MAN OF SIN
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I think he is just naive. The Sage give people chakra knowing what it did to his mother...
[Discussion] An important trait of Hagoromo's personality
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but the "credible" evidence you chose to use is deductive reasoning based off of facial expressions and how you think the character should react?
How can you call the sage indifferent when in the same chapter he clearly show concern for the beasts when he tells them they can all meet within Naruto, and gives Kurama the job of protecting that haven ie Naruto?
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Reboryushon
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He reacts like a paternal figure surprised with his son prowess.
"..he managed it with just a glance.."
"..he managed it with just a glance.."
ᖇ α z m α η
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Hagoromo believed Naruto and Sasuke will co-operate, its the reason he gave them a portion of his powers [Now its their turn to create the world according to their beliefs, there is no point in interrupting]
Maybe he also knows that Naruto will save the tailed beasts either way [Since that's his ninja way] .
Maybe he also knows that Naruto will save the tailed beasts either way [Since that's his ninja way] .
That might be the best answer so far.
No it's not only facial expressions, it's his whole way of acting, the way he doesn't speak his mind clearly, the way he kept Hamura completely out of the story, his current behavior towards the beasts, I mean the way he was like "Big deal" when they were caught (I'm not talking about exaggerations but for someone who was known for loving, such indifference was over the top) and things such as the fact that when he first spoke to Naruto he didn't say clearly that Kaguya herself was part of the Juubi and then in the recent chapter, it was made clear that he knew everything. Not only that but supposedly his role had ended at handing them his powers, yet we saw that he can appear in real world, using his great powers, only to run out of juice when Sasuke conveniently starts his revolution.
Towards Sasuke sure, but he was supposed to a paternal figure, in some way, towards the beasts and to their recapture he was indifferent.
Still, it's just, I don't know too unhumane as a reaction, not in a sense of being rutheless but I guess that he has really transended to a god.
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Immortal Sasuke
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He fears Sasuke. It's too convenient that he's about to "disappear shortly", that's code for "Sasuke has surpassed me, I must make haste back to the pure world before he solos me too."
Notice how Hagoromo (or the tailed beasts) couldn't read Sasuke's intentions before he neg-diffed the bijuu. This is simply because Sasuke is on a higher plane than not only the bijuus now, but Hagoromo himself. Sasuke has surpassed God, he is the ultimate test, the ultimate obstacle for Naruto overcome. Stronger than all who came before him.
Notice how Hagoromo (or the tailed beasts) couldn't read Sasuke's intentions before he neg-diffed the bijuu. This is simply because Sasuke is on a higher plane than not only the bijuus now, but Hagoromo himself. Sasuke has surpassed God, he is the ultimate test, the ultimate obstacle for Naruto overcome. Stronger than all who came before him.
You say it's not just facial expressions then right after say hes like "big deal" when the beast were captured. HOW did you come to that conclusion? He certainly didn't say it. Are you saying it's implied he doesn't care because he didn't say he did? Do you really feel that sort of reasoning is "credible evidence"?
Second point, he didn't know Kaguya was the Juubi. He learned about it the same time Naruto and Sasuke did. If you'd like to show me were it was "made clear" he knew all along i'd love to see this "credible evidence".
Third point, he didn't appear in the world due to his great power, but the power of Ashura, Indria, and Kurama activating when Hashirama touched Madara's severed half.
Fourth point, he was out of juice when he appeared, he used the dead kages power to summon everyone back. The only thing this is convenient for is the plot. If he was evil like you think, there is absolutely no reason to feign helplessness at this point.
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he gave his powers to them and told them its their choice how they want things to go. he can only observe. he probably thinks naruto will win as ashura always seems to. hes more concerned with the possibility of a different outcome for them to get along.
Reboryushon
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Sure! We have yet to see the full dialogue between him and Sasuke when they met maybe that will help to understand why he acts like this.
As I said it's not just facial expressions, what you said does not counter what I said since I implied that there is a combination of more than one factors. Yes, that conclusion was mine alone and just as I said it's not the only that triggered my attention, even if it's not the case.
Your second point is just your interpretation as well. You may say that Hagoromo learned it at that exact moment but let me pose you the same question: how did you come to that conclusion? As far I'm concerned, all I see is an old man who doesn't get suprised by anything. The lack of suprise can also mean knowledge. Besides, if Hagoromo was "alive" this whole time, it would be really suprising to learn something as big as that just now. How can you tell that he didn't aqcuire that knowledge in the past? Can you disprove it? Ofc not, it's only a hypothesis.
