is full power, he cant use any other tail level boost like other Jins. Which then DB explains what it means to have that new cloak.

And then we have this same old, ridiculous, nonsensical denial of the manga. Cloak looks different, thus it's a superior chakra mode since it's illogical to argue it's the same or weaker. It's obviously a superior chakra mode since Naruto needs no assistance to make moves he'd need chakra arms or clones to make in KCM. Saying it's the same makes ZERO sense.

Mini Bijuu Dama?

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FRS?

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Even makes two of them at once.

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Can use larger chakra arms.

Then there's the fact you blatantly ignored Icelerate's point on the matter.

But somehow it's the same exact power level of KCM. Our last argument went nowhere because you simply wouldn't accept the facts.

 

[Great Master Minato]

Guys...This Is Minato VS Kabuto...What's Naruto Doing Here? Lol

 

[Icelerate]

It has to be seen they both have the same reaction. BSM is using SM reaction. SM Naruto is using SM reaction. Kurama Mode give no boost in reaction, or anything that superior to SM. KM doesnt add sense boost to SM.

Yes Kurama mode does give boost in reaction or else Naruto wouldn't have been able to react to Ay in KCM unless you want to imply that base Naruto can react to Ay's top speed. It will stack up with SM reactions to give even better reactions.

Madara had only his bare hands, why didn't KCM just dodge Edo Han, if he notice him from a mile away (expression)? If he thinks he can take it, then he thinks he can take it.

Maybe because Naruto was up against multiple opponents whereas here he is only against one?

Theres no superior chakra mode. This is what we fans made up, since it didnt make sense to us. Naruto gets a new cloak, so it must mean "this and that". KCM is full power, he cant use any other tail level boost like other Jins. Which then DB explains what it means to have that new cloak.

The databook never claimed that KCM and BM are at the same speed level. Feats and manga hype imply BM>>>KCM in speed. Just because the databook claims Naruto gains access to TBB and other attacks doesn't mean he doesn't gain access to higher speed just because it wasn't explicitly said in the databook. The databook says "like" meaning that is just an example of what BM gives, not the complete list of abilities.

Same as above. DB outright stated what this mode is capable of now, since KCM. Nothing else. We made up the extra boost since we thought it made sense at the time.

Already went over this and you didn't counter my other point.

Im pretty sure it did. Not sure how we can keep dragging out this discussion (unless you debunks my claim that Kabuto is never going to react to Minato's speed.

Well Minato's lacking speed feats but with multiple clones on the battlefield, he's bound to get overwhelmed by their speed eventually.

I dont need, I gave my reasons why he reacted to Madara a certain way. And I gave a reason why I stated he can react to V2 Ay, since SM Naruto out righted stated >> KCM in sensing/reaction.

So statements>>>feats now? Though you can have him reacting to V2 Ay because it doesn't matter since both KCM Minato and Juubito are far superior to V2 Ay.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Long as paragraph to things I already know in the manga. While having misconceptions to back up your point. Minato is going to need to stand still to gather senjutsu, fact. And in no time will Kabuto allow that. And Minato gather nature speed, has no feats to suggest he will do it in time.

Learn to read. Who is talking about gathering nature energy. I'm talking about summoning the elder toads. Doesn't require nature energy.

 

[Izanamı.]

could Minato make giant Rasengans in KCM?​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Yeah, his sensing, as in Sage Sensing>Negative Emotions sensing. Don't know where you are getting SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed from, but it's not the Manga.

You can't make a claim that something inferior that helps him react is superior to something superior that enables him to react.

Lol, slap yourself for the bold. ANY kind of speed boost increases reaction speed. Unless you'd like to admit that:

Base B=V1=v2 B in reaction speed.

Of course I can admit it since its supported with the manga[

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Base Naruto=BM Naruto in reaction speed.

Dont need to, since BM has a form of sensing which help other then Base

The only thing it doesn't develop is sensing, but by developing speed, you can perceive faster things. It doesn't get any simpler than that. 3-Tomoe Sasuke and 3-Tomoe Madara are NOT equal in speed, yet 3-Tomoe Madara can follow and react to things faster than Sasuke can track, because Madara himself is faster.

Not when your enhancing your perception/upgrading with something as a medium (sharingan, sense chakra, Raiton armor) your aren't naturally going to.

JJ Madara and Rinnegan Madara are nowhere near each other in speed, yet JJ Madara can follow Eighth Gate Gai's movements with his eyes despite Rinnegan Madara being unable to do so.

