Minato vs Tobirama *No FTG*

[Apêx1]

^He couldn't follow what was happening if he didn't notice being stuck by TSB. Either way, not a reaction feat.

 

[Bogard]

^He couldn't follow what was happening if he didn't notice being stuck by TSB. Either way, not a reaction feat.

It's a reaction feat. If he couldn't follow, he wouldn't even have managed to dodge in the first place(and would have died in the process). We clearly see on the page in question Jubito's arm moving, then Minato says "shit" because although he saw his movement speed, he knew he couldn't dodge it in time. Jubito puting a gudodama on Minato was only an after effect of the hit in question only that Minato didn't expected him to do that.

 

[KidGamer65]

Minato did react to V2 Jubito(mindly react at least considering he could follow his hand movement). He just couldn't completely dodge in time.
I think you're confusing stamina with chakra. Chakra isn't always present in ninja bodies. What is present is stamina. How do you think taijutsu usable(incapable to build up chakra like Lee) do?

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It's by building part of your physical+spiritual energy that you build up the chakra necessary for battles

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So when someone build up his chakra, he isn't using his entire stamina+spiritual energy at all, only part of it. It's for that reason i said it depends on the quantity of physical(stamina)+spiritual energy that a ninja uses. If he takes only a small amount, in case of a SM user, only a small amount of natural energy is needed to build up the sennin chakra as well

Ok, I understand the explanation, but how do people absorb chakra directly from people's bodies, if chakra isn't always present? Yoroi was absorbing Sasuke's chakra straight from his body, but according to your example, he shouldn't have chakra present in his body as he wasn't using Ninjutsu or any form at all.

PS: Brain V2 Jubito only removed one of Minato's arm. He mindly reacted to him. Only couldn't completely dodge. Considering you think Tobirama has so much better reactions than Minato, are you suggesting Tobirama moves faster than Brain V2 Jubito?

He didn't react in time as he still lost his arm, so that isn't a reaction feat, and reactions doesn't translate to movement speed.

Because i'd like to point out the fact that when his clone actually made an appearance in the chapter "you're the main stars", despite being a hiraishin user couldn't escape the explosive radius of Jubito's gudodama in time after the second hiraishin(when it only requires an instant teleport) when on the other side Brain V2 Jubito had time to put up a shield to protect himself at the last second.

Didn't=/=Couldn't. He already stated that he used a clone to warp Juubito there, he had no reason to let it escape.

Not only that, but Tobirama didn't even notice Brain V2 Jubito actually managed to put up a defense until he saw him coming back despite the fact that when a clone is destroyed, the information come back to the original. That means Brain V2 Jubito put up a defense faster than Tobirama's clone(and thus the original) could even mindly see/react

Or it means that the explosion killed Tobirama's clone (Who was holding the ball, and then right before it hit Juubito, he managed to make his shield).

It's funny how you people seriously want to argue concerning the difference between V1 mindless Jubito and V2 Brain Jubito when it has already been established that he lacked control. With less control, you can't use your powers as efficiently, not only that. Without a brain, you don't even see/care about your opponents counter-attacks. It's as if you think Kishi purposedly showed a new transformation just for the show.

Using them effectively doesn't meant that they are weaker. Using his speed effectively is what he did against Naruto, Sasuke, Minato and Tobirama, using it wildly is what he did against Tobirama. Its funny how you guys keep on insisting that there is a speed difference between V1 and V2 Juubito, even though there is literally nothing that supports this conclusion. Nothing at all. Your argumentation in this post only digs you deeper into the hole as being in control of your powers or not doesn't make them weaker or stronger, the only thing that changes is how you use it.

And lol @ the bold: V2 Juubito is superior in many other ways that we have acknowledged, speed is the only one no one is going to agree with since there is nothing that implies his speed increased. How does that translate to us believing the new form was for show?

But oh well. What can i say? I guess it's your opinion and i can't change that. I'd just finish with this though. Considering you believe V1 Jubito is no different than V2 Jubito and that Kishi just showed a drastical difference and new transformation for the show, are you suggesting that SM Madara has better reactions than V2 Jubito considering the same Tobirama couldn't tag him despite sneak attacking him?

Strawman is strong with your post. Don't take my words out of context. Juubito being no faster doesn't translate to him being no different. I'm just waiting for evidence that actually proves your point. Its even my opinion, its fact.

No, because Juubito rushed towards Tobirama, and in response Tobirama tagged him. SM Madara didn't rush toward Tobirama, allowing him to dodge when Tobirama attacked, due to his reaction speed. They aren't even the same thing. Its not like Tobirama moved so fast that Juubito couldn't react or evade his tag, because that isn't what happened, Juubito ran into Tobirama.