3rd point: I did not suggest that he appeared in the real world due to his great power and I do know that there was a perfectly logical explanation for that. Still what interests me is the fact that he actually reappeared with quite some power, enough to summon back all the kages and then all of them together the beasts and the team. You could say that he somehow got power from Madara's jin body but whatever. All this power however suggests powerful chakra and the way he was at a rush when he was explaining things at Naruto, leaving btw Hamura out, out of fear running out of chakra, comes in contrast to what he did lately.
4th. So you suggest that the kages was something that could be done so easily while some chapters ago he was such a rush in order to tell everything before his chakra runs out? Plot is one way to look at it. As for the no reason part, I have a theory: he wants first to see the results of these successors. All this time he was only trusting Ashura's, now both of them, the results seem to be the same. If that's the case he might want to see Indra's successor winning and see his results, and if thsi third and last scenario fail, he might want to become active again, don't ask me how, he's the sage, by claiming the power of both of his sons and rule the world in his own way.
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For the record, I never once said it was only facial expressions, so I understand your thinking doesn't come from just that. The point is you continue to use it as your "credible evidence" right after saying you don't use facial expressions alone. I find that contradictory, even if it's just one point of several.
No, it's not an interpretation. It's what happened in the story. Hagoromo said he sealed the Juubi, not kaguya. Later BZ stated he didn't know in reality he sealed Kaguya when he sealed the Juubi. Previously we were made aware Hag is able to see what goes on in the lives of Naruto and Sasuke. After the battle, he congratulates Kakashi on his leadership further proving he saw the fight. As you can see my conclusion is based on actual events that happened in the manga, not how I think a certain character felt at a particular moment or meant when they said a certain line.
Pretty sure you did, whether you mean to or not...
Whatever, not important.
You're drawing, again, a conclusion with no "credible evidence". What in the manga indicates it takes a lot of power to do what he did? Clearly since he was summoned into the world, he is now a link between the pure and impure worlds. How do you know he didn't borrow the Edo Kage's power? Alternately, we've also seen Edo Tensai that summons a spirit into a living body. Was this jutsu ever stated to need large amounts of power to preform? In fact. I believe it was the opposite.
Also he didn't leave Hamura out, if he did, we wouldn't have known about him until Kaguya appeared. Just because he didn't give Hamura's life story doesn't mean he's hiding anything, just that it's not relevant to the struggle between his children. It has a lot more to do with Kishi's writing than Hagoromo's intentions. After all, Naruto or Sasuke didn't ask about Hamura either. So until he's asked and then avoids the question or talks around it some way, you can't say he's hiding it.
I didn't suggest that summoning the kages was easy until this post, but okay. Even then I'm not saying it was easy, just saying it didn't take a lot chakra specifically to do it.
Your theory flies in the face of Hagoromo's words in this past chapter, nor does it provide a reason for him to feign helplessness. I would think if he wanted Indria to win then he would do something to empower Sasuke or weaken Naruto. However, he's still watching what happens after giving both Ashura and Indria power. He's just standing by and baring witness now to see the conclusion of giving them both power. Maybe that's why you feel he doesn't care.
Finally I just want point out I'm not saying that my conclusions are inherently better than yours or even that my evidence is more credible, even though I believe they are. I just take objection to you inferring I'm not using "credible evidence", when clearly you aren't either.
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1st point: Well, when you countered mine, you specifically talked about how I came to such conclusion and you were referring to my "Big deal" quote which was based on a facial expression, and so I thought that your argument was centered around this exact thing.
2nd point: I guess it's very logical what you said and I would have agreed if it wasn't for not knowing the limits of Hagoromo's capability to learn what happens in the real world. If, when he's even dead, can have such knowledge, which at this point, I'll suggest it's limitless, like a stalker 24/7 from a comical side of view, then how can we know that he didn't have the same capability when he was alive? I mean it would simply be too strange for him to awaken such ability in his death. What I mean is, if he can know what goes on in reality while he's dead, how can you tell that he didn't have the same ability as an alive person and thus how can you disprove the chance of him knowing everything that was happening around him in his days via this exact ability? Such as BZ's plan. You might say then why he didn't say from the beginning that Juubi was partly his mother, but if we accept, hypothetically, the chance of him being evil, then he could hide things for his profit.
3rd point: I'll agree, comparing what he did to Edo tensei makes perfect sense, my mistake.