Thats cause JJ senses are superior.

BSM Naruto can sense Juubito, but it doesn't mean shit if he's not fast enough to react to him. BSM Naruto's reaction speed>>>>>>SM Naruto's reaction speed.

Only if I agree with the gap, which is base on upon something I dont agree to.

Lol, do you even know what you are talking about at this point? You need your form of precognition AND your own reaction speed to be able to react to something. 2-Tomoe Sasuke could perceive Lee's movements, but couldn't react. His eyes can follow but his body couldn't.

Your repeating the same premise. Your example of Sasuke vs Naruto was perfect. 2 tomoe couldn't perceive KNO Naruto. His eyes progress and could.

Lol, so SM Naruto=BSM Naruto in reaction speed? Is this what we are resorting to asserting now?

Yes I am asserting. If KM Naruto senses doesn't factor in the fight in the Juubito fight, then its a perfect assertion. If KM Naruto senses factor to someone who he can negative sense then he has 2 perception that helps react to an attack.

And then we have this same old, ridiculous, nonsensical denial of the manga. Cloak looks different, thus it's a superior chakra mode since it's illogical to argue it's the same or weaker. It's obviously a superior chakra mode since Naruto needs no assistance to make moves he'd need chakra arms or clones to make in KCM. Saying it's the same makes ZERO sense.

Except I stated the same in boost. It doesn't have a different speed and it doesn't have a different durability (unless going full Kurama avatar). And sure doesn't have a different negative sense. So my point stands with the DB.

 

[KidGamer65]

You can't make a claim that something inferior that helps him react is superior to something superior that enables him to react.

What do you mean? Either way, I've seen no scan from you that proves overall, SM Naruto's reaction speed>KCM Naruto's reaction speed. Being able to sense faster is irrelevant.

Of course I can admit it since its supported with the manga[

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That only proves Kakashi moves too fast for his own eyes to keep up with, that doesn't prove that V1/V2/KCM/BM all increase the user's reaction speed.

Dont need to, since BM has a form of sensing which help other then Base

Yeah, negative emotions sensing, not precognitive sensing.

Not when your enhancing your perception/upgrading with something as a medium (sharingan, sense chakra, Raiton armor) your aren't naturally going to.

Dafuq? if you are naturally enhancing your set perception, that means the faster you are, the faster you will be able to perceive certain things, and you will be able to perceive faster things.

Thats cause JJ senses are superior.

Nope. That's because JJ Madara is faster. Plain and simple.

Only if I agree with the gap, which is base on upon something I dont agree to.

The gap is large, as manga shows. BSM Naruto reacted to Juubito, I see zero reaction feat from SM Naruto that even begins to come close to this.

-Gets knocked on his ass by Madara.

-Says he can react to Juubito just as well as BSM Naruto did, despite BSM Naruto having the speed boost from Kurama Mode bolstering his stats.

Your repeating the same premise. Your example of Sasuke vs Naruto was perfect. 2 tomoe couldn't perceive KNO Naruto. His eyes progress and could.

I'm repeating the same thing because that's all that is needed to counter your argument. His eyes getting the third tomoe doesn't equate to Kabuto being able to react to Juubito's speed. You keep saying "progress" "progress", even though "progress" isn't the only thing that's going to let someone react to something.

-You claim Kabuto can react to Juubito, despite you being unable to prove that Kabuto's reaction speed is on par with BSM Naruto's reaction speed. You consistently ignore the fact that being able to sense doesn't mean shit if you can't react, and continue to say that "SM sense=Kabuto being able to react to Juubito" even though that is tantamount to me stating that Sasuke should've reacted to Lee despite being able to follow his movements.

-You claim that Base Naruto=BM Naruto in reaction speed despite absolutely no evidence from the manga supporting this nonsensical point. While evidence from the manga shows that BM Naruto's reaction feats>>>>>>>>>>>Base Naruto's.

-You claim that V1 and V2 B=Base B in reaction speed. Lol

Yes I am asserting. If KM Naruto senses doesn't factor in the fight in the Juubito fight, then its a perfect assertion. If KM Naruto senses factor to someone who he can negative sense then he has 2 perception that helps react to an attack.

No it's not, because BSM Naruto is faster than SM Naruto. Not debatable. I suggest you learn how to differentiate sensing and actual reaction speed before you reply again.

