Danzō Shimura vs Mū

Lariatoo

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If the sharingan can see trought Muu's invisiblity (since only KA is restricted, not the eye itself) then Danzo wins. If not, eleven minutes straight of sneak killings grants Muu the win.
 

ARGUS

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Muu wins this mid diff

--He stays invisible throughout this fight and slits danzos throat whenever he feels like it, therefore forcing him to use izanagi in-order to survive, and allowing muu to simply finish his reserves

--Sharingan isnt seeing through muus invisibility either, not when he completely hides his chakra, and when sharingan only locates through seeing chakra, so danzo would be constantly getting killed till he runs out of izanagi

--Muu being a sensor as well as the fact that he has good reflexes,and cant be seen, means that danzos izanagi respawns arent helping him either, when he wont have a single clue on where muu is,

--Baku is just getting jintond right off the bat, its just a big target for it, and muu can simply fly out of its suction range to ensure that it gets turned to dust, without him being afffected,
 

TRE MERCER

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Danzo wins.

The moment Mu kills Danzo the first time he comes back and summon Baku Mu won't get very far so Baku suction will work on him he either gets sucked up or tries Jinton and he does Danzo repeats what he did against Susanoo on Mu and it's game over.
 

Apêx1

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Can it, though? Doesn't Mū also remove his chakra signature, erasing his presence from the sight of the Sharingan?
Erasing your chakra is merely in a chakra sensory context, otherwise he'd die since having no chakra means death. He merely hides/suppresses his chakra like Karin does, while camouflaging so that the naked eye can no longer see him. However, chakra is still there, so if a Sharingan looks his way, it'll still see the chakra there, as it actually is there; but it's being suppressed so that sensors cannot sense it.
 

LuckyMan

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Erasing your chakra is merely in a chakra sensory context, otherwise he'd die since having no chakra means death. He merely hides/suppresses his chakra like Karin does, while camouflaging so that the naked eye can no longer see him. However, chakra is still there, so if a Sharingan looks his way, it'll still see the chakra there, as it actually is there; but it's being suppressed so that sensors cannot sense it.
If that was the case then Byakugan users and basic sensors would be able to see him as well since they see chakra too.
 

Beans2

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Proof of Byakugan user presence? And fail analogy with the chakra sensors, they sense chakra; not see it.
Sensing chakra is literally no different from seeing it. Yes, Mu's chakra is still there but he supresses it so it's not detectable. If it isn't able to be sensed with chakra-based sensing then it isn't able to be seen with chakra-seeing dojutsu. If his chakra was still there and visible to sharingan users then sensors would have no trouble detecting him. It's that simple. His chakra would look transparent to a sharingan user.

OT: I see Danzo winning with Baku. YounqDebater's argument actually makes sense.
 

Apêx1

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Sensing chakra is literally no different from seeing it. Yes, Mu's chakra is still there but he supresses it so it's not detectable. If it isn't able to be sensed with chakra-based sensing then it isn't able to be seen with chakra-seeing dojutsu. If his chakra was still there and visible to sharingan users then sensors would have no trouble detecting him. It's that simple. His chakra would look transparent to a sharingan user.

OT: I see Danzo winning with Baku. YounqDebater's argument actually makes sense.
We've had this debate twice in the past and both times you ended up 'leaving' after 3-4 posts. No reason for me to argue with you on this matter again when your lack of ability to make a solid counter for my previous points is abundant. But yes, sensing and seeing could not be more different from each other. Karin suppresses her chakra, it still exists though, and if it exists that means it's inside her body, and if it's inside her body then the Sharingan will see the very chakra residing within that body. Not going to start posting scans or take this seriously, it'll be a waste of time if I do, since the debate has been held before, and you agree that Danzo wins.
 

Beans2

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We've had this debate twice in the past and both times you ended up 'leaving' after 3-4 posts. No reason for me to argue with you on this matter again when your lack of ability to make a solid counter for my previous points is abundant.
Cool. I got caught up in a Kakashi vs Mu debate which took priority over my argument with your claim which I've already countered in the past. Nor did you bring any solid points to the table or even a single relevant manga scan so there was no point in responding.

