Help me to solve this logic.

[Ansatsuken]

OK, help me to understand this logic

Juubi is Kaguya+Shinju=Progenitor of Naruto world

Juubi as himelf cant concentrate on his true potential(this logic is wierd).

But Juubi jin able to cut that weaknesses and using Juubi true potentials.

Madara as Juubi jin is like Madara+Kaguya and Shinju(Progenitor), same as Obito

No, its actually Madara+Hagoromo(Rinnegan)+Kaguya and Shinju(9 Tomoe sharingan and a Progenitor)

The problem here, how Sasuke or Naruto able to match him one on one.

Let see

Naruto+Hagoromo power up+Kurama and small portion of Bijuus chakra

Sasuke+Hagoromo power up+6 Tomoe Rinnegan

How that kind of power can be match to 3 eyes Madara logically

What logic manga use to make that kind of Power that logically pale compared to 3 eyes Madara able to match or surpass him.

From where all that power come from and match with Man that have Progenitor(Kaguya) power plus Progenitor own son(Hagoromo) power?

If you'll said Hagoromo power, what exactly Hagoromo gave to them, abilities upgrade or abilities+Hagoromo chakra upgrade?

If you all said abilities upgrade, there is no logic for them to be powerful as 3 eyes Madara as Madara still superior to them by having body+eyes+chakra.

If you all said abilities+Hagoromo chakra, I can say logic is present there but how much chakra Hagoromo have and how much chakra Hagoromo split between them. But still with Hagoromo chakra adding, there is no way their chakra equaling 3 eyes Madara chakra especially for Sasuke case.

If you all say chakra potency and quality, 3 eyes Madara also having very potent and quality chakra. And again, still I dont believe that reason is logical because their chakra quality and potency still below Juubi jin level logically.

What actually happen in the manga, if there is no logical way to explain it, what can we speculate here? Kishi messing with his manga? ABC logic is in control, DBZ logic is used(Main characters will overpower their villain after power up although their villain is more powerful).

It is because when I saw members here constructing battle situation, its seem very unlogical or its to easy.

But here I'm not seeking for battle base argument, thats mean no battle here.

I'm just want to know your thinking/opinion about this matters/logic.

I make a POLL and you'll can vote.

 

[V h o]

For one Kaguya had more chakra and power than Madara, so your point is off there.

 

[jiraiya nindo]

the juubi is the shinju

kaguya merged with it later on

the juubi can use its full power, yes. It's just that with a jinc, it can use it better and more efficiently because of human brain instead of mindless rampaging beast

And you're right. Naruto and sasuke can't match him one on one. They can only keep up with him when double teaming him. If you want my opinion, if that fight kept going, I think madara wouldve won. He was doing pretty good until BZ betrayed him

 

[Gerkak]

Having the power of someone, doesn't mean that you are equals. Madara awakened hogoromo's chakra it doesn't mean he is hogoromo's equal. The same can be said about madara and kaguya, kaguya is above him by a massive margin.

Naruto and sasuke were given powers by a being that is above madara, even given that they are only able to match him as a team not individually.

Chakra quantity isn't everything, a perfect example is kisame and itachi. Kisame has far larger chakra reserves than itachi yet he admitted inferiority to the uchiha.

Naruto and sasuke together were simply better than madara.

 

[Ansatsuken]

For one Kaguya had more chakra and power than Madara, so your point is off there.

Yeah I know, but JJ Madara is behind her in chakra reserve.

its not logical if Naruto or Sasuke have chakra reserve on par or above JJ Madara.

 

[V h o]

Yeah I know, but JJ Madara is behind her in chakra reserve.

its not logical if Naruto or Sasuke have chakra reserve on par or above JJ Madara.

Nothing really implied that Naruto or Sasuke's charka reserves were equal or above JJ Madara. Chakra reserves =/= power.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Having the power of someone, doesn't mean that you are equals. Madara awakened hogoromo's chakra it doesn't mean he is hogoromo's equal. The same can be said about madara and kaguya, kaguya is above him by a massive margin.

