Sharingan/Byakugan - Rinnegan/Tenseigan

[Kai NB]

I would like to start off by saying that equal does not mean every aspect lines up evenly, but rather different strengths in different areas can be different, but overall the skills are equal. So let us begin.

If we were to do a branch of the powers, there would not only be Kaguya on the top, but rather Kaguya and the Chakra fruit at the top. They can be considered the "parents" of the the following powers. Kaguya, being an Otsutsuki, brought the byakugan to the genetic table. The Chakra fruit brought the rinnesharingan to the table. From here the split begins, with Hamura inheriting his mother's Otsutsuki blood stronger, and Hagoromo inheriting his mother's Chakra fruit chakra stronger. In other words, Hamura is a purer Otsutsuki than Hagoromo, and thus his bloodline maintained that genetic purity (byakugan and, though much sacrifice, tenseigan.) The byakugan and the rinnegan are NOT supposed to be comparable, Hagoromo and Hamura are supposed to be comparable.

Now let us continue the breakdown. For now Hamura is not really necessary, as all he has to offer is purer chakra (being one of the first two people to be born with chakra) and the byakugan to his descendants. Let us consider Hagoromo. From the beginning, he was a mutant, because I am willing to debate that he is the first and only Otsutsuki to not be born with the byakugan. This is because his chakra was more influenced by the chakra fruit than his brother's, and we see that in his rinnegan. In other words, Hagoromo carried the Shinju genes and Hamura the Otsutsuki. Hagoromo's rinnegan then degraded into the sharingan for one of his sons/descendants, and strong chakra (later wood release from the shinju) in the other. It makes no sense in comparing Hagoromo descendants across to Hamura descendants, because the powers are meant to be radically different.

What do you think?

Good point

 

[shelke]

I would like to start off by saying that equal does not mean every aspect lines up evenly, but rather different strengths in different areas can be different, but overall the skills are equal. So let us begin.

If we were to do a branch of the powers, there would not only be Kaguya on the top, but rather Kaguya and the Chakra fruit at the top. They can be considered the "parents" of the the following powers. Kaguya, being an Otsutsuki, brought the byakugan to the genetic table. The Chakra fruit brought the rinnesharingan to the table. From here the split begins, with Hamura inheriting his mother's Otsutsuki blood stronger, and Hagoromo inheriting his mother's Chakra fruit chakra stronger. In other words, Hamura is a purer Otsutsuki than Hagoromo, and thus his bloodline maintained that genetic purity (byakugan and, though much sacrifice, tenseigan.) The byakugan and the rinnegan are NOT supposed to be comparable, Hagoromo and Hamura are supposed to be comparable.

Now let us continue the breakdown. For now Hamura is not really necessary, as all he has to offer is purer chakra (being one of the first two people to be born with chakra) and the byakugan to his descendants. Let us consider Hagoromo. From the beginning, he was a mutant, because I am willing to debate that he is the first and only Otsutsuki to not be born with the byakugan. This is because his chakra was more influenced by the chakra fruit than his brother's, and we see that in his rinnegan. In other words, Hagoromo carried the Shinju genes and Hamura the Otsutsuki. Hagoromo's rinnegan then degraded into the sharingan for one of his sons/descendants, and strong chakra (later wood release from the shinju) in the other. It makes no sense in comparing Hagoromo descendants across to Hamura descendants, because the powers are meant to be radically different.

What do you think?

I agree with everything expect the strong chakra part, as Indra inherited the genes. Ashura technically developed his own chakra. He never inherited his father's strong chakra genes.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

I agree with everything expect the strong chakra part, as Indra inherited the genes. Ashura technically developed his own chakra. He never inherited his father's strong chakra genes.

Indra did in fact inherit the lion's share of his father's chakra/ability potential, but Ashura was also Hagoromo's son, so it's impossible to say that he didn't get ANYTHING. I am sure that he was born with chakra, making him the fourth person in the world to ever be born with chakra (and being directly connected by blood to the progenitor) but he just lacked the aptitude of his brother.

Also, his descendant/reincarnation Hashirama had wood release, and the manga made a subtle, but very important link between the Shinju and wood release (the Shinju being a tree, Madara/Kaguya in the past using a divine version of Hashirama's technique, and also the fact that no one else in the manga naturally had wood release.) This had to have come from somewhere in the Ashura bloodline, and though not apparent in Ashura himself, Ashura was certainly a carrier for the chakra/genetic potential.

What do you think?

 

[Kai NB]

Indra did in fact inherit the lion's share of his father's chakra/ability potential, but Ashura was also Hagoromo's son, so it's impossible to say that he didn't get ANYTHING. I am sure that he was born with chakra, making him the fourth person in the world to ever be born with chakra (and being directly connected by blood to the progenitor) but he just lacked the aptitude of his brother.

