Is Sasuke's vision that bad?

[BenjerminGaye]

I need proof, given that people will always be people and the manga showed that Hogomoro himself failed? This is too rich. No idea what other nonsense you are endeavouring to throw my way. It hardly makes sense.

Just like how I can't prove whether or not the tailed beasts will be used again, you can prove any future uchiha won't be like the dumbasses that came before them.

If you're gonna use history and "people will be people" as proof as to why tailed beasts will be used again, I can use history and "uchiha will be uchiha" as proof. Either way to claim sasuke's view as justified(despite it being practically word for word danzo's jaded view) while disregarding naruto's is just laughable.

 

[Xāvî1]

his vision is alright i guess but his motives are evil!!

 

[Ultimateone]

I agree with most of what you said. And its true, Sasuke's plan is flawed, but its not as flawed or as unrealistic as Naruto's by a long shot.

What I do disagree with is you saying that 99% of the Narutoverse wouldnt be able to capture any of the tailed beast. Kakuzu and Hidan, two of the weakest members of the akatsuki was able to capture the two tails without much effort. A midtier character like Deidara captured the three tails on his own. I believe either the third or fourth raikage caught the 8 tails with the help of some cloud shinobi. Its not impossible for a group of people to capture a tailed beast. Sasuke killing them is where the flaw is.

Sasuke plans on killing the kages, not because they're not willing to change to make peace, but to prevent the past from repeating itself. The first kages of Hashirama's time were also willing to put everything aside to make peace between the villages, but something clearly went wrong and the world had two great ninja wars because of it. Naruto will bring peace, I can guarantee it, but it will only be temporary. History does repeat itself and has been since the time of Indra and Ashura.

What you said about the whole reviving the Uchiha thing is why the Uchiha are the way they are today. That mentality is why Tobirama put the Uchiha in the back of the village, that mentality is why the massacre of Uchiha's was requested by Konoha elders and Danzo, because of the massacre Itachi became an Akatsuki member and Sasuke was revenge driven. Its that mentality that prevented Madara from becoming the second hokage. Its peoples fear of the Uchiha that make the Uchiha the way they are. They are biologically emotional driven, but they're all kinds of emotions; there's anger, hatred, and jealously, and then there's happiness, love, and joy.

As for killing Naruto..meh. I agree that is fucked up for Sasuke to want to kill Naruto, but you got to do what you got to do. Thats one of the biggest things that sets Naruto and Sasuke apart, Sasuke is able to set priorities and make sacrifices for a greater good.

Neither Naruto nor Sasuke's vision is perfect, they both have good and bad. I just think Sasuke's vision has more good.

sasuke plans to ill the kage because he wants to be the only authority in the world and they would stand in his way of that. that basically points to sasuke wanting to start some kind of dictatorship or monarchy. neither of these two things works. so him killing the kage will do him no good anyways. kage are easily replaced by shinobi right under them. unless sasuke plans to kill everybody that could become a kage, his plan fails again. especially if he plans to make these people follow him, he wont get that if he just starts killing people.

while i agree, the uchiha were treated badly in a way when they were in the village, it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be revived. reviving them just gives indra somebody to transmigrate into, and that guy's spirit is a parasite that continues to just spread pain and tries to control everything.

the only greater good sasuke cares about is himself. he claims that he does things for peace, but thats not true. he just wants things his way. naruto is no the problem, yet he wants to iradicate him because narto wont just let him assassinate people and because he has bijuu chakra. the fact that sasuke just plans to kill anybody that doesn't agree with his radical ways is not only a reason why he should be stopped, but why the uchiha shouldn't be revived.

while naruto views may be received as childish or naive they are actually really good. naruto wants to achve piece through understanding. while you may find it stupid or whatever, he has basically already started achieving that. that understanding will automatically led to changes in politics and their way of life. simply just killing off people will not do it.

 

[RedShadow]

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People tend to say Sasuke has turned evil again, believing that his revolution will bring upon a dark dictatorship. Everyone can agree some of Sasuke's intentions are a bit immoral and cruel, but is Sasuke's vision really all that bad?

Sasuke plans on killing all the tailed beasts, so things like this;

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This

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Or Even This

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Doesn’t happen.

