[Discussion] my oppinion why yonkou is not the same lvl of fleet or admiral lvl

Anduril

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what it comes down to is that if Oda were to rewrite MF Haki would be shown very differently than it was all those years ago, he knew Haki was a thing but he didn't know what everything it was, the biggest difference is visual, but it can't be denied that Haki at MF was poorly done, a group of high tiers fighting and their Haki looked weaker than in the Luffy v Chinjao fight even if we all (should) know it wasn't, it's not an inconsistency of existence of Haki in teh manga, it's an inconsistency of portrayal of Haki

and there is the issue here, the portrayal of haki at MF is outdated and the Haki shown by the top tiers there seems unimpressive compared to what we get now, Oda did not have the full idea of Haki from the start, the issue that started all this was that someone said WBs Haki was weak judging by MF and that is all I wanted to reply to so I'll just stop here becasue this has gotten ridiculous
You think there was bad portrayal of Haki at MF? Well You did see the Fight between Kizaru and Ray did'nt you?

So you will agree that Ray was able to draw blood from Kizaru when he slashed him with his sword? no? definitely awesome haki.
And then we have WB in this panel,

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WB slashed Kizaru's body with his Bisento and he surely used Haki (since it made kizaru stop) and It showed zero lasting damage on Kizaru.

Please Explain this O'mighty braniac, If it was not extremely weak haki on WB's side.
 

Hexuze

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This is a prime example of the admiral wank I have been talking about that is very much present on the base. Where is Bajram? He wanks the hardest though.
He's right. The marines did defeat the WB pirates by an overwhelming difference. Yonko's (captains) & Admirals are in the same tier.
 

chopstickchakra

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You think there was bad portrayal of Haki at MF? Well You did see the Fight between Kizaru and Ray did'nt you?

So you will agree that Ray was able to draw blood from Kizaru when he slashed him with his sword? no? definitely awesome haki.
And then we have WB in this panel,

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WB slashed Kizaru's body with his Bisento and he surely used Haki (since it made kizaru stop) and It showed zero lasting damage on Kizaru.

Please Explain this O'mighty braniac, If it was not extremely weak haki on WB's side.
The exclamation marks, imo, mean that Kizaru stopped because he was surprised WB could react to his speed in his condition and know where he was going to be to attack. If that was a real Haki laced slash then why as you said did Kizaru show NO damage, not even a drop of blood? It's still a blade.
 

A v i

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The exclamation marks, imo, mean that Kizaru stopped because he was surprised WB could react to his speed in his condition and know where he was going to be to attack. If that was a real Haki laced slash then why as you said did Kizaru show NO damage, not even a drop of blood? It's still a blade.

The same reason why Marco and Vista failed to wound Akainu. His haki wasn't strong enough or rather he wasn't in a condition to use his haki effectively. It's stupid to even think that WB of all people attacks an admiral and a logia at that without using haki. So only logical explanation would be he did used haki but it wasn't strong enough to cause damage to someone of Kizaru's level.


He's right. The marines did defeat the WB pirates by an overwhelming difference. Yonko's (captains) & Admirals are in the same tier.

" "

With that statement he was implying that he can deal with Kizaru and help SH's i.e. fight a Shichibukai after fighting an admiral if he was younger. I don't think he can pull such a feat if his younger version is on the same level as an admiral. It proves that top dogs in OP are above admirals by a decent margin.
 
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Hexuze

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The same reason why Marco and Vista failed to wound Akainu. His haki wasn't strong enough or rather he wasn't in a condition to use his haki effectively. It's stupid to even think that WB of all people attacks an admiral and a logia at that without using haki. So only logical explanation would be he did used haki but it wasn't strong enough to cause damage to someone of Kizaru's level.