Naruto and sasuke were given powers by a being that is above madara, even given that they are only able to match him as a team not individually.

Chakra quantity isn't everything, a perfect example is kisame and itachi. Kisame has far larger chakra reserves than itachi yet he admitted inferiority to the uchiha.

Naruto and sasuke together were simply better than madara.

I accept they both combine able to match JJ Madara, but there are peoples think that individually they able to beat 3 eyes Madara and construct long reason of how the chosen characters can defeat 3 eyes Madara.

I find it stupid and not making sense.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Nothing really implied that Naruto or Sasuke's charka reserves were equal or above JJ Madara. Chakra reserves =/= power.

OK , thanks for the answer.

But in individual level, is their power on par with 3 eyes Madara?

 

[V h o]

OK , thanks for the answer.

But in individual level, is their power on par with 3 eyes Madara?

As in could they beat 3 eyes Madara alone?

Naruto can not counter IT, assuming he is not immune to it. (I somewhat believe he is, since Hamura was immune).

Sasuke most likely can't deal with limbo and Madara.

This is still using their previous forms, not VoTE 2.

 

[Ansatsuken]

As in could they beat 3 eyes Madara alone?

Naruto can not counter IT, assuming he is not immune to it. (I somewhat believe he is, since Hamura was immune).

Sasuke most likely can't deal with limbo and Madara.

This is still using their previous forms, not VoTE 2.

What about VOTE 2 form individually

But keep in mind, Sasuke not having Bijuu PS here, as bijuu chakra is not Sasuke own power unlike Naruto with Kurama.

 

[V h o]

What about VOTE 2 form individually

But keep in mind, Sasuke not having Bijuu PS here, as bijuu chakra is not Sasuke own power unlike Naruto with Kurama.

Naruto still has no counter to IT, and restricting Bijuu PS is basically restricting VoTE 2 features...Bijuu PS would be able to deal with madara and limbo imo.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Hi bro to be honest this is rather hard to answer question xd
However I will try my best.
1. Past time ten tails != madara's version of ten tails.
Recently I thought in close way to yours process of thoughts. Close because although most of people find yin kurama like nothing in compare to ten tails's vast amount of chakra I still saw it as difference.
However along with fan translation of Kaguya's pages from databook IV the view on news about it makes great difference. To be precise, databook IV says that after Kaguya casted It on mankind and absorbed all chakra possible from them Kagiya thirsty for more chakra aimed for chakra from her own son. Unable to face them off in her form she merged with god tree giving birth to terryfing mpnster known as juubi. The rest of history you know so I stop here. Basically what we got fromthis text are:
- Prime Kaguya(past time) had all chakra absorbed from victims of it.
- Prime Juubi(past time)=Prime Kaguya + god of tree

2. Later databook mentions that Kaguya merging with god tree in past caused her to be unable ro focus that power instead used it randomly around as new entity.
- Kaguya != juubi in potence

3. Kaguya ressurection was only possible due to vast chakra amount absorbed from it victims added to juubi great amount of chakra on it's own. It just confirms what Naruto said about kaguya chakra being > present time juubi.
Sasuke even questioned her existence.

4. Well about Hagoromo and powering both Naruto and Sasuke.
Considering previous points: Hagoromo + Hamura >= Prime Juubi. Taking in note that Hagoromo ~ Hamura, make each of them half of prime juubi's power. Add juubi - kaguya power to Hagoromo which would make him around 75% of Prime Kaguya.
I knpw he was post prime age + not jin and yet ghost, but it is not farfetched to say Hagoromo cpuld power up them greatly.

5. Well as team both Naruto and Sasuke beat jj Madara at his best although Madara would put up battle of course.
It was proved by manga as drg jj madara against team for short brief amount of time.