 

[Apêx1]

It's a reaction feat. If he couldn't follow, he wouldn't even have managed to dodge in the first place(and would have died in the process). We clearly see on the page in question Jubito's arm moving, then Minato says "shit" because although he saw his movement speed, he knew he couldn't dodge it in time. Jubito puting a gudodama on Minato was only an after effect of the hit in question only that Minato didn't expected him to do that.

And that makes it a reaction feat? So because he was able to see a stationary Juubito's arm move, he is granted a reaction feat? Don't see the greatness of it, when Tobirama saw Juubito move and tagged him along with it several times. All Minato did was perceive arm movement that was barely emphasised upon, since it's his movement speed that was emphasised, and teleport after 1. Losing an arm. 2. Getting stuck by TSB. If he teleported away when he said shit=reaction feat. If he got caught and stuck after he said shit=/=reaction feat.
Minato teleported as soon as he could, unless you are willing to claim he is retarded, even though Minato is on the highly intelligent side. He teleported as soon as he could, yet by the time he teleported, he was stuck by TSB, despite the fact he said 'shit' when perceiving Juubito's arm movement.

 

[Bogard]

Ok, I understand the explanation, but how do people absorb chakra directly from people's bodies, if chakra isn't always present? Yoroi was absorbing Sasuke's chakra straight from his body, but according to your example, he shouldn't have chakra present in his body as he wasn't using Ninjutsu or any form at all.

Well i don't remember exactly the curse of events, but what makes you so sure Sasuke didn't have chakra inside his body. As far as i remember the only thing that was restricted to him was the use of Sharingan. I don't think he didn't build up chakra during that event. Either way, it's also possible that yoroi's technique simply absorbed Sasuke's stamina(it's a substance that runs out as well as chakra). If Yoroi's technique can absorb chakra which is an addition from stamina+spiritual energy, i see no reason why he couldn't absorb an element of the chakra

He didn't react in time as he still lost his arm, so that isn't a reaction feat, and reactions doesn't translate to movement speed.

I said mindly react. Do you know the definition of it? For example, Kisame mindly reacted to 6gated Gai's kick, but couldn't dodge in time. Minato mindly reacted to V2 Jubito's arm speed but could only partially dodge it. It's the same thing. Either way, you didn't even answer my question. I was asking if you suggest Tobirama's arm speed is faster than V2 Jubito's

Didn't=/=Couldn't. He already stated that he used a clone to warp Juubito there, he had no reason to let it escape.

It's still of a better use to have your clone around helping in battle. Though you do have a point that he wasn't forced to

Or it means that the explosion killed Tobirama's clone (Who was holding the ball, and then right before it hit Juubito, he managed to make his shield).

Considering the clone was fine by the time to execute 2 teleportations while holding the ball, i don't think holding it destroys stuffs. It destroys only when it explodes, so i disagree

Using them effectively doesn't meant that they are weaker. Using his speed effectively is what he did against Naruto, Sasuke, Minato and Tobirama, using it wildly is what he did against Tobirama. Its funny how you guys keep on insisting that there is a speed difference between V1 and V2 Juubito, even though there is literally nothing that supports this conclusion. Nothing at all. Your argumentation in this post only digs you deeper into the hole as being in control of your powers or not doesn't make them weaker or stronger, the only thing that changes is how you use it.

I already gave plenty of examples. Tobirama has less chakra than Hashirama, but he controls the boost of shunshin better, Minato even more. Naruto controls the boost of Kyubi's chakra better than Kyubi himself making him faster. With control you can achieve everything better, chakra control, movement speed, reactions, everything. And i'm not insisting at all when i'm not even trying to convince at this point. For me it's obviously the case because Kishi's implication was rather clear. For you it's not the case, so i don't think we'll ever agree on this

And lol @ the bold: V2 Juubito is superior in many other ways that we have acknowledged, speed is the only one no one is going to agree with since there is nothing that implies his speed increased. How does that translate to us believing the new form was for show?

Strawman is strong with your post. Don't take my words out of context. Juubito being no faster doesn't translate to him being no different. I'm just waiting for evidence that actually proves your point. Its even my opinion, its fact.

Tobirama saw V1 Jubito moving like you said, yet he was surprised V2 Jubito was fast enough to put up a shield. What does it say to you?

No, because Juubito rushed towards Tobirama, and in response Tobirama tagged him. SM Madara didn't rush toward Tobirama, allowing him to dodge when Tobirama attacked, due to his reaction speed. They aren't even the same thing. Its not like Tobirama moved so fast that Juubito couldn't react or evade his tag, because that isn't what happened, Juubito ran into Tobirama.

