Nepotism in Konoha and Why the Uchiha Were Right to Rebel

[KGB Kakuzu]

The Uchiha had every right to rebel and take back their right as a citizen within a political setup that ostracized them. There was no democracy in Konoha to begin with, so it was a tyrannical set up from the start. They were also the founding fathers, hence, after Senju, the village rightfully belonged to them.

Firstly, a village is a collective community of people. Just because they founded it doesn't mean they own it.

Did the Puritans own the United States?!

Did the US belong to the families that comprise the signers of the Declaration of Independence?!


The answer is no. The minute other clans were added they held as much claim as any other clan.



Tyrannical?! Hardly. A tyrannical government is one that is governed by a cruel and oppressive ruler.


Not one Hokage was a tyrant. The closest to a tyrant would be Tobirama...and everything he did was productive.

He made the anbu.
He made the chunin exams.
He out the Uchiha clan in charge of the military police.
He had Uchiha in his own personal squad ==> an Uchiha he respected.


If that's you're tyrant....look again. The Uchiha go ballistic in the face of loss.

Madara
Obito
Sasuke
The amount of Uchiha abusing Izanagi to warrant Izanami

The police system gave them an important village role.
It also protected some of them from experiencing loss on the battlefield.
But note, it did not FORCE Uchiha to go into the MP position.


You say they have a right to rebel?! Do they?!

What right do they have...

To kill their own Konoha shinobi...
To potentially kill innocent civilians...
To risk the lives of their family... Especially civilian Uchiha.
To weaken their village to threaten invasion and distruction?

Because they haven't had an Uchiha Hokage!?
Because they are one of the most respected and noble clan of Konoha?!
Because they were given a specific role in the government unlike any other clan?
Because their shinobi have an option to be MP or be Combat shinobi?
Because they relocated to the village outskirts to be near the Konoha police barricks?!


I'm not seeing a single reason for them to feel opresses, disrespected, or like second class citizens.


In sort: they have no legitimate reason to rebel.

 

[shelke]

Firstly, a village is a collective community of people. Just because they founded it doesn't mean they own it.

Did the Puritans own the United States?!

Did the US belong to the families that comprise the signers of the Declaration of Independence?!


The answer is no. The minute other clans were added they held as much claim as any other clan.



Tyrannical?! Hardly. A tyrannical government is one that is governed by a cruel and oppressive ruler.


Not one Hokage was a tyrant. The closest to a tyrant would be Tobirama...and everything he did was productive.

He made the anbu.
He made the chunin exams.
He out the Uchiha clan in charge of the military police.
He had Uchiha in his own personal squad ==> an Uchiha he respected.


If that's you're tyrant....look again. The Uchiha go ballistic in the face of loss.

Madara
Obito
Sasuke
The amount of Uchiha abusing Izanagi to warrant Izanami

The police system gave them an important village role.
It also protected some of them from experiencing loss on the battlefield.
But note, it did not FORCE Uchiha to go into the MP position.


You say they have a right to rebel?! Do they?!

What right do they have...

To kill their own Konoha shinobi...
To potentially kill innocent civilians...
To risk the lives of their family... Especially civilian Uchiha.
To weaken their village to threaten invasion and distruction?

Because they haven't had an Uchiha Hokage!?
Because they are one of the most respected and noble clan of Konoha?!
Because they were given a specific role in the government unlike any other clan?
Because their shinobi have an option to be MP or be Combat shinobi?
Because they relocated to the village outskirts to be near the Konoha police barricks?!

I'm not seeing a single reason for them to feel opresses, disrespected, or like second class citizens.

In sort: they have no legitimate reason to rebel.

Bringing out a real life political scenario to Naruto is not a wise decision, when in a past lands were owned by aristocracy who had their family tree link up to people that founded or funded small villages. Declaration of independence? You are creating an analogy for an arbitrary system through a democratic constitution? An irrelevant point, so to speak.

A matter of opinion, given the village set up, where one lobby has more control over the rest, especially when it comes to political decisions.

There can be subtle tyranny as well, and it very well found fruition in Konoha's leaders' actions - The breach of treaty by Tobirama, eradicating common voting, eliminating hard-liners, not opting for any dialogue and choosing mass slaughter in its stead. No, I'll take it back. This is far from subtle.