" "

With that statement he was implying that he can deal with Kizaru and help SH's i.e. fight a Shichibukai after fighting an admiral if he was younger. I don't think he can pull such a feat if his younger version is on the same level as an admiral. It proves that top dogs in OP are above admirals by a decent margin.
That doesn't mean he can defeat them, it just implies that he can help them out a lot more if he was younger. Lending a hand =/= Defeating/killing them. He wanted them to escape with ease. Yonko (captains) are stronger than admirals (well most of them), no one is denying that here. That doesn't imply they're on a different tier/league. The only tier above admirals is PK tier, not yonko.
 

Mugiwara kun

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what it comes down to is that if Oda were to rewrite MF Haki would be shown very differently than it was all those years ago, he knew Haki was a thing but he didn't know what everything it was, the biggest difference is visual, but it can't be denied that Haki at MF was poorly done, a group of high tiers fighting and their Haki looked weaker than in the Luffy v Chinjao fight even if we all (should) know it wasn't, it's not an inconsistency of existence of Haki in teh manga, it's an inconsistency of portrayal of Haki

and there is the issue here, the portrayal of haki at MF is outdated and the Haki shown by the top tiers there seems unimpressive compared to what we get now, Oda did not have the full idea of Haki from the start, the issue that started all this was that someone said WBs Haki was weak judging by MF and that is all I wanted to reply to so I'll just stop here becasue this has gotten ridiculous
I understand what you're saying and all But if we were to analyze the MF war,there are reasons why Haki wasn't really portrayed well there. I mean there is no way Oda wouldn't know How he would have handled haki.
 

A v i

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That doesn't mean he can defeat them, it just implies that he can help them out a lot more if he was younger. Lending a hand =/= Defeating/killing them. He wanted them to escape with ease. Yonko (captains) are stronger than admirals (well most of them), no one is denying that here. That doesn't imply they're on a different tier/league. The only tier above admirals is PK tier, not yonko.
You know that he must incapacitate Kizaru to a degree where he won't get in his way in order to help SH's right? If he is on the same level as Kizaru then he can't do that. There is no need to use his statement in this argument,in fact his feats clearly explains the difference in strengths of him and an admiral level fighter. Rayleigh was in 70's or late 60's back then yet he was fighting evenly with an admiral and he didn't even fought for a period of 20y prior to his battle with Kizaru. It's clear to me that he's considerably above admiral level during his prime.

Why on earth do u think marines didn't try to go against Shanks despite of having 5 admirals level fighters on their side? I am pretty sure 3 of them didn't even receive notable wounds.
 

Hexuze

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You know that he must incapacitate Kizaru to a degree where he won't get in his way in order to help SH's right? If he is on the same level as Kizaru then he can't do that. There is no need to use his statement in this argument,in fact his feats clearly explains the difference in strengths of him and an admiral level fighter. Rayleigh was in 70's or late 60's back then yet he was fighting evenly with an admiral and he didn't even fought for a period of 20y prior to his battle with Kizaru. It's clear to me that he's considerably above admiral level during his prime.

Why on earth do u think marines didn't try to go against Shanks despite of having 5 admirals level fighters on their side? I am pretty sure 3 of them didn't even receive notable wounds.
No, he doesn't have to impair Kizaru that much. He just has to fend him off. I doubt prime rayleigh can defeat Kizaru and Kuma at the same time, seeing how easily Kuma blitzed in front of Rayleigh and surprised him. At best, he'll just be able to fend them off till the SH's have escaped. Also, Kizaru is arguably the weakest pre-TS admiral, he's definitely not the strongest. Lol Rayleigh was showing signs of getting fatigued pretty quickly and Kizaru wasn't trying either. The "fight" wasn't looking so great for Rayleigh.

Um, I don't know... maybe because of the speech both Coby/Shanks gave? Mihawk left as well since he's not interested in fighting Shanks, so they "lost" a powerhouse there. It will just result in many casualties. It was ultimately up to Sengoku whether they wanted to fight Shanks' crew or not but he came to decision to end the war after hearing from Shanks.
 
