Minato vs Tobirama *No FTG*

[Apêx1]

Minato didn't even pull off his rasen senkou chourinbu kousanshiki during his assault on Jubito despite initially saying he will use it to open a path for Naruto and Sasuke. He instead used a kunai(that broke). I think it happened because he was so emotionally struggling/unstable that he didn't even do what he initially intended to do(he was having fbs of Obito/regretting the situation before the clash).

He couldn't have blocked it after the gudodama exploded because this is what happens when it explodes:

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

He would have appeared severely damaged if he blocked it after. Conclusion: He blocked it before

There is nothing wrong in my premise. I presented a simple thing that you just apparently aren't smart enough to understand

The fact you now uses SM Naruto as an example to say he has better reflexes than Minato just shows how out of touch you are concerning those arguments, not even understanding that during the passage in question, Jubito was simply not caring at all, thinking he can't be hurt by their attacks. Not to mention that later on he seemed to be surprised he couldn't phase, so maybe he was trying to phase through the attack instead

Either way i think i've tried my best to explain my points and the way it goes i feel like i'm arguing against a wall, so i can't be bothered continuing, so you can believe what you want

@bold, almost as ironic as the fact you think getting demolished implies a feat.
Saying it will open a path to Naruto and Sasuke doesn't mean it will actually work, nor do you have anything to suggest it could do what it was claimed to, due to its lack of known mechanics or any feats at all. inb4 you know how it works. Emotional struggle is contributing nothing to this debate, it's absolutely irrelevant.

Okay, I don't recall that. Now that I saw it, I still fail to see how Tobirama's clone is being implied to have supposedly been there when it happened, yet simply couldn't perceive it. You are claiming that Minato's eyes have greater ability than Tobirama by doing so, which is fallacious and doesn't have relevancy to the actual reaction speed arguments. Anyways, not everything is accounted for by Kishi, Kishi either didn't think of the fact that Shadow clones give their original their memories/experiences, or there are factors which we aren't accounting. However, saying that the Gudo Dama was put up faster than Tobirama could see is irrelevant, since mindly reacting to something that is only perceivable with the eyes, means Minato's eyes are superior to Tobirama's, when that isn't the case nor is such a thing implies. More so, Gudo Dama formation=/=hand movement, Tobirama not being able to react to Gudo Dama formation implies Minato cannot either, since Tobirama's reaction speeds feats wise>Minato's even if Juubito is 5 times slower than Juubito v2, hypothetically (but isn't the case).

Fair enough. There's potential he thought he could evade. However, the entire argument is based upon the fact you are claiming these are the only times he was able to do something to Juubito. However, that is because these are the only times he attempted to do anything to Juubito. Remind me of what Minato was capable of doing to either v1 or v2? That's right, nothing.

Yea, you tried your best. It's quite apparent your best is not good enough, with enervating grammar and flawed logic stacked with fallacies.
-Bogard claims he doesn't wank;
-Says Minato losing his arm and being stuck by TSB is a reaction feat, but a 'mindly' one, as if that is relevant. Lol
-Says Tobirama's reactions are beneath Minato's because he couldn't 'mindly react' to TSB formation with a clone. Many factors in this, like if TSB was actually used the second the explosion made contact and eradicated the clone, if Juubito used his TSB after the clone dispersed (since he was already in contact with it), or if Kishi simply didn't think of the fact Kage Bunshins relay information to the original.
-Claims v1 and v2 Juubito speed are differing based on the fact one has intelligence whereas the other doesn't.
-Claims Minato's reactions>Tobirama's based on mindly reacting to being annihilated and FTG'ing twice while Gai was moving, despite the fact a speeding kunai was faster than him speed wise (Genin react to kunai's, yet 8th gate Gai blitzes Jin Madara, Lol)
-Claims Minato has greater striking speed than Tobirama, despite the fact Tobirama tagged Juubito several times with explosive tags while he was moving at maximum speed (which raped Minato).