Tobirama ostracized the clan, baring their entry within the political sphere. In this regard, he breached the treaty between the clan that was made on the basis of political equality. Hiruzen did nothing for the Hyuga branch, was content with his arrangements with Danzo, had no proper political motivation to end the spying within the founding clan's strong hold, didn't persecute Danzo when he got innocent children slaughtered.

Adding further to Tobirama's tainted rule, he started this entire mess, given that he never embraced the other clan. He also created chunin exam, adding a clause that children have an option to kill other children, when Hashirama created the village to protect the coming generations rights. His horrendous political system that deprived most ninjas and common public from having a voice within the political set up, as it was up to the Kages to select the next candidates and the select few members within the consecrated council, was also mimicked down to the last T by the rest of the prominent four villages. That is not productivity. He merely gave a guise of policy to common war mongering.

I don't remember Uchiha stating that they wanted to kill civilians. How many civilians do you think Konoha has anyway - given that the village is populated by multiple warring clans? That weakening the village and destruction is such an old argument. Nothing happened when sound and sand attacked Konoha together. No village aided Pein when he reduced it to a rubble. But if Uchiha attack, all hell would break loose? A grand world war was eminent? This isn't even a debatable point.

You probably feel that it is all right to politically marginalize a founding clan by barring their entry through a police force shenanigan, when world over people have rebelled over second class treatment. I suppose they should take your - or NBs - advise and sit back and chill. You believe they didn't have a right? I do. Had their own not demonstrated the depth of depravity known to man, then they would have easily succeeded.

 

[Mikasa Hagaromo]

1. The hokage chooses their successor. Hiruzen chose Minato. Tsunade chose Kakashi. Kakashi chose Naruto, etc... Besides, even if the counsel does get a say in it, the counsel generally chooses based on ideology and those who have the "will of fire" ideals that all of the hokages 1 -7 have had. Yes Danzou and those elders would oppose, but it is not up to them. Danzou and those two elders did not approve of Tsunade or Jiraiya being hokage, but Tsunade actually still became hokage and Jiraiya was suggested by the council on multiple occasions. This is because Tsunade and Jiraiya have the will of fire ideology that Hiruzen and other hokages have.

2. Tobirama never said that they couldn't become law makers. Enforcing is just one job and nobody ever said that they could not move up or do any other job. Heck, Itachi and Shisui became anbu black ops (that is a different job from the police force and it is also a high ranking job). Also, the outskirts are just a geographic location. They still got all the news in Konoha and all of the other luxuries. All they had to do in order to get closer was just commute. As for your request for other clans living on the outskirts: Hyuugas live in that one complex. Naaras are left to tend to that forest. I don't know if the Hyuuga complex and that deer forest are on the outskirts, but this is still being confined to a single area. Besides, nothing in particular is wrong with being geographically located on the outskirts. Somebody has to live there. If you want to go get some ramen or do anything else then just walk to the ramen shop from the outskirts (just as everyone else walks from their homes).

3. Being apart of the founding body doesn't guarantee that you are actually a good leader nor does it make leadership something that you should naturally inherit. It is like I said in my thread: All Madara did was accept the treaty after telling Hashirama to kill himself or Tobirama (and he came up with the name of the village). The Uchiha, being under Madara, did no more than Madara. Hashirama built the village. Hashirama came up with the idea for a hokage. Hashirama created the peace offering in the first place. It makes sense that Hashirama became hokage. The things he did showed him to be a good leader. What did Madara or any other Uchiha do to show this?
Accepting a treaty is not an act of leadership. Anybody can shake hands or write their names on a piece of paper. The leader is the one that proposed it.

If an Uchiha was chosen as hokage just because their clan was apart of the founding body, then that would be essentially picking a leader solely based on race. That is a horrible way to pick a leader.

4. Also, I explained in my thread why all known Uchiha candidates didn't work out.

1- Dude, the 2 advisers DID want Jiraiya to be hokage. They asked him and her turned it down offering to find Tsunade instead. Remember? And they were like ok fine go find her. Danzou disliked her, but it seems Danzou was underground bidding his time during that period. Plus he might've been out voted by the other 2 anyway.

And remember when Danzou was nominated and had to go to the 5 kage summit? He was like, when he goes he'll do so well that "even the jounin counsel will have to accept him".....so it's not ll up to the hokage....by the looks of things, you have to get buy-in from multiple parties before 'officially' becoming hokage: daimyo, jounin counsel, 3 advisors, and hokage.....

