Nepotism in Konoha and Why the Uchiha Were Right to Rebel

[jiraiya nindo]

That is a theory by Tobirama. Nothing more, nothing less. Given that UChihas didn't rebel for fifty plus long years, simply living on the side lines in a village they created. It's funny how you seem to avoid how psychotic Tobirama himself was, or his sympathizers. Hashirama chooses to build a village to safe guard children's rights, he follows it up with Chunin exams, where there is an option to slaughter other children to get those sparse Chunin seats. How nice, practical, kind-hearted and far-reaching of him. Not to mention the council he cobbled up to take the helm for decades, becoming the living corrupt relics of the past, where everything was justifiable, as long as Konoha didn't lose its perch on the top - slaughter of the original Akatsuki, orphans, massacring Ame's innocent population, crippling their economy just to name a few. So let's not unload on the Uchiha clan just because we feel like it.

How did he become corrupted? He had his own vision of peace. There is little corruption in that, or still less of it than these governmental shams that gave little voice to the people and aided and abetted criminals, carried out cross border terrorism, and let's not even touch the slaughter of a politically neutral village called Ame at their hands.

Just because one person loses it within a clan, you are going to stand the entire race with him? That's a pretty absurd and unrealistic look at things. There are different kinds of people in different races. Not everyone is a saint, but nor are all evil. You can never use one person to judge the entirety of a clan. That's idiotic.

Not really. You chose to interpret it that way. Show me a page where many say that Uchiha are evil other than Tobirama's c*ck-and-bull, self-serving tales.

Okay now we're talking about something different entirely. I was commenting on the line of progression for hokage and why the uchiha (esp, at that time) were unfit for it save a few, as I mentioned earlier. I'm in no way advocating for the moral ambiguity of the village itself.

But, to go over your points. First, I would say that an author usually places commentary into their characters as a way of displaying a truth of an issue. So, tobirama's exposition was meant to be an enlightening explanation as to why the uchiha have this history or as the manga calls it "curse" of hatred. IMO, it is meant to be taken as fact with a little bit of tobirama's own shading from his past experiences.

The government shams you refer to are basically danzo and the elders. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who would argue that what those three were doing was morally right but that doesn't make the whole village corrupt anymore than, by your assertion, a few bad uchiha makes the whole uchiha corrupt. Right?

 

[Mikasa Hagaromo]

Believe in the Hype!!!
Fourth Databook proof!!!

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Translation: Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hiden, Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member

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Viz Scan Orochimaru - "Knew and could perform all existing Konoha Jutsu"
Hiruzen knows all Hidden Leaf Jutsu which equals =

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Hidden Leaf Tech

Neutalizer technique, , Bringer of Darkness, Great Clone Explosion and all 8 Gates at will.
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave (Anime only)
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading
Front Lotus
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Silent Killing
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough


Hiruzen (sarutobi clan)
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique


Hiruzen w/ Enma
Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang

Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap

Nara clan
Black Spider Lily
Shadow Gathering Technique
Shadow Imitation Shuriken Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Shadow Sewing Technique
Shadow–Neck Binding Technique

Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy

Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades




VIZ PROOF.

"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".

the Sandaime was the strongest.

Databook 1, Page 117

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

"Hiruzen in his Prime was able to counter every Leaf Jutsu in Existance including all MS and EMS skills." DB2 Pg 84

Konohamaru paragraph:

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

He who even holds the affectionate name of "Professor," being well-versed in every jutsu that exists in the village of Konohagakure

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[/SPOILER]

Hail Hiruzen!

 

[AizenSosuke]

Uchihas were pressured. This was mainly cos Tobirama. They felt the need to rebel. I actually feel them.

 

[shelke]

Okay now we're talking about something different entirely. I was commenting on the line of progression for hokage and why the uchiha (esp, at that time) were unfit for it save a few, as I mentioned earlier. I'm in no way advocating for the moral ambiguity of the village itself.

But, to go over your points. First, I would say that an author usually places commentary into their characters as a way of displaying a truth of an issue. So, tobirama's exposition was meant to be an enlightening explanation as to why the uchiha have this history or as the manga calls it "curse" of hatred. IMO, it is meant to be taken as fact with a little bit of tobirama's own shading from his past experiences.

The government shams you refer to are basically danzo and the elders. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who would argue that what those three were doing was morally right but that doesn't make the whole village corrupt anymore than, by your assertion, a few bad uchiha makes the whole uchiha corrupt. Right?

