[Discussion] Does Sasuke have senjutsu?

[valandil988]

Kakashi SO6P Senjutsu Enhanced Raikiri

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Sorry this just pisses me off A LOT!

Its not the black yin chakra of Hagaromo or even anything remotely like that. What it actually is is shape changed kamui. IE Kakashi used a kamui release technique. Its a space time cutter ergo the reason Kaguya was actually harmed by a chakra technique was not because its SO6P chakra but becuase Kakashi was using space and time itself to harm Kaguya.

It honestly has jack and shit to do with SO6P chakra (sure the fuel from Obito enhanced the effects but it was not the Yin chakra of the sage which sasuke received).

IE that means that Obito's sharingan was likely one of the few abilities that could actually hurt Kaguya with only its basic MS effects. Kamui is such an OP ability its just stupid.

 

[Zawerni]

Sorry this just pisses me off A LOT!

Its not the black yin chakra of Hagaromo or even anything remotely like that. What it actually is is shape changed kamui. IE Kakashi used a kamui release technique. Its a space time cutter ergo the reason Kaguya was actually harmed by a chakra technique was not because its SO6P chakra but becuase Kakashi was using space and time itself to harm Kaguya.

It honestly has jack and shit to do with SO6P chakra (sure the fuel from Obito enhanced the effects but it was not the Yin chakra of the sage which sasuke received).

IE that means that Obito's sharingan was likely one of the few abilities that could actually hurt Kaguya with only its basic MS effects. Kamui is such an OP ability its just stupid.

Check this out:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Kakashi got Rikudou power from Obito. And as has already been established, that Rikudou power is the same that Naruto and Sasuke received.

There is no such thing as "Kamui Release". That Raikiri is made up of Rikudou chakra, which is why it harmed Kaguya.

You can't change the shape of something that doesn't have a shape to begin with.

 

[DeathReaperSeal]

he can't make senjutsu on his own like naruto, case closed.

 

[ad0]

Madara does both. That why it is Madara>>your as aways

 

[Mr Hiru]

what are you talking about?

hagoromo while giving sasuke power still had his gudoudama floating on his back and his staff and those stuffs are only attainable when one gains to access to rikudous senjutsu which is born out as a result of the juubis chakra, so he did have the juubis chakra in him which is senjutsu chakra.

sasuke getting his chakra would mean he also got access to aspects of his senjutsu chakra which is same as kakashi getting some form of it chakra from the one obito took from madara which you yourself has acknowledged. you cant say one thing for one and then ignore it another when both are the same thing.

and you are missing the point. as long as sasuke has access to rikudous chakra he would always have access also to his senjutsu chakra and can use it as he pleases. its innate, he dosent need to draw any energy to get the chakra, he already has the chakra in him, all he has to do is access it and he has shown to do so. its is the chakra in him that made him use black chidori and not any moon seal except you want to say kakashi has moon seal as well which is obv false so you clearly wrong there.

also stop refuting whether black chidori is actually senjutsu. like i stated in my post he tells naruto to use an attack that contains senjutsu chakra, he then says he would use the six paths power too in order words he would do what he just asked naruto to do which is use an attack which contain sages chakra and he did by making his chidori black, chidori and raikiri being black means they contain senjutsu in them like sasukes curse seal chidori in part 1 its not so hard to understand.

I only will answer your question, since what follows up falls upon with the next answer.

Hagoromo's TSB are not the same as TTJ TSB.

When he used COAT to create the Bijuu, he completely removed the Bijuu chakra from his own body, this was stated in chapter 510, and then he sealed the Mazou in the moon.

Henceforth, it is virtually impossible that Rikudou gave Sasuke any of Juubi's power, because Rikudou didn't have any of Juubi's chakra at this point of the manga. Therefore, those who thinks that Rikudou chakra = Senjutsu chakra or that Rikudou TSB = TTJ TSB are fundamentally wrong.

So, this said...

hagoromo while giving sasuke power still had his gudoudama floating on his back and his staff and those stuffs are only attainable when one gains to access to rikudous senjutsu which is born out as a result of the juubis chakra, so he did have the juubis chakra in him which is senjutsu chakra.

Your logic falls.