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Zorø

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All im saying is if Whitebeard was in his prime at Marineford he would of made quick work of the Admirals, Akainu wouldve died, Kizaru would of got rekted, Aokiji wouldve got rekted aswell.
 

Uzumaki Macho

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You know that he must incapacitate Kizaru to a degree where he won't get in his way in order to help SH's right? If he is on the same level as Kizaru then he can't do that. There is no need to use his statement in this argument,in fact his feats clearly explains the difference in strengths of him and an admiral level fighter. Rayleigh was in 70's or late 60's back then yet he was fighting evenly with an admiral and he didn't even fought for a period of 20y prior to his battle with Kizaru. It's clear to me that he's considerably above admiral level during his prime.

Why on earth do u think marines didn't try to go against Shanks despite of having 5 admirals level fighters on their side? I am pretty sure 3 of them didn't even receive notable wounds.
Agreed. Prime Rayleigh beats an Admiral high diff and Roger beats an Admiral mid diff.
 

Hexuze

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All im saying is if Whitebeard was in his prime at Marineford he would of made quick work of the Admirals, Akainu wouldve died, Kizaru would of got rekted, Aokiji wouldve got rekted aswell.
@bold
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Agreed. Prime Rayleigh beats an Admiral high diff and Roger beats an Admiral mid diff.
I agree for the most part, depending on which admiral you're talking about. As for Roger, I doubt he can mid-diff. an admiral but for that we'll just have to wait and see.
 
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A v i

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No, he doesn't have to impair Kizaru that much. He just has to fend him off. I doubt prime rayleigh can defeat Kizaru and Kuma at the same time, seeing how easily Kuma blitzed in front of Rayleigh and surprised him. At best, he'll just be able to fend them off till the SH's have escaped.
As I told you before, if he's only a little stronger than admiral level then he's not hold them both at the same time. If he's admiral level then Kizaru is enough to make him busy while Kuma takes care of the crew. If he go after Kuma to help SH's then Kizaru'll get in his way and vice versa. So only option left for him in that condition is to incapacitate one of two big dudes and deal with the other.


Also, Kizaru is arguably the weakest pre-TS admiral, he's definitely not the strongest. Lol Rayleigh was showing signs of getting fatigued pretty quickly and Kizaru wasn't trying either. The "fight" wasn't looking so great for Rayleigh.
It doesn't matter if he was the weakest as the gap b/w admirals isn't even big enough to put someone b/w them. He's old, what would you expect from a old man? Kizaru wasn't trying? Where exactly did u get that? If anything, Rayleigh was highly distracted by SH's condition.

Um, I don't know... maybe because of the speech both Coby/Shanks gave? Mihawk left as well since he's not interested in fighting Shanks, so they "lost" a powerhouse there. It will just result in many casualties. It was ultimately up to Sengoku whether they wanted to fight Shanks' crew or not but he came to decision to end the war after hearing from Shanks.

As I have already pointed out Marines still have 5 admirals level fighters even if we exclude warlords. Where as on pirates side Shanks is the only one that can beat an admirals according to your logic which means that Shanks can't do shit against marines with his cute little battle ship. Yet none of them tried to make a move against him. Besides ,I don't remember Akainu being moved by Coby's speech. Yet he didn't even try to lift a finger against him. If a bloodlusted dude regains his senses and starts thinking wisely after looking at someone then it means that the other dude is superior to him in a way or another and in this particular case Shanks is superior to Akainu in terms of strength.
 
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Hexuze

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As I told you before, if he's only a little stronger than admiral level then he's not hold them both at the same time. If he's admiral level then Kizaru is enough to make him busy while Kuma takes care of the crew. If he go after Kuma to help SH's then Kizaru'll get in his way and vice versa. So only option left for him in that condition is to incapacitate one of two big dudes and deal with the other.
Rayleigh would get injured in the process of fending off both Kizaru/Kuma at the same time. Rayleigh never implied he can take them both on, he only suggested he can help them escape easier. Rayleigh knows little no nothing about Kuma's ability either, so taking his word to suggest that yonko/Prime Rayleigh are in another league than admirals is just hype.