You are talking about corruption and evil, and I am pointing out your lopsided stance at using the terms psychotic and evil, whilst turning a blind eye to the entire political system. When planning a coup or climbing tiers within a Doujutsu through emotional torment is hardly something evil, and, it incidentally pales in comparison to how Konoha itself functions. So yeah - what's up with this selective evil mantra? They didn't progress because they had been given a separate occupation within Konoha. Tobirama, Obito, and Orochaimaru - all admit it. That is manga evidence for you.

Not necessarily. The manga works or is very close to a play, where characters speak in dialogues or monologues. It's up to the reader to make his full judgement on the evidence he has. Let's see, Tobirama was so open-minded about the clan, that he didn't even know why Sasuke was there, and guess what his first statement was: "An Uchiha? No wonder you are with the enemy." This guy destroyed the clan internally, when he couldn't do so through overt policies. This small sentence alone speaks volumes about him as a politician. His word is as credible about the Uchiha as Obito's are for his own justifications.

There is no such thing as a curse of hatred, as it turned out to be the Tablet all along. We know this now for sure. Which makes Tobirama's theoretical analysis self-serving and useless.

Here is where you are wrong. Hashirama, the first Hokage, left his own brother in charge, knowing that he relentlessly persecuted against the Uchiha? Very responsible leader. Tobirama left Hiruzen in charge, and then what? Which policies did he make that stabilized the system? Konoha experienced two wars in his reign. He didn't restrict the role of the Elders, when it was shown through Tsunade that it was very much within the power of the Hokage to do so. He never persecuted Danzo for his heinous crimes.

He didn't do anything for the branch family, didn't lift any surveillance within Uchiha Clan, never opted for a dialogue, chose all his students for the position first, and when no one opted for it - due to different circumstances -he went for Minato? His student's student? When he could have made Fugaku the leader of the village, completely quelling the seeds of political contention? He let Orochimaru go, when he had mindlessly slaughtered how many? He gave the head of Neji's father, an innocent man, to save his own political reign? If this isn't corruption, then it must have a new face now.

Few people? You do know it doesn't work within the political scheme of things, right? Given that the entire village is basically controlled by four people? If all four are rotten apples, then what is left behind?

 

[MinaButt]

I thought they rebel because of Tobirama's policy.

 

[KingHashirama]

The Shodaime/Nidame/5th Hokage/Kakashi/Naruto are irrelevant to the uchiha coup.


The only people at fault here are Danzo, Hiruzen and the 2 geezers. Uchiha had the right to coup, since the village was being ruled by idiots.

 

[KGB Kakuzu]

Bringing out a real life political scenario to Naruto is not a wise decision, when in a past lands were owned by aristocracy who had their family tree link up to people that founded or funded small villages. Declaration of independence? You are creating an analogy for an arbitrary system through a democratic constitution? An irrelevant point, so to speak.

What do you think the systems in Naruto are based on?! Kishi sure didn't just pull a political system out of his ass and plant it in the story.

In the past, sure some lands are ruled by an aristocracy. But a monarchy or oligarchy is entirely different than a tyrannical rule.

Compare Bloody Mary to Queen Elizabeth I. Both were the sole rulers of England.... but one was tyrannical in their persecutions...

The system doesn't make for tyrants. It's the actions taken by who leads it.

How is my analogy pointless. The founding fathers of the United States are no different than the Uchiha and Sanji clans. They were the ones who put forth the ground work of the United States. They also served as heads or representatives of their respective states.

But do they have ownership of the country? Do the original 13 colonies have more sway than the other states?! Not at all.

The Senju and Uchiha have no claim of ownership over the village. They only have a claim of being its founders.

A matter of opinion, given the village set up, where one lobby has more control over the rest, especially when it comes to political decisions.

What exactly was a matter of opinion? The village is set up with the leader being the Hokage. Between the recommendation of the Hokage, and the entire council that put forth candidates a new leader is chosen.

The system closely follows an Oligarchy with a small few making decisions.

From your argument, literally half of Konoha's clans have a reason to rebel...because they don't have members in the inner council.

There can be subtle tyranny as well, and it very well found fruition in Konoha's leaders' actions - The breach of treaty by Tobirama, eradicating common voting, eliminating hard-liners, not opting for any dialogue and choosing mass slaughter in its stead. No, I'll take it back. This is far from subtle.

What breach of treaty?!

Common voting was never given as a staple rule. Regardless, it's been noted by several different characters including an Uchiha (Itachi) that those who are accepted by the village are made Hokage.