Except I stated the same in boost. It doesn't have a different speed and it doesn't have a different durability (unless going full Kurama avatar). And sure doesn't have a different negative sense. So my point stands with the DB.

All I see are empty, baseless claims, while I see scans and reasoning from the manga on my side that clearly show which cloak is superior.

-Is the cloak different? Yes. So don't say it's the same.

-Is the cloak weaker? Obviously not.

So it can only be superior.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Learn to read. Who is talking about gathering nature energy. I'm talking about summoning the elder toads. Doesn't require nature energy.

Your making me write 3 x replies I need dont want to write. You prove is that it doesn't require senjutsu base on Jiraya. Yet your analogy is flawed in many ways.

You sure can't prove Minato can summon them normally, since Sage toads are different requirement then regular toads.

Either way this toad is next to useless in this fight.

Yes Kurama mode does give boost in reaction or else Naruto wouldn't have been able to react to Ay in KCM unless you want to imply that base Naruto can react to Ay's top speed. It will stack up with SM reactions to give even better reactions.

Reaction is base his ability to sense. So it only will stack up if the sense works against the opponent, not a boost.

Maybe because Naruto was up against multiple opponents whereas here he is only against one?

Not a good excuse since he stated this specifically to Edo Han's attack.

The databook never claimed that KCM and BM are at the same speed level. Feats and manga hype imply BM>>>KCM in speed. Just because the databook claims Naruto gains access to TBB and other attacks doesn't mean he doesn't gain access to higher speed just because it wasn't explicitly said in the databook. The databook says "like" meaning that is just an example of what BM gives, not the complete list of abilities.

Didnt say it did but it gave us what it is compare to KCM. No speed and hype suggested that its BM>>>. Again NB made that up and assume the speed he is going "must be faster". The DB is right and the hype is wrong.

Already went over this and you didn't counter my other point.

What point? Quote it.

Well Minato's lacking speed feats but with multiple clones on the battlefield, he's bound to get overwhelmed by their speed eventually.

Thats obvious, but how does that make him win? I am fully aware that Minato can blitz. I also stated Kabuto senses can eventually adapt to it, but all hell breaks loose as using Juuito as an example.

So statements>>>feats now? Though you can have him reacting to V2 Ay because it doesn't matter since both KCM Minato and Juubito are far superior to V2 Ay.

Of course its >>> since the character using these feats stated it, not someone else.

What do you mean? Either way, I've seen no scan from you that proves overall, SM Naruto's reaction speed>KCM Naruto's reaction speed. Being able to sense faster is irrelevant.

Gonna drop you for a sec.

 

[Icelerate]

Reaction is base his ability to sense. So it only will stack up if the sense works against the opponent, not a boost.

Reaction doesn't have to be sensory ability. Ay isn't a sensor yet his reactions far surpass Shee, Ino and Karin. RNY further augments his reflexes even though he gains no sensory abilities to enhance his reactions. BM is the same.

Not a good excuse since he stated this specifically to Edo Han's attack.

I don't remember that fight very well and I rushed the manga at that point but link me to that fight so I can see your point.

Didnt say it did but it gave us what it is compare to KCM. No speed and hype suggested that its BM>>>. Again NB made that up and assume the speed he is going "must be faster". The DB is right and the hype is wrong.

The databook didn't suggest that BM doesn't give a speed boost over KCM. It didn't even talk about speed. Manga feats>>>DB hype.

What point? Quote it.

You didn't counter the fact that V2 Bee is superior to V1 Bee in speed so it stands BM Naruto is superior to KCM Naruto.

Thats obvious, but how does that make him win? I am fully aware that Minato can blitz. I also stated Kabuto senses can eventually adapt to it, but all hell breaks loose as using Juuito as an example.

Okay well I'll agree that he'll eventually react to Minato, not Juubito.

Of course its >>> since the character using these feats stated it, not someone else.

Naruto's statement is equivocal and doesn't necessarily mean his reaction is superior because he talks about the fact he can sense better in SM.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Reaction doesn't have to be sensory ability. Ay isn't a sensor yet his reactions far surpass Shee, Ino and Karin. RNY further augments his reflexes even though he gains no sensory abilities to enhance his reactions. BM is the same.

Ay reaction is only because of RnY.

I don't remember that fight very well and I rushed the manga at that point but link me to that fight so I can see your point.

[

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The databook didn't suggest that BM doesn't give a speed boost over KCM. It didn't even talk about speed. Manga feats>>>DB hype.