 

[Draxus]

Check this out:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Kakashi got Rikudou power from Obito. And as has already been established, that Rikudou power is the same that Naruto and Sasuke received.

There is no such thing as "Kamui Release". That Raikiri is made up of Rikudou chakra, which is why it harmed Kaguya.

You can't change the shape of something that doesn't have a shape to begin with.

Can you explain Kamui Shuriken, then?

 

[King Of Pop]

=Mr Hiru;17561749]I only will answer your question, since what follows up falls upon with the next answer.

Hagoromo's TSB are not the same as TTJ TSB.

wat da? they are the same, they float around him same as they normally do as seen with obito, madara and naruto. saying they are not the same is completely baseless. they all come about from having the juubis chakra leading to rikudous senjutsu, thats a fact., you cannot have tsbs without the juubis chakra, i dunno what manga you are reading but that should be obvious.

When he used COAT to create the Bijuu, he completely removed the Bijuu chakra from his own body, this was stated in chapter 510, and then he sealed the Mazou in the moon.

am aware he removed the juubi from him however the gudoudamas on his back are enough to tell me that somhow hes still in possession of the juubi, its impossible to get them without its chakra. afterall hes a floating mass of chakra so no reason why he cant access the power he had during his lifetime even though he supposedly shouldnt have it.

Henceforth, it is virtually impossible that Rikudou gave Sasuke any of Juubi's power, because Rikudou didn't have any of Juubi's chakra at this point of the manga. Therefore, those who thinks that Rikudou chakra = Senjutsu chakra or that Rikudou TSB = TTJ TSB are fundamentally wrong.

sorry buddy the tsbs on him shows us he still had the juubis power as you only get that once you get a hold of it. you didnt give any proof why hes tsbs are different, all what you said is "they are different", thats not proof.

Your logic falls.

no it doesnt.

 

[valandil988]

Can you explain Kamui Shuriken, then?

Exactly....

Check this out:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Kakashi got Rikudou power from Obito. And as has already been established, that Rikudou power is the same that Naruto and Sasuke received.

There is no such thing as "Kamui Release". That Raikiri is made up of Rikudou chakra, which is why it harmed Kaguya.

You can't change the shape of something that doesn't have a shape to begin with.

Durrr he said "Kamui Raikiri" make up stuff if you want but Kamui + Raikiri means a space time lightning cutter. He did not say "Black Raikiri", or just plain Raikiri with enhanced S06P chakra. Its exactly the same effect as kamui shuriken except compressed into a hand held technique which yes you guessed it "cuts" or a better word would be "severs"

Ergo Kakashi shape changed kamui like he shape changes lightning for his own technique. He basically created a technique on the fly that not only surpasses the Hiraishin in its attack abilities but can also harm a god....no mean feat.

 

[Zawerni]

Can you explain Kamui Shuriken, then?

Kamui Shuriken isn't a shape changed Kamui. It's the same concept as Yasaka Magatama, where the user creates projectiles with Susano'o and launches them at their target. Kakashi imbued Kamui's effect on the shuriken. He didn't shape change it.

Exactly....



Durrr he said "Kamui Raikiri" make up stuff if you want but Kamui + Raikiri means a space time lightning cutter. He did not say "Black Raikiri", or just plain Raikiri with enhanced S06P chakra. Its exactly the same effect as kamui shuriken except compressed into a hand held technique which yes you guessed it "cuts" or a better word would be "severs"

Ergo Kakashi shape changed kamui like he shape changes lightning for his own technique. He basically created a technique on the fly that not only surpasses the Hiraishin in its attack abilities but can also harm a god....no mean feat.

You're the one making up stuff with this "space time cutter" thing.

People think just because a character doesn't detail every aspect of their jutsu when they use it, it means their jutsu doesn't have any certain effect. (I.e. Sasuke's black Chidori being a senjutsu Chidori even though he didn't say "Senpou: Chidori when he used it.)

Kamui is still ninjutsu. And ninjutsu has no effect on Kaguya. Only taijutsu and senjutsu does. Kakashi called it "Kamui Raikiri" because he used Kamui's intangibility effect on his body, except for the hand with the Raikiri. This caused the still-physical Raikiri to cut through Kaguya, and the rest of Kakashi's intangible body passed through her, which also prevents her from being able to turn around and counterattack Kakashi with her ash bones since he is intangible.

