[VS] Hashirama vs Team Overrated

[KidGamer65]

Base on what makes it a ridiculously large margin

Based on Obito's speed feats>>>>Minato's speed feats. Based on Obito taking off Minato's arm before the latter could escape. Based on BSM Naruto having trouble landing hits on him, and BSM Naruto>>BM Naruto>KCM Minato>KCM Naruto in speed.

Him having Susanoo doesn't mean crap since Madara reaction goes by what his eye can preserve. And his eyes didn't preserve Ay+Onoki.

I know that. Lol, hence me saying Ay and Onoki=/=Ay, so using this as a speed feat for Ay is flawed. Gonna need proof for the bold though. Gonna need the speed feats if you believe the bold.

So by what evidence does Ay+Onoki => Minato or KCM Minato

Base Minato? Ay alone is faster. KCM Minato? Who knows, but I can tell you that lightened Ay has better speed feats (obviously)

There was no failure unless you have evidence that Naruto attended to evade. Naruto stated his reaction is better then KCM reaction and we have witness KCM reactions by feats.

Lol. If Naruto could have countered Madara instead of letting himself get knocked on his ass, he would have, but he couldn't, so all he did was focus on blocking. You are going to need evidence that Naruto decided to block and only block when that goes against all logic.

Naruto stated his sensing is better in this mode, not his overall reaction.

I fail to see what you are trying to prove with this point

You are trying to use V1 Ay "forcing" Madara to block as evidence that KCM Minato will blitz Hashirama, even though Madara only blocked because of Mei's attack and Ay's attack, not because he's too slow.

so your actually stating that Madara is faster then Ay, just to be clear?

Let me know so I know not to continue this discussion

His speed feat of almost blitzing SM Naruto>>>Raikage getting evaded by SM Naruto. Not to mention I'm talking about V1 Ay. Either get proof for the contrary or please stop posting, not like I expect anything fruitful to come from arguing with you.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Based on Obito's speed feats>>>>Minato's speed feats. Based on Obito taking off Minato's arm before the latter could escape. Based on BSM Naruto having trouble landing hits on him, and BSM Naruto>>BM Naruto>KCM Minato>KCM Naruto in speed.

@Bold your just repeating my question on how it just as a big margin to Base Minato, compare his KCM. And the rest is just you rambling about strike speed.

I know that. Lol, hence me saying Ay and Onoki=/=Ay, so using this as a speed feat for Ay is flawed. Gonna need proof for the bold though. Gonna need the speed feats if you believe the bold.

Why does it matter that it wasn't Ay alone, for this discussion? He has gain a +1 speed from Onoki as I am arguing that Kurama has gain Minato +1 speed in KCM.

The manga made it clear that Madara did not react to Ay+Onoki[

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] hope your reading right to left.

Base Minato? Ay alone is faster. KCM Minato? Who knows, but I can tell you that lightened Ay has better speed feats (obviously)

@Bold, so apparently we are ignoring manga now.

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So I guess your claim is just as = as stating Ay alone is faster then KCM Naruto.

It dont mean crap that lightened Ay has better speed feats with Onoki, when Base Minato is actually superior in speed to Ay anyway. And its undeniable KCM boosts everything. So in the end the same character who was inferior to the character, the superior character can replicate it.

Lol. If Naruto could have countered Madara instead of letting himself get knocked on his ass, he would have, but he couldn't, so all he did was focus on blocking. You are going to need evidence that Naruto decided to block and only block when that goes against all logic.

Naruto stated his sensing is better in this mode, not his overall reaction.

It also against all logic that Naruto would run after him in CQC when he has much better options in the situation. But as IM about to state below comment:

You are trying to use V1 Ay "forcing" Madara to block as evidence that KCM Minato will blitz Hashirama, even though Madara only blocked because of Mei's attack and Ay's attack, not because he's too slow.

As long we aren't talking about top speed I dont give a crap about these points.

His speed feat of almost blitzing SM Naruto>>>Raikage getting evaded by SM Naruto. Not to mention I'm talking about V1 Ay. Either get proof for the contrary or please stop posting, not like I expect anything fruitful to come from arguing with you.