2- Obviously the clans would live together in their own areas, but the Uchiha were the only ones living outside of the parameters of the village. Point taken on the Uchiha being able to work in other areas. That's true. Still blocked from the pinnacle of power though. I mean no Uchiha adviser? I mean come on. Well, I know what you'll say- Kagami might've been an adviser too if he were alive right? IDK, with the way they distrusted the Uchiha, they probably weren't fcking with him either.

3- Come on man. Ppl are so unfair to Madara. He united his clan just like Hashirama united his. He lead his clan for years just like Hashirama did. The only difference is he fell into despair and became a war monger, losing his clan's support. At that point though, he acquiesced to the will of the ppl and formed the treaty.

When Hashi asked him to be hokage, Madara was beating himself up for not accepting peace earlier and for being unable to protect his brothers and clan. He was ready to accept peace and accept the village as his family. But that Tobirama ruined everything.

As for what the Uchiha did in the building of the village, first of all, I find it hard to believe Hashi built everything all by his lonesome...come on now....it had to have been a group effort by all the clans to build up their areas.....as for the governing body and laws and governing body and stuff, it's entirely possible the Uchiha were involved in that stuff under Hashirama's leadership, but then Tobirama drove them out....just a guess, no manga proof obviously, just like there's no manga proof that Hashi did everything all by himself as you suggest.

And again, I'm not saying an Uchiha should be hokage simply bc they're a founding clan, I'm saying it's ****ed up that they've been excluded from the governing body and should absolutely be part of it as one of its elder clans....the absence of Uchiha presence in this body has created this tight circle of influence where only ppl who are somehow connected to the senju or sarutobi has ever been hokage.

3 senjus, 1 Sarutobi, 2 Namikes (including Naruto), 1 Hatake. ALL share the same master or relative.

 

[Romy9]

NOT true.....they rebelled after suffering discrimination.....I guess the American revolutionary war was to set up a tyrannical govt right? Why are you ppl jumping to tyranny when they wanted to rebel to gain their rightful place at the table?

You saw Fugaku and Mito when Itachi was about to kill them. Do they look like tyrannical maniacs to you? These were ppl who got fed up with being locked out of th system and decided to do something about it.

There's a difference between being discriminated and feeling discriminated. They had their rightful place at the table. They just had a bit bigger egos because they didn't have the "throne".

That's why I said individuals. Indra, Madara and Sasuke were maniacs who needed to be put down.

 

[SilverfoxUchiha]

Well... I guess Tobirama got his way. Smh.

I totally understand why the Uchihas launched the Coup.

Personally, i blame Tobirama, Danzou and Sakura for the way things eventually panned out.

Tobirama: Even though he was the one responsible for killing Izuna, he still wouldnt allow Madara to live in peace; and stopped him from being a part of the whole Hokage structure even though he was a founder member of the leaf.

He was also the one responsible for isolating the Uchihas in the first place.

Danzou: Obviously the Coup could have been prevented and an amicable truce/peace could have been made. However, it was because of him that Itachi was forced to kill the Uchiha as he was blackmailed into doing so. All of this after Danzou had prevented Shisui Uchiha from obtaining peace (which it is possible he could have). Leading to Shisui Uchihas death.

Sakura: Why didnt she just destroy Madaras Rinnegan when she had the chance. Obito gave her ample time. Instead she just stood there.. talking smack. Smh

 

[NarutoKage2]

Umm....no. if obito uchiha had survived, he had the best chance of becoming hokage, as he was a student of the 4th hokage.
Its not discrimination, as theres no one clan or family but several.

 

[Rikodou Mode]

It's not their fault they inherited a god's genetics & knowledge.. plus they're the strongest shinobi in Konoha so they win by Konoha constitution..:/ Don't hate the player, hate the game. U_U

 

[Tantalus Thief]

I dont think any Uchiha after Madara except Obito wanted to be hokage

 

[youRLord]

surely the senju have made an error, surely the uchihas had the right to rise up on that situation.

they needed a representative in the "government" because first of all they were not treated properly

The different scares

 

[End of Days]

There is no nepotism in konoha, all those hokage became hokage because they were the strongest at the time. Hokage position is earned not received by crying and begging. Minato was gonna make obito hokage anyway.

There are several clans which make up konoha, they dont sit and cry and demand hokage position. Btw the uchiha still have more power than other clans as the uchiha police. When the village faced its greatest crisis since the foundation, the nine tails attack, every clan was there fighting to protect it.

