Madara was right all along, about mankind and reality

[Vapid]

Yes, I'm still here!
OT: I really don't know what you mean, especially when you say "typical mortal". Care to elaborate?
And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Humans - no, life in general - are incapable of peace, trying to find some secret answer to it is impossible. When you try to find peace you come up with wack ideas like Madara did - hey, lets turn everybody into inanimate objects, hooray for peace!

'Peace' is a human construct. Humans want to create a world centered around the aspects of that construct, but at the same time, they biologically imperfect creatures hardwired for self-destruction, hate and turmoil. Madara realized this and said, "The hell with them then. I've got their peace - the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It may not be the peace they want, but it's peace nonetheless."

Madara wasn't wrong; he was just trying to give humanity what it wanted, albeit in a less acceptable way. :/

 

[ItachiSan03]

'Peace' is a human construct. Humans want to create a world centered around the aspects of that construct, but at the same time, they biologically imperfect creatures hardwired for self-destruction, hate and turmoil. Madara realized this and said, "The hell with them then. I've got their peace - the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It may not be the peace they want, but it's peace nonetheless."

Madara wasn't wrong; he was just trying to give humanity what it wanted, albeit in a less acceptable way. :/

I agree with what you're saying about humans and peace. But IMO IT isn't peace, in the same way that you wouldn't say a bunch of rocks in a room together is peace.

 

[Vapid]

I agree with what you're saying about humans and peace. But IMO IT isn't peace, in the same way that you wouldn't say a bunch of rocks in a room together is peace.

Well, at that point, it's pretty much up to perspective. I personally think a room full of idle rocks where nothing is happening at all is peace in its purest of form – absolute order and stasis.

 

[ItachiSan03]

Well, at that point, it's pretty much up to perspective. I personally think a room full of idle rocks where nothing is happening at all is peace in its purest of form – absolute order and stasis.

Lol I think you're right that it's a matter of perspective. It was fun discussing this with you. It's not often you can have a reasonable discussion with someone - in life in general, let alone here on NB.

 

[Vapid]

Lol I think you're right that it's a matter of perspective. It was fun discussing this with you. It's not often you can have a reasonable discussion with someone - in life in general, let alone here on NB.

l0l true .

 

[Wesker]

Madara was absolutely right, but I think it is rather more reasonable to accept there will never be peace for creatures, in whose nature it is to contradict it, because of their core behavior and values that lead to conflict.

It still remains a mystery to me why Madara even gave a shit to grant the peace to their world. In the end, he had nothing to lose and NOTHING to gain. He was lonely exile, whose generation was over a century ago, with no friends or family around. Neither will his work ever be appreciated by anyone, ever in their world.

I think the only realistic peace you can and should achieve, is the peace that you can secure and grant to your family/friends, and at least to your country. YOU WILL NEVER SUCCEED 100% in all aspects, to make it a good life for everyone across the globe, because you lack the understanding of everyone, or enter a dead end where settling peace for one party, ignites conflict for another.

The only things i can think of, is to accept conflicts, war, and death as natural, inevitable phenomena... Perceive and educate people on the pain of experiencing it... And learn to comprise and avoid things to keep the maximum achievable stability at all cost.

Look at us right now. Compare our society today to the society of our earlier generations where wars happened much much more. Information and education is key. Information about consequences and information about mistakes people make, so that people know exactly how and why they will **** up, and what their **** ups result in.

 

[KingHashirama]

How was it contradictory? Oh wait, it wasn't.

That's not it; it's the fact that he didn't have a genuine answer/counter to Madara's ideals and beliefs at all. The closest thing was, "This is just a big lie!!!"

Way to counter, Nardo. You really convinced Madara with that one.

He stated the answer to cycle of hatred is to endure. ENDURE the hatred.. don't let the hatred go on.. don't put the hate you have against someone upon their kids.. Naruto's answer to cycle of hatred was the same as Rikudou's, hashirama's, jiraiyas, UNDERSTANdinG and enduring.

Madara was beyond convincing... Hashirama gave him plenty of reasons to stay... did he stay ? no..

Now, how was madara contradictory? oh lets see

-"I wanna take out the concept of winner and loser" (i guess he can't take losing that well.)
- proeeds to brag on about how hes powerful and how others are weak and toys with people's deaths... Yes you are really taking that concept out

 

[cmoG]

I'm not really sure Sasuke lost. Neither of them could move at the end of the fight, both lost an arm. Sasuke probably could have moved and killed Naruto, or vice versa. Neither wanted to by the end. I think it's safe to call it a draw. Sasuke's ideals lost, because in the end he was not even believing in what he said.