 

[Bogard]

Great now you're puting words in my mouth.

1. Show me where i said i don't wank Minato?
2. Show me where i said Minato has better reflexes than Tobirama because he used 2 FTG infront of Gai?
3. Show me where i even said Minato has better reflexes than Tobirama?
Etc
Etc

And good for you if you master english language perfectly. I don't need to know that, so you can keep it for you

Either way like i've said, you don't even know what you're talking about, so continuing any discussion with you is irrelevant

That said i'll leave my output on the matter(not for you though, so don't bother replying)

The mindless V1 Jubito, Brain V2 Jubito, Minato, Tobirama situation

1- The main difference between Tobirama and Minato during their confrontations against their respective versions of Jubito is that the latter tried to dodge Jubito's handspeed as fast as possible after noticing the counter-attack when the former took advantage of his edo body to sacrifice his life to tag his opponent. It was simply a difference in mindset, so Tobirama tagging Jubito there doesn't prove anything. On a side-note, if Tobirama wasn't edo, he would have died right away regardless of his intent/what he accomplished. If it was brain Jubito he would have died as well due to onmyoudon. If Minato decided to use Tobirama's tactic in sacrificing his body to tag the opponent, he would have been a no more as well. At least he partially dodged the attack

2- You can control your movements during a shunshin [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

]. I say this because it's as if some people think that when a shunshin user goes at full power, he can't react anymore at all. If Jubito had his brain(regardless of people who believe or not in the faster Jubito thing), he would have noticed Tobirama's handspeed earlier and could have prevented a tag from him at the absolute least by dodging his handspeed at the last second or at most by deflecting the hand movement while crushing Tobirama during his high speed movement and considering V2 Jubito's reaction/striking speed is above Tobirama's, it's the latter that would have been the likiest scenario(assuming brain Jubito actually cared about it, that's it)

3- Tobirama's handspeed isn't brain V2 Jubito level. Minato was capable to follow his hand movement. Regardless if you count the partial dodge as a reaction feat or not, he could follow. No reason that he couldn't follow Tobirama's(possessing slower hand movement speed)

4- During the explosion of the gudodama that occured after Jubito was teleported by Tobirama in another location, not only the clone of Tobirama didn't have time to accomplish an instant teleport, but he didn't even actually see/react to a brain V2 Jubito actually puting up a shield to protect himself from the blast

5- Tobirama actually observed mindless Jubito's speed, yet he was baffled by the fact brain V2 Jubito was fast enough to black that blast instantly. He was wondering about how to hit someone that fast despite the dude possessing his marking(so could appear on him anytime he wants), he was worried in getting killed the instant he teleports. Isn't it obvious brain V2 Jubito uses his speed better than a mindless one?

I can't believe i actually have to explain such a simple ABC logic -_-

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Tobirama's hand speed is faster than Obito's movement speed. Obito approached Tobirama with a Jinton-esk attack and Tobirama was able to decorate Obito with numerous explosives and a Hirashin mark all the while working around Obito's attack that passed right through him means his arms moved faster than Obito's movement.

So not only are his reactions leagues above Minato, his hands would potentially move too fast for Minato to cope with. Faster hand speed means Minato gets thumped into the ground.

 

[Bogard]

Tobirama's hand speed is faster than Obito's movement speed.

Great so now it has come to a Tobirama possessing faster movement speed than a Jubi jin

Obito approached Tobirama with a Jinton-esk attack and Tobirama was able to decorate Obito with numerous explosives and a Hirashin mark all the while working around Obito's attack that passed right through him means his arms moved faster than Obito's movement.

And it was a mindless Jubito. He likely didn't even care at all if Tobirama was "decorating" him with those markings you mention the moment he was crushing him. If he had his mind, he likely would have seen Tobirama's counter-attack during his shunshin and prevented himself for not that to happen. All what that passage prove is that Tobirama is fast enough to react to mindless V1 Jubito's shunshin. It doesn't prove however that he has faster reaction speed than that version of Jubito considering he wasn't even caring at all

 

[KingHashirama]

@Bogard, that chakra explanation scan is so out of date.. rofl. Using that to argue is pointless now.