Where were the uchiha? And they have the audacity to demand more power lmfao.

 

[Mikasa Hagaromo]

There is no nepotism in konoha, all those hokage became hokage because they were the strongest at the time. Hokage position is earned not received by crying and begging. Minato was gonna make obito hokage anyway.

There are several clans which make up konoha, they dont sit and cry and demand hokage position. Btw the uchiha still have more power than other clans as the uchiha police. When the village faced its greatest crisis since the foundation, the nine tails attack, every clan was there fighting to protect it.

Where were the uchiha? And they have the audacity to demand more power lmfao.

So it's meaningless to you that all the kages are either related or students of ppl connected to the Senju?

It's a very small circle.

You mean to tell me that there was no one who wasn't somehow connected to that circle rose up the ranks?

Come on guys.

 

[startup97]

Believe in the Hype!!!
Fourth Databook proof!!!

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Translation: Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hiden, Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

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Viz Scan Orochimaru - "Knew and could perform all existing Konoha Jutsu"
Hiruzen knows all Hidden Leaf Jutsu which equals =

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Hidden Leaf Tech

Neutalizer technique, , Bringer of Darkness, Great Clone Explosion and all 8 Gates at will.
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave (Anime only)
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading
Front Lotus
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Silent Killing
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough


Hiruzen (sarutobi clan)
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique


Hiruzen w/ Enma
Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang

Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap

Nara clan
Black Spider Lily
Shadow Gathering Technique
Shadow Imitation Shuriken Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Shadow Sewing Technique
Shadow–Neck Binding Technique

Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy

Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades




VIZ PROOF.

"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".

the Sandaime was the strongest.

Databook 1, Page 117

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

"Hiruzen in his Prime was able to counter every Leaf Jutsu in Existance including all MS and EMS skills." DB2 Pg 84

Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

He who even holds the affectionate name of "Professor," being well-versed in every jutsu that exists in the village of Konohagakure

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[/SPOILER]

 

[Chie]

Just going to reply to this because I can. (Even though it's not directed at me.)

I skimmed through your wall of text and this only bolstered my point. DISCRIMINATION! You think if Obito wanted to be hokage they'd allow it? Prejudice against the Uchiha was already engrained in the system on account of Tobirama's beliefs bout them gaining power through hatred. That's WRONG btw--they gain power through heightened emotions.....the village has a glass ceiling that no Uchiha could surpass bc they are Uchihas....

There's no way to know if Obito could have been Hokage had he not been manipulated or not. He, himself thinks he could have been. He firmly believed this, given his flashbacks during the War arc.

That prejudice can only go so far. The ones chosen as Hokage were always the most qualified at the time. If an Uchiha were the most qualified at a time when a Hokage was needed and they were the appropriate age, they wouldn't turn a blind eye to that.

...and you're using the cou to justify why they're unfit to be hokage? Hello!! it ws the prejudice against them eliminating the chance for them to every become part of the power structure that created the political conditions for the cou....

You've debunked nothing....all you've presented are biased, minimally thought out justifications for Konoha's corruption.

Konoha and the major nations do all have their dark side.

However, with that being said the coup is indeed a great indicator of why people of that generation weren't fit to be in charge.

The coup was the result of fears the Uchiha had (that hadn't come to pass) and the Kyuubi suspicion the majority of the village had that was directed towards them. The Uchiha were going to betray people that revered them (though didn't trust them). If the people don't trust them, they are not going to be well-received and thus would have to run things by force. That's not justifiable.

As isn't the deaths of countless innocents that would ensue. There would be conflict as a result of their actions. People get caught in extensive cross-fire.

I find it more disturbing that they didn't entertain alternatives. They didn't consider speaking to the most lenient Hokage in the history of Konoha.

Being quick to act and not thinking of the consequence aren't qualities of people fit to run a nation.

NOT true.....they rebelled after suffering discrimination.....I guess the American revolutionary war was to set up a tyrannical govt right? Why are you ppl jumping to tyranny when they wanted to rebel to gain their rightful place at the table?

You saw Fugaku and Mito when Itachi was about to kill them. Do they look like tyrannical maniacs to you? These were ppl who got fed up with being locked out of th system and decided to do something about it.

For every offence committed against the Uchiha, the clan had done something prior that led to it.

Examples:

>Clan suspicion and not trusted? Absent during Kyuubi attack.
> Segregation? Due to clan suspicion. Even so, this is minor given that it only dictates where they sleep. Other than that, they come and go as they please.
>Viewed as greedy? They abused their power as cops.