I feel Sasuke made a very valid point about the Shinobi alliance going right back to their own villages, their old ways and not trusting each other. I doubt we get a follow up to that idea, but the truth is the world wouldn't really stay at peace with Naruto being the effective Jinch. of 8 of the 9 tailed beasts (possibly all 9). The other villages would resent Konoha having that much power, plus a Rinnegan user.

Hopefully part 3 addresses these inconsistencies, and how the world isn't at peace yet.

Great stuff man.

 

[cmoG]

Madara was absolutely right, but I think it is rather more reasonable to accept there will never be peace for creatures, in whose nature it is to contradict it, because of their core behavior and values that lead to conflict.

It still remains a mystery to me why Madara even gave a shit to grant the peace to their world. In the end, he had nothing to lose and NOTHING to gain. He was lonely exile, whose generation was over a century ago, with no friends or family around. Neither will his work ever be appreciated by anyone, ever in their world.

I think the only realistic peace you can and should achieve, is the peace that you can secure and grant to your family/friends, and at least to your country. YOU WILL NEVER SUCCEED 100% in all aspects, to make it a good life for everyone across the globe, because you lack the understanding of everyone, or enter a dead end where settling peace for one party, ignites conflict for another.

The only things i can think of, is to accept conflicts, war, and death as natural, inevitable phenomena... Perceive and educate people on the pain of experiencing it... And learn to comprise and avoid things to keep the maximum achievable stability at all cost.

Look at us right now. Compare our society today to the society of our earlier generations where wars happened much much more. Information and education is key. Information about consequences and information about mistakes people make, so that people know exactly how and why they will **** up, and what their **** ups result in.

There may have been more wars in the past, but society was far better back then. People were happy, willing to lend a helping hand, went out to enjoy our gift of nature, the costs of living was far greater, apt to love & find love & because of shared morals, families were closer.

Now, look at today's people. Parents are never around, kids learn from sources such as the wretched media, not many people are happy in thier lives, the cost of living has increased dramatically, not many people care about others, but rather themselves, people don't enjoy out gift of nature, but rather yet cell phones. Drug usage is at an all time high, premarital/child *** is now the norm & now kids are having kids. The people are so split from each other.

So, although Madara planned to take away free will, he also knew that the world would not get better...that the world would be have to be forced to receive peace. Look at 9/11. It took an incident so horrible as that, to bring us together & just shortly thereafter, the world went back to it's old hateful ways & racism increased against a people who had nothing to do with what a select few people did.

Like it or not, I don't think humans have the chance of becoming peaceful & that's due to free will. Like Madara said, in order to create true peace, there must first be sacrifice.

 

[Wesker]

There may have been more wars in the past, but society was far better back then. People were happy, willing to lend a helping hand, went out to enjoy our gift of nature, the costs of living was far greater, apt to love & find love & because of shared morals, families were closer.

Now, look at today's people. Parents are never around, kids learn from sources such as the wretched media, not many people are happy in thier lives, the cost of living has increased dramatically, not many people care about others, but rather themselves, people don't enjoy out gift of nature, but rather yet cell phones. Drug usage is at an all time high, premarital/child *** is now the norm & now kids are having kids. The people are so split from each other.

So, although Madara planned to take away free will, he also knew that the world would not get better...that the world would be have to be forced to receive peace. Look at 9/11. It took an incident so horrible as that, to bring us together & just shortly thereafter, the world went back to it's old hateful ways & racism increased against a people who had nothing to do with what a select few people did.

Like it or not, I don't think humans have the chance of becoming peaceful & that's due to free will. Like Madara said, in order to create true peace, there must first be sacrifice.

To many drug usage and pre-marital *** is a bad thing because it was ingrained in them to consider it "bad". But dissecting such things in detail, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. You enjoy whatever amount of *** you want to, and you enjoy any substance that makes you feel good, that you want. You simply have to accept the consequences of the sort of reputation or possible healthy problems that results in it.

Same for caring about others. Racism is condemned like never before, especially in 1st World Countries. Just look how many social justice warriors go after anyone doing something wrong, whenever they find out about those things on the internet. We have extreme protests on government buildings in USA/Europe, whenever something wrong happening thousands of kilometers away in the Middle East. Though maybe many of those people are very ignorant and not entirely honest, you would never have a following of people that would care about something what they never saw in person, in the past.

And I didn't say that humans will become peaceful. On the contrary, I pointed out that the violent, "bad" part of human actions, have to be expected, embraced, but dealt with careful avoidance, endurance and compromise.

And 9/11 did not bring people together to establish peace. LOL. Like nothing else, it gathered the largest group of emotionally harmed, vengerful people that wanted the crack-down on those responsible for the attack.