As long we aren't talking about top speed I dont give a crap about these points.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Bold your just repeating my question on how it just as a big margin to Base Minato, compare his KCM. And the rest is just you rambling about strike speed

If Obito takes off Minato's arm before he can teleport, then Obito is far faster. That simple. Obito's speed feats are worlds beyond Minato's, you are going to need to prove to me that Minato's speed is as fast as you claim it is.

Why does it matter that it wasn't Ay alone, for this discussion? He has gain a +1 speed from Onoki as I am arguing that Kurama has gain Minato +1 speed in KCM.

Except these numerical values, and the equivalence you are giving them came from your ass and not the manga.

The manga made it clear that Madara did not react to Ay+Onoki[

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] hope your reading right to left.

Except nothing in the manga shows Madara being blitzed. Physically? Possibly. Before Susanoo could counter? Yes. Mentally? Zero evidence.

@Bold, so apparently we are ignoring manga now.

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So I guess your claim is just as = as stating Ay alone is faster then KCM Naruto.

Except it doesn't. Already replied to your first scan below, and the rest doesn't portray KCM Naruto=Base Minato in speed, so get that thought out of your head.

It dont mean crap that lightened Ay has better speed feats with Onoki, when Base Minato is actually superior in speed to Ay anyway.
And its undeniable KCM boosts everything. So in the end the same character who was inferior to the character, the superior character can replicate it.

Except Minato isn't faster than Ay. If he is, it's because of Hiraishin, and no statement or feat in the manga supports your assertion. None whatsoever, especially since the first thing you bring relates to reflexes and reaction speed, and not movement speed.


Nope. that's exactly what you are doing.

-Reaction speed=/=Movement speed.

-C says that Lord Raikage's nerve transmission and Reaction speed are on par with Minato's, but he's used Raiton to augment his reflexes, not even Sharingan can keep up with him. That statement does nothing but imply that top speed Ay>Minato in reaction speed and reflexes.

It also against all logic that Naruto would run after him in CQC when he has much better options in the situation. But as IM about to state below comment:

Run after him? What in the hell are you talking about? Countering him like he countered Raikage, or actually evading instead of taking Madara's hit would be better than letting Madara knock him to the ground. Not to mention Naruto knows jack shit about Madara's battle style w/o his Dojutsu, him not going for CQC against a Blind, Base Madara in favor of letting himself get knocked on his ass. This is a no brainer pal.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

If Obito takes off Minato's arm before he can teleport, then Obito is far faster. That simple. Obito's speed feats are worlds beyond Minato's, you are going to need to prove to me that Minato's speed is as fast as you claim it is.

Lol what? Again using your examples of someone using their hands =/= the same speed on foot. I never even made a claims that Minato's speed is on par with Juubito so what evidence do I need to prove?

All I need to prove that Minato was the second fastest during that time, to get my point across. Its absolutely unnecessary to break down/exploit and analyze something so obvious to the point your arguing just to argue.

Except these numerical values, and the equivalence you are giving them came from your ass and not the manga.

Right because I was using these numbers literally to get my point across.

Except nothing in the manga shows Madara being blitzed. Physically? Possibly. Before Susanoo could counter? Yes. Mentally? Zero evidence.

I dont give a damn about the @Bold part. My point was made the moment stated in @underline as to why Hashirama is getting tagged in the beginning.

Except it doesn't. Already replied to your first scan below, and the rest doesn't portray KCM Naruto=Base Minato in speed, so get that thought out of your head.

Then your just being illiterate from the context as it has been said time and time again that Naruto w/ Kurama body flicker reminded them of Minato.

Except Minato isn't faster than Ay. If he is, it's because of Hiraishin, and no statement or feat in the manga supports your assertion. None whatsoever, especially since the first thing you bring relates to reflexes and reaction speed, and not movement speed.

Lol stop the context made it clear that Naruto's movements resembled Minato, unless your implying KCM Naruto = Hiraishin. Because thats how you are basically reading the context.

-Reaction speed=/=Movement speed.

Ok, I took that one out of context. But please take your own advice from your first rebuttal quote.

-C says that Lord Raikage's nerve transmission and Reaction speed are on par with Minato's, but he's used Raiton to augment his reflexes, not even Sharingan can keep up with him. That statement does nothing but imply that top speed Ay>Minato in reaction speed and reflexes.