Also, his descendant/reincarnation Hashirama had wood release, and the manga made a subtle, but very important link between the Shinju and wood release (the Shinju being a tree, Madara/Kaguya in the past using a divine version of Hashirama's technique, and also the fact that no one else in the manga naturally had wood release.) This had to have come from somewhere in the Ashura bloodline, and though not apparent in Ashura himself, Ashura was certainly a carrier for the chakra/genetic potential.

What do you think?

Good point

 

[neosmith500]

I just wanted to say that I have a pet peeve with things that are not equal when they are supposed to be. So this is just a small rant


Anyways, it's basically confirmed that the Tenseigan is meant to rival the Rinnengan in power.

Rinnegan = Hago & Tenseigan = Hamu[/tCENTER]

Where did Hamura unlock it? How come Kaguya didn't have it? In fact, Kaguya had a superior dojutsu to Rinnegan, the Rinne Sharingan (9 Tomoe Rinnegan) and when she had children, it got downgraded into a normal Rinnegan. So why did Hamura get the same level dojutsu, the Byakugan? It wasn't even downgraded. It was even on par with his brother's.

---

What also bothers me?

Sharingan - Mangekyo Sharingan - Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan - Rinnegan - Rinne Sharingan

Byakugan - Tenseigan​

...Really? For one, Tenseigan doesn't even match the full potential in the Sharingan evolutionary stages. Two, it's only got one upgrade. Where's my Mangekyo Byakugan? Rotation is some sort of ultimate defense that is perfect right? Why couldn't that be upgraded to be the Byakugan counterpart to Susanoo?

---

So basically, I'm saying the fact that the two are supposed to rival powers and strengths, it bothers me that the process is completely different, when coming from a single lineage (Kaguya), it should be fundamentally the same process for each Dojutsu. Also makes me feel like Kishi nerfed Byakugan way more. Like honestly, 3T Sharingan and Byakugan are actually about the same when you compare strength wise. But with MS, EMS, Rinne, and Rinne Shari, really leaves Byakugan in the dust.

---

Alright, I'm done Lol
Lemme know what you think =D
(Remember to be respectful U_U)​

I dont kno MB Lol the hyuga were ultimately nerfed from reaching their true prowes .

Put shape manipulation required for twin lion fist together with full body chakra control for kaiten and u instantly get a chakra avatar that would give the hyuga a nice boost an its fully plausible too but that kishi Lol

Even adding elements into their jyuken would hav been fittin with the theme of p2 an would give it a nice avatar feel to it given the link with 8 trigams and the elements , but that kishiB-)​

 

[shelke]

Indra did in fact inherit the lion's share of his father's chakra/ability potential, but Ashura was also Hagoromo's son, so it's impossible to say that he didn't get ANYTHING. I am sure that he was born with chakra, making him the fourth person in the world to ever be born with chakra (and being directly connected by blood to the progenitor) but he just lacked the aptitude of his brother.

Also, his descendant/reincarnation Hashirama had wood release, and the manga made a subtle, but very important link between the Shinju and wood release (the Shinju being a tree, Madara/Kaguya in the past using a divine version of Hashirama's technique, and also the fact that no one else in the manga naturally had wood release.) This had to have come from somewhere in the Ashura bloodline, and though not apparent in Ashura himself, Ashura was certainly a carrier for the chakra/genetic potential.

What do you think?

That is what the manga states. So, it doesn't matter what I think. At best, he indirectly inherited a potential from Kaguya. He certainly didn't inherit any from Hogoromo, as the genes that enabled one son to inherit it, were completely absent in the other. I doubt he suddenly sprouted genes out of no where. Hence, the other possibility seems more plausible.

It's not like Kishimoto will ever explain this, but the strong Chakra is Indra's and his descendants' inheritance. Not Ashura's. That is stated in a clear cut manner by Hogoromo himself.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

That is what the manga states. So, it doesn't matter what I think. At best, he indirectly inherited a potential from Kaguya. He certainly didn't inherit any from Hogoromo, as the genes that enabled one son to inherit it, were completely absent in the other. I doubt he suddenly sprouted genes out of no where. Hence, the other possibility seems more plausible.

It's not like Kishimoto will ever explain this, but the strong Chakra is Indra's and his descendants' inheritance. Not Ashura's. That is stated in a clear cut manner by Hogoromo himself.

I can agree with the fact that Ashura most certainly inherited something from someone, be it Hagoromo or Kaguya. I also agree that Hagoromo's power was the inheritance of Indra, especially because "power" is that which was most desired by the Indra line. Ashura instead inherited his father's will. I do not have the manga with me right now, and I am very apprehensive about the English translations found online (they often make nuance mistakes,) but I do remember that there was a slight discrepancy between what the original says and what the translations say.