The fact it doesn't suggest support my point. There is no manga feats that BM has done that makes him faster then KCM, who out ran Ay.

That making KCM the fastest then, what feat surpasses this feat KCM did.

You didn't counter the fact that V2 Bee is superior to V1 Bee in speed so it stands BM Naruto is superior to KCM Naruto.

What feats is Bee v2 faster then v1. Kisame reacted to both of them so how can you compare them? You can only compare them with the logic that more chakra version = more faster, thats it.

If BM is superior to KCM (which is obvious) its only because can fully access TBB, BM (for regular TBB's), and Kurama's strength and durability when going full BM/limbs.

Okay well I'll agree that he'll eventually react to Minato, not Juubito.

Ok dont mind if I dont reply to an off topic debate after this, since this was my whole point in proving.

Naruto's statement is equivocal and doesn't necessarily mean his reaction is superior because he talks about the fact he can sense better in SM.

sensing better means reacting better. There is no other way to interpret that[

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].

 

[Icelerate]

Ay reaction is only because of RnY.

It proves my point that you don't need to enhance your sensory abilities to improve your reaction.

[

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]

My point still stands, Naruto was outnumbered and fighting in a forest. SM Naruto would have not been able to evade Han in that situation either after getting burned by

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.

The fact it doesn't suggest support my point. There is no manga feats that BM has done that makes him faster then KCM, who out ran Ay.

That making KCM the fastest then, what feat surpasses this feat KCM did.

Deflecting five TBB and getting even more hype for his speed proves that Naruto got even faster. He wouldn't have got additional speed hype considering Kakashi and Gai had already adjusted to KCM speed and were only surprised once he went BM.

What feats is Bee v2 faster then v1. Kisame reacted to both of them so how can you compare them? You can only compare them with the logic that more chakra version = more faster, thats it.

If BM is superior to KCM (which is obvious) its only because can fully access TBB, BM (for regular TBB's), and Kurama's strength and durability when going full BM/limbs.

V1 Bee got

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and

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whereas

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.

Ok dont mind if I dont reply to an off topic debate after this, since this was my whole point in proving.

Well anyway how does Minato lose? A few bijuu rasengan or giant rasengan should do the trick.

sensing better means reacting better. There is no other way to interpret that[

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].

Better than what exactly?

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It proves my point that you don't need to enhance your sensory abilities to improve your reaction.

Na its support my point since the Raiton armor used offensively, is used to electrically stimulate the user's nervous system. The technique speeds up neural synapses to react faster, and to push physical prowess to the absolute limit, allowing for tremendous raw speed. So without it he can't do that.

That boost was never stated Kurama's chakra does something like that. Which is why Naruto strictly replies on his senses.

My point still stands, Naruto was outnumbered and fighting in a forest. SM Naruto would have not been able to evade Han in that situation either after getting burned by

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.

Thats not the same scenario. This scene happened after. Obito use fuu for blind, and sends out 2 paths. One to attack Bee and one for Naruto.

Deflecting five TBB and getting even more hype for his speed proves that Naruto got even faster. He wouldn't have got additional speed hype considering Kakashi and Gai had already adjusted to KCM speed and were only surprised once he went BM.

KCM has feats to deflect a TBB and has feats that moves faster then a TBB projectile so thats not moving faster then he already did. Since when did Guy and Kakashi see KCM fastest speed? Both Guy and Kakashi (well kakashi) saw a movement feat that resembled the movement of his sensei, same hype which Tsunade witness when against V2 Ay.

V1 Bee got

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and

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whereas

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.

You gave a full context of Kisame reacting to V1 Bee while leaving out the context of him preparing himself to block V2 attack. He didn't blitz, Kisame assume he could absorb the attack, and realized it wasn't going to work[

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].

Well anyway how does Minato lose? A few bijuu rasengan or giant rasengan should do the trick.

None of the techs can move at his speed, so building this attack can have Kabuto ready, which my premise follows from my first post:

Kabuto wins.

- FTG kunais all gets eaten with a field of snakes (then reverse summon when they complete their mission). Or Muki Tensei moves the tags to whatever Kabuto wants it to be.

- White Rage gets set off, then the match is over.

- SM reactions are able to progressively react to a Juubi Jin movements, so Minato's speed wont be any different.

- Oral Rebirth, worst case scenario, if tagged.