It doesn't matter if he was the weakest as the gap b/w admirals isn't even big enough to put someone b/w them. He's old, what would you expect from a old man? Kizaru wasn't trying? Where exactly did u get that? If anything, Rayleigh was highly distracted by SH's condition.
Are you serious lmao? That's not a fair representation of the admirals if you're using arguably the weakest admiral as a scale of the admirals strength to yonko/Rayleigh. Kizaru was trying? Where did you get that from? It was mainly clashes and like I said before, Rayleigh was getting fatigued quite easily. If it had continued he would of died. Kizaru mainly uses beams, we've never seen him use a sword up until that fight and even after that. He probably used a sword just cause of the heat of the moment when he got countered by Rayleigh. He's a troll and rarely is ever serious. He was even trolling around with WB during MF.



As I have already pointed out Marines still have 5 admirals level fighters even if we exclude warlords. Where as on pirates side Shanks is the only one that can beat an admirals according to your logic which means that Shanks can't do shit against marines with his cute little battle ship. Yet none of them tried to make a move against him. Besides ,I don't remember Akainu being moved by Coby's speech. Yet he didn't even try to lift a finger against him. If a bloodlusted dude regains his senses and starts thinking wisely after looking at someone then it means that the other dude is superior to him in a way or another and in this particular case Shanks is superior to Akainu in terms of strength.
Ever heard of plot? That wouldn't happen. Just like how plot saved WB from getting rushed by the 3 admirals simultaneously. Why do you think Oda only made Akainu be "serious" during the war and only have him chase down WB. It could of been complete overkill to have a serious Kuzan/Kizaru/Garp/Mihawk/Sengoku at the same time, they were doing nothing for the most part. Even if they did fight against WB, it would be for a couple of panels. Only Akainu was hunting WB down for the most part. Who said Akainu was moved by his speech? Sengoku was the fleet admiral and he had the highest authority in the war. Sengoku agreed to Shanks' speech. Shanks is superior in strength compared to Akainu, there's no need for you to tell me that. However, he's not on a different league. Akainu just fought WB and was injured pretty bad, would it be wise to fight against another yonko at that state? No.


I can already tell this discussion will lead us no where so I'll tell you this to keep it short and simple.: If a yonko can defeat an admiral extreme diff., it doesn't mean they're on another league.
 
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A v i

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Rayleigh would get injured in the process of fending off both Kizaru/Kuma at the same time. Rayleigh never implied he can take them both on, he only suggested he can help them escape easier. Rayleigh knows little no nothing about Kuma's ability either, so taking his word to suggest that yonko/Prime Rayleigh are in another league than admirals is just hype.
Did I said that he's fight them at the same time? No. Rayleigh's words are " I'd like to go there but I am not as young as I used to be'. In order to go there and help them he must incapacitate Kizaru at least for a while and proceed to help SH's to escape. He was
implying that he's have done that if he's younger, One can't pull such a feat if his strength is on par with admirals that's it. I have never implied that he's beat them at the same time.



Are you serious lmao? That's not a fair representation of the admirals if you're using arguably the weakest admiral as a scale of the admirals strength to yonko/Rayleigh. Kizaru was trying? Where did you get that from? It was mainly clashes and like I said before, Rayleigh was getting fatigued quite easily. If it had continued he would of died. Kizaru mainly uses beams, we've never seen him use a sword up until that fight and even after that. He probably used a sword just cause of the heat of the moment when he got countered by Rayleigh. He's a troll and rarely is ever serious. He was even trolling around with WB during MF.
Are u retarded or something? The gap b/w admirals is too damn small to a point where you can't even put someone b/w them. It means that if someone is strong enough to beat Kizaru with mid dif them same shit will happen against any other admiral. You can use any admiral to justify power scaling.
Kizaru is a goofy character so it looks like he wasn't being serious that doesn't mean that he wasn't fighting with his full force. The thing is that he was fighting on par with admiral despite of being at disadvantage. If Old Rayleigh can fight on par with admiral then it means that Young one is much stronger than admirals. Anyone with some common sense can understand this.


