KCM Minato vs DSM Kabuto

[Brother Numpsay]

Based on the fact that Kurama has the feat of striking fast enough to tag Juubito while BSM Naruto has zero feat that'd put him on that level. Same goes for Sasuke.

Again dont think thats a fair conclusion, but ok.

Nerf? Nope. Being faster means your ability to react is better. That simple.

Ok.

Except he's not, not when it comes to reaction speed.

EMS Madara=EMS Sasuke in reaction speed at the very least.

EMS Sasuke reacted to Juubito, thus EMS Madara would do so as well.

Hashirama=EMS Madara in reaction speed.Thus he'd react as fast as Madara, who reacts as fast as Sasuke, who reacted as fast as Naruto. Thus he reacts to Juubito as well.

That is why SM Hashirama can react to Juubito, not because Sage Mode grants him some God level perception.

Ok SM Kabuto>> reaction EMS Sasuke (before Juubito tag and progression)

So he easily progresses too.

 

[KidGamer65]

^ Kabuto being superior to EMS Sasuke doesn't mean he can progress to EMS Sasuke's level.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

^ Kabuto being superior to EMS Sasuke doesn't mean he can progress to EMS Sasuke's level.

Yes it does. Since he is already superior.

 

[KidGamer65]

Yes he does. Since he is already superior

Uh...he's not. He's not superior to an EMS Sasuke who can track Juubito. Being superior to a Sasuke who can't track Juubito=/=Being superior to a Sasuke who can, and you have zero evidence that Kabuto can progress to reach that level.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Uh...he's not. He's not superior to an EMS Sasuke who can track Juubito. Being superior to a Sasuke who can't track Juubito=/=Being superior to a Sasuke who can, and you have zero evidence that Kabuto can progress to reach that level.

Kabuto >> in reaction

EMS Madara=EMS Sasuke in reaction speed at the very least.

EMS Sasuke reacted to Juubito, thus EMS Madara and Kabuto would do so as well.

Hashirama=EMS Madara in reaction speed and Kabuto >>.Thus he'd react as fast as Madara, who reacts as fast as Sasuke, who reacted as fast as Naruto. Thus he reacts to Juubito as well.

That is why SM Kabuto can react to Juubito.

 

[KidGamer65]

Kabuto >> in reaction

Before his EMS became good enough to follow Obito? Nope. Sasuke's reaction speed on it's own isn't why he was able to track and react to Obito, it's because he was able to follow his movements, so being equal or better than Sasuke in reactions doesn't mean anything since that speed needs a supplement to react to someone as fast as Obito.

2-Tomoe Sasuke and 3-Tomoe Sasuke aren't any different physically, yet 2-Tomoe Sasuke was getting blitzed and slapped around by KN0, but 3-Tomoe was doing the slapping around after he got the 3rd Tomoe, because he learned to follow his movements. Same principle here. EMS Sasuke before his EMS got good enough to track Obito, couldn't follow Obito's movements, but once he started to track him, he was able to land a hit.

There is no evidence that Kabuto is going to be able to rise to a level where he can react to Obito.

Even then, as Ice states below Sasuke's reaction feats in general shit on Kabuto's.

EMS Madara=EMS Sasuke in reaction speed at the very least.

EMS Sasuke reacted to Juubito, thus EMS Madara and Kabuto would do so as well.

Nope.

 

[Icelerate]

Kabuto >> in reaction

EMS Madara=EMS Sasuke in reaction speed at the very least.

EMS Sasuke reacted to Juubito, thus EMS Madara and Kabuto would do so as well.

Hashirama=EMS Madara in reaction speed and Kabuto >>.Thus he'd react as fast as Madara, who reacts as fast as Sasuke, who reacted as fast as Naruto. Thus he reacts to Juubito as well.

That is why SM Kabuto can react to Juubito.