And what do tyrannical maniacs look like? People look like people, regardless of their viewpoints.

Also, it's Fugaku and Mikoto. Mito is an Uzumaki and Hashirama's wife.

Fugaku, Mikoto, and the rest of the Uchiha were tyrannical enough to attempt to kill the leadership, anyone in their way (so countless comrades outside of the clan), and innocents in cross-fire before exploring more peaceful alternatives. Had they attempted to make their views on the situation known to Hiruzen themselves, things could have worked out differently.

Not only that, but we also must keep in mind the scenario behind their death scene.

>Already knew other members were dead. This is a given by how they were sitting side by side in the room before Itachi entered and Fugaku acknowledged that Itachi was there to carry out the deed without even having to turn around to see that he was in his Anbu uniform holding a katana.

^This makes it so that there is no reason to rebel. Their plan had failed and they knew it. These people had nothing more to do than be parents to their child, simply because that was all that was left. If things had been different (clan not being dead at that moment), they likely would have requested that Itachi not kill them and their son would not have.

Also keep in mind that if others would have had sympathy for their cause, they would have opted to live in that scenario as well. Even Fugaku and Mikoto knew what they were doing was wrong. That's why they and their clan were the only ones to know. They had no allies, no one would support them ruling Konoha. The truth about the Uchiha is only concealed to retain the clan's honour. This is one of the reasons why the coup is a faulty idea from its foundation.

Yes! I would love to see that. Sarada should absolutely be the next hokage...or Sasuke.....shiit....Naruto needs to step down at one point and Sasuke needs to be given the chance to be voted it.....he redeemed himself by saving the village and is probably still serving it from the shadows.....though he'd turn down the position.

The Hokage seat isn't a hand-out. Either one is qualified, or they aren't. Salad may or may not be. Only time will tell.

Sasuke has no desire to take the Hokage seat (which you admitted since you acknowledge he'd turn it down).

This is an oversimplistic way to explain the situation, IMO....it would've been one thing if Tobirama shot down Madara's candidacy bc he was Madara specifically...but it was Tobirama's "an did you hear the rumors about the Uchihas" line that pushed Madara over the edge bc that showed that the distrust didn't only focus on him, but on the Uchiha clan itself.

Tobirama didn't shoot it down. At least not alone. He, the village majority, and even the Uchiha clan themselves preferred Hashirama to Madara as a leader.

Madara is a big boy at the end of the day. He abandoned his clan only due to Tobirama's statements. His fault. He shouldn't have been so easily affected.

Some might say Itachi and Shisui are a bunch of uncle tom ass *****s.

Yes, but those are the few and deluded who remark such things.

Some of you ppl are so naive and gullible it's disturbing. Ever heard of controlling the selection process? You put up the ppl that you''re ok with for canddidacy and present them to the ppl to chose from. That's basically what happened here.

Look at the teaming patterns. There's a formula. Ino-shika-cho 1st and 2nd generation.....team minato....an Uchiha, a non-uchiha, and a useless female....and notice how certain clans are directed to certain fields bc of their abilities (which is completely to be expected and makes perfect sense)...so essentially the chance of them every getting a position outside of their roles are low.

Let's face it. The Uchiha did not have close connections to the Hokage. But who's fault is that really? If one was good enough, they would have been chosen for the role. Simple as that.

There is no rule stating individuals of a certain clan are barred from the spot. Never was and likely never will be.

Can you even think of a scenario where one Hokage was chosen at a time and there was an equally suitable Uchiha? I really can't to be frank with you.

1- Dude, the 2 advisers DID want Jiraiya to be hokage. They asked him and her turned it down offering to find Tsunade instead. Remember? And they were like ok fine go find her. Danzou disliked her, but it seems Danzou was underground bidding his time during that period. Plus he might've been out voted by the other 2 anyway.

So there's some degree of fairness.

Regardless, this point is somewhat moot since there were no Uchiha suitable at the time.

And remember when Danzou was nominated and had to go to the 5 kage summit? He was like, when he goes he'll do so well that "even the jounin counsel will have to accept him".....so it's not ll up to the hokage....by the looks of things, you have to get buy-in from multiple parties before 'officially' becoming hokage: daimyo, jounin counsel, 3 advisors, and hokage.....

So, the Konoha set-up was more fair than the dictatorship the Uchiha were vying for.