Killing the tailed beasts prevents wars, people from becoming Jinchuuriki’s, and eradicates the possible return of Kaguya, the ten tails and Infinite Tsukiyomi post Naruto's/Sasuke's death. Although the action of killing the tailed beasts seems immoral and cruel, in the long run, a world without the tailed beasts would be a better world. The tailed beasts are like nukes, it doesn’t matter who’s in possession of them, they're are still goddamn nukes.
Sasuke plans to kill all the current kages

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By killing the Kages, he erracticates the failed kage system Hashirama established between the villages to establish his own. Hashirama’s system was intended to bring peace and balance between the villages, but failed, resulting in the first and second ninja war.

Sasuke plans on enforcing peace

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Unlike the hokages and other world leaders of the past who tried to maintain peace, Sasuke plans on enforcing peace which is not immoral or bad in the slightest. The only people who would have a problem with enforced peace are criminals, murderers, and instagators.

Sasuke could enforce peace in many ways, like turning the Anbu Black Ops into a sort of public police enforcement or by creating new laws and punishments for breaking those laws. And seeing how Sasuke longer has his revenge bloodlust mentality, I can trust that his rules and punishments will be fair. If Sasuke was still insane, he would have killed Sakura rather than putting her in a genjutsu.

Sasuke plans on reviving the Uchiha clan

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Reviving his clan has probably been Sasuke’s most important goal after his goal of killing Itachi. Now that Hagoromo has put a balance between the Senju and the Uchiha (very crucial), there is no longer a reason for the Uchiha elder brother to become jealous of the younger senju brother. Since Sasuke would be hokage Senju’s like Tobirama won’t be in power to limit and segregate the Uchiha clan. They will be able to exist in equality like every other clan.

And we all know how Sasuke’s going to achieve this. I personally think Sasuke should get with either Hinata or Karin for that powerful senju/uzimaki or Byakugan dojutsu blood line. Fodder clanswomen like Sakura and Tenten are out of the question.

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Sasuke plans on killing Naruto

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Naruto is the only thing standing in Sasuke’s way of achieving his goals. Everyone knows Sasuke is not going to kill Naruto or vice versa. Out of all his plans this seems to be the most “evil”, but there is no other way for him to achieve his plans without killing Naruto.

In summary, Sasuke plans into revolutionize the entire ninja world in a monarchy type system, establishing a new everlasting system of enforced peace that will last past his death, while reviving his village; returning it to its former glory.
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Naruto is in opposition of Sasuke's vision, here are his plans.

Spoiler

Naruto plans on becoming hokage

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This is as far as we know what Naruto plans on doing. I personally believe Naruto’s time as hokage will be similar to Hashirama’s time as hokage. Naruto seemingly will be able to maintain the peace within Konoha and between the other kages and villages similar to how Hashirama did.

He also intends on allowing the Bijuu to roam free which is an extremely bad idea in my opinion. You could say that Naruto could protect them from being captured or whenever they’re in trouble since he is connected to every single tailed beast, but Naruto’s not immortal.

After the 80-90 years Naruto lives his life, everything will go back to the way it was before he was hokage, just like Hashirama. People will try and obtain the power of the tailed beasts and if Naruto has no plans to alter the system in anyway, the unbalance of power between villages will return. Kages will not be able to resolve these global problems since their primary objective is to look out for their village resulting in more wars and violence.

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In summary Naruto wants to become hokage, cleansing the current kage system, maintaining a temporary peace, and protecting his friends and love ones along the way.

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It is possible that through Sasuke's explanation of what it means to be hokage to him that Naruto will adopt some of his ideals or at least get a better idea of what plans he has for when he's hokage, but as of right now his intentions are extremely vague.

Based on both of these viewpoints and directly on these view points alone, I believe Sasuke's vision is more realistic and will have a more positive affect on the ninja world as a whole and in the long run, but tell me what you think.

I truly believe you are an Uchiha Sasuke Fanboy, but I have no objections to your thread.

 

[so12p]

Yes, yes it is. About the worst ilk that can be (dictatorship).

 

[kimb]

I truly believe you are an Uchiha Sasuke Fanboy, but I have no objections to your thread.

Sadly I'm not any sort of fapboy, but I do believe Sasuke's vision is better than Naruto's.