What reaction feats/hype/power scaling put DSM Kabuto on the same level as the likes of EMS Sasuke, EMS Madara, BSM Naruto and SM Hashirama? Absolutely none. Kabuto should be slightly faster than SM Naruto because he's slightly faster than base Naruto in base. Though SM Naruto isn't even on par with blind Madara let alone the four I listed.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Before his EMS became good enough to follow Obito? Nope. Sasuke's reaction speed on it's own isn't why he was able to track and react to Obito, it's because he was able to follow his movements, so being equal or better than Sasuke in reactions doesn't mean anything since that speed needs a supplement to react to someone as fast as Obito.

2-Tomoe Sasuke and 3-Tomoe Sasuke aren't any different physically, yet 2-Tomoe Sasuke was getting blitzed and slapped around by KN0, but 3-Tomoe was doing the slapping around after he got the 3rd Tomoe, because he learned to follow his movements. Same principle here. EMS Sasuke before his EMS got good enough to track Obito, couldn't follow Obito's movements, but once he started to track him, he was able to land a hit.

There is no evidence that Kabuto is going to be able to rise to a level where he can react to Obito.

Even then, as Ice states below Sasuke's reaction feats in general shit on Kabuto's.



Nope.

The evidence is base on the the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke progress. "Im starting get use to sensing him". The ability isn't gain because Naruto got a boost but because Naruto progress with his senses. Meaning that the ability to sense is able to progress.

What reaction feats/hype/power scaling put DSM Kabuto on the same level as the likes of EMS Sasuke, EMS Madara, BSM Naruto and SM Hashirama? Absolutely none. Kabuto should be slightly faster than SM Naruto because he's slightly faster than base Naruto in base. Though SM Naruto isn't even on par with blind Madara let alone the four I listed.

This isn't a power scaling argument. We witness SM progress its sensing by continuously fighting Juubito. Therefore SM can progress its senses to react to the opponents movements.

 

[Bronze]

So Usain Bolt can react faster than boxers because he's faster than them? Lol.

OT: Minato wins.

 

[KidGamer65]

The evidence is base on the the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke progress. "Im starting get use to sensing him". The ability isn't gain because Naruto got a boost but because Naruto progress with his senses. Meaning that the ability to sense is able to progress.

Yeah, Naruto, not Kabuto. No proof that Kabuto can progress to said level. Stop saying "SM" like "SM" is some set thing that is the same for all users. Is Jiraiya going to react to Kabuto because he has "SM" too? Obviously not. BM Naruto's reaction speed far surpasses that of Base Kabuto's, thus giving them both Sage Mode means that BSM Naruto's reaction speed FAR far surpasses that of Sage Mode Kabuto's. If anything Kabuto is closer to SM Naruto, not BSM Naruto.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Yeah, Naruto, not Kabuto. No proof that Kabuto can progress to said level. Stop saying "SM" like "SM" is some set thing that is the same for all users. Is Jiraiya going to react to Kabuto because he has "SM" too? Obviously not. BM Naruto's reaction speed far surpasses that of Base Kabuto's, thus giving them both Sage Mode means that BSM Naruto's reaction speed FAR far surpasses that of Sage Mode Kabuto's. If anything Kabuto is closer to SM Naruto, not BSM Naruto.

Actually it is the same. We have witness Naruto saying he reacts faster then KCM, which reacted to V2 Ay speed. By feat it only reacted V1 speed. Kabuto outright reacted to V1.5 speed attack such as Susanoo arrow, naturally. So no BM Naruto does not react faster then Kabuto. Jiraya is a terrible example since he doesn't have the feats nor completion of mastery Sage ability.

 

[Icelerate]

The evidence is base on the the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke progress. "Im starting get use to sensing him". The ability isn't gain because Naruto got a boost but because Naruto progress with his senses. Meaning that the ability to sense is able to progress.




This isn't a power scaling argument. We witness SM progress its sensing by continuously fighting Juubito. Therefore SM can progress its senses to react to the opponents movements.

