It hath been confirm'd
- Thread starter LeSauce
- Start date
Okay, wtf? I never said that I believe you need the Genjutsu to summon him. I SAID THAT it's easy to form a contract with an UNWILLING party when you have them UNDER YOUR CONTROL. And that is exactly what Madara did to Kurama. The first time he made contact with the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox, he put him under a strong Genjutsu (after a little dialogue).
..........just wtf...
Pumpkin Ninja
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UzumakiWade
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Pleb, Genjutsu =/= Fuinjutsu, pleb. How do we even know if Madara didn't create a contract? It makes more sense then saying genjutsu means you create an invisible contract with your beast. Unless you mean that for example, if someone placed Naruto's toad summons under genjutsu, would that mean the contract with mystically become theirs? Madara could have created a contract, let Obito sign the contract and thats why he could summon kyuubi. The reason he couldn't do it before is because Kushina had kyuubi.
That's exactly what im saying....wait, what were we even talking about again? im confused.
The Sach
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Okay so there is too much confusion here, between Summon, Contracts and Bijuus.
So I will start it with summoning contract. Summoning is basically a space time type ninjutsu.
Summoning needs you to sign the contract with the animal, that you wish to summon. Kurama on the other hand can't have summoning contract, as he is a bijuu and not a summon, since summons are the animals that are alike and reside at their own place.
Kurama isn't an animal, it is just a chakra beast.
But then about the scans you mentioned, how can they perform summoning without contract?
That is due to the nature of summoning jutsu, that is it is a space time ninjutsu, which require seals and formula to perform, such as FTG. In this case, contract isn't there, because this isn't pure summoning, but a 'forced summoning' and hence Obito and Madara can perform summoning jutsu, because they know the formula or seal, which is same in both the cases(look at above scans). Just like summoning tatoos can be used to summon creatures. Contract is just a way to put it in a sophisticated way and make the process quick.
Although in latter case, Madara failed because dimension inside Naruto isn't accessible from 'outside', typically from large distance.
Now, what Minato did here?
He simply freed Kurama from control, but didn't do something about contract, since there wasn't any contract, but just a formula, which Obito can remember and summon him again.
OT-Sasuke can't summon Kurama because he never got any info about how to do it.
He simply knows how to control Kurama, which is via genjutsu, but it is released now and hence Kurama isn't Sasuke's asset.
So I will start it with summoning contract. Summoning is basically a space time type ninjutsu.
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That is it instantly makes creatures from a separate space to appear in front of you.Summoning needs you to sign the contract with the animal, that you wish to summon. Kurama on the other hand can't have summoning contract, as he is a bijuu and not a summon, since summons are the animals that are alike and reside at their own place.
Kurama isn't an animal, it is just a chakra beast.
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But then about the scans you mentioned, how can they perform summoning without contract?
That is due to the nature of summoning jutsu, that is it is a space time ninjutsu, which require seals and formula to perform, such as FTG. In this case, contract isn't there, because this isn't pure summoning, but a 'forced summoning' and hence Obito and Madara can perform summoning jutsu, because they know the formula or seal, which is same in both the cases(look at above scans). Just like summoning tatoos can be used to summon creatures. Contract is just a way to put it in a sophisticated way and make the process quick.
Although in latter case, Madara failed because dimension inside Naruto isn't accessible from 'outside', typically from large distance.
Now, what Minato did here?
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He simply freed Kurama from control, but didn't do something about contract, since there wasn't any contract, but just a formula, which Obito can remember and summon him again.
OT-Sasuke can't summon Kurama because he never got any info about how to do it.
He simply knows how to control Kurama, which is via genjutsu, but it is released now and hence Kurama isn't Sasuke's asset.
End of Days
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Sharingan genjutsu does not forge a contract, you can however control the beast however and then force a contract since its under your control, madara did it after he met with kyuubi in the wild and obito did it after taking it out and before going to konoha
In an attempt to appear a smartass, you have made a fool yourself.
Negged and reported for insulting the members, hope you get banned
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In an attempt to appear a smartass, you have made a fool yourself.
Negged and reported for insulting the members, hope you get banned
You must be registered for see links
No mention of it at all, not even a smidge. No mention of Bijuu even having a contract, and proof that Obito could summon Kurama by simply putting him in genjutsu along with Gedo Mazou and Rinnegan summons proving that not all summons need a contract. Occams Razor.
UzumakiWade
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It was never stated that you can't create a contract, neither was it stated that genjutsu allowed the caster to make the beast under their control as their summons. Also, lets say this genjutsu turning animals into kuchiyose is true, Madara put the entire world in genjutsu, how come he couldn't summon all of them? Also, how do we know the genjutsu Obito and Madara used is the same genjutsu Sasuke used. That's the thing, we don't, its an unanswered plot-hole that can only be answered by assumptions like you and i are doing.
Manga shows Obito putting Kurama in genjustu, then summoning it. Manga shows Madara putting Kurama in genjutsu, then summoning it years later.
Manga shows a basic genjustu being used in all situations, not even worthy of a name.
That's assuming he has a contract with them. Without a contract, like the Gedo Mazou or Rinnegan summons, the Rinnegan users naturally summon them. Just like Obito summoned Kurama without knowing the seals either.
UzumakiWade
Active member
Show me Madara placing Kurama in a genjutsu when he first encountered him. Also Madara could have forged a contract offscreen. How do you know Sasuke has it is what im asking.
End of days posted the scan, though I can't understand the language.
That's the thing, you have to ASSUME he did, you also have to assume that the Bijuu even have contracts, and that he would have taught Obito about Kurama's contract, and that he would sign him into the scroll.
Because if they could summon him after using simple genjutsu, Sasuke can too, and he put all the Bijuu under genjutsu.
UzumakiWade
Active member
So if he didn't sign a contract and once the genjutsu was released it means he couldn't summon the kyuubi anymore, that means Sasuke can't either.
Scan didn't work for me post it here
The person i was talking to above cleared it all for me, Obito could summon Kyuubi when Kyuubi was under Obito's genjutsu, but when Minato released the genjutsu the link was broken so Obito didn't have kyuubi under his control anymore. Makes sense.
How do you know it was simple genjutsu? No proof that Sasuke learnt it means he can't do it