6. Separately they would loose before the last the movie mid diff at best. As adults they surely honed their skills however i dont see chakra amount growing along with age as considerable change in chakra amount comparing to past.
That why at the best I can see one of them as 90% of prime jj Madara at best.

Just a bunch of my thaughts about it.
Sorry for spelling errors but I am on my phone.

 

[Rikodou Mode]

Hagoromo = Indra + Ashura

Naruto > Ashura - Sasuke > Indra

Madara = Hagoromo + Shinju + portion of tailed beasts

Madara > Hagoromo by just a bit

Naruto + Sasuke + portion of tailed beasts > Hagoromo by just a bit

Madara = Naruto + Sasuke

Only difference is Madara had Shinju/Kaguya's power but that's to compensate for his lack of body. He isn't Hashirama so he only has Hagormo's chakras hence the Rinnegan. (1% of body =/= 99% body). Sasuke has his chakra/eyes like Madara but Naruto has Hagormo's body unlike Madara. This was the only logic I could find

 

[Torche]

To put it simply...

Body + Eyes >>> Eyes.
Body + Eyes >>> Body.

In other words, they can't solo.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Hi bro to be honest this is rather hard to answer question xd
However I will try my best.
1. Past time ten tails != madara's version of ten tails.
Recently I thought in close way to yours process of thoughts. Close because although most of people find yin kurama like nothing in compare to ten tails's vast amount of chakra I still saw it as difference.
However along with fan translation of Kaguya's pages from databook IV the view on news about it makes great difference. To be precise, databook IV says that after Kaguya casted It on mankind and absorbed all chakra possible from them Kagiya thirsty for more chakra aimed for chakra from her own son. Unable to face them off in her form she merged with god tree giving birth to terryfing mpnster known as juubi. The rest of history you know so I stop here. Basically what we got fromthis text are:
- Prime Kaguya(past time) had all chakra absorbed from victims of it.
- Prime Juubi(past time)=Prime Kaguya + god of tree

2. Later databook mentions that Kaguya merging with god tree in past caused her to be unable ro focus that power instead used it randomly around as new entity.
- Kaguya != juubi in potence

3. Kaguya ressurection was only possible due to vast chakra amount absorbed from it victims added to juubi great amount of chakra on it's own. It just confirms what Naruto said about kaguya chakra being > present time juubi.
Sasuke even questioned her existence.

4. Well about Hagoromo and powering both Naruto and Sasuke.
Considering previous points: Hagoromo + Hamura >= Prime Juubi. Taking in note that Hagoromo ~ Hamura, make each of them half of prime juubi's power. Add juubi - kaguya power to Hagoromo which would make him around 75% of Prime Kaguya.
I knpw he was post prime age + not jin and yet ghost, but it is not farfetched to say Hagoromo cpuld power up them greatly.

5. Well as team both Naruto and Sasuke beat jj Madara at his best although Madara would put up battle of course.
It was proved by manga as drg jj madara against team for short brief amount of time.

6. Separately they would loose before the last the movie mid diff at best. As adults they surely honed their skills however i dont see chakra amount growing along with age as considerable change in chakra amount comparing to past.
That why at the best I can see one of them as 90% of prime jj Madara at best.

Just a bunch of my thaughts about it.
Sorry for spelling errors but I am on my phone.

Thanks for the input my friend

Actually, this thread is created by me to collect the opinions from members here about what logic hardcore Naruto and Sasuke fans uses here when they think Naruto or Sasuke can defeat 3 eyes Madara individually.

If you not believe it go to the threads that talking about Madara and Naruto or Sasuke.

I admitted that both Naruto and Sasuke together able to defeat 3 eyes Madara, but when this members give a reason how Sasuke or Naruto able to defeat 3 eyes Madara individually, I find it stupid and not making any sense. Their battle situation looks to easy like Sasuke alone or Naruto alone is above 3 eyes Madara. SMH

 

[KCMNaruto]

Thanks for the input my friend

Actually, this thread is created by me to collect the opinions from members here about what logic hardcore Naruto and Sasuke fans uses here when they think Naruto or Sasuke can defeat 3 eyes Madara individually.