4th point: About Hamura he just said the absolutely necessary which was his collaboration to the fight. Now I did not expect it to be a chit- chat but can you honestly believe that Hamura holds no importance when it's preety evident that he's the ancestor of Hyuuga and more importantly his contribution in Hagoromo getting both of the seals? Don't forget that when Kaguya remembered both of her sons, Hagoromo had one seal and Hamura the other and that's how they were depicted even in collaborative Chibaku tensei meaning Hamura did not give his seal for Kaguya's sealing since he also took part in the ritual. So even the fact that later Hagoromo aqcuired both of the seals, with whatever method he used, it's quite important on its own since by doing so he was able to pass it down to Naruto and Sasuke so that they can redo it.
5th point: Well, since he gave them this time equal powers, it would make sense to want to see a fair match of ideology. What I'm saying is that: he saw what happened when Ashura> Indra, he will see what will happen when Ashura= Indra, and based on the success or the failure of the latter, he will want to see Ashura< Indra and if that fails as well, then he will claim his powers back.
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Naruto would have never forgiven the Sage if he stopped Sasuke instead of him or if he interfered in any way.
Sage at full power would stomp both of them at the same time.
He was running out of time as other said.
He is dead and and he knows him interfering would only keep cycle of hate going.
He may show a bit of sadness but in his hard facial features created by Unstoppable hate, pain he get used to that actions.
Sage at full power would stomp both of them at the same time.
He was running out of time as other said.
He is dead and and he knows him interfering would only keep cycle of hate going.
He may show a bit of sadness but in his hard facial features created by Unstoppable hate, pain he get used to that actions.
Fair enough.
All that's been shown is he's able to see Ashura, Indria's, and their transmigrates paths, he never indicated omniscience. He never said he knew what was going on in their lives 24/7 either. It makes sense he gained this ability after death since he's in the pure world and can watch over people through chakra that connects them. However there is proof that he was watching the battle. A) He knew they were in another dimension and would need to be summoned back. B) He knew Kakashi leadership ensured the victory.
If you're conclusion requires you to have a biased opinion before viewing the evidence, then it's not a very good conclusion. How does it look if you don't assume anything about his intentions?
Glad you can see my point.
I said he wasn't important to the struggle between his sons, not to the naruto universe. As for the seals, how do you know Hagoromo didn't give Hamura the moon seal as well, because he wasn't strong enough to do seal the juubi on his own? After all, CT is a Rinnegan tech, and Hamura certainly didn't have that.
Perhaps, but I think we all know this whole cycle of hatred is going to end with Naruto and Sasuke, or this entire manga ends pointlessly. No need to go beyond power to both Ashura & Indria
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Tendou Pain
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there are a couple of dots i can't connect regarding hagoromo, not knowing BZ altered the tablets when he watched his transmigrants move on forward in time is a bit unbelievable... He should've noticed something being different otherwise it would make the sage look like an amateur. what's the deal with these sealing tools of him and what happened to hamura and the connection of the hyuga and uzumaki with the leaf. I'm sure about suppressing the Juubi being done by hagoromo and the sealing being done by hamura
Scooby Doo
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Anyway, I see absolutely no point in making the Sage a bad guy. What good would that do to the plot? Naruto will fight Sasuke and they'll exhaust themselves. Then who the hell would stop Hagoromo? Plot-wise, it makes perfect sense that the manga is ending with Naruto vs Sasuke. I say if the Sage was surprised and panicked, that would be out of the wise man character. You take your inspiration from that taoist thread- I also made my theory based on Chinese myth and still reached a different conclusion. Naruto is not just based on one mythology, and then again, the influence of a culture doesn't mean Kishi can't have his own story and he will follow everything as in the myth. Also, the Sage made clear that he has no intentions of staying. He will soon disappear- and that's when Sasuke made his claim. If the Sage was not surprised, it's also because of his talk with Sasuke. He may have figured his true intentions- if Sasuke didn't tell him openly anyway.
If anything, he is just proof that noone is perfect and it's hard to reach the state of true sagehood. It's not like he named himself the Sage of Six Paths. He also had the power back then to rule the world, but he preached ninshuu instead. Why would he get corrupted now?" Because he realized his ninshuu failed". Not yet. Naruto still can make a difference. The Sage has never shown intentions of trying to take over the world. So drawing conclusions from his name and what would it mean in taoism, is fictional at best. Nice theory but we can drop it now.
If anything, he is just proof that noone is perfect and it's hard to reach the state of true sagehood. It's not like he named himself the Sage of Six Paths. He also had the power back then to rule the world, but he preached ninshuu instead. Why would he get corrupted now?" Because he realized his ninshuu failed". Not yet. Naruto still can make a difference. The Sage has never shown intentions of trying to take over the world. So drawing conclusions from his name and what would it mean in taoism, is fictional at best. Nice theory but we can drop it now.