Not opting for dialogue?! Did you ignore the lines where Hiruzen constantly asked Danzo and the gang to take a chill pill while he tries to talk to the Uchiha?!

Or the blatant black mail Danzo pushed in Itachi's face?!

Tobirama ostracized the clan, baring their entry within the political sphere. In this regard, he breached the treaty between the clan that was made on the basis of political equality. Hiruzen did nothing for the Hyuga branch, was content with his arrangements with Danzo, had no proper political motivation to end the spying within the founding clan's strong hold, didn't persecute Danzo when he got innocent children slaughtered.

Ostracized the clan?! The one that was revered as a noble clan (where his own is not)? The clan that was actually given a key job unlike other clans?

Where did he ban their entry?! Kogami (Shisui's dad) was literally in his inner group of shinobi.

He made them the head of the military police. That's a government position. He actually gave them governmental power.

Adding further to Tobirama's tainted rule, he started this entire mess, given that he never embraced the other clan. He also created chunin exam, adding a clause that children have an option to kill other children, when Hashirama created the village to protect the coming generations rights. His horrendous political system that deprived most ninjas and common public from having a voice within the political set up, as it was up to the Kages to select the next candidates and the select few members within the consecrated council, was also mimicked down to the last T by the rest of the prominent four villages. That is not productivity. He merely gave a guise of policy to common war mongering.

He never embraced them, but he clearly respected them. He notes one of his goals was to prevent another Madara. You know, the Uchiha who went bat shit crazy, attacked the village multiple times, and required his brother's all to deal with.

The Chunin exams has a risk of death. It has never promoted it. But when you get sociopaths like early Gaara it happens. Also note, these kids CHOSE to be shinobi. This is literally the job they signed up for. Think of how many civilian children don't have to fight. The kids back in the day were fighting since childhood. The K11 had no day to day struggle. It's entirely different.

The council still picks people who hold the respect of the people. Or did you not notice that?! Is it 100% democratic? No. However, it isn't this prejudice anti-Uchiha political machine you slander it to be.

Of the 7 Hokage we have 3 Senju, a Sarutobi, a Namikaze, an Uzumaki, and a Hatake. The fifth was originally planned to be Obito UCHIHA. But guess what...He lost Rin and then lost himself.

I don't remember Uchiha stating that they wanted to kill civilians. How many civilians do you think Konoha has anyway - given that the village is populated by multiple warring clans? That weakening the village and destruction is such an old argument. Nothing happened when sound and sand attacked Konoha together. No village aided Pein when he reduced it to a rubble. But if Uchiha attack, all hell would break loose? A grand world war was eminent? This isn't even a debatable point.

They never said they wanted to. More than likely they didn't want to. But are you going to tell me a coup is going to go perfectly without violence?! Hardly. No way Danzo would have stood back. Hiruzen wouldn't have stood for it either.

The rebellion would have put Konoha in a state of civil war. Civilkian deaths would happen regardless of will. Look at all the Jutsu people use. Burning buildings. Falling giant Akimichi.... explosive tags. Death flags everywhere.


No one joined Pain because he didn't go tell them. Samui, Karui, and Oomui didn't even know the village had been destroyed.

Does it guarantee that all out war will break out? No. Hardly. It is possible, and that alone is a huge consideration.

You probably feel that it is all right to politically marginalize a founding clan by barring their entry through a police force shenanigan, when world over people have rebelled over second class treatment. I suppose they should take your - or NBs - advise and sit back and chill. You believe they didn't have a right? I do. Had their own not demonstrated the depth of depravity known to man, then they would have easily succeeded.

Please, do tell me how being given control of the MP restricts them from political involvement. Go ahead I'll wait. It's literally a government position. That's handing them political power. No law has ever been noted to prevent Uchiha from political participation.

In fact the key political leaders were Hiruzen, Danzo, and the old guy and girl.. all if whom seemed constantly against Hiruzen (you know... The guy Tobirama chose to lead).


How have they had second class treatment?! Seriously it makes no sense.


NOT ONE LAW prohibited their participation.

They were a NOBLE CLAN.

They were RESPECTED and LOVED by the village.

Minato intended to make OBITO UCHIHA HOKAGE.

Where is it that they are second class citizens?! What rites do they not have that everyone else has.

Your argument is basically because they don't have anyone sitting in the key political positions they have a right to rebel. Because nothing has said they didn't have the ability to reach a position. Especially since Minato planned to give a member one in the future.