In either case, that was only a small part of my main topic, that being that byakugan and rinnegan cannot and should not be compared or considered comparable. What do you think?

 

[Bronze]

Nothing stated Tenseigan is equal to Rinnegan, nor Toneri is equal to Madara. It was actually mistranslated.

Rinnegan > Tenseigan > Sharingan > Byakugan.

 

[shelke]

I can agree with the fact that Ashura most certainly inherited something from someone, be it Hagoromo or Kaguya. I also agree that Hagoromo's power was the inheritance of Indra, especially because "power" is that which was most desired by the Indra line. Ashura instead inherited his father's will. I do not have the manga with me right now, and I am very apprehensive about the English translations found online (they often make nuance mistakes,) but I do remember that there was a slight discrepancy between what the original says and what the translations say.

In either case, that was only a small part of my main topic, that being that byakugan and rinnegan cannot and should not be compared or considered comparable. What do you think?

If someone can provide the Viz scan for the page, then, I believe we can solve this quicker. Ashura was given the Ninshuu inheritance, through which, he obviously communicated with the Bijuu and they must have given him their chakra. We saw the repetition of it happen with Naruto. That could very well have been the factor as well.

I did agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Nothing stated Tenseigan is equal to Rinnegan, nor Toneri is equal to Madara. It was actually mistranslated.

Rinnegan > Tenseigan > Sharingan > Byakugan.

I cannot agree with this statement, because better is very relative. I will give you a scenario where the complete opposite is also true (keep in mind, these eyes are only as useful as the role they play on a mission. Remember, ninja missions are the norm, and world wars are the exception.)

There is a mission that involves tracking/finding a certain person and incapacitating them without serious injury, all the while avoiding enemy detection. In this situation I think that the byakugan is the best dojutsu, the sharingan the second best, the rinnegan the third, and the tenseigan highly unnecessary.

What do you think?

 

[elitenoob94]

This is false. We don't know the number of MS users. Yes, they were fewer than the Sharingan users, but gaining MS during times of war wouldn't be a problem for an Uchiha, given the prerequisites involved. In fact, the information on Amaterasu alone outside Konoha is enough to falsify this statement.

@second 5 or 6? That is completely false. Just because the manga shows only this number for MS doesn't mean that in the history of the Clan there have had been only 5 or 6 MS users. Don't be silly.

Probably should go look at your wiki facts. True, there are many more, but the known users with MS is actually 13 people, and given the fact that the entire clan is almost dead besides Sasuke Uchiha and his offspring then you have only 1 known user and 1 possible user.

These are facts. I am not ignorant, but your next argument is invalid.

 

[Rikodou Mode]

He knew people would realize the Uchiha aren't all that. He had Uzumaki exterminated, Neji killed and one single Senju who's probably on menopause.

 

[Styles]

Alot of places



Not of the concern of the thread



Not of the concern of the thread



Not of the concern of the thread



Not of the concern of the thread



Right, but Rinne Sharingan started with Kaguya and Hago got regular Rinnegan. Kaguya got Byakugan and Hamu also got the same. My argument is that, whether it was a mutation or not, Kaguya passed on the dojutsu from it's highest potential, while with the Byakugan, it did not pass on from the highest potential, as a user evolved it after the original.


Well, now you see my claim is made. Like I said, it's not my concern to provide the scans. This whole thread started as a rant, it even said so. If I was making detailed analyses, then I would provide scans and sources.

I wanna know how is it equal with the Rinnegan and where was it said.

 

[Char Aznable]

Indra inherited his father's eyes and spiritual energy.

Asura inherited his father's body and physical energy.

Recall Obito saying he could not control the power of two Rinnegan. And yet kid Nagato (a Senju/Uzumaki) could contrl dual rinnegan since childhood. Also it was Nagato who summoned the Gedo Mazou from the moon to the Earth by using the two rinnegan. A feat no Uchiha could do. Uchiha lack the powerful bodies and vitality it takes to control the sage's powers. While the Senju lack the powerful eyes it takes gain the sages powers.

It's why Obito, Madara, Kabuto and Orochimaru all conducted research in to how to integrate the two blood lines together.

Asura was considered a failure in comparison to Indra, the same way that Naruto was considered a failure when compared to Sasuke. Naruto and presumably Asura had to work hard for their power. While everything came easy to Sasuke and Indra. With the Sharingan, picking up any technique or fighting style would presumably be easy by virtue of the sharingan's abilities. Take the sharingan away from any Uchiha (Obito, Sasuke, Itachi, Madara) and then judge what level you think they would be on. They would be unremarkable without their sharingan jutsus to fall back on.