Ever heard of plot? That wouldn't happen. Just like how plot saved WB from getting rushed by the 3 admirals simultaneously. Why do you think Oda only made Akainu be "serious" during the war and only have him chase down WB. It could of been complete overkill to have a serious Kuzan/Kizaru/Garp/Mihawk/Sengoku at the same time, they were doing nothing for the most part. Even if they did fight against WB, it would be for a couple of panels. Only Akainu was hunting WB down for the most part.

It wasn't plot, admirals were busy with their own opponents back then. Sengoku ordered Garp not to fight and they have decided to fight only when it's necessary. It has nothing to do with plot. Stop using lameass excuses.



Who said Akainu was moved by his speech? Sengoku was the fleet admiral and he had the highest authority in the war. Sengoku agreed to Shanks' speech. Shanks is superior in strength compared to Akainu, there's no need for you to tell me that. However, he's not on a different league. Akainu just fought WB and was injured pretty bad, would it be wise to fight against another yonko at that state? No.


I can already tell this discussion will lead us no where so I'll tell you this to keep it short and simple.: If a yonko can defeat an admiral extreme diff., it doesn't mean they're on another league.
I said none of the marines tried to attack him and you said it might be because of Coby's speech which is why I bought Akainu into discussion as he's a marine. Akainu was in no state to decide what is right or what is wrong. He decided to face all of WB commanders head on and even tried to kill his own men in front of everyone without any hesitation. Yet this guy regained his senses and started thinking wisely when Shanks was standing in front of him. That says something.
 

Hexuze

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Did I said that he's fight them at the same time? No. Rayleigh's words are " I'd like to go there but I am not as young as I used to be'. In order to go there and help them he must incapacitate Kizaru at least for a while and proceed to help SH's to escape. He was
implying that he's have done that if he's younger, One can't pull such a feat if his strength is on par with admirals that's it. I have never implied that he's beat them at the same time.
He doesn't have to harm Kizaru to that degree, Rayleigh was fast enough to intercept him quite a few times because of how fast he is & his CoO presumably. At a younger state, he can move a lot quicker. Thus, he may just outspeed Kizaru (ironically) to the point where he can allow the SH's to escape because of Kizaru's recharge. I never said he was on par with an admiral? I'm aware prime Rayleigh is stronger but he's still in the same tier, admiral tier or it's possible he was close to PK tier but I doubt it.

Are u retarded or something? The gap b/w admirals is too damn small to a point where you can't even put someone b/w them. It means that if someone is strong enough to beat Kizaru with mid dif them same shit will happen against any other admiral. You can use any admiral to justify power scaling.
Kizaru is a goofy character so it looks like he wasn't being serious that doesn't mean that he wasn't fighting with his full force. The thing is that he was fighting on par with admiral despite of being at disadvantage. If Old Rayleigh can fight on par with admiral then it means that Young one is much stronger than admirals. Anyone with some common sense can understand this.
Your point? I was implying that Kizaru never tries and he's the weakest of the bunch, so how is that a fair representation exactly? Using Akainu would be much better, since we've seen him actually try and fight at full force. He wasn't fighting on par, he was clearly getting fatigued easily. That doesn't suggest prime rayleigh is much stronger. The gap isn't that huge. Anyone with some common sense can understand this.




It wasn't plot, admirals were busy with their own opponents back then. Sengoku ordered Garp not to fight and they have decided to fight only when it's necessary. It has nothing to do with plot. Stop using lameass excuses.
Use your brain, why would the Marines fight another yonko? They suffered many causalities from the war with WB, it wouldn't be wise to pick on another yonko. Especially knowing that some of the warlords may withdraw since they never agreed to fight 2 yonko's, only WB.