 

[Mr Hiru]

however the gudoudamas on his back are enough to tell me that somhow hes still in possession of the juubi

Claim is overruled. Motive: It's a conjecture that has proof of the contrary, in chapter 510.

its impossible to get them without its chakra.

Claim is overruled. Motive: Same as the previous one. It is proved that Hagoromo didn't have any bijuu chakra left in him in chapter 510, so it is impossible for him to have posession of the juubi in the war.

afterall hes a floating mass of chakra so no reason why he cant access the power he had during his lifetime even though he supposedly shouldnt have it.

Claim is overruled. Motive: Baseless conjecture without any kind of tangible evidence, with lacking reasoning.

Let me elaborate, since there is no offense intent here:

- The only fact in there is that Hagoromo in the war was a floating mass of chakra, this is true.

- "Floating mass of chakra" so "no reason why he can't access to the power he had during his lifetime"... Common sense speaks about Hagoromo only being able to have the powers he had when he created this chakra projection. Way after the creation of Bijuu (else case, he wouldn't have knowledge about the Bijuu, for starters).

- You can't insert bijuu chakra in the Rikudou Chakra Projection when you don't hold any bijuu chakra to do so. This was said in chapter 510... he created the Nine Bijuu with the Juubi Chakra.

Further elaboration:

- Rikudou Chakra Projection manifested in Naruto and Sasuke consciousness not because they have Bijuu Chakra (Sasuke didn't have a Bijuu, for starters), but because they were transmigrants. The sole fact that Sasuke didn't have Bijuu is proof enough that Rikudou Chakra is not the same as the Juubi Chakra. There is resemblance in those powers, but they are not the same.

am aware he removed the juubi from him

This is enough evidence to claim that Rikudou Chakra is not the same thing as Juubi Chakra.

Therefore, everything else you said is conjecture.

/soloed

 

[Draxus]

Kamui Shuriken isn't a shape changed Kamui. It's the same concept as Yasaka Magatama, where the user creates projectiles with Susano'o and launches them at their target. Kakashi imbued Kamui's effect on the shuriken. He didn't shape change it.

Okay... you're officially full of it. Kamui in the shape of shuriken's isn't shapge changed kamui. You've officially lost it. How can they be imbued magatama if they aren't in the shape of magatamas? It the same concept as Sasuke's eton magatama and arrows he uses.

Even if we go w/ your BS cop out, then we can say Kakashi "imbued" his raikiri w/ kamui.

 

[Zawerni]

Okay... you're officially full of it. Kamui in the shape of shuriken's isn't shapge changed kamui. You've officially lost it. How can they be imbued magatama if they aren't in the shape of magatamas? It the same concept as Sasuke's eton magatama and arrows he uses.

Even if we go w/ your BS cop out, then we can say Kakashi "imbued" his raikiri w/ kamui.

Sasuke's Magatama aren't the same shape as Itachi's Magatama. So Sasuke's Magatama aren't Magatama?

I never said the Kamui Shuriken are Magatama. I said it's the same concept as the Magatama. Kakashi just gave them a Kamui effect. The same way Sasuke can give his Magatama an Enton effect.

And as I said, Kamui is ninjutsu. Ninjutsu doesn't work on Kaguya. Therefore Kamui wouldn't work on Kaguya. If it did, why didn't Obito just Kamui Kaguya's body while they were all under the effect of her gravity jutsu? She wouldn't have been able to get away.

You can clearly see Kakashi used Kamui to become intangible here

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Right before he attacks Kaguya. He made his body intangible except for the Raikiri, which is why he passes through her body with the exception of the Raikiri that harms her

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mr Hiru]

Sasuke's Magatama aren't the same shape as Itachi's Magatama. So Sasuke's Magatama aren't Magatama?

I never said the Kamui Shuriken are Magatama. I said it's the same concept as the Magatama. Kakashi just gave them a Kamui effect. The same way Sasuke can give his Magatama an Enton effect.

And as I said, Kamui is ninjutsu. Ninjutsu doesn't work on Kaguya. Therefore Kamui wouldn't work on Kaguya. If it did, why didn't Obito just Kamui Kaguya's body while they were all under the effect of her gravity jutsu? She wouldn't have been able to get away.