 

[kimb]

You have no proof of such. That's why it's baseless. What makes it even more hilarious is the fact that Sasuke is following the same thing madara, etc etc back down to indra did. Despite receiving equal portions of rikudo chakra.


Lol switch tailed beast with uchiha, then realize your prejudice, and stupidity

But that means your argument that nothing will change is also baseless, which is stupid.

 

[shelke]

3/5 of those Kages have nothing to do with the current system and have even tried to make things better.
Tsunade formed a peace treaty with the sand village and even sent help with Gaara was captured. Mei and stopped the hunting of kkg in her village and Gaara hasn't really done anything bad. The only rotten apples amongst the current kage are Onoki and Ay , but even they have began to change. Besides what gives Sasuke the right to be the "judge" the kages. He has no right to be taking the higher moral ground here considering the crimes he's committed.

Which three Kages? Sasuke saw the judgmental attitude Gaara displayed at the summit. He isn't fit to lead, given his own obscenely tainted past. Tsunade is the only one Sasuke will unjustly kill. I have zero clue which third Kage is not culpable given Mist's bloody mist past and it being the strong hold of Akatsuki. Onoki outright declared that everyone used Akatsuki - bar Ae and Gaara.

Sasuke has as much of a right to judge them, as they had to pass a death judgement on him, despite their villagers having hands in cross border terrorism and nothing but destruction they created with three great ninja wars. If their system remains, new conflicts will arise. The best method to end the conflicts for good is to scrape Tobirama's poor political system - which ALL villages ended up taking - and starting it anew.

What crimes has Sasuke committed that outclass the war crimes done by these Kages - bar Tsunade?

Just like how I can't prove whether or not the tailed beasts will be used again, you can prove any future uchiha won't be like the dumbasses that came before them.

If you're gonna use history and "people will be people" as proof as to why tailed beasts will be used again, I can use history and "uchiha will be uchiha" as proof. Either way to claim sasuke's view as justified(despite it being practically word for word danzo's jaded view) while disregarding naruto's is just laughable.

That's bull shit and you know it. One cannot contain human greed, but reduce opportunities for it. In this case, eradicating the beasts.

What Uchiha will be Uchiha? Just like Senju were Senju, always fighting for power as BZ clearly stated? Or as Uzumaki were Uzumaki, helping Senju maintain their might in warfare? Stop trying to show Senju in some saintly light. it's pathetic.

Naruto was always a retard, and that hasn't changed. Glad to see he isn't short of fans, despite his outright offensive retardation.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

That's bull shit and you know it. One cannot contain human greed, but reduce opportunities for it. In this case, eradicating the beasts.

What Uchiha will be Uchiha? Just like Senju were Senju, always fighting for power as BZ clearly stated? Or as Uzumaki were Uzumaki, helping Senju maintain their might in warfare? Stop trying to show Senju in some saintly light. it's pathetic.

Naruto was always a retard, and that hasn't changed. Glad to see he isn't short of fans, despite his outright offensive retardation.

It's not tho. History shows this. The bold is contradictions at its finest.

Senju were senju/human were human etc it comes back down to greed. Uchiha aren't exempt from this.
Madara proved it
Obito proved it.
Sasuke proved it.
Izuna proved it.
Etc etc.
And I never even mentioned the Senju. That's just your made up assumptions. (As usual)

@ underlined. Is that supposed to be way of justifing sasuke's actions? I dosen't counter what I said... it's just mindless naruto bashing.

Do better.

 

[shelke]

It's not tho. History shows this. The bold is contradictions at its finest.

Senju were senju/human were human etc it comes back down to greed. Uchiha aren't exempt from this.
Madara proved it
Obito proved it.
Sasuke proved it.
Izuna proved it.
Etc etc.
And I never even mentioned the Senju. That's just your made up assumptions. (As usual)

@ underlined. Is that supposed to be way of justifing sasuke's actions? I dosen't counter what I said... it's just mindless naruto bashing.

Do better.

Eliminating the one thing that would help make warfare more deadly. Yeah, contradiction all right.

