[Discussion] Sasuke's Final Character Arc

[Apocalyto]

slightly confusing though.

 

[Mr Hiru]

That is true but sasuke has never, for 15 years lol, went along with naruto. And this time, even tho he seemed so certain in himself and naruto not so much, he accepted what naruto had to say. It just felt rushed

Review my last answer, and you should know why I disagree.

Basically, you lack the perspective of the manga as a whole process. You're speaking as if Sasuke changed in one chapter, but this is a fallacy. He have been changing from long time ago.

 

[ShadowACS]

Naruto TNJ was coming, he is the main character and that is the purpose of this manga therefore he will change everyone or must likely

 

[Byron123]

Well the thing is that Sasuke was never willing to listen to Naruto and he was always running away from him. However, him running away from Naruto can also mean that he was afraid of getting persuaded by him and because of that, by running away, he was hoping to stay unaffected, that alone proves he doesn't have such a hard resolve. However, in their latest battle he couldn't help it and so he passed a great deal of time with Naruto whether he liked it or not. Even if he was planning his revolution all along, at some moments it was visible that he was happy for fighting along with Naruto. Just look at him:

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No matter what he was saying his actions were speaking otherwise.

As for Naruto not offering any plan in return I would agree to some extent but at the same time what he suggests is so ideal that you can't simply put in few words. Sasuke's plan was to become a second Lelouch, preety straightforward but Naruto's answer was too vague. What does it mean mutual understanding and solidarity? For Naruto who wanted to achieve a solution like that is simply too complicated to be explained because it can be achieved in many ways but all of them cannot be explained in a manga. For Naruto to start talk about politics and such would be completely out of character.

I must say that I will be also disappointed if he doesn't even try to specify it a bit.


So to answer your questions:

1) No it is believable because I said Sasuke had the potential to be persuaded easily but he simply needed a little push. The fact is that Sasuke has changed his aims many times and that alone proves that Sasuke does not stick to one and only idea. He's willing to change as long as he thinks that what he does is right, right according to him.


2) Sasuke is an antagonist. As I said above he acts based on his sense of righteousness without caring about him being selfish or selfless. His time during the war proved that he didn't simply become a sweet angel but he simply cooperated with Naruto as means to achieve his own goal which at that point was to become the ruler of the world, Lelocuh style. (With what power he would achieve that prior to his meeting with Hagoromo god knows XD ). So no, he was never the villain, just many people tend to look at things as black and white without taking a deeper insight at one's personality and motives, the latter are what make one a "villain". You can do bad things even though you have a good intent, same happened here.


3) HELL NO! If you examine carefully Sasuke, you will realize a trademark of his personality: his opinion must always correct. Sasuke passed all his life trying to correct what he thought as mistakes. He first killed Itachi to revenge his clan and thus bringing balance where he thought he needed, he killed Danzo for his mistake to kill Itachi, he fought against Obito, Madara and Kaguya to also correct what he deemed as wrong. In a sense you could call that "Sasuke's world order". Just like in these cases, he decided to rule the world to correct hokages' and everyone's else mistakes based on the knowledge he had aqcuired from his personal life. If Sasuke had taken part in this war with the intent of going back to Konoha, it would completely contradict his actions, since Sasuke more that anything wants to pass judgement to those who make mistakes. He did not consider as the cause of that mistake neither Obito nor Madara nor Kaguya but the entire world and so if he wanted to correct the situation he would have to take control of the world.


Hope that helped

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Review my last answer, and you should know why I disagree.

Basically, you lack the perspective of the manga as a whole process.

I do see your point, makes more sense now and I agree. I thought the same thing actually but why would he still, after all that, seal the beasts, wanna kill the kages, and completely oppose naruto?

 

[Mr Hiru]

I do see your point, makes more sense now and I agree. I thought the same thing actually but why would he still, after all that, seal the beasts, wanna kill the kages, and completely oppose naruto?

I'd recommend to read Byron123's answer. He clearifies that with luxury and detail.