- Rasengan gets tanked, like in canon, but recover worst case scenario with Oral Rebirth to gain a new body.

- Nenkin no Yoroi blocks chakra from damaging Kabuto's body, so nothing in Minato's arsenal that Kabuto can't recovered from.

I need to be reminded how Minato wins this.

Kabuto has more chances of recovery from Minato's attack then Minato does to his.

Better than what exactly?

Read. Kabuto outright stated his sensing ability has surpass his old from. That means Kabuto can sense in base(Kabutomaru) while SM boost it even further. Kabuto stated his flexes has been boost because of his sensory.

Having better sensory = better reaction.

 

[KidGamer65]

Having better sensory = better reaction.

Yeah, but this obviously isn't what you are grasping. Having better sensory in one mode than the other doesn't mean that said mode reacts faster than the other mode with the inferior sensing. SM Kabuto has sensing while Base Kabuto doesn't have any kind of boost, thus he can react faster. KCM Naruto has inferior sensing, but he has a massive speed boost while SM Naruto doesn't have as massive as a boost, but has better sensing. KCM Naruto's speed makes up for his lack of sensing, so using Kabuto or anyone to claim that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed makes zero sense.

Especially since feats completely disagree with you.

Your point about B makes no sense since Kisame realized he wouldn't be able to absorb it all before B had hit him, meaning the logical choice of action would be to outmaneuver him like he did to V1 B, yet he stood there and took an attack he knew he couldn't absorb.

Cause he was obviously blitzed.

Then there's the fact you have no proof that Naruto and B's chakra modes don't increase their reflexes and reaction speed.


And I see you are still clinging onto this "BM cloak=KCM cloak" in overall power, despite everything in the manga proving you wrong.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Yeah, but this obviously isn't what you are grasping. Having better sensory in one mode than the other doesn't mean that said mode reacts faster than the other mode with the inferior sensing. SM Kabuto has sensing while Base Kabuto doesn't have any kind of boost, thus he can react faster. KCM Naruto has inferior sensing, but he has a massive speed boost while SM Naruto doesn't have as massive as a boost, but has better sensing. KCM Naruto's speed makes up for his lack of sensing, so using Kabuto or anyone to claim that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed makes zero sense.

So basically you are still arguing that moving faster will always have a better perception to what you can react to. Despite that I showed a scan that that's not always true via no Sharingan Kid Kakashi (or even current).

Especially since feats completely disagree with you.

Regardless of your argument or whatever we agree or disagree, I can use both. If I were to agree with you then Ill just add the transfer logic like you did for Hashirama, that enables him to progress, react/tag Juubito.

- Kabuto reacts to Arrow, which is the speed between V1 and V2 Ay. Meaning he can move in that speed, since his perception movement is that fast.

- That speed is around Madara's speed (according to you believing his speed), which you agree can progress his level to tag Juubito with the Sharingan.

Your point about B makes no sense since Kisame realized he wouldn't be able to absorb it all before B had hit him, meaning the logical choice of action would be to outmaneuver him like he did to V1 B, yet he stood there and took an attack he knew he couldn't absorb.

Cause he was obviously blitzed.

He knew it was too late in this scene, I didn't saw he can react at any given time, regardless if he changed his mind or not.

Then there's the fact you have no proof that Naruto and B's chakra modes don't increase their reflexes and reaction speed.

Im arguing against the claim on why its wrong, you asking me to proof a claim yall made.

And I see you are still clinging onto this "BM cloak=KCM cloak" in overall power, despite everything in the manga proving you wrong.

Didn't say overall power. Yall just hyping up that it has to mean "speed" is a power up. BM Naruto has not shown moving faster then your couldnt already move

 

[Icelerate]

Na its support my point since the Raiton armor used offensively, is used to electrically stimulate the user's nervous system. The technique speeds up neural synapses to react faster, and to push physical prowess to the absolute limit, allowing for tremendous raw speed. So without it he can't do that.

That boost was never stated Kurama's chakra does something like that. Which is why Naruto strictly replies on his senses.

I didn't want an in depth explanation on how RNY functions but my point is accessing bijuu chakra modes increase speed/reactions. The stronger the mode, the better this increase is. Increase in chakra flow generally correlates with an increase in speed/reactions as was the case when Deidara upgraded his chakra, it increased his speed/reaction (

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). This makes sense because the more flow of chakra, the more chakra flows in the brain which allows the brain to process information faster.