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ministerC4
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It's already been shown his facial expressions don't match his words.
The expression mark in what he said is enough proof he cared.
The expression mark in what he said is enough proof he cared.
Well you say that he knew about Kakashi's leaderhip and stuff like this but the truth is that we can't know for sure what is the extent of this ability.
It's not like I'm changing the facts so they can fit my theory. I'm just having a scenario. Right now I can't back up anything with strong evidence, so I set this condition to explain why it would be possible to react like this if I'm correct.
As you said CT is a rinnegan technique but can say that by using the seals alone, it can bring the same result? So maybe he didn't have a chance in the first place.
Also, another way to prove you that Hagoromo is indeed a character to create suspicion is Tendou's Pain first argument. Let's accept as you said that Hagoromo aqcuired the ability of seeing the real world by being in the pure plane. Then why, when he was talking to Naruto, he didn't mention BZ when he brought up uchiha's table subject. Now you may say that his ability was only about his sons' transmigrants but the truth is that people like Kakashi and Obito weren't directly connected to the current transmigrants and yet he knew them. Why can't the same happen with Black Zetsu? He did try to corrupt the transmigrants numerous times.
Well yeah sure but the point is to think as if not everything is based on plot. By this logic naruto will win Sasuke no matter what and so it would be a waste of time to discuss about it XD
Your first point is actually very good and I had thought of it as well. As for your rest of your points, I also wait for some explanation to see what's going on.
About sage I didn't mean that he would get suprised by Sasuke's reaction but at least slighty angry or annoyed to see his beasts, the ones he loved, caught, no exaggerations just a little something. Also, as for the Sage I'm not of the opinion that he would just become another Kaguya but rather that we would get to learn a dark side of his past about how he was ruling. About his disappearance, supposedly he should have disappeared back when he first appeared, the fact that he was able to manifest in real world -even if it was based on some logic- put me on thoughts.
Anyway, since you wrote a theory with a different conclusion, can you please link me to it?
Maybe.
I didn't say he knew, the sage said he knew. That's the point, I'm not reading into things. Hagoromo clearly stated he knew they won due to Kakashi's leadership. That's a fundamental difference between how arrive at my answers and how you arrive at yours.
What you're doing is ignoring facts that don't fit your theory, and exaggerating the significance of ones that do, which is no different than changing them.
Sorry, but this sentence made no sense to me. Are you asking why he didn't use the seals alone? Well the answer is he needed more power for a stronger CT. As we saw in this past chapter Sasuke proved it's possible to do a weaker version solo. The seal he used on the Bijuu isn't like the one Nagato used, it used the bijuu's as the core just like the CT that sealed Kaguya.
How does him not mentioning BZ make him suspicious? BZ was not his agent, he was Kaguya's. BZ wouldn't be necessary, all the sage would have to do is make the tablet read what it does now, instead of having BZ change it to entice uchiha.
As for reasons he didn't know, is he is not omniscient. If the tranmigrates themselves didn't know they were being manipulated, how would the sage? He knew about Kakashi and Obito from their many interactions with Naruto and Sasuke. Not to mention he could probably see Obito's actions after he became a juubi jin. Tendou Pain's argument's flaw is that he assumes the sage is supposed to be a god since he was likened to one, but in reality he's just a man with extra-ordinary power. He's not beyond faults or looking like "an amateur"... whatever that means. I mean what is Hagoromo supposed to be pro at? As far a I know he's the only one with this ability, so that's pretty pro to me.
It is a waist of time to discuss whether Naruto or Sasuke will win. The interesting part of the fight will be how Naruto arrives at his eventual victory. Sometimes the journey is far more interesting than the destination.
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1st point: I just didn't want to get into too many details like "you said that he said" but I see what you're meaning.
2nd point: I don't change the facts in such a way. What I'm doing is to try and write a revolutionary theory in a sense that it opposes most of what it was shown so far in manga. For that reason, no matter how I was trying to proceed I would always end up "ignoring" facts. It's like me trying to prove that Itachi was a bad guy before his battle with Sasuke has occured. How am I supposed to do that without "ignoring" manga facts that were proving otherwise?
3rd point: The way you wrote that about CT was as if you were implying that if Hagoromo had given his seal to Hamura, then the latter would be able to use CT even without rinnegan just because he had the 2 seals, that's what I understood at least.
4th point: I guess it makes sense what you're saying but I'm confused as far as Hagoromo's ability to keep an eye on his transmigrates goes.
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