Address

Run after him? What in the hell are you talking about? Countering him like he countered Raikage, or actually evading instead of taking Madara's hit would be better than letting Madara knock him to the ground. Not to mention Naruto knows jack shit about Madara's battle style w/o his Dojutsu, him not going for CQC against a Blind, Base Madara in favor of letting himself get knocked on his ass. This is a no brainer pal.

Dont care about this point to drag on, since its irrelevant to me.

 

[Narutimate Storm]

Lol at Ei being faster than yellow flash. Space time ninjutsu not make you faster than someone, raterded logic. Otherwise obito faster than ei according that logic.

How can someone call you fastest shinobi. Yet person who say still beat other guy in race?? Contradict entire statement. Databook say it, Tobirama say it, hiruzen say it. Kcm naruto put below minato speed by yamato. Bm naruto speed compare to minato from kakashi.

Hiraishin not requirement for minato to be faster than ei.

 

[KidGamer65]

Lol what? Again using your examples of someone using their hands =/= the same speed on foot. I never even made a claims that Minato's speed is on par with Juubito so what evidence do I need to prove?

All I need to prove that Minato was the second fastest during that time, to get my point across. Its absolutely unnecessary to break down/exploit and analyze something so obvious to the point your arguing just to argue.

Except Minato being the second fastest (Which is false since Naruto has BM and BSM and they are BOTH faster than Minato) isn't true, not to mention that doesn't mean the gap is still ridiculously large, something you've made no attempt to prove wrong.

Right because I was using these numbers literally to get my point across.

And once again, the equivalence you are giving both values is nothing but stuff you pulled from your ass. You can assign numeric values to anything you want, but if their meaning is something you made up, it's invalid.

I dont give a damn about the @Bold part. My point was made the moment stated in @underline as to why Hashirama is getting tagged in the beginning.

Except Susanoo not being able to physically react in time=/=Hashirama or Madara not being able to physically react in time. So you have no point. You can't prove that Madara was physically or mentally incapable of reacting, that simple.

Then your just being illiterate from the context as it has been said time and time again that Naruto w/ Kurama body flicker reminded them of Minato.

Because Minato is the Yellow Flash. Naruto makes a flash when he moves, and it's yellow due to his cloak. They are both extremely fast, has nothing to do with them being equal in speed. Of course, if you yourself weren't illiterate and unable to understand manga statements, you'd know this.

Lol stop the context made it clear that Naruto's movements resembled Minato, unless your implying KCM Naruto = Hiraishin. Because thats how you are basically reading the context.

Naruto was paralleled to Minato because they both dodged Ay's punch, as per Ay's statement, and the whole sub point of the encounter. Minato used Hiraishin to dodge Ay, meaning they are paralleling that instance with Naruto's instance. Does that even begin to mean that Naruto=Hiraishin in speed? Obviously not.

Not to mention Minato is called the "Yellow Flash" because of Hiraishin, not because of his Shunshin.

You are claiming that KCM Naruto=Base Minato based on them comparing Naruto's speed to Minato's. Yet KCM Naruto's speed was compared to Minato's, AND BM Naruto's speed was compared to Minato's, and BM Naruto is faster than KCM Naruto. Nobody is equating speed here, at least not the manga and anyone who reads it correctly.

Not to mention Naruto dodged Ay on foot, Minato needed Hiraishin.

 

[Narutimate Storm]

^^^^
Minato not need hiraishin to dodge ei you illiterate U_U

He use hiraishin to counter ei. Difference between dodge and counter. Naruto only able to dodge. Meanwhile mimato counter and almost slash him.

Hiraishin>shunshin, which why minato rely on it more. Minato vs ei was real fight. Naruto vs ei was just test. Not same at all. Shunshin innefective against ei to counter his speed. Hiriashin much effective than shunshin. Shunshin not let minato attack ei, only means of running, so why use it.

Space time ninjutsu not make you fastest. Cos obito not fastest, tobirama not faster than minato either but bith uses same jutsu. Minato shunshin feats greater than ei, so not even debatable.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Lol at Ei being faster than yellow flash. Space time ninjutsu not make you faster than someone, raterded logic. Otherwise obito faster than ei according that logic.

How can someone call you fastest shinobi. Yet person who say still beat other guy in race?? Contradict entire statement. Databook say it, Tobirama say it, hiruzen say it. Kcm naruto put below minato speed by yamato. Bm naruto speed compare to minato from kakashi.

Hiraishin not requirement for minato to be faster than ei.