Thats not the same scenario. This scene happened after. Obito use fuu for blind, and sends out 2 paths. One to attack Bee and one for Naruto.

Well if we are talking about

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, Naruto easily blocked that and clashed attacks. He didn't show signs of almost not being able to react unlike against Madara where he couldn't properly defend himself and instead opted to block in a haphazard manner instead of actively clash hand to hand like KCM Naruto did with Edo Han.

KCM has feats to deflect a TBB and has feats that moves faster then a TBB projectile so thats not moving faster then he already did. Since when did Guy and Kakashi see KCM fastest speed? Both Guy and Kakashi (well kakashi) saw a movement feat that resembled the movement of his sensei, same hype which Tsunade witness when against V2 Ay.

What feats are these? Pretty sure that the point of the new mode was so that Naruto can counter the other five bijuu or else he'd get decimated so if KCM Naruto had this power, they were never in dangerous which contradicts with the manga since if it wasn't for Naruto's BM, it would have been Gai accessing 8th gate to deflect these TBBs. Also just because KCM Naruto moves faster than TBB doesn't mean he can deflect it through sheer speed because he may not have the momentum to do so. Momentum = Mass X Velocity so KCM Naruto needs a much higher velocity to compensate for his smaller mass in comparison to a TBB. Kakashi and Gai's hype>>>Tsunade's considering both are faster than her.

You gave a full context of Kisame reacting to V1 Bee while leaving out the context of him preparing himself to block V2 attack. He didn't blitz, Kisame assume he could absorb the attack, and realized it wasn't going to work[

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].

Kisame's method of absorbing was to swing his blade as Bee comes to him which was successful when Bee was in V1 but when Bee was in V2, Kisame couldn't swing in time, nor could he physically outmanoeuvre and had to resort to bracing himself with his sword sticking in front of him.

None of the techs can move at his speed, so building this attack can have Kabuto ready, which my premise follows from my first post:

I'll counter your premise at the very end of this post.

Kabuto has more chances of recovery from Minato's attack then Minato does to his.

That is true.

Read. Kabuto outright stated his sensing ability has surpass his old from. That means Kabuto can sense in base(Kabutomaru) while SM boost it even further. Kabuto stated his flexes has been boost because of his sensory.

Having better sensory = better reaction.

I know but to what extent do sensory abilities give better reaction? I know for a fact they aren't as great as you claim them to be.

- FTG kunais all gets eaten with a field of snakes (then reverse summon when they complete their mission). Or Muki Tensei moves the tags to whatever Kabuto wants it to be.

Lmao, when one uses shadow clone jutsu, it replicates everything the user has so Minato can have thousands of kunai. These snakes aren't doing squat especially if Minato marks the ground. With so many clones around, Kabuto will be forced to spam Muki Tensei to keep up with all the tags on the battlefield giving Minato an opening to hit him with bijuu rasengan which will be easy as Kabuto won't be able to put any offensive pressure on Minato if he is this focussed on manipulating the tags.

- White Rage gets set off, then the match is over.

No, Minato can still teleport for a few seconds until white rage's effects diminish. Not to mention that in a cave without much distance, Minato's clones will be all around the cave so Kabuto can't hide and can't run due to Minato's superior speed and numbers. Also white rage won't effect Minato as badly as it effected Sasuke due to KCM granting Minato greater resilience.

- SM reactions are able to progressively react to a Juubi Jin movements, so Minato's speed wont be any different.

The location is a cave so the battlefield isn't very big and will be flooded with clones, all of whom can use FTG and have faster shunshin than Kabuto. Kabuto was being pressured by Itachi and Sasuke, Minato's clone army does him much much worse.

- Oral Rebirth, worst case scenario, if tagged.

Sure though Minato and his clones keep on bombarding him with bijuu rasengan and retagging him. Sooner than later, Kabuto won't even be able to use sage mode properly while having to constantly use oral rebirth.

- Rasengan gets tanked, like in canon, but recover worst case scenario with Oral Rebirth to gain a new body.

Bijuu Rasengan and COR are going to do a shit load of damage, leaving Kabuto vulnerable for even more attacks while he can't go on the offensive due to desperately clinging to life.

- Nenkin no Yoroi blocks chakra from damaging Kabuto's body, so nothing in Minato's arsenal that Kabuto can't recovered from.

I need to be reminded how Minato wins this.

Assuming he can use whatever Nenkin no Yoroi is in time.

Minato wins mid difficulty at best.