But yes, sensing and seeing could not be more different from each other. Karin suppresses her chakra, it still exists though, and if it exists that means it's inside her body, and if it's inside her body then the Sharingan will see the very chakra residing within that body. Not going to start posting scans or take this seriously, it'll be a waste of time if I do, since the debate has been held before, and you agree that Danzo wins.
Your entire argument revolves around "his chakra still exists so it can still be seen." No. His chakra still exists yet he was undetectable by sensors who could not sense his chakra so this point is completely moot. Does his chakra exist? Yes. Is it detectable by sensing? Nope. Is it detectable with dojutsu? Not a single damn reason why it would be. You haven't come up with an explanation as to how seeing chakra would be any different than sensing it in terms of detecting someone who supresses their chakra. If you don't want to argue with me you don't have to but you won't be taken seriously in any thread where Mu is pitted against a character with dojutsu since most people on the base agree that he can't be seen with dojutsu if he supresses his chakra.
 

Apêx1

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Cool. I got caught up in a Kakashi vs Mu debate which took priority over my argument with your claim which I've already countered in the past. Nor did you bring any solid points to the table or even a single relevant manga scan so there was no point in responding.
Lol, what? We debated this twice, and at both points you stopped replying to me. In the first thread, EVERYONE agreed with me and you just decided to make a run for it. That's not countering.... The second time, as you just said, you prioritised something else. So where exactly is the time in which you "countered in the past"? And there was about 10-15 manga scans and 2-3 DB statements in my argument, while yours had what; 2-3? Let's not be strawmen here Beansandcornbread..

Your entire argument revolves around "his chakra still exists so it can still be seen." No. His chakra still exists yet he was undetectable by sensors who could not sense his chakra so this point is completely moot. Does his chakra exist? Yes. Is it detectable by sensing? Nope. Is it detectable with dojutsu? Not a single damn reason why it would be. You haven't come up with an explanation as to how seeing chakra would be any different than sensing it in terms of detecting someone who supresses their chakra. If you don't want to argue with me you don't have to but you won't be taken seriously in any thread where Mu is pitted against a character with dojutsu since most people on the base agree that he can't be seen with dojutsu if he supresses his chakra.
Copy pasting my old argument;
Mu's chakra is still present, it's just suppressed. Unless he has 0 chakra in his entire body, I see no reason as to why Sharingan cannot see his chakra unless he is inexistent at that particular time at all, which isn't the case. One thing to note, sensing could very well simply be a refined version of feeling chakra as characters that aren't sensors have shown since the very beginning [ ][ ][ ], it's rather clear that powerful/large in quantity chakra can be sensed/felt by non-sensors, whereas sensors can likely do the same thing on a much more intricate level. However, removing any feeling your chakra gives away would imply that the camouflage is in fact immune to sensors, whereas a Sharingan user would still have the ability to see the chakra that is present in ever living person in NV. You can conceal Chakra from sensors, you cannot extinguish chakra from existence and bring it back.
And even here [ ], you can see Orochimaru referring to them being able to "feel his chakra despite not being sensors" meaning sensors merely feel chakra better than the average Shinobi. They do not sense every trace of chakra or see every trace of chakra, they merely feel its presence. How can they "feel" it when it's being suppressed? Does that give reason to assume that if it's not able to be felt, it's not capable of being seen? Nope.

Sharingan sees the faintest traces of chakra [ ][ ], Mu is not hiding from the Sharingan. There's no debate here, at all. It will be seen as it is there. Sharingan sees faint traces of chakra through objects and skin/muscle. Mu's body will be entirely explored, meaning the chakra will be perceived, meaning Mu's location is discovered.
 

