[Discussion] Does Sasuke have senjutsu?

[Zawerni]

What chapter is this? Where Kakashi gains Obito's Rikudo infused Chakra?

Chapter 689

 

[Punk Hazard]

Then show me a Viz translation that says otherwise.

The mangapanda version was the only one I could find.

Unless you can prove Kakashi shape manipulated Kamui into shuriken, you can't claim I'm wrong.

That's exactly what he did tho

 

[UzumakiRyu]

That's exactly what he did tho

If I'm looking at the post you assume is "Viz Scan" it clearly says Mangapanda.com which isn't but please quote the right post if I'm wrong...

 

[Draxus]

Then show me a Viz translation that says otherwise.

The mangapanda version was the only one I could find.

Unless you can prove Kakashi shape manipulated Kamui into shuriken, you can't claim I'm wrong.

by your own interpritation you're wrong. How can he imbue or wrap things in kumai with out manipulating it?

It's just like adding wind to rasengan is wind manipulation aka wind release. So by that same principle Kumai shuriken is kumai release

 

[Zawerni]

by your own interpritation you're wrong. How can he imbue or wrap things in kumai with out manipulating it?

It's just like adding wind to rasengan is wind manipulation aka wind release. So by that same principle Kumai shuriken is kumai release

Shape manipulation isn't necessary to imbue an effect into something.

Wind release is a nature manipulation. Kamui isn't a nature, it's a jutsu. There is no such thing as "Kamui Release"


Are Naruto's Rasengan variations "Rasengan Release"?
Or Sasuke's Chidori variations "Chidori Release"?

 

[Draxus]

Shape manipulation isn't necessary to imbue an effect into something.

Wind release is a nature manipulation. Kamui isn't a nature, it's a jutsu. There is no such thing as "Kamui Release"


Are Naruto's Rasengan variations "Rasengan Release"?
Or Sasuke's Chidori variations "Chidori Release"?

The word used for release can also mean style. Basically release isn't relegated to just natures, that's why there are kkg and tkg. So any type of manipulation would be a release. The different rasengan variations Naruto did early in the war couldn't be a release because they are using chakra, rasengan is still the shape manipulation. Same thing for chidori, that is also the shape manipulation. Again I ask you to take a look at eton which is manipulating ama. Kamui release obviously isn't an official name, but that's basically what it is.

 

[Mr Hiru]

...

You still insist that these powers are the same because they look alike, huh? Oh well... I guess I should show more manga facts to convince you. I didn't bought them before because it was common knowledge, but as you have that conviction in your own claims, I guess you at least deserve to be informed.

Let's start ensuring your reasoning. Please correct me if I interpreted you wrong.

- You claimed that Hagoromo, without Juubi chakra, could magically give Sasuke and Naruto "powers of the Juubi" (Senjutsu Chakra). This one is only based on ressemblance of powers. I can't really tell if this claim has some fundament behind, aside of appearances.

This said...I really can't understand your reasoning, honest. I would only understand that the TSB looks alike, as much... but aside of that, your reasoning doesn't hold water, because appearances is only "one" way to look things. You need to ask "why" do these powers look so alike, with some fundaments. I have some conclusions, after analyzing previous manga facts.

Please, read my reasoning.

- My reasoning speaks about current Hagoromo and current Juubi being entities with two completely excluding kinds of chakra, due the fact stated in ch. 510. But, I guess we would need even more fundaments aside of this.

Claim: Hagoromo was born with some of the fruits powers as well as Hamura, but the fruit doesn't hold the same properties as the Juubi. Proof: The Juubi wanted the chakra back, this is, the fruit.

You must be registered for see links

Deductive logic: Hagoromo was not born Jinchuuriki. The Juubi was reincarnated after Kaguya ate the fruit, ergo, The Juubi and the Fruit are complements which as a whole form the God Tree, the Shinjuu.

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

So it is completely safe assume that Juubi and Rikudou are independant entities. The only motive that explains why the powers given by Hagoromo (Rikudou Chakra = Shinjuu's Fruit Chakra) and those formed by the Juubi (Senjutsu Chakra = Juubi's Chakra) are so alike is because the common source of powers between these two... The God Tree.

There is no more in it.

Now, why can I tell that Rikudou Chakra and Senjutsu Chakra are not the same? Let me elaborate with proof.

The Holy Fruit (The sources of power of both Hagoromo and Hamura) was made of Pure Chakra, not of Senjutsu Chakra. This is the decisive proof that eliminates all possibilities of Rikudou Chakra being Senjutsu Chakra.

You must be registered for see links

And of course, the known description of the Juubi

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

...which is essentially nature energy. There you have it. Evidence is all you need to prove these things.

