[Discussion] Newton's laws and TBBT

chopstickchakra

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Serious question, I know a lot of feud threads popped up around this but it made me think about something again. Where do Newton's laws of motion come into play with regards to the big bang? Law 3 in particular, opposite and equal reactions. Does the creation of our universe then result in the destruction of another. If ours is born and sent forth to expand then another must be called back and retracting based on Newton's Law.

Also Law 1 an object at rest stays at rest until acted upon by an outside force, if all of our coding was existing somewhere before our start, then that means it was existing in a dormant state, which means that some outside force acted upon these at rest building blocks of the universe and instigated their reaction which resulted in the creation of the universe.
 

Multiply

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Serious question, I know a lot of feud threads popped up around this but it made me think about something again. Where do Newton's laws of motion come into play with regards to the big bang? Law 3 in particular, opposite and equal reactions. Does the creation of our universe then result in the destruction of another. If ours is born and sent forth to expand then another must be called back and retracting based on Newton's Law.

Also Law 1 an object at rest stays at rest until acted upon by an outside force, if all of our coding was existing somewhere before our start, then that means it was existing in a dormant state, which means that some outside force acted upon these at rest building blocks of the universe and instigated their reaction which resulted in the creation of the universe.
Going to defeat your logic in one sentence.

If you sharpen your pencil does that mean you also didn't sharpen your pencil? Stay woke.

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Gerkak

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Newton's laws don't work for everything. One could say that those laws only work for the universe in its current state, it is impossible to know what happened before the universe came to existence, so a law of the universe cannot be used to explain something that occurred before the universe in which said law was derived from.
 

Alfred Pennyworth

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Serious question, I know a lot of feud threads popped up around this but it made me think about something again. Where do Newton's laws of motion come into play with regards to the big bang? Law 3 in particular, opposite and equal reactions. Does the creation of our universe then result in the destruction of another. If ours is born and sent forth to expand then another must be called back and retracting based on Newton's Law.

Also Law 1 an object at rest stays at rest until acted upon by an outside force, if all of our coding was existing somewhere before our start, then that means it was existing in a dormant state, which means that some outside force acted upon these at rest building blocks of the universe and instigated their reaction which resulted in the creation of the universe.
the laws have nothing to do with big bang.
the 3rd law simply states that if object A apply a force to object B, A would receive an equal and opposite force. basically conservation of momentum. it has nothing to do with the fate of the universe.

your 2nd question is essentially a question of causality.
 
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Andy Bogard

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the laws have nothing to do with big bang.
the 3rd law simply states that if object A apply a force to object B, A would receive an equal and opposite force. basically conservation of momentum. it has nothing to do with the fate of the universe.

your 2nd question is essentially a question of causality.
Moist from the wit there.
Honestly OP, the Universe is going to end one way or another. Going by the beginning logig you proposed, another young Universe is going to Big Bang ours into Oblivion. However, I can say it's safe to say we will not live to see that end. Whoever will, should not suffer too much hopefully when that happens.
 

Yusuke Urameshi

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Newton's laws don't work for everything. One could say that those laws only work for the universe in its current state, it is impossible to know what happened before the universe came to existence, so a law of the universe cannot be used to explain something that occurred before the universe in which said law was derived from.
But theoretical and astrophysicists like to use the constants and Laws of this universe to help define what happened "pre-universe" or "post-Bang." Isn't that a bit contradictory to what you're saying?
 

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Newton's third law is probably the single most misunderstood concept in all of Physics - I have seen more than a couple of Physics undergrads conceptually misunderstand it. The problem, I suspect, is rooted in the way the idea is commonly framed in language: the concept of "action", and especially "reaction".

The trouble is that most people relate these words to their everyday use, where it is used in the sense that an event, an "action", triggers another event, the "reaction", i.e. causality between the events is implied. So a lot of people seem to understand the law in this abstract sense: if A exerts a force on B, B "reacts" with an equal but opposite force on A. If I push the wall, the wall "pushes" back on me, equally. We produce a force A, which causes an equal and opposite force B.