Both happened in close quarter combat, a place where only reaction speed counts. It doesn't matter if one was rushing or not. The fact remain his handspeed wasn't great enough to tag a stationary SM Madara despite sneak attacking him

And that makes it a reaction feat? So because he was able to see a stationary Juubito's arm move, he is granted a reaction feat? Don't see the greatness of it, when Tobirama saw Juubito move and tagged him along with it several times. All Minato did was perceive arm movement that was barely emphasised upon, since it's his movement speed that was emphasised, and teleport after 1. Losing an arm. 2. Getting stuck by TSB. If he teleported away when he said shit=reaction feat. If he got caught and stuck after he said shit=/=reaction feat.
Minato teleported as soon as he could, unless you are willing to claim he is retarded, even though Minato is on the highly intelligent side. He teleported as soon as he could, yet by the time he teleported, he was stuck by TSB, despite the fact he said 'shit' when perceiving Juubito's arm movement.

I don't think we see the same thing, so i think i'd just take a counter-example

Tobirama couldn't notice a stationary V2 Jubito put up a shield fast enough to protect himself from the explosion of his gudodama despite his clone being inch away from him and that after destruction information comes back to the original. All what Tobirama did is not perceiving V2 Jubito's movement speed at all and not even managing a teleportation despite being a hiraishin user

 

[Apêx1]

Tobirama couldn't notice a stationary V2 Jubito put up a shield fast enough to protect himself from the explosion of his gudodama despite his clone being inch away from him and that after destruction information comes back to the original. All what Tobirama did is not perceiving V2 Jubito's movement speed at all and not even managing a teleportation despite being a hiraishin user

I don't know which scenario you are talking about or simply don't believe that it is somehow arguable, so I'll assume you are talking about something else. Scans of it please, as I have no idea what you are saying, grammar check the whole thing you wrote.

 

[Bogard]

I don't know which scenario you are talking about or simply don't believe that it is somehow arguable, so I'll assume you are talking about something else. Scans of it please, as I have no idea what you are saying, grammar check the whole thing you wrote.

Sorry for a non-nativ english speaker like myself to make grammar errors

Either way, i was talking about this

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Tobirama didn't even notice Brain V2 Jubito actually managed to put up a defense until he saw him coming back despite the fact that when a clone is destroyed, the information come back to the original. That means Brain V2 Jubito put up a defense faster than Tobirama's clone(and thus the original) could even mindly see/react

I don't even know if you people know what you're talking about. Saying mindless V1 Jubito and Brain V2 Jubito are the same in terms of speed/reaction/timing is ludicrous. Just the simple fact of having a brain allow you to notify attacks and counter them sooner than a brainless one. Just the fact of having a brain allows you to make use of your speed better. Minato mindly reacted to Brain V2 Jubito. So saying Tobirama has better reactions and would easily tag Minato in CQC also means you think Tobirama has better striking/reaction speed than brain V2 Jubito, something that makes no sense.

The Tobirama with better striking/reaction speed than brain V2 Jubito according to you couldn't even notice Jubito had time to block the explosive blast of the gudodama despite his clone being inches infront of him at the time.

Brain V2 Jubito has his marking, so he could appear on him anytime he wants, yet he suggested that just hiting him is a problem

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Brain V2 Jubito has his marking, so he can appear on him anytime he wants, yet he feared that if he teleported again, Jubito will annihilate him

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I mean isn't the portrayal clear enough that Brain V2 Jubito has better reflexes/striking speed than Tobirama?

The fact the only time where he actually managed to tag Jubito is either when he was brain-dead or when he was distracted should tell you something:

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I see no reason why Minato couldn't react to Tobirama in close range battle if he could follow brain V2 Jubito's hand speed. Tobirama on the other side couldn't though(see above)

 

[Benjamin King]

We have to remember that V2 granted Obito a more complete cloak than V1 did. Obviously he would have a boost in speed and power overall. Either way, I still believe Tobirama showed the better reactions than Minato. Tobirama tagged Juubito 5 times:

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Minato couldn't believe how fast V1 Juubito was:

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[Apêx1]

Sorry for a non-nativ english speaker like myself to make grammar errors

Either way, i was talking about this

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Tobirama didn't even notice Brain V2 Jubito actually managed to put up a defense until he saw him coming back despite the fact that when a clone is destroyed, the information come back to the original. That means Brain V2 Jubito put up a defense faster than Tobirama's clone(and thus the original) could even mindly see/react

I don't even know if you people know what you're talking about. Saying mindless V1 Jubito and Brain V2 Jubito are the same in terms of speed/reaction/timing is ludicrous. Just the simple fact of having a brain allow you to notify attacks and counter them sooner than a brainless one. Just the fact of having a brain allows you to make use of your speed better. Minato mindly reacted to Brain V2 Jubito. So saying Tobirama has better reactions and would easily tag Minato in CQC also means you think Tobirama has better striking/reaction speed than brain V2 Jubito, something that makes no sense.