They are arguing just to argue Lol. They know for a fact that as the moment Hashirama is tagged the match is over. They will say anything to make their argument sound valid.

 

[KidGamer65]

^^^^
Minato not need hiraishin to dodge ei you illiterate

He use hiraishin to counter ei. Difference between dodge and counter. Naruto only able to dodge. Meanwhile mimato counter and almost slash him.

Hiraishin>shunshin, which why minato rely on it more. Minato vs ei was real fight. Naruto vs ei was just test. Not same at all. Shunshin innefective against ei to counter his speed. Hiriashin much effective than shunshin. Shunshin not let minato attack ei, only means of running, so why use it.

When you have proof Minato's Shunshin>Ay's Shunshin, then we can talk.

They are arguing just to argue . They know for a fact that as the moment Hashirama is tagged the match is over. They will say anything to make their argument sound valid.

The fact you are even agreeing with this guy's logic only shows me how retarded you are, or maybe you are butthurt because Hashirama is the opposing character.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

The fact you are even agreeing with this guy's logic only shows me how retarded you are, or maybe you are butthurt because Hashirama is the opposing character.

Not agreeing with guys logic only shows your how much wank and dense you are with the match up.

You made that very clear here:

Your basing your argument of Minato facing Ay the first time/first experience, when they have fought many times after, in order to match Ay's speed with only FTG?

Then making statements like this:

Because Minato is the Yellow Flash. Naruto makes a flash when he moves, and it's yellow due to his cloak. They are both extremely fast, has nothing to do with them being equal in speed.

But try to make it seem I am a user that isn't needed to be taken seriously Lol

 

[KidGamer65]

Not agreeing with guys logic only shows your how much wank and dense you are with the match up.

If only I was wanking. Though it seems you are still bitching, must be what you do best.

You made that very clear here:

Your basing your argument of Minato facing Ay the first time, when they have fought many times after, in order to match Ay's speed?

Barely understand what the hell you are talking about here.

Then making statements like this:



But try to make it seem I am a user that isn't needed to be taken seriously Lol

That's exactly why they say Naruto looks like a yellow flash.

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Please read the manga and stop being a retard for at least one moment in your life. Whatever pathetic grudge you have against Hashirama (and people who argue for him) needs to be dropped, cause it seems you make shittier arguments than usual when arguing against him.

 

[Gold Lightning]

The fact you are even agreeing with this guy's logic only shows me how retarded you are, or maybe you are butthurt because Hashirama is the opposing character.

They aren't wrong

"Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."

How can you be the greatest on God like speed if it only involves Hiriashin. Why didn't the databook list that in Tobirama's profile as well?

I didn't even think this was still an argument, after Minato showed up on the battlefield before all the other Hokage, went to the sea to plant the kunai, set the markings around the juubi, sent the bomb to the ocean (factor in the time the explosion took to pass), then talked to naruto and sakura for a bit, all before the others arrived. In the anime, by my count it took just over 2 minutes for the other hokage to arrive. To which Hiruzen tells minato he's as fast as ever, followed by Tobirama praising his shunshin. All of that was body flicker, the only thing that involved FTG was sending the bomb away. I thought kishi portrayed just why exactly he's the fastest with that entire moment (all of which was to praise his natural speed, not FTG). Just because he relies on FTG more than body flikcer, doesn't mean his body flicker wasn't the fastest. Ay called him the fastest as well, why is there even a debate after such a statement?

FTG wasnt the only reason for his nickname either

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[KidGamer65]

They aren't wrong

"Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."

How can you be the greatest on God like speed if it only involves Hiriashin. Why didn't the databook list that in Tobirama's profile as well?

Minato's reflexes and reaction speed+Hiraishin=Fastest Shinobi. They aren't talking about any kind of race setting, so I suggest anyone thinking that gets it our of their heads, now. Minato earned his moniker because of his speed when using Hiraishin, not because of his Shunshin.

I didn't even think this was still an argument, after Minato showed up on the battlefield before all the other Hokage, went to the sea to plant the kunai, set the markings around the juubi, sent the bomb to the ocean (factor in the time the explosion took to pass), then talked to naruto and sakura for a bit, all before the others arrived. In the anime, by my count it took approximately 2 minutes for the other hokage to arrive. To which Hiruzen tells minato he's as fast as ever, followed by Tobirama praising his shunshin. All of that was body flicker, the only thing that involved FTG was sending the bomb away. I thought kishi portrayed just why exactly he's the fastest with that entire moment (all of which was to praise his natural speed, not FTG). Just because he relies on FTG more than body flikcer, doesn't mean his body flicker wasn't the fastest. Ay called him the fastest as well, why is there even a debate after such a statement?