2- Obviously the clans would live together in their own areas, but the Uchiha were the only ones living outside of the parameters of the village. Point taken on the Uchiha being able to work in other areas. That's true. Still blocked from the pinnacle of power though. I mean no Uchiha adviser? I mean come on. Well, I know what you'll say- Kagami might've been an adviser too if he were alive right? IDK, with the way they distrusted the Uchiha, they probably weren't fcking with him either.

It was mentioned that only a few Uchiha within the generations were willing to put aside their pride and work for the village (in an honest manner). That pretty much explains where there was not an Uchiha advisor. Regardless, the Uchiha weren't interested in this position. They desired complete power.

It's funny how Kagami had a chance to be Hokage. He could have raised his hand when Tobirama had that suicide mission test. But he was too much of a coward to do so, as was the rest of his team bar Hiruzen.

3- Come on man. Ppl are so unfair to Madara. He united his clan just like Hashirama united his. He lead his clan for years just like Hashirama did. The only difference is he fell into despair and became a war monger, losing his clan's support. At that point though, he acquiesced to the will of the ppl and formed the treaty.

When Hashi asked him to be hokage, Madara was beating himself up for not accepting peace earlier and for being unable to protect his brothers and clan. He was ready to accept peace and accept the village as his family. But that Tobirama ruined everything.

Madara's and Izuna's selfish desire to continue fighting when the Senju had the upper-hand caused unnecessary Uchiha clan casualties for years.

Yes, Tobirama irked Madara. Neither trusted each other, to be fair here. However, at the end of the day it is Madara's fault for abandoning his clan. He claims to love his people and yet had no problem leaving them to Tobirama's devices? It's short-sighted and makes no sense overall.

As for what the Uchiha did in the building of the village, first of all, I find it hard to believe Hashi built everything all by his lonesome...come on now....it had to have been a group effort by all the clans to build up their areas.....as for the governing body and laws and governing body and stuff, it's entirely possible the Uchiha were involved in that stuff under Hashirama's leadership, but then Tobirama drove them out....just a guess, no manga proof obviously, just like there's no manga proof that Hashi did everything all by himself as you suggest.

And again, I'm not saying an Uchiha should be hokage simply bc they're a founding clan, I'm saying it's ****ed up that they've been excluded from the governing body and should absolutely be part of it as one of its elder clans....the absence of Uchiha presence in this body has created this tight circle of influence where only ppl who are somehow connected to the senju or sarutobi has ever been hokage.

3 senjus, 1 Sarutobi, 2 Namikes (including Naruto), 1 Hatake. ALL share the same master or relative.

They were excluded from the governing body since they were never the top choice at times when Hokages were being chosen. It happens.

 

[jiraiya nindo]

The Uchiha had every right to rebel and take back their right as a citizen within a political setup that ostracized them. There was no democracy in Konoha to begin with, so it was a tyrannical set up from the start. They were also the founding fathers, hence, after Senju, the village rightfully belonged to them.

The problem with the Uchiha is that they take loss too personally and it ends up corrupting them and driving them mad/evil. Hokage has to treat the whole village like their family. If the village sustains losses, konoha can't afford to have an uchiha leader going psycho and becoming evil because of it.

The only uchiha who have been mentioned to be able to control this emotion are shisui, his dad and itachi. Obito, madara, and sasuke all became psycho over the losses they sustained.

Remeber, it was the 2nd who did extensive research on the uchiha. So, when they found out that the uchiha had this tremendous problem with their emotions, the 2nd started the countermeasures to protect the village.

 

[shelke]

The problem with the Uchiha is that they take loss too personally and it ends up corrupting them and driving them mad/evil. Hokage has to treat the whole village like their family. If the village sustains losses, konoha can't afford to have an uchiha leader going psycho and becoming evil because of it.

The only uchiha who have been mentioned to be able to control this emotion are shisui, his dad and itachi. Obito, madara, and sasuke all became psycho over the losses they sustained.

All people take loss differently. I admire the clan because they loved their people aside of a few rotten apples like Itachi and others. That is the way it should be. The Uchiha and mad and evil? I don't agree, so this is an opinion.

The rest of it are also opinions, given that I personally know people who handled loses far too small in comparison to what Sasuke and Madara shouldered. Your definition of psycho and evil is very overreaching, given Konoha's own highly corrupt governmental system.