So, about the proof you're giving me:

TSB ressemblance won't do because the common sources of both Juubi and Rikudou is the Shinjuu, so it's natural that TTJ Madara and Rikudou had these ressemblance. But, I proved that Rikudou Chakra is not the same as Juubi's Chakra.

Black Chidori/Raikiri also won't do, because Rasengan and Senjutsu Rasengan are both white. As colors can be decieving, it's perfectly plausible for the Black Chidori to be a Chidori with Shinjuu's Fruit influence instead of Senjutsu. You can't just tell the difference based only in the color of the technique.

Therefore, if you want for me to believe in your reasoning, you should at least prove that somehow Rikudou Chakra (Ashura + Indra chakra = Shinjuu's Fruit Chakra) has the exact properties as Juubi's chakra (Senjutsu chakra = mix of all the beasts chakra). This is the correct way to prove that Sasuke's Rikudou powers are Senjutsu per se. For my part, I proved that they are not, necessarily. You're up for the homework now.

 

[valandil988]

Kamui Shuriken isn't a shape changed Kamui. It's the same concept as Yasaka Magatama, where the user creates projectiles with Susano'o and launches them at their target. Kakashi imbued Kamui's effect on the shuriken. He didn't shape change it.



You're the one making up stuff with this "space time cutter" thing.

People think just because a character doesn't detail every aspect of their jutsu when they use it, it means their jutsu doesn't have any certain effect. (I.e. Sasuke's black Chidori being a senjutsu Chidori even though he didn't say "Senpou: Chidori when he used it.)

Kamui is still ninjutsu. And ninjutsu has no effect on Kaguya. Only taijutsu and senjutsu does. Kakashi called it "Kamui Raikiri" because he used Kamui's intangibility effect on his body, except for the hand with the Raikiri. This caused the still-physical Raikiri to cut through Kaguya, and the rest of Kakashi's intangible body passed through her, which also prevents her from being able to turn around and counterattack Kakashi with her ash bones since he is intangible.

Oh God, You state two different things, Oh the user creates Yasaka Magatama in the form of kamui. But Kamui has ONLY been on point of sight using Kakashi's eye or Obito's point of contact. Yet obviously using both you can regulate the effect to create a shape changed Kamui projectile.

Stop cherry picking your results. Its obvious that Kakashi gained some manner of control over shape changing the kamui efffect to create similar effects to Sasuke's own Enton.

Also Kamui is not quite pure ninjutsu. Much like an earth technique you aren't creating the rocks to power the technique your moving earth etc that already exists. Sasuke's enton creates black flames from chakra directly. Just so with Obito's kamui he uses chakra to MANIPULATE space time, he doesn't create the effect purely from chakra.

Ergo much like dropping a rock on Kaguya's head, Kakashi could cut Kaguya using space time. Simple. Its the nature of the technique. Techniques like Chidori and Raikiri in their basic form could never actually harm Kaguya because she could absorb them. Only Taijutsu and physical attacks that do not rely on chakra to be the medium.

So yeah Kaguya is "unaffected" by Ninjutsu but really it just depends on the ninjutsu, its not an cover all statement. Directed energy attacks are ineffective as was shown numerous times by both Naruto and Sasuke. To harm her they had to get close and personal. As opposed to absorbing the rock she would have to destroy it. Two very different things.

Your statement relies on two aspects:

One its black and looks like Sasuke's black chidori.

Two he gained Obito's sage chakra for a few moments.
----------------------------------

One we saw Sasuke use black chidori on Madara, did he pierce his body? No he did not. Did Kakashi's technique pierce Kaguya's body? Somebody arguable far stronger than madara?

Two have we seen anything to suggest that Obito had actually gained even a portion of what the S06P gave Naruto and Sasuke? I'm not as confident of that. For example he did not gain any Rinnegan in his right eye, or any suggestion to the fact that he had gained any significant Yin power like the crescent seal.

Overall all Obito's showcased was the Sage's body. The diminished senjutsu of the six paths due to him not being a real sage. That and the juubi's power.

 

[SuperChief]

No, he does not.

 

[Shisho]

Naruto used his Sun Seal to heal people, why couldn't Sasuke's turn his attacks Senjutsu?

He cannot utilize Senjutsu Chakra anymore.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Naruto used his Sun Seal to heal people, why couldn't Sasuke's turn his attacks Senjutsu?

He cannot utilize Senjutsu Chakra anymore.

You got it right... last chapter just proved that Sasuke can't create Senjutsu chakra, he can only use it. It was expected, and logical.

My theory of the Moon Seal as a Curse Mark replacement to synthesize Senjutsu Chakra stands.

And my case rests.