What is Naruto exactly related to? There are only two opposing clans. If you call one out, then you are glorifying the other one by default. The rest of this is preposterous. What did Madara and Izuna and Sasuke prove? Care to elaborate on it? Madara and Izuna fought in wars, just like other clans did. Madara and Izuna didn't trust senju. They weren't wrong. Sasuke avanged or wanted to avange his people. Nothing wrong with that.

Funny, as you seem to forget THREE ninja wars these people fought without any Uchiha involved, and left orphans and destruction in their wake, completely destabilizing Rain's economy and stability. You don't see any evil in that. You don't see any evil in cross-border terrorim. You don't see any evil in using terrorist activities or funding them simply to keep ninja villages funds from going dry. You don't see any evil in random incursion, killing of people etc etc.

But you actually support it, by stating that ninja systems should be maintained and future war-mongering should be propagated. How cute. Clearly the Uchiha Clan were behind it all.

There are only two ideals now; Naruto and Sasuke's. This isn't bashing but a truer picture of Naruto and his rubbish ideals.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Eliminating the one thing that would help make warfare more deadly. Yeah, contradiction all right.

What is Naruto exactly related to? There are only two opposing clans. If you call one out, then you are glorifying the other one by default. The rest of this is preposterous. What did Madara and Izuna and Sasuke prove? Care to elaborate on it? Madara and Izuna fought in wars, just like other clans did. Madara and Izuna didn't trust senju. They weren't wrong. Sasuke avanged or wanted to avange his people. Nothing wrong with that.

Funny, as you seem to forget THREE ninja wars these people fought without any Uchiha involved, and left orphans and destruction in their wake, completely destabilizing Rain's economy and stability. You don't see any evil in that. You don't see any evil in cross-border terrorim. You don't see any evil in using terrorist activities or funding them simply to keep ninja villages funds from going dry. You don't see any evil in random incursion, killing of people etc etc.

But you actually support it, by stating that ninja systems should be maintained and future war-mongering should be propagated. How cute. Clearly the Uchiha Clan were behind it all.

There are only two ideals now; Naruto and Sasuke's. This isn't bashing but a truer picture of Naruto and his rubbish ideals.

Because ninjutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu in it of it self isn't deady. What. Sasuke's gonna remove that too? Lol

False. I don't know where you got the notion that calling one out means you side with the other. That's just a false perception created by your fanboyism. Nothing in this world is that black and white.


I'm calling both out idiot. Never have I defended either idea. Naruto's to idealistic and sasuke is setting up to be a dictator. Now begone.

 

[shelke]

Because ninjutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu in it of it self isn't deady. What. Sasuke's gonna remove that too? Lol

False. I don't know where you got the notion that calling one out means you side with the other. That's just a false perception created by your fanboyism. Nothing in this world is that black and white.


I'm calling both out idiot. Never have I defended either idea. Naruto's to idealistic and sasuke is setting up to be a dictator. Now begone.

Using tailed beasts obviously doesn't make things worse. Who are we kidding, right?

Your blame game is getting old. You didn't even counter my other points. As there isn't anything to counter them.

Should I care? Yeah, don't think so.

 

[TrollingSage]

Using tailed beasts obviously doesn't make things worse. Who are we kidding, right?

Your blame game is getting old. You didn't even counter my other points. As there isn't anything to counter them.

Should I care? Yeah, don't think so.

A sharingan is an infinitely more effective tool than tailed beasts ever were. For starters no one can control a tailed beast's chakra without a sharingan or Hashirama's wood. Not to mention the only way to revive Kaguya again is through the rinnegan. Sasuke should do get rid of the sharingan/rinnegan for the sake of the world

 

[shelke]

A sharingan is an infinitely more effective tool than tailed beasts ever were. For starters no one can control a tailed beast's chakra without a sharingan or Hashirama's wood. Not to mention the only way to revive Kaguya again is through the rinnegan. Sasuke should do get rid of the sharingan/rinnegan for the sake of the world

Did all villages pay the Uchihas to put beasts within vessels? They all had their own containment methods. That makes 8 Bijuus who were put in vessels without any uchiha interference. Rinnegan has many other uses as well.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Using tailed beasts obviously doesn't make things worse. Who are we kidding, right?

Your blame game is getting old. You didn't even counter my other points. As there isn't anything to counter them.

Should I care? Yeah, don't think so.