If you not believe it go to the threads that talking about Madara and Naruto or Sasuke.

I admitted that both Naruto and Sasuke together able to defeat 3 eyes Madara, but when this members give a reason how Sasuke or Naruto able to defeat 3 eyes Madara individually, I find it stupid and not making any sense. Their battle situation looks to easy like Sasuke alone or Naruto alone is above 3 eyes Madara. SMH

I agree fully and nice thread by the way

+ rep back

 

[KidGamer65]

Help me to solve this logic.
OK, help me to understand this logic

Juubi is Kaguya+Shinju=Progenitor of Naruto world

Juubi as himelf cant concentrate on his true potential(this logic is wierd).

But Juubi jin able to cut that weaknesses and using Juubi true potentials.

Uh-huh

Madara as Juubi jin is like Madara+Kaguya and Shinju(Progenitor), same as Obito

No. Juubi is not as strong as Kaguya is. Manga shows this.

The problem here, how Sasuke or Naruto able to match him one on one.

Let see

Naruto+Hagoromo power up+Kurama and small portion of Bijuus chakra

Sasuke+Hagoromo power up+6 Tomoe Rinnegan

How that kind of power can be match to 3 eyes Madara logically

Now you are using flawed logic. He doesn't have Kaguya's power, at best he only has power on par with Ghost Hagoromo at full power, and that's not counting the Juubi for the latter. Naruto and Sasuke each got half of that Hagoromo's power, so they should be around half of Madara's power individually.....but then add the power Naruto and Sasuke have at VotE (Excess Nature Energy and 9 Bijuu) to their half of Hagoromo's power, they're on par with Madara individually.

From where all that power come from and match with Man that have Progenitor(Kaguya) power plus Progenitor own son(Hagoromo) power?

He doesn't have Kaguya's power.

If you'll said Hagoromo power, what exactly Hagoromo gave to them, abilities upgrade or abilities+Hagoromo chakra upgrade?

He gave them his chakra, which gave them the abilities.

If you all said abilities upgrade, there is no logic for them to be powerful as 3 eyes Madara as Madara still superior to them by having body+eyes+chakra.

If you all said abilities+Hagoromo chakra, I can say logic is present there but how much chakra Hagoromo have and how much chakra Hagoromo split between them. But still with Hagoromo chakra adding, there is no way their chakra equaling 3 eyes Madara chakra especially for Sasuke case.

Hagoromo took his full chakra, and split it in half to give to Naruto and Sasuke. Half each. And yes, that alone isn't putting them on Madara's level, but add the bijuu and Nature Energy, and it does.

If you all say chakra potency and quality, 3 eyes Madara also having very potent and quality chakra. And again, still I dont believe that reason is logical because their chakra quality and potency still below Juubi jin level logically.

There is no logic that puts a Juubi Jin's chakra quality above that of Hagoromo's.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Uh-huh



No. Juubi is not as strong as Kaguya is. Manga shows this.




Now you are using flawed logic. He doesn't have Kaguya's power, at best he only has power on par with Ghost Hagoromo at full power, and that's not counting the Juubi for the latter. Naruto and Sasuke each got half of that Hagoromo's power, so they should be around half of Madara's power individually.....but then add the power Naruto and Sasuke have at VotE (Excess Nature Energy and 9 Bijuu) to their half of Hagoromo's power, they're on par with Madara individually.




He doesn't have Kaguya's power.


He gave them his chakra, which gave them the abilities.



Hagoromo took his full chakra, and split it in half to give to Naruto and Sasuke. Half each. And yes, that alone isn't putting them on Madara's level, but add the bijuu and Nature Energy, and it does.