 

[Byron123]

I'd recommend to read Byron123's answer. He clearifies that with luxury and detail.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I got your back, pal. Your answer was far more complete than mine.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Your answer was lovely haha, gimme a sec to read it cause i'm in a meeting right now. And I appreciate both hiru's and your answer btw

 

[Byron123]

Your answer was lovely haha, gimme a sec to read it cause i'm in a meeting right now. And I appreciate both hiru's and your answer btw

You are in a meeting?! LMAO! "So tell me John what do you think of our current's economy, should I invest in gold?"
You: "Yeah, just a second right now I check the stock exchange" XD

 

[so12p]

1) Fight was contrived fan service for readers that were whining about seeing another fight.
2) Sasuke did not "give up." He was beaten down, beaten into submission. He went all out and Naruto stopped every maneuver without intent to kill.

Kishimoto had four chapters to burn on a pointless fight. He did it. It's done. Tell your friend to logoff and go get some fresh air in the real world.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Well the thing is that Sasuke was never willing to listen to Naruto and he was always running away from him. However, him running away from Naruto can also mean that he was afraid of getting persuaded by him and because of that, by running away, he was hoping to stay unaffected, that alone proves he doesn't have such a hard resolve. However, in their latest battle he couldn't help it and so he passed a great deal of time with Naruto whether he liked it or not. Even if he was planning his revolution all along, at some moments it was visible that he was happy for fighting along with Naruto. Just look at him:

You must be registered for see images

No matter what he was saying his actions were speaking otherwise.

As for Naruto not offering any plan in return I would agree to some extent but at the same time what he suggests is so ideal that you can't simply put in few words. Sasuke's plan was to become a second Lelouch, preety straightforward but Naruto's answer was too vague. What does it mean mutual understanding and solidarity? For Naruto who wanted to achieve a solution like that is simply too complicated to be explained because it can be achieved in many ways but all of them cannot be explained in a manga. For Naruto to start talk about politics and such would be completely out of character.

I must say that I will be also disappointed if he doesn't even try to specify it a bit.


So to answer your questions:

1) No it is believable because I said Sasuke had the potential to be persuaded easily but he simply needed a little push. The fact is that Sasuke has changed his aims many times and that alone proves that Sasuke does not stick to one and only idea. He's willing to change as long as he thinks that what he does is right, right according to him.


2) Sasuke is an antagonist. As I said above he acts based on his sense of righteousness without caring about him being selfish or selfless. His time during the war proved that he didn't simply become a sweet angel but he simply cooperated with Naruto as means to achieve his own goal which at that point was to become the ruler of the world, Lelocuh style. (With what power he would achieve that prior to his meeting with Hagoromo god knows XD ). So no, he was never the villain, just many people tend to look at things as black and white without taking a deeper insight at one's personality and motives, the latter are what make one a "villain". You can do bad things even though you have a good intent, same happened here.


3) HELL NO! If you examine carefully Sasuke, you will realize a trademark of his personality: his opinion must always correct. Sasuke passed all his life trying to correct what he thought as mistakes. He first killed Itachi to revenge his clan and thus bringing balance where he thought he needed, he killed Danzo for his mistake to kill Itachi, he fought against Obito, Madara and Kaguya to also correct what he deemed as wrong. In a sense you could call that "Sasuke's world order". Just like in these cases, he decided to rule the world to correct hokages' and everyone's else mistakes based on the knowledge he had aqcuired from his personal life. If Sasuke had taken part in this war with the intent of going back to Konoha, it would completely contradict his actions, since Sasuke more that anything wants to pass judgement to those who make mistakes. He did not consider as the cause of that mistake neither Obito nor Madara nor Kaguya but the entire world and so if he wanted to correct the situation he would have to take control of the world.


Hope that helped

Well sir, tbh I agree with most of the things you said. I like your take on sasuke maybe trying to run away from Naruto to not have to face the truth so to speak and stay unaffected.

Nonetheless with a situation like this I can't help but question the possibilities XD which is why i'm happy I made the thread cause I got a response like that haha

3) nothing to say really, completely loved that part

2) I also viewed Sasuke more of an antagonist, my friend is that one that believed that sasuke cemented himself as a villain when he decided to kill the kages and Naruto. Which again I question and I was like umm I can see it.