If only anything in this paragraph even begun to prove that Minato's Shunshin is the fastest. All you have are off panel feats, and statements that speak of him w/ Hiraishin, All you are proving is that he's faster than the other Hokage, not that he's faster than top speed Ay...the sheer fact it was off panel only means that you are assuming he only used Shunshin to travel, when he easily could have used Hiraishin as well.

Kishimoto portrayed that Minato is the fastest, w/ Hiraishin available to him. He never came out and said or implied that Minato was the fastest w/o it.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Barely understand what the hell you are talking about here.

Ay and Minato battled many times. You are using their first battle to explained that Minato needs to rely solely on FTG to match Ay's speed. And yet so far your are aguring that Minato did not surpass Tobirama in that category of the living fastest man.

That's exactly why they say Naruto looks like a yellow flash.

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Please read the manga and stop being a retard for at least one moment in your life. Whatever pathetic grudge you have against Hashirama (and people who argue for him) needs to be dropped, cause it seems you make shittier arguments than usual when arguing against him.

Not only were there more then one occasion that Minato was known for his bodyflicker but you attempting to use examples to base Narutos speed being on par with FTG speed.

So if your going to use insult at least know what your talking about

 

[KidGamer65]

Ay and Minato battled many times. You are using their first battle to explained that Minato needs to rely solely on FTG to match Ay's speed.

If only you could tell me why this isn't valid. Minato and Ay fighting many times later isn't going to change the fact that Minato used Hiraishin to evade Ay's top speed. Not gonna change the fact that Ay acknowledges him based on that occurrence.

Not only were there more then one occasion that Minato was known for his bodyflicker

His Shunshin being fast=/=His moniker of "yellow flash" coming from it. Also, I'm gonna need to see proof of that, and please provide real proof, not proof of them saying his Shunshin is fast, cause that isn't proof that it is what he was known for.

but you attempting to use examples to base Narutos speed being on par with FTG speed.

If you were smart enough to actually read before you posted, you'd know I already replied to this nonsense. You are the one who is attempting to use parallels to equate Naruto and Minato's speed, yet the manga never said or implied that the parallel was for that purpose, just something you made up to prove your point, since no existing manga evidence proves your point.


Manga parallels Naruto and Minato evading Ay's fist, does that mean that they are equally as fast? Which would also hamper your argument since KCM Naruto and BM Naruto have been paralleled to Minato. Obviously not. So once again, stop using parallels to display equality when no evidence points to that being the purpose of said parallel.

 

[BlacLord™]

Ej, you can't use what Cee said because Cee has never had the Sharingan. He can't see through Sasuke's eyes and besides, he was proven wrong when Sasuke reacted, and managed to coat his Susano'o with Amaterasu before fully clad Ay got to him.

You see, this thing called "character perspective" exists. It's where characters are lead to believe something which may not be accurate/correct because said character isn't in possession of all the facts. Kishi is very good at incorporating it.

At the end of the day, you can only take actual feats and facts into account; conjecture is too unreliable.

OT: Hashirama mid-diff.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Minato's reflexes and reaction speed+Hiraishin=Fastest Shinobi. They aren't talking about any kind of race setting, so I suggest anyone thinking that gets it our of their heads, now. Minato earned his moniker because of his speed when using Hiraishin, not because of his Shunshin.



If only anything in this paragraph even begun to prove that Minato's Shunshin is the fastest. All you have are off panel feats, and statements that speak of him w/ Hiraishin, All you are proving is that he's faster than the other Hokage, not that he's faster than top speed Ay...the sheer fact it was off panel only means that you are assuming he only used Shunshin to travel, when he easily could have used Hiraishin as well.

Kishimoto portrayed that Minato is the fastest, w/ Hiraishin available to him. He never came out and said or implied that Minato was the fastest w/o it.

arent some of you the ones who claim tobiramas reflexes and reaction are greater than minatos? So in that case, tobirama is the fastest according to some of you right? But again, I'm not seeing any of that in tobiramas databook. He had FTG, he had good reflexes and reactions just like minato, and some of you say tobirama is better.. so by your logic, tobirama must be the fastest.