Beans2

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Mu's chakra is still present, it's just suppressed. Unless he has 0 chakra in his entire body, I see no reason as to why Sharingan cannot see his chakra unless he is inexistent at that particular time at all, which isn't the case. One thing to note, sensing could very well simply be a refined version of feeling chakra as characters that aren't sensors have shown since the very beginning [x][x][x], it's rather clear that powerful/large in quantity chakra can be sensed/felt by non-sensors, whereas sensors can likely do the same thing on a much more intricate level. However, removing any feeling your chakra gives away would imply that the camouflage is in fact immune to sensors, whereas a Sharingan user would still have the ability to see the chakra that is present in ever living person in NV. You can conceal Chakra from sensors, you cannot extinguish chakra from existence and bring it back.
Except there's no proof that sensing is a refined way of feeling chakra like non-sensors do, so it's just speculation on your part that Mu is simply lowering his chakra to where it can't be detected. And people without dojutsu have seen chakra in large quantities just like people without sensing abilities have felt it.

And even here [ ], you can see Orochimaru referring to them being able to "feel his chakra despite not being sensors" meaning sensors merely feel chakra better than the average Shinobi. They do not sense every trace of chakra or see every trace of chakra, they merely feel its presence. How can they "feel" it when it's being suppressed? Does that give reason to assume that if it's not able to be felt, it's not capable of being seen? Nope.

Sharingan sees the faintest traces of chakra [ ][ ], Mu is not hiding from the Sharingan. There's no debate here, at all. It will be seen as it is there. Sharingan sees faint traces of chakra through objects and skin/muscle. Mu's body will be entirely explored, meaning the chakra will be perceived, meaning Mu's location is discovered.
They can't feel chakra when it's being suppressed. Sensors never have been able to detect suppressed chakra, just like sharingan can't. Your argument that 'sharingan perceives Mu because his chakra still exists' falls apart, since Mu's chakra still existed when he went invisible against the SA and yet his chakra which still existed couldn't be sensed at all.
 

Apêx1

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Except there's no proof that sensing is a refined way of feeling chakra like non-sensors do, so it's just speculation on your part that Mu is simply lowering his chakra to where it can't be detected. And people without dojutsu have seen chakra in large quantities just like people without sensing abilities have felt it.
What? I showed you Orochimaru's statement, they "felt chakra despite not being sensors". Meaning sensors also feel chakra. There is no mangaphax or gtfo argument in this situation, as it is entirely implicative by Oro's own statement. @bold Point? The faintest chakra can be seen..

They can't feel chakra when it's being suppressed. Sensors never have been able to detect suppressed chakra, just like sharingan can't. Your argument that 'sharingan perceives Mu because his chakra still exists' falls apart, since Mu's chakra still existed when he went invisible against the SA and yet his chakra which still existed couldn't be sensed at all.
And you show that you have no counter for anything I said. Your argument goes down the drain because you countered nothing. If you really cannot distinguish between seeing and feeling, then there's no point in debating, because even my 8 year old brother can distinguish such. Your entire counter is based around sensing=seeing when Oro said sensing is feeling, and feeling is not seeing. Imagine all the air in the world was perceivable and as normal air, capable of being felt. Put it all in a small box and you won't feel it anymore, but you'll definitely still see it because it's still there. It doesn't get any simpler than this. You have yet to counter , which shows Sasuke seeing extremely faint chakra within a body. This means he'll be able to see Mu's chakra, until you prove why he cannot see him. Does he have some kind of Sharingan reflector shield I don't know of?...
 

Beans2

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What? I showed you Orochimaru's statement, they "felt chakra despite not being sensors". Meaning sensors also feel chakra. There is no mangaphax or gtfo argument in this situation, as it is entirely implicative by Oro's own statement. @bold Point? The faintest chakra can be seen..
There was nothing to counter in the first place since you didn't have an argument that's not speculation. You say Mu's chakra suppression is just lowering his chakra until it isn't detectable by sensors - where's your proof?

And you show that you have no counter for anything I said. Your argument goes down the drain because you countered nothing. If you really cannot distinguish between seeing and feeling, then there's no point in debating, because even my 8 year old brother can distinguish such. Your entire counter is based around sensing=seeing when Oro said sensing is feeling, and feeling is not seeing. Imagine all the air in the world was perceivable and as normal air, capable of being felt. Put it all in a small box and you won't feel it anymore, but you'll definitely still see it because it's still there. It doesn't get any simpler than this. You have yet to counter , which shows Sasuke seeing extremely faint chakra within a body. This means he'll be able to see Mu's chakra, until you prove why he cannot see him. Does he have some kind of Sharingan reflector shield I don't know of?...
Give me proof that Mu's chakra suppression is him just lowering his chakra levels rather than suppressing them completely then we can talk.
 