You can clearly see Kakashi used Kamui to become intangible here

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Right before he attacks Kaguya. He made his body intangible except for the Raikiri, which is why he passes through her body with the exception of the Raikiri that harms her

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Yet Kamui was able to work on Naruto, who under the logic of yours, contains Rikudou Chakra which is essentially the same as Kaguya... doesn't it?

So, is it imbued with Normal Chakra or Rikudou Chakra?

 

[Zawerni]

Yet Kamui was able to work on Naruto, who under the logic of yours, contains Rikudou Chakra which is essentially the same as Kaguya... doesn't it?

So, is it imbued with Normal Chakra or Rikudou Chakra?

It was never said ninjutsu was ineffective on Naruto.
He doesn't have a Rinnegan to absorb ninjutsu.

Kakashi's Raikiri is made of Rikudou chakra. Rikudou chakra contains sage chakra.

This is evident by Hagoromo having gudoudama even after losing the Juubi. Six Paths Sage Chakra is one of the requirements to create the gudoudama. It is never stated Hagoromo's gudoudama are different to Naruto's, Obito's, Madara's, or Kaguya's. They are all created the same way. They are all the same.

Sasuke has senjutsu from Rikudou chakra. He is unable to gather it on his own and cannot enter Sage Mode. But he can utilize it properly if it is given to him.

If Hagoromo had no sage chakra at all, then how was Naruto given Rikudou Sage Mode from receiving Hagoromo's chakra?

 

[Draxus]

Sasuke's Magatama aren't the same shape as Itachi's Magatama. So Sasuke's Magatama aren't Magatama?

I never said the Kamui Shuriken are Magatama. I said it's the same concept as the Magatama. Kakashi just gave them a Kamui effect. The same way Sasuke can give his Magatama an Enton effect.

And as I said, Kamui is ninjutsu. Ninjutsu doesn't work on Kaguya. Therefore Kamui wouldn't work on Kaguya. If it did, why didn't Obito just Kamui Kaguya's body while they were all under the effect of her gravity jutsu? She wouldn't have been able to get away.

You can clearly see Kakashi used Kamui to become intangible here

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Right before he attacks Kaguya. He made his body intangible except for the Raikiri, which is why he passes through her body with the exception of the Raikiri that harms her

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You seem to have glossed over the major point which was that he MANIPULATED THE SHAPE.

Sasuke's magatamas are magatamas because they're shaped like magatamas. He did that w/ his eton ability. According to you, imbuing magatamas with kamui randomly turns them into shuriken

 

[Zawerni]

You seem to have glossed over the major point which was that he MANIPULATED THE SHAPE.

Sasuke's magatamas are magatamas because they're shaped like magatamas. He did that w/ his eton ability. According to you, imbuing magatamas with kamui randomly turns them into shuriken

Except I neither said nor implied that.

Since you seem to have low reading comprehension, I'll help you out with this.

Take a look here at the scan of Kakashi forming the Kamui Shuriken:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"What about this? Kamui's power on these shuriken!!"

"On these shuriken". This means he created the shuriken, took Kamui's power, and put in on the shuriken. As I have been saying.

Notice he didn't say "Kamui's power as these shuriken". That would mean he shape changed Kamui into shuriken. But that isn't what he said.

 

[Draxus]

Except I neither said nor implied that.

Since you seem to have low reading comprehension, I'll help you out with this.

Take a look here at the scan of Kakashi forming the Kamui Shuriken:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"What about this? Kamui's power on these shuriken!!"

"On these shuriken". This means he created the shuriken, took Kamui's power, and put in on the shuriken. As I have been saying.

Notice he didn't say "Kamui's power as these shuriken". That would mean he shape changed Kamui into shuriken. But that isn't what he said.

Your is the only comprehension that seems to be lacking as all I've ever said was that you are wrong about him being able to change the shape of kumai. Taking a fan sub word for word and trying to use it as proof is weak at best. You could interprete that a number of ways. Seriously, you can't except kumai can be shaped, but you're willing to believe it can be put on top of things... like what or when has this happened in the manga? If it can put put on or around something, isn't it being shaped?