But Kabuto hasn't shown that his own senses can progress to the level of the aforementioned four. Going by your logic, if kid Naruto was to use sage mode, his reactions will eventually get accustomed to Juubito's speed.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

But Kabuto hasn't shown that his own senses can progress to the level of the aforementioned four. Going by your logic, if kid Naruto was to use sage mode, his reactions will eventually get accustomed to Juubito's speed.

Um Madara and Hashirama Never ever shown to sense progress to that level either. Your being unreasonable.

 

[KidGamer65]

Actually it is the same.

Uh, no.

We have witness Naruto saying he reacts faster then KCM, which reacted to V2 Ay speed. By feat it only reacted V1 speed.

Naruto said he has better sensing in KCM, not that he reacts faster. Not to mention KCM=/=BM. BM>>KCM. By feats, SM Naruto could barely handle Blind Madara's speed, and Blind Madara is slower than Tobirama who is slower than Minato who is slower than V2 Ay, who only KCM Naruto reacted to, and evaded.

Kabuto outright reacted to V1.5 speed attack such as Susanoo arrow, naturally.

Doesn't put him above the regular level, nor does this prove that his reactions are on par with that of BSM Naruto or Juubito fight EMS Sasuke. Even if he reacted faster than BM Naruto, which he obviously doesn't, Sage Mode multiplies BM Naruto's speed and reactions just like it does to him in Base, so BSM Naruto is still LEAGUES above Kabuto in reaction speed.

So no BM Naruto does not react faster then Kabuto. Jiraya is a terrible example since he doesn't have the feats nor completion of mastery Sage ability.

Naruto's best feat=Reacting to V2 Ay in a slower form.

Kabuto's best feat=Reacting to a Susanoo Arrow, and evading it.

Feat? Irrelevant. All Sages get sensing, so no, Jiraiya is a legit example. Any random fodder with perfect Sage Mode would be a valid example.

If I used your logic, SM Naruto would react to Juubito despite having issues with Blind Madara's speed. Lol

 

[Icelerate]

Um Madara and Hashirama Never ever shown to sense progress to that level either. Your being unreasonable.

But Madara is superior to Sasuke and blind Madara is superior to SM Naruto. Hashirama and Madara are physical equals and can react on par with each other.

Kabuto, on the other hand, got caught off guard by Itachi.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Naruto said he has better sensing in KCM, not that he reacts faster. Not to mention KCM=/=BM. BM>>KCM. By feats, SM Naruto could barely handle Blind Madara's speed, and Blind Madara is slower than Tobirama who is slower than Minato who is slower than V2 Ay, who only KCM Naruto reacted to, and evaded.

No he said it has better and faster. And BM doesn't develop his reaction speed or sensing ability. SM Naruto handle it quite well, especially when he sense no threat to the attack. So nothing changes here.

Doesn't put him above the regular level, nor does this prove that his reactions are on par with that of BSM Naruto or Juubito fight EMS Sasuke. Even if he reacted faster than BM Naruto, which he obviously doesn't, Sage Mode multiplies BM Naruto's speed and reactions just like it does to him in Base, so BSM Naruto is still LEAGUES above Kabuto in reaction speed.

Naruto need SM boost since KM chakra sense is of no use, thus he replied on its senses alone to react to Juubi's movements. So no point here.

Naruto's best feat=Reacting to V2 Ay in a slower form.

Kabuto's best feat=Reacting to a Susanoo Arrow, and evading it.

Feat? Irrelevant. All Sages get sensing, so no, Jiraiya is a legit example. Any random fodder with perfect Sage Mode would be a valid example.

If I used your logic, SM Naruto would react to Juubito despite having issues with Blind Madara's speed. Lol

Good thing Jiraya fits that category compare to other SM users. And no Jiraya does not have senses.

You can use that logic since it was SM Naruto who did react to Juubito with the support of Kurama.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

But Madara is superior to Sasuke and blind Madara is superior to SM Naruto. Hashirama and Madara are physical equals and can react on par with each other.

Kabuto, on the other hand, got caught off guard by Itachi.