There is no logic that puts a Juubi Jin's chakra quality above that of Hagoromo's.

I dont said Progenitor as to mean Madara power=Kaguya power, I'm just referring to Juubi or Kaguya as progenitor.

When we said about Progenitor, the being that start it all, there is no brainer for humans below them is on par with them

Its sound not right when peoples said Juubi is weak, Juubi is or can be surpass by humans although he is progenitor of the world because that I said those logic use by manga is wierd.

Juubi is not weak from my POV but he just unable to concentrated his own power, only inside jin or turning into Kaguya the only way for Juubi able to shows its true potentials although much of his power is control by Jins and Kaguya is self explanatory.


And anything else can be acceptable by me although much of it looks like more about assumption/speculation from your POV to me.

 

[KidGamer65]

I dont said Progenitor as to mean Madara power=Kaguya power, I'm just referring to Juubi or Kaguya as progenitor.

Uh...ok.

When we said about Progenitor, the being that start it all, there is no brainer for humans below them is on par with them

No, there isn't. If no human could beat "the progenitor" then Kaguya would have defeated Hagoromo and Hamura, yet it was the opposite.

When peoples said Juubi is weak, Juubi is or can be surpass by humans although he is progenitor of the world sound not right, because that I said those logic use by manga is wierd.

Juubi is not weak but he just unable to concentrated his own power, only inside jin or turning into Kaguya the only way for Juubi able to shows its true potentials although much of his power is control by Jins and Kaguya is self explanatory.

I know, yet JJ Obito is not on Naruto, Sasuke, Hagoromo (w/o Juubi) or Kaguya's level.

And anything else can be acceptable by me although much of it looks like more about assumpton/speculation from your POV to me.

Everything I said is backed by manga evidence. I'm not seeing how Madara is stronger, and I'm seeing is you saying the Juubi is the progenitor, so it's automatically better, which makes no sense.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Uh...ok.


No, there isn't. If no human could beat "the progenitor" then Kaguya would have defeated Hagoromo and Hamura, yet it was the opposite.


When peoples said Juubi is weak, Juubi is or can be surpass by humans although he is progenitor of the world sound not right, because that I said those logic use by manga is wierd.



I know, yet JJ Obito is not on Naruto, Sasuke, Hagoromo (w/o Juubi) or Kaguya's level.



Everything I said is backed by manga evidence. I'm not seeing how Madara is stronger, and I'm seeing is you saying the Juubi is the progenitor, so it's automatically better, which makes no sense.

-But Hagoromo and Hamura not defeated her alone, same as 3 eyes Madara case. Even defeating someone have its own category.

1)Defeating progenitor very soundly or low diff either by team work or individual(individual is better), this category of winning can label someone as surpassing the progenitor
2)Defeating progenitor mid diff either by team work or individual(individual is better), this category of winning can label someone as on par with progenitor
3)Defeating progenitor hard diff either by team work or individual(individual is batter), this category of winning can label someone as still below progenitor.

Keep in mind this thread is about individual not team work, and what I mean about surpassing is actually on individual level

like this-
Is Naruto or Sasuke or Hagoromo or Hamura surpassing Kaguya in individual level?

Is Naruto or Sasuke surpassing 3 eyes Madara in individual level?

Kaguya as what she shown to us sure able to defeating Hagoromo and Hamura individually, and I said The brothers duo defeating Kaguya mid diff with some struggle in the past.

Its because to defeat someone by sealing is less problematic than killing them if you are fight with very powerful opponents that your level is below them. What you need is strategy like what team 7 shown although they are weaker than Kaguya.

-The Juubi is progenitor and sure are better is not out of context or unlogical because I'm able to look deeper and analyse what Naruto manga shown to me.

My POV is not just from manga as what you like to said but I tried to understand other meaning, context of subject, hidden matters etc.

I got many thing to post here but I stop right here.