 

[shelke]

Probably should go look at your wiki facts. True, there are many more, but the known users with MS is actually 13 people, and given the fact that the entire clan is almost dead besides Sasuke Uchiha and his offspring then you have only 1 known user and 1 possible user.

These are facts. I am not ignorant, but your next argument is invalid.

Not really, it's called story evidence and implicature. Didn't you learn that? You should, as you seem to have little grasp of that. Known and unknown is not even a matter of debate here. Did you know the entire number of users with Sharingan? Nope. Did you know how many abused Izanagi? No. Did you know how many sacrificed MS to learn its secrets for EMS? No. So guess what it is? It's called picking up the bread crumbs, given that the manga delineates the history, but never points out the numbers.

Shouldn't be that hard to find validity in the so-called invalid statements.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Sorry to burst the bubble here.

Only way to gain 9 Tomoe Sharingan is when you have Kaguya/Juubi inside your body.

The farthest you can go by having Hagoromo chakra(Indra+Ashura chakra) is Rinnegan, be it double Rinnegan or Tomoe Rinnegan.

The technique that 9 Tomoe Saringan have is IT, Amenominaka, and Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Consider that tomoe on Sasuke Rinnegan is some requirement needed to achieve a form of S/T jutsu.

I dont want to speculate here, but I think there is some Rinnegan ability that Hagoromo sacrifice to allow Sasuke's Rinnegan gain S/T jutsu.

 

[Neji Hyūga2]

I completely agree with everything you've said. In theory it should be equal but it isn't. Kishi just had a massive hard on for Uchiha and he just ran away with it when it came to powers. Literally giving them everything possible.

 

[shelke]

I completely agree with everything you've said. In theory it should be equal but it isn't. Kishi just had a massive hard on for Uchiha and he just ran away with it when it came to powers. Literally giving them everything possible.

That's rubbish. It's called preference from the author, not raging hard on. He invested a lot into a clan with proper clan metaphors. Just like many other writers do for other characters.

 

[King Of Pop]

Indra inherited his father's eyes and spiritual energy.

Asura inherited his father's body and physical energy.

Recall Obito saying he could not control the power of two Rinnegan. And yet kid Nagato (a Senju/Uzumaki) could contrl dual rinnegan since childhood. Also it was Nagato who summoned the Gedo Mazou from the moon to the Earth by using the two rinnegan. A feat no Uchiha could do. Uchiha lack the powerful bodies and vitality it takes to control the sage's powers. While the Senju lack the powerful eyes it takes gain the sages powers.

It's why Obito, Madara, Kabuto and Orochimaru all conducted research in to how to integrate the two blood lines together.

Asura was considered a failure in comparison to Indra, the same way that Naruto was considered a failure when compared to Sasuke. Naruto and presumably Asura had to work hard for their power. While everything came easy to Sasuke and Indra. With the Sharingan, picking up any technique or fighting style would presumably be easy by virtue of the sharingan's abilities. Take the sharingan away from any Uchiha (Obito, Sasuke, Itachi, Madara) and then judge what level you think they would be on. They would be unremarkable without their sharingan jutsus to fall back on.

what? it is an actually an uchiha in madara who summoned it, did so at his old age, read the manga.

 

[INTROSPECTIVE]

I completely agree with everything you've said. In theory it should be equal but it isn't. Kishi just had a massive hard on for Uchiha and he just ran away with it when it came to powers. Literally giving them everything possible.

I concur, irrespective of my fondness for most of the Uchihas. Naruto became sorely unvaried due to the incessant focus on them.

LOTS of characters with potential, yet less than half received proper DEVELOPMENT. It is unnerving.

OT: My two cents. I understood it more as a correlation versus a comparison between the two. Meaning, both parallel and one cannot cancel out the other (i.e. are equal in terms of base power on the dojutsu scale). Which one is more powerful comparatively is actually subjective, as that would VARY and be determined strictly from user to user.

The Rinnegan has its foundations heavily rooted in the manga, hence we have seen more of its potential tapped (i.e. MADARA, NAGATO, etcetera). The Tenseigan, conversely, only has its foundations in a two hour movie (which automatically puts it at a disadvantage comparatively) and only one user (i.e. TONERI) thus far.

Ergo, most comparisons drawn between the two are false analogies in retrospect because we simply do not have enough pertinent information on the overall abilities and capabilities of the Tenseigan.

I simply see such comparisons as dubious at best, given the little information provided to us on the Tenseigan, and the little exposure it was given on the battlefield compared to the Rinnegan.​