Great so now it has come to a Tobirama possessing faster movement speed than a Jubi jin

But it doesn't matter.. just know he has faster striking speed, and more skills in taijutsu and kenjutsu than Minato. And furthermore better reflexes and is a more keen fighter than Minato.

 

[Bogard]

@Bogard, that chakra explanation scan is so out of date.. rofl. Using that to argue is pointless now.

I don't get what you mean by this

But it doesn't matter.. just know he has faster striking speed, and more skills in taijutsu and kenjutsu than Minato. And furthermore better reflexes and is a more keen fighter than Minato.

Well just understand that it's another difference in opinion between us. Not to mention you're completely out of topic

 

[~Nemesis~]

Tobirama takes this.

 

[Apêx1]

Great now you're puting words in my mouth.

1. Show me where i said i don't wank Minato?
2. Show me where i said Minato has better reflexes than Tobirama because he used 2 FTG infront of Gai?
3. Show me where i even said Minato has better reflexes than Tobirama?
Etc
Etc

And good for you if you master english language perfectly. I don't need to know that, so you can keep it for you

Either way like i've said, you don't even know what you're talking about, so continuing any discussion with you is irrelevant

Sure I am, Lol.
1. Confession accepted. Love blinds.
2. Nothing else to base Minato having better reaction speeds than Tobirama after from this, if not then I don't even want to know what you are basing it off of. I've seen you wank that misconception, so I assumed you had not been enlightened yet.
3. What was the point of arguing it if you don't believe it? Laughable.

When you tell others they fail to comprehend, you can't expect them not to point fingers at your grammar.
Irrelevant was used in the wrong context, continuing discussion with someone who wanks is futile as well.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Great so now it has come to a Tobirama possessing faster movement speed than a Jubi jin

And it was a mindless Jubito. He likely didn't even care at all if Tobirama was "decorating" him with those markings you mention the moment he was crushing him. If he had his mind, he likely would have seen Tobirama's counter-attack during his shunshin and prevented himself for not that to happen. All what that passage prove is that Tobirama is fast enough to react to mindless V1 Jubito's shunshin. It doesn't prove however that he has faster reaction speed than that version of Jubito considering he wasn't even caring at all

Did I say movement? Pretty sure I explicitly said 'hand speed'

All I'm heading is "likely" and "probably". Just lay man's for you trying to apply your own contradiction of the manga without explicitly saying 'I'm contradicting the manga'. I keep on hearing you toss the term "mindless" around quite frequently. It's quite the contrary, the manga has even stated that it's "two minds" (Juubi and Obito) not just one or lack thereof. Whoever was in control was after the Bijuu, Tobirama was in the way, therefore he had to go. He tried to do so and Tobirama plastered him in explosives.


You really don't appreciate how fast Tobirama's hands must've been moving in order to counter Obito in this state; in order for Tobirama to have laid a finger on Obito he would've had to have been faster than Obito, even more so that he had those atomising constructs in his hands, and Tobirama completely outdid him in that department. Juubi Obito has never canonically let an opponent hit him because he "wasn't even caring at all", so don't even try to argue that. Hiruzen was throwing what was effectively pebbles at Obito and Obito put him down hard, and there was no reaction from Hiruzen and there was no reaction from Naruto and sasuke either.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Did I say movement? Pretty sure I explicitly said 'hand speed'

All I'm heading is "likely" and "probably". Just lay man's for you trying to apply your own contradiction of the manga without explicitly saying 'I'm contradicting the manga'. I keep on hearing you toss the term "mindless" around quite frequently. It's quite the contrary, the manga has even stated that it's "two minds" (Juubi and Obito) not just one or lack thereof. Whoever was in control was after the Bijuu, Tobirama was in the way, therefore he had to go. He tried to do so and Tobirama plastered him in explosives.