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1- There is a difference between stamina and chakra. You don't die if your chakra reach zero. You only die if your stamina reach zero. Stamina is what is used to create chakra and that chakra is what is used in nin/genjutsu battles

2- Mu isn't lowering his chakra when using his invisible mode. He is hiding it. It's a technique Karin can do as well(except she can't turn invisible to boot) [ ]
 

Apêx1

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There was nothing to counter in the first place since you didn't have an argument that's not speculation. You say Mu's chakra suppression is just lowering his chakra until it isn't detectable by sensors - where's your proof?
What? That's how it is until you prove otherwise. You cannot state that Mu uses something and not explain what the ability is. You are the one saying Mu suppresses his chakra. I told you how it works, if you don't like my hypothesis, then you can go ahead and make your own (which only has 2 possibilities I already addressed, hiding and lowering it). Till then, the point stands. Hiding it or suppressing it are the only two possibilities, and both won't make him immune to the Sharingan.

[qoute]Give me proof that Mu's chakra suppression is him just lowering his chakra levels rather than suppressing them completely then we can talk.[/QUOTE]

I'll just copy and paste because my second part of the post had nothing to do with chakra suppression.
If you really cannot distinguish between seeing and feeling, then there's no point in debating, because even my 8 year old brother can distinguish such. Your entire counter is based around sensing=seeing when Oro said sensing is feeling, and feeling is not seeing. Imagine all the air in the world was perceivable and as normal air, capable of being felt. Put it all in a small box and you won't feel it anymore, but you'll definitely still see it because it's still there. It doesn't get any simpler than this. You have yet to counter this, which shows Sasuke seeing extremely faint chakra within a body. This means he'll be able to see Mu's chakra, until you prove why he cannot see him. Does he have some kind of Sharingan reflector shield I don't know of?...
I am clearly addressing hiding chakra with my analogy, not suppressing; the only other option for Mu's chakra suppression. Either way, unless you can make a counter argument for this, then there's no point in you perpetuating your inexistent argument.

1- There is a difference between stamina and chakra. You don't die if your chakra reach zero. You only die if your stamina reach zero. Stamina is what is used to create chakra and that chakra is what is used in nin/genjutsu battles
No, there isn't. If your stamina is zero, your chakra is too and vice versa.

2- Mu isn't lowering his chakra when using his invisible mode. He is hiding it. It's a technique Karin can do as well(except she can't turn invisible to boot) [ ]
And how does that help make him immune to the Sharingan again?
 

Beans2

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What? That's how it is until you prove otherwise. You cannot state that Mu uses something and not explain what the ability is. You are the one saying Mu suppresses his chakra. I told you how it works, if you don't like my hypothesis, then you can go ahead and make your own (which only has 2 possibilities I already addressed, hiding and lowering it). Till then, the point stands. Hiding it or suppressing it are the only two possibilities, and both won't make him immune to the Sharingan.

I'll just copy and paste because my second part of the post had nothing to do with chakra suppression.

I am clearly addressing hiding chakra with my analogy, not suppressing; the only other option for Mu's chakra suppression. Either way, unless you can make a counter argument for this, then there's no point in you perpetuating your inexistent argument.
Wait, why would his chakra be visible if he's hiding his chakra? I am so confused by your logic that at this point I don't know what you're trying to say. This is my train of thought, please explain yours without overcomplicating things, in as few words as possible.

>Mu can't be detected by sensors who use-chakra based sensing
>Mu can't mold chakra while invisible just like how Karin can't mold chakra when she is hiding her chakra
>This means that Mu hides his chakra
>If Mu's chakra is still present, why can't sensors detect that chakra?
>Conclusion: Mu's chakra isn't present
>Conclusion: Sharingan can't see chakra that's not present

Your argument seems to be that "his chakra is still present, so it can be seen" but let me ask you...if his chakra is still present, then why can't it be sensed?
 
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