 

[Uchihajin Sasuke]

Lord Madara was not wrong at all, it depends on the way you see it. Even Naruto didn't have a real counter to the point he made. Humans will always be flawed creatures and anyone who tells otherwise is an ignorant idiot.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Indeed his ideals were just but the way he wanted to correct the world was robbing people of their free will, he had the right idea though.. somewhat..

Scientist have argue that free will doesn't exist.

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Even if it did people were still themselves in the dream world.

Turning people into vegetables so there is no interaction is not peace. It's the same as if we nuked the planet our turned everyone into turnips. Peace? Not really, it resembles peace just because there's no interaction hence no conflict.

There's no answer for peace. Humans have differences. Differences create disagreement, disagreement creates conflict, conflict creates war. War and conflict is a fact of life, fighting it is like fighting death. Can't handle it? Go kill yourself. That's pretty much IT, it's a state of suspended death.

And also... It's a manga. It's not real life. Stories don't always reflect real life.

I need to stop rambling. Need to do my school. F*ck. Maybe IT isn't so bad after all.

Dreaming isn't the same as being a vegetable where you're miserable because they can't do anything but watch the world go by. While Madara planned on giving people immortality(via tree feeding them charka like the Gedo Mazo did for him) and enteral happiness in a perfect dream world. Can nukes do that? Can being a turnips do that? No? Then don't compare.

IT solves things like world hunger, incurable diseases, death, and stops human extinction(unless the planet blow up or something) as it preserves it. It was less about peace and more like bringing Heaven on Earth.

 

[aimop95]

The problem with the Eye of the Moon plan is that in the end, it's just the extreme form of a dictatorship. Madara, no matter how many skin headbands he goes through, is still human, still bound by humanity. And just by the virtue of being a human, no other human would allow him such absolute control that he desired. As long as Madara was originally a human, there will always be resistance, and Madara, being human, would eventually slip up. 'Free will' will always exist, because what Madara will do is the exact opposite, hell, even on the technical level earth would still exist, people would just be wrapped up in cocoons. Madara's idea would only work if he actually changed reality, not just everyone's personal reality. And the best he could do was on a personal level.

It takes something other than a human to effectively rule humans. Even Kaguya herself has some form of humanity within her, as she became KNOWN as a deity after eating the chakra fruit, she was never originally a deity, and why ultimately, failed in her task to unite the world.

tl;dr Humans nor their subspecies in any universe are incapable of ruling absolutely and fairly. Nor are they capable of ever casting off their humanity. They can suppress it, they can get very close, but will never ever achieve the ideal world by virtue of their own work.

 

[ItachiSan03]

Scientist have argue that free will doesn't exist.

You must be registered for see links

Even if it did people were still themselves in the dream world.



Dreaming isn't the same as being a vegetable where you're miserable because they can't do anything but watch the world go by. While Madara planned on giving people immortality(via tree feeding them charka like the Gedo Mazo did for him) and enteral happiness in a perfect dream world. Can nukes do that? Can being a turnips do that? No? Then don't compare.

IT solves things like world hunger, incurable diseases, death, and stops human extinction(unless the planet blow up or something) as it preserves it. It was less about peace and more like bringing Heaven on Earth.

I meant vegetables in that there is no interaction. I didn't mean vegetables in a negative sense. Each person is happy in their own world, but there's no interaction. From the outside, real world, they're rocks/vegetables in that sense because they're just "sitting" there.
There's nothing inherently awful about IT, but I don't think it's real, true peace, since IT just stops humans from interacting thereby ending conflict. IMO peace means peaceful coexistence. Which of course isn't possible, which is why peace is unachievable.
I personally wouldn't want to be put in IT so that's why I don't agree with it. IT doesn't necessarily fit my definition or idea of peace, but it may for some.

 

[Tennis Robot]

Madara wanted to hide from reality because he didn't want to pick himself up when he fell down. He wallowed in his pain.

 

[narutoblitz]

In the end I don't feel Naruto had any answer to Sasuke or Madara. The world indeed went right back to its old ways. The 5 Kage were still there brokering peace, even after Naruto become Hokage. Peace gave rise to conflict again, when Kaguya's "son" came back. This is a bad translation by the way the literal translaton is just ancestor.

The new sourcebooks sort of imply (IMO) that he's weaker than Madara and Kaguya. I think we can assume that Naruto and Sasuke may have lost their Sage upgrades and just kept their respective RSD and Shar-Rinnegan. The fact the Sage even said he was taking his chakra back seems proof enough of that.

TL;DR:

Reality is overrated. Itachi was right, we all live in our perceptions and illusions and call it our own reality. Most people are incapable of distinguishing reality from a dream. I'll take the blue pill, and punch Morpheus in the face while I am at it...