You really don't appreciate how fast Tobirama's hands must've been moving in order to counter Obito in this state; in order for Tobirama to have laid a finger on Obito he would've had to have been faster than Obito, even more so that he had those atomising constructs in his hands, and Tobirama completely outdid him in that department. Juubi Obito has never canonically let an opponent hit him because he "wasn't even caring at all", so don't even try to argue that. Hiruzen was throwing what was effectively pebbles at Obito and Obito put him down hard, and there was no reaction from Hiruzen and there was no reaction from Naruto and sasuke either.

*hearing .

 

[Bogard]

Did I say movement? Pretty sure I explicitly said 'hand speed'

All I'm heading is "likely" and "probably". Just lay man's for you trying to apply your own contradiction of the manga without explicitly saying 'I'm contradicting the manga'. I keep on hearing you toss the term "mindless" around quite frequently. It's quite the contrary, the manga has even stated that it's "two minds" (Juubi and Obito) not just one or lack thereof. Whoever was in control was after the Bijuu, Tobirama was in the way, therefore he had to go. He tried to do so and Tobirama plastered him in explosives.


You really don't appreciate how fast Tobirama's hands must've been moving in order to counter Obito in this state; in order for Tobirama to have laid a finger on Obito he would've had to have been faster than Obito, even more so that he had those atomising constructs in his hands, and Tobirama completely outdid him in that department. Juubi Obito has never canonically let an opponent hit him because he "wasn't even caring at all", so don't even try to argue that. Hiruzen was throwing what was effectively pebbles at Obito and Obito put him down hard, and there was no reaction from Hiruzen and there was no reaction from Naruto and sasuke either.

I always argue with probability in a situation not completely sure. Hell at times i still use probabilities even infront of facts i'm 99% of chance to be the case(like this one), but as long it's not 100% i would still use the words "likely" or "probably". Yourself used a "must've been moving" because you don't know with exact certitude what exactly happened during that moment

And yes Jubito "wasn't caring". It was fighting with animal instincts rather than actual brain and was even having control problems between Obito and him. We talk about the same Jubito who was tagged by Hashirama's long range gates when brain Jubito was easily swimming through EMS Sasuke+BSM Naruto's attacks, we talk about the Jubito who was hiting himself with gudodamas, that thing was only fighting via animal instincts, with a complete lack of brain, not even knowing its own name, you can't deny that

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

used a "must've been moving" because you don't know with exact certitude what exactly happened during that moment

Lol yes I do. He must've, because it'd of been physically impossible otherwise for him to do what he did.

And yes Jubito "wasn't caring". It was fighting with animal instincts rather than actual brain and was even having control problems between Obito and him. We talk about the same Jubito who was tagged by Hashirama's long range gates when brain Jubito was easily swimming through EMS Sasuke+BSM Naruto's attacks, we talk about the Jubito who was hiting himself with gudodamas, that thing was only fighting via animal instincts, with a complete lack of brain, not even knowing its own name, you can't deny that

Seemed to care that Hiruzen was throwing stones at him - who he blitzed - who was keeping up with Tobirama.

The gates were used the moment he was awoken, and he didn't see them coming. He hit himself with Guddo Dama because the Juubi and Obito were fighting for control, wasn't a thing when he attacked Tobirama, otherwise he'd've attacked himself.


Memory isn't a requirement of a brain to work, you need to scratch up on your biology.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

And it's two minds, not mindless.

 

[ShinjuMadara]

SM is irrelavent. Tobirama takes this, besides rasengan Minato didn't have much. Tobirama is a mizukage level water master. Minato gets wrecked.

 

[WalksInShadows]

summoning jutsu or not, Minato still murks. Tobirama's practically needs FTG to match what Minato can do w/o it. Minato won't need SM at all for this.

 

[ARGUS]

its funny to see minato fanboys using a jutsu thats not even shown or has no hype or information whatsoever,