The only effective way to use a tailed beast is a perfect jinchuuriki or (the irony) sharingan. Yet nin/Gen/tai can be learned by anyone.

There's nothing to counter. The first 3 great wars weren't over tailed beasts. And the warring states (defending your clan as you so nicely put it ) wasn't any better.

You should if you're gonna reply to me.

 

[TrollingSage]

Did all villages pay the Uchihas to put beasts within vessels? They all had their own containment methods. That makes 8 Bijuus who were put in vessels without any uchiha interference. Rinnegan has many other uses as well.

How many instances of the bijuu actually being used in a war is there in the manga? Apart from Madara , Hashirama, Bee, Naruto and maybe Yagura, no one has been capable of controlling a bijuu's power. The villages might have had means of confining and sealing them, but they couldn't find any jinchuriki that could control the beast's power for them to be effective weapons of war.

 

[shelke]

The only effective way to use a tailed beast is a perfect jinchuuriki or (the irony) sharingan. Yet nin/Gen/tai can be learned by anyone.

There's nothing to counter. The first 3 great wars weren't over tailed beasts. And the warring states (defending your clan as you so nicely put it ) wasn't any better.

You should if you're gonna reply to me.

Still avoiding the questions about Three wars and all the related stuff I typed?

Wait, what? You must be seriously joking, as the three wars were between these five villages. Brush up your history as stealing Kurama - the most powerful tailed beast - was the main target of three villages.

Why post something for a point that is not about anything decent?

 

[shelke]

How many instances of the bijuu actually being used in a war is there in the manga? Apart from Madara , Hashirama, Bee, Naruto and maybe Yagura, no one has been capable of controlling a bijuu's power. The villages might have had means of confining and sealing them, but they couldn't find any jinchuriki that could control the beast's power for them to be effective weapons of war.

How many wars have you seen? The manga begins when Third war is already over. Let's not make outlandish statements. Those are perfect Jins. Two Tails host showed great control, even if she wasn't a perfect Jin. Hence, we can safely venture it for others as well. Again, you have no proof of theis, when we have seen considerable control from the likes of Two-Tails host.

Kisame also claimed that the four tails host gave him a lot of trouble as a Jin. So what can we safely assume from this? My argument does have more weight to it.

 

[TrollingSage]

How many wars have you seen? The manga begins when Third war is already over. Let's not make outlandish statements. Those are perfect Jins. Two Tails host showed great control, even if she wasn't a perfect Jin. Hence, we can safely venture it for others as well. Again, you have no proof of theis, when we have seen considerable control from the likes of Two-Tails host.

Kisame also claimed that the four tails host gave him a lot of trouble as a Jin. So what can we safely assume from this? My argument does have more weight to it.

The four tails might have given Kisame trouble but he still captured him. It wasn't just him. All the other jinchurikis bar Naruto and Bee were captured by the Akatsuki as well. In terms of military potential, a jinchuriki who can't perfectly control his bijuu isn't any more of an asset than a highly skilled shinobi.
Here's a question for you. If someone people were capturing lions and treating them cruelly, forcing the lions to became so aggressive they escape and attack humans, how would you solve that problem. Eradicate the lions or stop humans from capturing them?

 

[shelke]

The four tails might have given Kisame trouble but he still captured him. It wasn't just him. All the other jinchurikis bar Naruto and Bee were captured by the Akatsuki as well. In terms of military potential, a jinchuriki who can't perfectly control his bijuu isn't any more of an asset than a highly skilled shinobi.
Here's a question for you. If someone people were capturing lions and treating them cruelly, forcing the lions to became so aggressive they escape and attack humans, how would you solve that problem. Eradicate the lions or stop humans from capturing them?

Kisame captured him because 1) he's not an ordinary ninja 2) he had the right tools. Do you think any Tom **** and Harry can accomplish what Kisame did and without Samehada at that? The answer is a big fat no. Also, do you think Akatuski are ordinary ninjas? Deidara defeated Gaara on his own turf without using any high tier bombs. He didn't even switch to C2. Do you think any other ninja would have done that? No.

Heck, even Naruto was defeated had Nagato not given into the whole Jiraiya's novel logic. I get your point about animal cruelty, but these are no ordinary animals.