The Tobirama with better striking/reaction speed than brain V2 Jubito according to you couldn't even notice Jubito had time to block the explosive blast of the gudodama despite his clone being inches infront of him at the time.

Brain V2 Jubito has his marking, so he could appear on him anytime he wants, yet he suggested that just hiting him is a problem

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Brain V2 Jubito has his marking, so he can appear on him anytime he wants, yet he feared that if he teleported again, Jubito will annihilate him

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I mean isn't the portrayal clear enough that Brain V2 Jubito has better reflexes/striking speed than Tobirama?

The fact the only time where he actually managed to tag Jubito is either when he was brain-dead or when he was distracted should tell you something:

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I see no reason why Minato couldn't react to Tobirama in close range battle if he could follow brain V2 Jubito's hand speed. Tobirama on the other side couldn't though(see above)

Your entire premise is nonsense. Where was it implied that Juubito blocked the explosion of the Gudo dama with his own Gudo dama prior to Tobirama's clone's death? Against Enton FRS, he used Gudo Dama after he was under Enton's effects [

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], how do you know he didn't use Gudo Dama after the clone was dead? You see.. You are basing your entire premise on a baseless assumption, and are attempting to achieve an accurate or even reliable conclusion from it.
1. Nothing implies Juubito didn't use Gudo Dama later on.
2. Nothing implies Tobirama's clone didn't die prior to seeing what happened to Juubito, since in an explosion, it's impossible to see.
3. You imply Tobirama's clone was there when Juubito used Gudo Dama, despite the fact that at that point, he was either dead or blinded by the explosion.

@bold Incorrect and False analogy.
1. Having intelligence doesn't make you faster than you are without intelligence. Based off of nothing, and makes no sense.
2. False Analogy; No one is claiming Tobirama has better striking speed than Juubito, people, myself included, are claiming Tobirama can set explosive tags on someone who is rushing towards him, by anticipating it and acting accordingly. Juubito had nothing to anticipate, and frankly didn't care. But not caring doesn't mean he wasn't running at full speed with intent to kill.

He said it will be hard to hit him, as it always was, Tobirama simply did well hence him being deemed one of the fastest reaction speeds in NV. Anyways, he still did manage to have Naruto hit Juubito [

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], and could've done so himself had he known of a way to damage Juubito without permanently losing an arm while at it. So no, the Enton FRS and v1 Juubito are not the only occasions in which he was hit, and in the Naruto occasion, by someone with slower striking speed mind you, further emphasising Minato's reaction speeds being overrated.

So despite Juubito's striking speed being greater than Tobirama's in a 1v1, Tobirama still managed to tag Juubito several times when Juubito simply needed to tag Tobirama once. I am not saying he has faster striking speed, but by the time it takes Juubito to cover 1 meter of space (with insane speed at that), Tobirama could tag Juubito several times. Greater than anything Minato has ever done. Minato being capable of mindly reacting to Tobirama's striking speed doesn't imply he will dodge or counter every time, because as your own scans prove, mindly reacting=/=safely reacting.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

To be fair, Minato seemed to be emotionally unstable during the fight against Juubito IIRC. That would hamper his fighting abilities quite a bit. Regardless he had the Kyuubi inside him and was mostly useful due to being able to connect chakra with others allowing to FTG multiple people.

I'm not going to accept that as an argument, one because a Shinobi is supposed to keep a level head no matter what (paraphrased from Kakashi numerous times.) and two, he was absolutely fine when his wife and son were in danger - far more emotionally destabilizing than some kid coming back from the dead that he hardly knew (realistically)

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

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This ends the fight when all's said and done

Can't be touched can't be stopped can't be moved can't be rocked we hot

 

[Gold Lightning]

I'm not going to accept that as an argument, one because a Shinobi is supposed to keep a level head no matter what (paraphrased from Kakashi numerous times.) and two, he was absolutely fine when his wife and son were in danger - far more emotionally destabilizing than some kid coming back from the dead that he hardly knew (realistically)

Kakashi went through the same thing when Obito was unmasked. He no longer had the will to fight and he spared Obito a couple of times, despite having the chance to kill him. Or are you going to ignore that? It wasn't until Naruto used his talk no jutsu, that Kakashi started fighting properly again. So despite you using Kakashi's paraphrasing, you fail to mention that Kakashi became an emotional wreck also in this war.