I said none of the marines tried to attack him and you said it might be because of Coby's speech which is why I bought Akainu into discussion as he's a marine. Akainu was in no state to decide what is right or what is wrong. He decided to face all of WB commanders head on and even tried to kill his own men in front of everyone without any hesitation. Yet this guy regained his senses and started thinking wisely when Shanks was standing in front of him. That says something.
Look back at what I said, I mentioned both Coby/Shanks, not just Coby specifically. There's nothing he could of done anyways, the submarine was ready to submerge underwater. Only Kuzan/Kizaru could step in and they did. Also, defeating Shanks will accomplish what? Shanks has nothing to do with Ace's execution & Akainu just barely survived a fight with WB. The marines already won. It's not a matter of Shanks being in a different league, it was a rational decision. Yes, he decided to fight all the WB commanders head on since Luffy was still on the island.

If Akainu was still healthy, he would have no problem fighting with Shanks. He had no problem fighting with WB, then he'll have no problem with fighting any other yonko. Use common sense. P.S, you ignored the statement I've made at the end of my previous post.
 

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Marineford so stupidly in the Marine's/WG favor, yet a single Yonko and his crew were able to nearly destroy their main headquarters. Both sides weren't at full strength, but the Pirates far more than the Marines. That should be a testament to the strength of each individual Yonko and his crew.
 

Uzumaki Macho

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Marineford so stupidly in the Marine's/WG favor, yet a single Yonko and his crew were able to nearly destroy their main headquarters. Both sides weren't at full strength, but the Pirates far more than the Marines. That should be a testament to the strength of each individual Yonko and his crew.
How were the Whitebeard Pirates not at their full strength.
 

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How were the Whitebeard Pirates not at their full strength.
Whitebeard was weak and there was a lot of turmoil within Squard's Crew and the chain of command.

Strategically, the WB Pirates had no chance. They were surrounded by Marines on almost every corner and the crescent bay was basically a death trap.

Still, they managed to push to the execution stand... less than 10% of the world's power (WB Pirates) vs almost 50% of the world's power (Shichi + Marines). The latter should have LOLstomped WB and his crew, but they didn't.
 

Vandenre1ch

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Dang the heat is strong in here. Heres a few explanations for those who are confused:

There are 2 versions of CoA: the normal version(invisible) and CoA: hardening(black). The invisible one works like an extension of your body. Like a suit of armor as Rayleigh said. It increases attack and range(slightly/barely). That's the kind we've seen pre-ts. Post-TS we were introduced too, in Luffy's words, Armament Haki: Hardening. With this one, CoA is consentrated on your body itself and takes a black form. It increases your strength, durabiltiy and resistance but no added range.

Rayleigh and Kizaru-Old Rayleigh stalemated the weakest Admiral(pre-ts) and was losing. His sweat was a dead giveaway. He simply implied that if he was younger, he would be able to assist the SHs in some way even if he was fighting Kizaru.

Old WB's Haki- It seems haki has something to with will or concentration. Just before WB swung at Kizaru, he had a heart attack and Ace was in serious shit. He probably couldn't manifest enough haki to hurt Kizaru because of it. Against, WB was determined and freaking PISSED so he was easily able to manifest his CoA at the max to punched the red dog's head in.

Old WB fighting the Admirals: Each and every admiral there had a MUCH better performance than WB even when fighting him 1v1. Yeah I know WB's reflexes were shot and that he had a rather superficial stab, but the admirals were VERY CONFIDENT, disrespectful and eager to fight WB, even before WB got stabbed and they had no knowledge of WB's illness.

Top Tier fights last for a LONG ASS TIME. No top tier can beat another top tier in less than a day. Prime WB> Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru of course, but it'll be a long while until he beats them in a 1v1.
 
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