1) Once again, agreed

Now questions again lol:

do you believe that it would have been done better or at least smoother if it took longer for Sasuke to change during this fight or are you completely fine with the way it went down?

Also, kinda different, but we also talked about lelouch ironically. And we didn't believe that Sasuke was like a second lelouch even tho he was similar. I wanna hear what you have to say about that first lol

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

You are in a meeting?! LMAO! "So tell me John what do you think of our current's economy, should I invest in gold?"
You: "Yeah, just a second right now I check the stock exchange" XD

Shut up lol XD the meeting is hella corny you have no idea but i'm on my phone and trying to be discrete at the same time and you make me read and respond to an essay lol It's all good tho

 

[Byron123]

Well sir, tbh I agree with most of the things you said. I like your take on sasuke maybe trying to run away from Naruto to not have to face the truth so to speak and stay unaffected.

Nonetheless with a situation like this I can't help but question the possibilities XD which is why i'm happy I made the thread cause I got a response like that haha

3) nothing to say really, completely loved that part

2) I also viewed Sasuke more of an antagonist, my friend is that one that believed that sasuke cemented himself as a villain when he decided to kill the kages and Naruto. Which again I question and I was like umm I can see it.

1) Once again, agreed

Now questions again lol:

do you believe that it would have been done better or at least smoother if it took longer for Sasuke to change during this fight or are you completely fine with the way it went down?

Also, kinda different, but we also talked about lelouch ironically. And we didn't believe that Sasuke was like a second lelouch even tho he was similar. I wanna hear what you have to say about that first lol

Why am I under the impression that I'm being interviewed? XD


1) Well I suppose that his change might have been refreshing compared other fights that took ages and we were only seeing slight changes. Most importantly though, in this fight Sasuke went all out immediately so there was no time to chit-chat XD Morover, naruto had to counter him accordingly which ended up with them being lying on the ground having to survive from blood loss. Now imagine this, naruto trying to change Sasuke for 1 or 2 chapters while the perspective of the camera changes only with them lying on that damn ground! LMAO! I would laugh honestly.

Naruto: Sasukkeee! Believe in me!
Sasuke: NO! I can't!
Naruto: Sasukeeeee!
Sasuke: Narutoooooooooo!
Naruto:SASUKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Sasuke: NARUTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

After whole hours they can't speak anymore because of the screaming.

Sasuke: Fine you persuaded me.
Naruto: Yeah I'm so happy we will be BFF again!
Sasuke dies from blood loss which was caused from the continuous screaming!
Naruto: NOOOOOOOOOO!

THE END!



About Lelouch.


Sasuke could potentially become a second Lelouch if he was willing to sacrifice himself. However, there is a distinct difference between the two of them. Lelouch while he was cynical, he had a ray of hope that the word can change on its own if the correct conditions are set. However, Sasuke does not believe in world's ablities but rather on his own so no, he would never go as far as to sacrifice himself.

 

[ANiMUS]

Ppl change when they are about to die. Sasuke's pivotal moment was supposed to be when he cut down Naruto allowing him to dive into darkness, but he failed to do that. Naruto wouldn't let him. Naruto never once thought of cutting ties with Sasuke and Sasuke finally seeing how similar his and Naruto's feelings are finally made him appreciate their connection. Having failed at his agenda and coming to terms with his own feelings Sasuke gave up on his course :|

I am good with that Love overcame Sasuke's power.

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

I think there should've been more build up leading to Sasuke changing his views,like he could've left on a soul searching journey for a while and then come back and admit he was wrong.But other than that I liked how the fight turned out.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Why am I under the impression that I'm being interviewed? XD


1) Well I suppose that his change might have been refreshing compared other fights that took ages and we were only seeing slight changes. Most importantly though, in this fight Sasuke went all out immediately so there was no time to chit-chat XD Morover, naruto had to counter him accordingly which ended up with them being lying on the ground having to survive from blood loss. Now imagine this, naruto trying to change Sasuke for 1 or 2 chapters while the perspective of the camera changes only with them lying on that damn ground! LMAO! I would laugh honestly.

Naruto: Sasukkeee! Believe in me!
Sasuke: NO! I can't!
Naruto: Sasukeeeee!
Sasuke: Narutoooooooooo!
Naruto:SASUKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Sasuke: NARUTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

After whole hours they can't speak anymore because of the screaming.