Lol no blind Madara isn't superior to SM Naruto, you cant determine that just because he got pushed. Much like you can't say that against EMS Sasuke, who he was evading. Does that make Madara>>Juubito then?

Except Madara never reacted to Juubito and Hashirama never reacted to Juubito, so you can't use these as examples that makes him superior. If I can't use the transfer logic, then you can't either.

Except Kabuto never got caught off guard.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Minato summons Fukasaku. Fukasaku summons his club and knocks the senjutsu out of Kabutos body XD

I wept.

 

[Icelerate]

Lol no blind Madara isn't superior to SM Naruto, you cant determine that just because he got pushed. Much like you can't say that against EMS Sasuke, who he was evading. Does that make Madara>>Juubito then?

Except Madara never reacted to Juubito and Hashirama never reacted to Juubito, so you can't use these as examples that makes him superior. If I can't use the transfer logic, then you can't either.

Except Kabuto never got caught off guard.

If Madara is fast enough to move 10 metres, blitz Sai and in that amount of time, all Naruto can do is move him arm, it means Madara is far faster than SM Naruto and Naruto could barely react. Generally speaking, reaction speed>>>>movement speed so Madara's reaction speed should well surpass Naruto's own reaction speed which is only able to barely keep up with Madara's own foot speed. No Madara isn't>>>Juubito based on this analogy because Madara pressuring SM Naruto in speed isn't the same as doing the same to BSM Naruto. If BSM Naruto isn't faster and more reflexive than SM Naruto then BM Naruto and base Naruto are the same in speed and reflexes which is a purely laughable claim.

Madara is faster than Sasuke and possesses the same eyes as him so the transfer of logic applies.

Yes Kabuto

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by the speed of a mere clone.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

If Madara is fast enough to move 10 metres, blitz Sai and in that amount of time, all Naruto can do is move him arm, it means Madara is far faster than SM Naruto and Naruto could barely react. Generally speaking, reaction speed>>>>movement speed so Madara's reaction speed should well surpass Naruto's own reaction speed which is only able to barely keep up with Madara's own foot speed. No Madara isn't>>>Juubito based on this analogy because Madara pressuring SM Naruto in speed isn't the same as doing the same to BSM Naruto. If BSM Naruto isn't faster and more reflexive than SM Naruto then BM Naruto and base Naruto are the same in speed and reflexes which is a purely laughable claim.

Mention Sai here is useless since he push Naruto first. Blocking the attack =/= barely reacting. That was Naruto's choice of defense mechanism. There was, as I repeat, no threat in his attack. So it doesn't matter how you want to interpret it, since Naruto outright stated that SM is superior then KCM reaction. We have witness KCM succeeding in reacting to faster techs but sometimes fail to react to one too. Nothing different here.

BM is no different then KCM physically boost either. I didn't want to argue against KG last time since it was getting no where. As for this case here, ill use it.

BM Naruto had gain its own "technique DB thread" and here is what was translated:

Kurama Mode

Stated to be the "complete version" of Nine Tails Chakra Mode, accomplished when Naruto and Kurama sync their hearts. It allows Naruto to use the most powerful secret abilities of the Jinchūriki, like Tailed Beast Bomb and Tailed Beast Transformation.

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It allows Naruto only to what was stated (which makes sense in the manga too as we witness)

So none of these examples doesn't disprove the claim of SM sense ability and some exaggerated boost only can.

Madara is faster than Sasuke and possesses the same eyes as him so the transfer of logic applies.

Yes Kabuto

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by the speed of a mere clone.

You and KG are outright showing bias here when it comes to the transfer argument. SM Naruto can react to V2 if he wanted to, doesnt mean he has to be that fast as him to react.

Your logic is also saying that Base Hashirama can do whatever EMS Madara can do. So since EMS Madara needs to adapt his Juubito's speed like Sasuke (since same eyes). And Hashirama automatically does it in Base? Base Hashirama progressively sense/react and tag Juubito?

P.S. your scans shows nothing of Kabuto getting caught. The clone just blows into crows which means nothing.