You are wrong about kakashi not being able to manipulate kumai in either case.

 

[King Of Pop]

smh.

=Mr Hiru;17563765]Claim is overruled. Motive: It's a conjecture that has proof of the contrary, in chapter 510.

conjecture? its a manga fact

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

this guys all got the tsbs as a result of gaining rikudous senjutsu mode which is born out of the juubis chakra each had, manga fact rikudous has

You must be registered for see links

so therefore he has the juubis chakra. your refute is that "the tsbs are different" which is a very flawed statement considering nothing was ever stated or shown that the balls differ. so unless you can prove to me that its different then i suggests you concede because your arguments are not making sense.

Claim is overruled. Motive: Same as the previous one. It is proved that Hagoromo didn't have any bijuu chakra left in him in chapter 510, so it is impossible for him to have posession of the juubi in the war.

but he does have something that is only attainable due to rikudous senjutsu chakra which is borne out of having the juubis chakra so he does possess it lmao its not so hard.

Claim is overruled. Motive: Baseless conjecture without any kind of tangible evidence, with lacking reasoning.

not sure if serious? my reasnoning is the damn tsbs on him which is proof, were is yours? ohh wait "tsbs are different" lmao when they have all shown to be made from the same substance.

- "Floating mass of chakra" so "no reason why he can't access to the power he had during his lifetime"... Common sense speaks about Hagoromo only being able to have the powers he had when he created this chakra projection. Way after the creation of Bijuu (else case, he wouldn't have knowledge about the Bijuu, for starters).

am very much aware, however common sense also entails that one does not simply ignore a current panel just because it shouldnt be so, if hagoromo is shown having tsbs which is only attainable when one gains access to rikudous senjutsu then it simply means the author is telling us that he still possess his power(juubi) he had when alive even though hes a spirt form. simple.

- You can't insert bijuu chakra in the Rikudou Chakra Projection when you don't hold any bijuu chakra to do so. This was said in chapter 510... he created the Nine Bijuu with the Juubi Chakra.

no one is denying this so i dunno why you keep stating it.

Further elaboration:

- Rikudou Chakra Projection manifested in Naruto and Sasuke consciousness not because they have Bijuu Chakra (Sasuke didn't have a Bijuu, for starters), but because they were transmigrants. The sole fact that Sasuke didn't have Bijuu is proof enough that Rikudou Chakra is not the same as the Juubi Chakra. There is resemblance in those powers, but they are not the same.

his chakra alone has senjutsu in it. naruto got his yang which mixed with the bijjus he had hence he got rikudou mode, sasuke got his yin and is able to tap into his sen-chakra as hes shown to do. kakashi has shown same, by getting rikudous chakra he could use black raikiri, stop denying the manga mate.

This is enough evidence to claim that Rikudou Chakra is not the same thing as Juubi Chakra.

nope.

/soloed

you didnt solo jack, all you are doing is denying.

ill repeat.. tsbs are attainable when one gains access to rikudou senjutsu which is as a result of the juubis chakra, manga fact as shown with madara obito and naruto. hagoromo had access to it upon giving naruto and sasuke power so therefore hagoromo still has access to the juubis chakra in his spirit form even though he lost it. rikudous senjutsu mode is born out as a result. simple

 

[Zawerni]

Your is the only comprehension that seems to be lacking as all I've ever said was that you are wrong about him being able to change the shape of kumai. Taking a fan sub word for word and trying to use it as proof is weak at best. You could interprete that a number of ways. Seriously, you can't except kumai can be shaped, but you're willing to believe it can be put on top of things... like what or when has this happened in the manga? If it can put put on or around something, isn't it being shaped?

You are wrong about kakashi not being able to manipulate kumai in either case.

Then show me a Viz translation that says otherwise.

The mangapanda version was the only one I could find.

Unless you can prove Kakashi shape manipulated Kamui into shuriken, you can't claim I'm wrong.

 

[UzumakiRyu]

Then show me a Viz translation that says otherwise.

The mangapanda version was the only one I could find.

Unless you can prove Kakashi shape manipulated Kamui into shuriken, you can't claim I'm wrong.

What chapter is this? Where Kakashi gains Obito's Rikudo infused Chakra?