Sasuke: Fine you persuaded me.
Naruto: Yeah I'm so happy we will be BFF again!
Sasuke dies from blood loss which was caused from the continuous screaming!
Naruto: NOOOOOOOOOO!

THE END!



About Lelouch.


Sasuke could potentially become a second Lelouch if he was willing to sacrifice himself. However, there is a distinct difference between the two of them. Lelouch while he was cynical, he had a ray of hope that the word can change on its own if the correct conditions are set. However, Sasuke does not believe in world's ablities but rather on his own so no, he would never go as far as to sacrifice himself.

Well not like that lol you know what I mean. And also I would have like then to fight a little more in their new mode instead of just doing one attack but whatever.

And yea about lelouch I agree. Lelouch did it more for the good of the world bc he believed it could be better. And also it felt like lelouch at the end did it more for the people around him while sasuke was more selfish

 

[GhostProject]

I agree with most of the points in this post XD

What bothered me the most, was how the ending wasn't a compromise in any way. Sasuke just flipped and turned the other way because he knew his ideology was just plain wrong. It wasn't a battle of ideologies, but simply a battle of right and wrong, which seems anticlimactic for the premiere Yin - Yang representatives.

And Sasuke gave up on his ideology seemingly out of nowhere without much resistance, Naruto just fought him. So in the end he was just an angsty kid that didn't know what he wanted and just wanted to bring down his friend? To me it just seemed like the worst actual development for Sasuke as a character.

Anyways that's my rant Lol I'm fine now

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

I agree with most of the points in this post XD

What bothered me the most, was how the ending wasn't a compromise in any way. Sasuke just flipped and turned the other way because he knew his ideology was just plain wrong. It wasn't a battle of ideologies, but simply a battle of right and wrong, which seems anticlimactic for the premiere Yin - Yang representatives.

And Sasuke gave up on his ideology seemingly out of nowhere without much resistance, Naruto just fought him. So in the end he was just an angsty kid that didn't know what he wanted and just wanted to bring down his friend? To me it just seemed like the worst actual development for Sasuke as a character.

Anyways that's my rant Lol I'm fine now

Why are you laughing at the end of the first sentence XD jk I know.

It's true tho. In a way I guess I expected more at the end of such a long and content rich series. I mean there was so much that went into the whole story that it kinda felt like not everything that needed to be adressed was addressed. In terms of sasukes's character, did you check byron123's response?

 

[Trea]

I too think the fight was rushed but not the change in Sasuke. Sasuke hasn't changed his ideals only the way he decided to go about it. Sasuke was finally able to admit to Naruto and himself that he left the village for more than one reason. He left to get stronger so he could carry out his revenge against Itachi, he also left because of his feeling for Naruto and Team 7 he admitted they felt like family to him, they were a weakness to him and you can't become as strong as you can when you have a weakness.

He admitted to Naruto once before that Naruto was his best friend and that he would not get strong by doing what Itachi suggested he do and kill him. He said he would get strong his own way. This idea that this was a 5 minute change is wrong. This time he felt that he had to kill Naruto to prove he could cut all of his ties, get rid of what was left of his feelings for Naruto and Team 7, to prove to himself that he could handle the hatred.

Plain and simple, he came up against an immovable force. Naruto was going to keep getting up as many times as Sasuke did. He realized that Naruto never gave up on their friendship, that their friendship meant more to each of them than they realized and they were each others only connection to the village when they both needed one. Sasuke was not saying he lost the fight or he gave up his ideals he was saying he could no longer hold onto his hatred in the face of Naruto's determination. For Naruto this was about saving his friend and bringing him home and about ending the transmigration. This fight to Naruto was not about getting Sasuke to agree with his ideas, hell, he didn't even tell him his ideas, Naruto already said that's for the next fight.

Sasuke has only agreed to accept Naruto, not everyone, and he has also cautioned Naruto that he might go against him again. I think that gives fair warning that he is not going to go along with everything Naruto or the alliance might want. I think that statement keeps him as an antagonist. The other side to Naruto's coin, to keep things balanced.