But that statement is actually complete nonsense. Well not quite. Unfortunately, that conceptually wrong understanding of the law is mathematically equivalent to the correct one anyway and this is likely why the misunderstanding is so common: you can get away in your Physics classes with a misunderstanding of the law.

Here is a much better way, in my opinion, of framing Newton's third law: a force is a mutual interaction. Another way to put it would be: forces only exist in mutual interaction pairs.

You see, when I push against the wall, my hand and the wall push against each other, and that is the "mutual interaction". The key point I am trying to make here is that the forces A and B are simultaneously caused (caused by the individual doing the pushing) whereas with incorrect understanding A causes B.

If you have what in Physics culture is sometimes called "Physical intuition", this understanding of the third law should be "obvious". Why is why I always tell people that if you don't intuitively understand Newton's third law, you don't understand it at all.

Most people seem to understand the other two laws but Ill tell you guys a secret: Newton's 1st and third laws are actually pretty useless (but hey, we have to teach high-school kids something about Physics after all). The first law is already subsumed by the second law and the third is not "fundamental", i.e. it can actually be derived from another idea. That idea is the conservation of momentum (which is also not fundamental because it can in fact be derived from the idea of translational symmetry in space).

In fact, it also turns out that force is a pretty redundant concept because it is defined as the rate of change of momentum so all we need again is just momentum. This is why when you get to more advanced Physics, i.e. the standard/level of the Lagranian/Hamiltonian formulations of classical mechanics and above, we completely do away with the concept of force and Newton's laws, and only talk about conserved quantities like momentum, energy and angular momentum. Oh and another thing, Newton's first two laws only hold in an "inertial frame of reference" meaning only in a non-accelerating environment (when you're standing on a bus and it speeds up/down or turns, from your point of view, the first two laws are violated) and the third law doesn't hold at all in relativistic mechanics when you bring fields into the picture (but momentum conservation does).

So to answer your question: Newton's laws don't really have anything to do with the BBT. I mean yes, things like momentum and energy and their conservation (which are the real fundamental ideas of Physics) do have a lot to do with the details of the Physics used in the theory and in cosmology in general. But if you really, want to understand the subtle details of cosmology, you have to study general relativity. I would recommend some popular Physics books but the problem is that popular Physics is mostly worse than f-cking useless because most of it ends up actually obscuring the Physics more than anything else (I read a lot of popular Physics as a teen, then went on to study Physics and found that most of what I had learned from popular Physics was garbage), or is about fancy mathematical science fiction like string theory.

If you really want the answers to the "interesting" questions with regard to the BBT (and I suspect "interesting" for most people would be "why" type questions), you need to read or talk to a "philosopher of Physics". And once you do, even if understand all the Math and Physics as well, you'll find that what they tell you is just verbiage and more questions.
 
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Gerkak

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But theoretical and astrophysicists like to use the constants and Laws of this universe to help define what happened "pre-universe" or "post-Bang." Isn't that a bit contradictory to what you're saying?
It is because, they are just making assumptions. True science is not about assumptions but facts. Scientists can of course say what they think, which is an opinion but to make claims(with almost full certainty) like some do without evidence goes against what science is.

Also one thing to note is that many scientists have admitted that the current model of physics breaks down at the big bang and black holes.

So yes some contradict what I said but I think most don't.
 

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Newton's third law is probably the single most misunderstood concept in all of Physics - I have seen more than a couple of Physics undergrads conceptually misunderstand it. The problem, I suspect, is rooted in the way the idea is commonly framed in language: the concept of "action", and especially "reaction".

The trouble is that most people relate these words to their everyday use, where it is used in the sense that an event, an "action", triggers another event, the "reaction", i.e. causality between the events is implied. So a lot of people seem to understand the law in this abstract sense: if A exerts a force on B, B "reacts" with an equal but opposite force on A. If I push the wall, the wall "pushes" back on me, equally. We produce a force A, which causes an equal and opposite force B.