 

[jiraiya nindo]

All people take loss differently. I admire the clan because they loved their people aside of a few rotten apples like Itachi and others. That is the way it should be. The Uchiha and mad and evil? I don't agree, so this is an opinion.

The rest of it are also opinions, given that I personally know people who handled loses far too small in comparison to what Sasuke and Madara shouldered. Your definition of psycho and evil is very overreaching, given Konoha's own highly corrupt governmental system.

I disagree. The initial responses may have been appropriate for the despair they were going through but the main problem with the uchiha isn't their original responses to trauma but what trauma changes in the brain on a physiological level.

For example: madara lost his brother. He became a warrior set out for vengance. That's not horrible but as he sought more and more vengeance, he not only became more powerful but also more corrupted. There is proof of this in the manga.

Another example: when obito lost rin he lashed out and killed all the mist shinobi. That's a proper response but what happens next? He became more and more evil to the point where he had no regard for human life and wanted to end the world....over a girl.

These aren't opinions, this is mangaphax

 

[Byron123]

Good teachers make good students ?

Talentuous ninjas make talentuous children ?

Stupid thread of the day...

Lol that comes to direct contrast against what hagoromo said!

 

[jiraiya nindo]

and the few rotten apples remark doesn't hold water because only a few people even within their own clan have awakened the sharingan in the first place. And those who haven't awakened the sharingan are moot for the purposes of discussing possible hokage selection discrimination

 

[shelke]

I disagree. The initial responses may have been appropriate for the despair they were going through but the main problem with the uchiha isn't their original responses to trauma but what trauma changes in the brain on a physiological level.

For example: madara lost his brother. He became a warrior set out for vengance. That's not horrible but as he sought more and more vengeance, he not only became more powerful but also more corrupted. There is proof of this in the manga.

Another example: when obito lost rin he lashed out and killed all the mist shinobi. That's a proper response but what happens next? He became more and more evil to the point where he had no regard for human life and wanted to end the world....over a girl.

These aren't opinions, this is mangaphax

That is a theory by Tobirama. Nothing more, nothing less. Given that UChihas didn't rebel for fifty plus long years, simply living on the side lines in a village they created. It's funny how you seem to avoid how psychotic Tobirama himself was, or his sympathizers. Hashirama chooses to build a village to safe guard children's rights, he follows it up with Chunin exams, where there is an option to slaughter other children to get those sparse Chunin seats. How nice, practical, kind-hearted and far-reaching of him.

Not to mention the council he cobbled up to take the helm for decades who became the living corrupt relics of the past, where everything was justifiable, as long as Konoha didn't lose its perch on the top - slaughter of the original Akatsuki, orphans, massacring Ame's innocent population, crippling their economy just to name a few. So let's not unload on the Uchiha clan just because we feel like it.

How did he become corrupted? He had his own vision of peace. There is little corruption in that, or still less of it than these governmental shams that gave little voice to the people and aided and abetted criminals, carried out cross border terrorism, and let's not even touch the slaughter of a politically neutral village called Ame at their hands.

Just because one person loses it within a clan, you are going to stand the entire race with him? That's a pretty absurd and unrealistic look at things. There are different kinds of people in different races. Not everyone is a saint, but nor are all evil. You can never use one person to judge the entirety of a clan. That's idiotic.

Not really. You chose to interpret it that way. Show me a page where many say that Uchiha are evil other than Tobirama's c*ck-and-bull, self-serving tales.

 

[End of Days]

So it's meaningless to you that all the kages are either related or students of ppl connected to the Senju?

It's a very small circle.

You mean to tell me that there was no one who wasn't somehow connected to that circle rose up the ranks?

Come on guys.

Konoha isn't some sort of evil organisation led by power hungry individuals who want to "preserve power within their family".

Take Jiraiya and Asuma

Asuma is Hiruzen's son and if what you are saying is true then he would automatically become hokage once hiruzen stepped down, he didnt become one, not when he stepped down and not when Minato died, because he is not fit to be one.

Now Jiraiya despite not being as related to Hiruzen as asuma was still considered for hokage position even after Hiruzen died. Jiraiya isn't strong because he is hiruzen's student btw.

He is strong because of his sage mode training which he has done it himself, because of his toad collaboration jutsus and because of other skills he learned with his own experience and from others like Minato.
Hiruzen didnt give him any kind of a secret ingredient to become strong just because he was his student nor was he playing favorites when he wanted him to become hokage.