Minato naturally went through the same thing, then Naruto and dark Kurama used their talk no jutsu and he began to fight again. When Obito attacked the leaf, minato had no clue who the enemy was. He just knew that his wife son and village needed to be saved, he didn't care about anything else.

And your bottom post is stupid, because that's still FTG.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Couldn't really be bothered reading what you posted, Kakashi is more understandable considering Obito actually had a dramatic affect on Kakashi's personality as he changed when he died, as well as feeling guilty that he broke his promise. Minato had no such obligation.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

This is what Tobirama reacting to Obito means in this fight.

Ali is 'Rama.

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[Hasisas]

Tobirama wins mid diff.

 

[RedShadow]

Minato coz I haven't seen much about Tobirama.

But it'll be like High Diff because Tobirama is adept in a lot of Chakra Natures.

 

[Bogard]

Minato didn't even pull off his rasen senkou chourinbu kousanshiki during his assault on Jubito despite initially saying he will use it to open a path for Naruto and Sasuke. He instead used a kunai(that broke). I think it happened because he was so emotionally struggling/unstable that he didn't even do what he initially intended to do(he was having fbs of Obito/regretting the situation before the clash).

Your entire premise is nonsense. Where was it implied that Juubito blocked the explosion of the Gudo dama with his own Gudo dama prior to Tobirama's clone's death? Against Enton FRS, he used Gudo Dama after he was under Enton's effects [

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], how do you know he didn't use Gudo Dama after the clone was dead? You see.. You are basing your entire premise on a baseless assumption, and are attempting to achieve an accurate or even reliable conclusion from it.
1. Nothing implies Juubito didn't use Gudo Dama later on.
2. Nothing implies Tobirama's clone didn't die prior to seeing what happened to Juubito, since in an explosion, it's impossible to see.
3. You imply Tobirama's clone was there when Juubito used Gudo Dama, despite the fact that at that point, he was either dead or blinded by the explosion.

@bold Incorrect and False analogy.
1. Having intelligence doesn't make you faster than you are without intelligence. Based off of nothing, and makes no sense.
2. False Analogy; No one is claiming Tobirama has better striking speed than Juubito, people, myself included, are claiming Tobirama can set explosive tags on someone who is rushing towards him, by anticipating it and acting accordingly. Juubito had nothing to anticipate, and frankly didn't care. But not caring doesn't mean he wasn't running at full speed with intent to kill.

He said it will be hard to hit him, as it always was, Tobirama simply did well hence him being deemed one of the fastest reaction speeds in NV. Anyways, he still did manage to have Naruto hit Juubito [

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], and could've done so himself had he known of a way to damage Juubito without permanently losing an arm while at it. So no, the Enton FRS and v1 Juubito are not the only occasions in which he was hit, and in the Naruto occasion, by someone with slower striking speed mind you, further emphasising Minato's reaction speeds being overrated.

So despite Juubito's striking speed being greater than Tobirama's in a 1v1, Tobirama still managed to tag Juubito several times when Juubito simply needed to tag Tobirama once. I am not saying he has faster striking speed, but by the time it takes Juubito to cover 1 meter of space (with insane speed at that), Tobirama could tag Juubito several times. Greater than anything Minato has ever done. Minato being capable of mindly reacting to Tobirama's striking speed doesn't imply he will dodge or counter every time, because as your own scans prove, mindly reacting=/=safely reacting.

He couldn't have blocked it after the gudodama exploded because this is what happens when it explodes:

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He would have appeared severely damaged if he blocked it after. Conclusion: He blocked it before

There is nothing wrong in my premise. I presented a simple thing that you just apparently aren't smart enough to understand

The fact you now uses SM Naruto as an example to say he has better reflexes than Minato just shows how out of touch you are concerning those arguments, not even understanding that during the passage in question, Jubito was simply not caring at all, thinking he can't be hurt by their attacks. Not to mention that later on he seemed to be surprised he couldn't phase, so maybe he was trying to phase through the attack instead

Either way i think i've tried my best to explain my points and the way it goes i feel like i'm arguing against a wall, so i can't be bothered continuing, so you can believe what you want

 

[Penguin]

The "rasen senkou chourinbu kousanshiki" Minato was talking about may or may not have worked. Nothing was set in stone.

 

[Minato namikaze123]

Minato high deff
i guess rasengan makes it easier to bust him

 

[AizenSosuke]

Minato wins because BM.