But that statement is actually complete nonsense. Well not quite. Unfortunately, that conceptually wrong understanding of the law is mathematically equivalent to the correct one anyway and this is likely why the misunderstanding is so common: you can get away in your Physics classes with a misunderstanding of the law.

Here is a much better way, in my opinion, of framing Newton's third law: a force is a mutual interaction. Another way to put it would be: forces only exist in mutual interaction pairs.

You see, when I push against the wall, my hand and the wall push against each other, and that is the "mutual interaction". The key point I am trying to make here is that the forces A and B are simultaneously caused (caused by the individual doing the pushing) whereas with incorrect understanding A causes B.

If you have what in Physics culture is sometimes called "Physical intuition", this understanding of the third law should be "obvious". Why is why I always tell people that if you don't intuitively understand Newton's third law, you don't understand it at all.

Most people seem to understand the other two laws but Ill tell you guys a secret: Newton's 1st and third laws are actually pretty useless (but hey, we have to teach high-school kids something about Physics after all). The first law is already subsumed by the second law and the third is not "fundamental", i.e. it can actually be derived from another idea. That idea is the conservation of momentum (which is also not fundamental because it can in fact be derived from the idea of translational symmetry in space).

In fact, it also turns out that force is a pretty redundant concept because it is defined as the rate of change of momentum so all we need again is just momentum. This is why when you get to more advanced Physics, i.e. the standard/level of the Lagranian/Hamiltonian formulations of classical mechanics and above, we completely do away with the concept of force and Newton's laws, and only talk about conserved quantities like momentum, energy and angular momentum. Oh and another thing, Newton's first two laws only hold in an "inertial frame of reference" meaning only in a non-accelerating environment (when you're standing on a bus and it speeds up/down or turns, from your point of view, the first two laws are violated) and the third law doesn't hold at all in relativistic mechanics when you bring fields into the picture (but momentum conservation does).

So to answer your question: Newton's laws don't really have anything to do with the BBT. I mean yes, things like momentum and energy and their conservation (which are the real fundamental ideas of Physics) do have a lot to do with the details of the Physics used in the theory and in cosmology in general. But if you really, want to understand the subtle details of cosmology, you have to study general relativity. I would recommend some popular Physics books but the problem is that popular Physics is mostly worse than f-cking useless because most of it ends up actually obscuring the Physics more than anything else (I read a lot of popular Physics as a teen, then went on to study Physics and found that most of what I had learned from popular Physics was garbage), or is about fancy mathematical science fiction like string theory.

If you really want the answers to the "interesting" questions with regard to the BBT (and I suspect "interesting" for most people would be "why" type questions), you need to read or talk to a "philosopher of Physics". And once you do, even if understand all the Math and Physics as well, you'll find that what they tell you is just verbiage and more questions.
You just said a lot of nothing.

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Multiply

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From what i read he kinda sorted s*** out. What did you do but post some meme of Jaden Smith?
Why make this about my joke?

He didn't offer a solution to the OP's problem, he merely deflected it by saying someone with more knowledge on the subject could answer better, and even then they could only offer more questions.
 

Hattake Ryuzaki

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Why make this about my joke?

He didn't offer a solution to the OP's problem, he merely deflected it by saying someone with more knowledge on the subject could answer better, and even then they could only offer more questions.
Well because your "joke" contributed nothing to the subject and what he said is kinda true...... science is hard man :Omg:
 

Disquiet

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FYI: Scientists now think the Big Bang Theory is false. Check it out if you want to.
You're referring to this?



I've been seeing this on the internet over the last few days, and while interesting, it's still in its infancy and not exactly something that has suddenly compelled a significant portion of the scientific community to doubt the big bang theory. Not that I believe in that in the first place.
 
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