Kishi didn't have to come out and say minato is the fastest without it, it's basic reading comprehension. It doesn't even require you to read inbetween the lines, its so obvious. Where has it ever stated that minato was the fastest because of FTG? Because I can tell you that it says that no where. That's just you applying what you want to believe. It may be the reason for his nickname, but it's not the reason he's the fastest.

You really trying hard to deny this aren't you Lol, Tobirama just praised his body flicker, yet you're saying he might have used FTG wow, that's really reaching. He reached the battlefield 2 mins before the former fastest ninja of his time. And not only that, performed many actions during that time, to show off his speed. You realize their are multiple minato shunshin feats that blow all of Ays out of the water?

Yamato said kcm shunshin isn't on minatos level yet. But lemmie guess, you think that yamato was comparing narutos speed to hiraishin Lol. Obito said minato lived up to his name, after he saw minato use body flicker. So right there pretty much disproves that minatos speed and alias only came down to FTG.

Space time ninjutsu doesn't make someone fast. Kakashi witnessed Obitos space time ninjutsu for the first time, and said it surpassed Minato's. Yet kakashi didn't claim tobi was the fastest ninja he'd ever seen.

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. Might Guy praised for having . Guy who also has the greatest striking speed and one of the best reflexes and speed, was never even remotely praised as the fastest.

 

[Bogard]

When Tobi got the baby snatched from him with a shunshin, he said, "You live up to your moniker." showing that his shunshin is included in the moniker. Similarly, when he saved Kushina -by shunshin above a far away tree- from the inches away Kyubi's hand speed(faster than SM Naruto), Obito said it was "a flash of hope". When reading the flashback, you got the impression that Minato was simply the fastest in everything. Shunshin to hiraishin, to ripping off exploding tags off a baby into shunshining away from an explosion from already burning tags in his hand. Just like Tobirama admitting both his shunshin and striking speed are incredibly fast. He's also an unrivaled genius in insight and understanding.

He was the only person who correctly deduced that Tobi wasn't really Madara in their first meeting. Comparatively, he didn't just beat Ei's first shunshin by taking five actions to the one from the 2nd fastest man alive. He also figured out Raikage's next possible course of action, (shunshinning to the marker he jumps to) and had Bee's tail tagged to give himself a location Ei wouldn't blitz punch. During that time, he also grasped the relationship between Ei and Bee, and gave them relationship counseling. Reactions, uptake and insight, shunshin, foot speed, learning, forming strategies and counter strategies, ect. He was the fastest or near there at all of these.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

If only you could tell me why this isn't valid. Minato and Ay fighting many times later isn't going to change the fact that Minato used Hiraishin to evade Ay's top speed. Not gonna change the fact that Ay acknowledges him based on that occurrence.

It isn't valid because your basing your claim that within all their encounters Minato did use Hirashin everytime to match his top speed

His Shunshin being fast=/=His moniker of "yellow flash" coming from it. Also, I'm gonna need to see proof of that, and please provide real proof, not proof of them saying his Shunshin is fast, cause that isn't proof that it is what he was known for.

It doesn't work that way. All of the category about his speed is what made him known. Never ever made it specificly for FTG otherwise Minato ever surpass Tobirama

If you were smart enough to actually read before you posted, you'd know I already replied to this nonsense. You are the one who is attempting to use parallels to equate Naruto and Minato's speed, yet the manga never said or implied that the parallel was for that purpose, just something you made up to prove your point, since no existing manga evidence proves your point.

Your going by parallel that Naruto = Hirashin so how is my post nonsense and yours isnt? Minato creates a yellow flash, and its supposedly through FTG, which suppose to teleport you in an instant, not leaving trails?

Manga parallels Naruto and Minato evading Ay's fist, does that mean that they are equally as fast? Which would also hamper your argument since KCM Naruto and BM Naruto have been paralleled to Minato. Obviously not. So once again, stop using parallels to display equality when no evidence points to that being the purpose of said parallel.

Yes because Naruto was compared to Minato. It doesn't hamper anything but it hampers you interpretation which makes it add contradictions to the manga.

 

[Chazzi]

So much debating over a fight that ends with a Tsukuyomi one shot.